Got RGB...Don't notice much of a difference

[gwaine]

Hello everyone...I purchased a Sony PVM 2530 and got RGB cables for all RGB compatible systems through Matthew. I have to say that I find RGB to be underwhelming. It is indeed a nice picture (so far I've tested it on my Genesis 1 and Saturn) but I have to say that to my eyes it's not that noticeable of a difference between that and Composite (the yellow plug on an RCA cable). Now I haven't switched back to composite since I've started using RGB, and maybe I can tell a difference then. I'm not saying there's not a difference, I'm just saying that it's not very noticeable and for me at least probably not worth the money. I know Anthony1 likes RGB a lot...would anyone else care to voice their opinion?

[omnedon]

I see a big jump going from composite to S-video. Sharpness and clarity, less colour bleed. RGB should be an even more noticeable jump.

[tritium]

I saw an improvement in bleeding using S-Video instead of Composite. I used a dreamcast to test the theory. I would assume that on a system with such a low resolution such as a Genesis, it wouldn't really matter. The blurring may actually make it nicer to look at.

-Tritium

[gwaine]

That's a good point...I may not be using a system using a high enough resolution to really notice a difference.

[Speedy]

I use RGB for most of my consoles, and i must say for the consoles you name i do not see the difference also. But when i plug in my DC, PS2 and Cube (that one for sure, with orginal RGB cable :-P ) view becomes much sharper and clearer.

[Flack]

Somewhere, Anthony1's head just exploded.

[HC Andersson]

After Sonic the Hedgehog had just came out I tried an RGB on the Mega Drive and didn't notice any big differences... until after we switched back to the composite cable again!
Boy it did hur to watch the screen without RGB. Lots of smeared colors all over the screen, it was very unsharp to say atleast.

[Ed Oscuro]

I get an awesome picture with my Genesis 2 on a 33 inch set using A/V. S-Video really had an impact on the Game Boy Player over A/V, but on the Genesis I don't feel there isn't much reason for it. I'm not sure why, either, because the Genesis has a larger screen than the GBP...hmm.

[gwaine]

LOL Flack :)

[Sylentwulf]

Somewhere, Anthony1's head just exploded.
LOL

Less static from RF to composite
Crisper/Cleaner from composite to s-video
Much better esolution from s-video to component (IF it's in real high def. Game and TV)

Haven't tried RGB, don't really care to.

[SoulBlazer]

Forget cables -- we need more games with native support for widescreen and HD TV's!

Star Ocean 3 has it, and the game looks SO DAMN SWEET. :eek 2:

[Ed Oscuro]

Forget cables -- Bring back the Sega Telecon Pack!
LOL (! (http://nfg.2y.net/sales/html/EpZFpuEFuAQrmxZqAf.html))

[SoulBlazer]

Wha? O_O

[Ed Oscuro]

You know you, um, want it.

[Anthony1]

Hello everyone...I purchased a Sony PVM 2530 and got RGB cables for all RGB compatible systems through Matthew. I have to say that I find RGB to be underwhelming. It is indeed a nice picture (so far I've tested it on my Genesis 1 and Saturn) but I have to say that to my eyes it's not that noticeable of a difference between that and Composite (the yellow plug on an RCA cable). Now I haven't switched back to composite since I've started using RGB, and maybe I can tell a difference then. I'm not saying there's not a difference, I'm just saying that it's not very noticeable and for me at least probably not worth the money. I know Anthony1 likes RGB a lot...would anyone else care to voice their opinion?


Are you sure that you are viewing the RGB signal?

You were able to get the 25 pin RGB cable from Matthew? You do have it plugged in correctly? Are you sure you have the picture and brightness controls dialed in properly? You want to turn the picture control up kinda high. The brightness shouldn't be too high.

Maybe something is wrong with your PVM.


I was just playing Batman Returns for the Sega CD last night on my Sony PVM-2530, and the picture was absolutely fantastic. The colors were just bursting off the screen.

A great game to try in RGB on the Genesis is Jurassic Park. That game looks like crap on my TV, but in RGB it actually looks good. You see alot more details in the backgrounds. Sonic 3 is a really good game to try.

For the Saturn try a game like Astal. The detail and color should just be ridiculous.

If you have a TG-16, then send it to matthew so he can do the RGB mod. When you see Bonk's Adventure in RGB you will be amazed.

On the SNES, try Super Ghouls and Ghosts or Zelda.


Something must be wrong with something, because you should be overwhelmed by the picture, it should be dramatically clearer than what you've seen before.

[themessage]

That sucks man, I'm sure if you focused on certain sections of the screen you could tell the difference. I personally notice a huge quality jump. I never play in anything under S-video with 16-bit+, it hurts ;/. But then again, some people don't really examine the picture as much as I do.

You don't gain much going from S-Video to RGB/Component(component having better black/white signals).

Someday I'll invest in an RGB to Component transcoder and hook it up to a decent size tv instead of these tiny 30" RGB tubes.

[BenT]

I would assume that on a system with such a low resolution such as a Genesis, it wouldn't really matter. The blurring may actually make it nicer to look at.Nope, that's wrong (to be blunt). There's no reason a 320x224 image (or whatever the low-res system of your choice displays at) can't be rendered in razor-sharp glory. There's no way I'd want blurring. (The Genesis happens to have a very strong RGB signal, btw.)

I think there's a tendency for RGB fans to overstate how awesome the jump in picture quality is, so then more casual types try it, don't notice THAT big of a change, and think the claims are overblown. I've seen it happen before. That said, I have to agree that RGB blows away Composite -- no frickin' contest. The correction of Composite's awful dot-crawl artifacts alone ensures this, not to mention the superior color fidelity. If you can't see a big difference between the two then something is screwy.

The different between RGB and S-Video is more subtle, but definitely noticeable to me.

[davidleeroth]

Some people care, some don't. I definitely notice it, be it Master System, Genesis or PS2.
Some of my friends call me a nutter for always craving for RGB but what about it? I call them nuts for buying that new phone which does dis n' that. I ain't buying a new one until mine brakes, no matter what they say.

Anyways, here's some before-after photos I took after I modded my N64 for RGB (3MB):

http://www.students.tut.fi/~tiainen2/rgb.html

It very hard to take photo from game and it doesn't really show the how RGB eliminates the wavy pixel edges as there's no movement but I think they came up ok. Mainly taken from red parts since that's where the improvement is most noticeable. The N64 has had the biggest benefit from switching to RGB IMO but someday I might take photos from other consoles if anyone is interested.

EDIT: the last one is actually from Saturn

[gwaine]

Anthony,
I did indeed get the cables from Matthew...great guy. I've got the 25 pin cable plugged in the back of the PVM and I've got different attachments for all my systems like you suggested. What kind of settings are you using on the PVM? Maybe there's some setting I need to use or something. I don't know...I mean, it's a nice picture, just not a big difference like I was expecting. Tonight I'll switch back and forth between composite and RGB (I got that BNC adapter so I can run composite for the NES).
Thanks for your help!

[Anthony1]

Anthony,
I did indeed get the cables from Matthew...great guy. I've got the 25 pin cable plugged in the back of the PVM and I've got different attachments for all my systems like you suggested. What kind of settings are you using on the PVM? Maybe there's some setting I need to use or something. I don't know...I mean, it's a nice picture, just not a big difference like I was expecting. Tonight I'll switch back and forth between composite and RGB (I got that BNC adapter so I can run composite for the NES).
Thanks for your help!


The "Picture" setting is for contrast. Make sure that it isn't turned way down. You want to turn the contrast up as high as possible, without going to the point of having the picture "bloom". Also, make sure that the Brightness setting isn't turned up too high. Sometimes if the brightness is turned up to high, you don't get to really see the detail and all the colors as well. That's really pretty much it. Just brightness and contrast. You shouldn't have to mess with anything else.

Only other thing I can think of, is that maybe something is wrong with your PVM.

The Genesis gives a great RGB picture, so you should notice it right away. If you play a game that you've played over and over on a regular TV, and then you play that same game on a RGB monitor in RGB, you should notice the difference immediately. Do you remember the original Batman game for the Genesis? Well, when you are walking along the street in the early levels, there are some Don't Walk/Walk signs on the street. When you are playing it on a regular TV, the Don't Walk/Walk words are totally blurry and look like jibberish. But on a RGB monitor you can actually read it.

Also, remember that this Sony monitor that you have is a Professional Video Monitor, and when you plug something into it in Composite or S-Video, that will look outstanding as well. It will look better than any normal TV. For example, the best you can do with the 3DO is S-Video, and the 3DO definitely looks better on my PVM than anything else I have. The best you can do with the NES is composite. The NES looks better on my PVM than any other TV that I have.

But with systems that do actually output RGB, like TG-16, Genesis, Sega CD, 32X, Jaguar, Saturn, PSX, Nintendo 64, you really want to use the RGB cable if possible. Your picture will always be better.

[Anthony1]

The N64 has had the biggest benefit from switching to RGB IMO


really? You think the N64 is good in RGB?


Actually, of all the systems I've tried in RGB, I find that the N64 has the least impressive RGB signal of all of them. The N64 has a very weak RGB signal and it must be amplified, but even after amplification, it just doens't have that "Oh my God, look how clear and crisp this freaking picture is" quality that I normally get when seeing RGB for various systems.


Here is how I rank the systems that I've tried in RGB, in terms of impressiveness:


1. TurboGrafx-16 - The TG-16 can put alot of color on the screen. That's a given. And when you see that in RGB, it's pretty freaking amazing. I think the most beautiful RGB image that I have ever seen is on Bonk's Adventure, when you first go inside that Dinosaur in like level 2 or whatever. Just absolutely amazing color and detail. Plus it's just so cool to see an 8 bit system in RGB. If only you could also play the NES in RGB as well.

2. Super Nintendo - Super Nintendo games look pretty damn good on a regular TV in S-Video, but in RGB, certain games become masterpieces. Like Zelda. Play Zelda in RGB, and just marvel at all the detail in the landscapes and surrounding areas. Amazing. Super Ghouls and Ghosts is another SNES game that is absolutely fantastic in RGB.

3. Sony Playstation - Playing a game like Crash Bandicoot or Assult Rigs in RGB is pretty amazing. Alot of details and the incredible color and crispness really shine through. Some of the pixelly 3D games aren't very impressive, in fact sometimes the RGB monitor will show just how bad a game really looks. Sometimes a crappy TV can be forgiving. But the truly beautiful games on the Playstation are even more beautifull in RGB. Like Final Fantasy VII.

4. Atari Jaguar - Playing a game like Cybermorph or AVP or DOOM in RGB with the Jaguar is a very cool experience. The detail and crispness is pretty awesome.

5. Sega Saturn - Playing games like Astal or Panzer Dragoon in RGB is definitely a breathtaking sight to see. Of course, like the PSX, really pixelly 3D games can sometimes look worse. But all the great 2D stuff on the Saturn looks amazing in RGB.

6. Genesis, Sega CD, 32X - The downside to all of these systems is their limited on screen color. But RGB will at least let you see all those colors in their glory. A game like Jurassic Park for the Genesis, which normally looks pretty crappy on a regular TV, actually looks very good in RGB. And a game like Gunstar Heroes will make your eyes water in RGB.

7. Nintendo 64 - I was so excited to finally see the N64 in RGB, but I must say that to me it was a dissapointment. When I think of RGB, I think of incredible detail and crispness and clarity and color bursting all over the screen. But the N64 in RGB just didn't give me that. Sure it was clear and crisp, but still as blurry as ever. I think it's just how the video processor of the N64 was desinged. Even RGB couldn't help it.



Oh, I forgot to mention the PS2. There are lots and lots and lots of PS2 games that aren't progressive scan 480p. In fact I would guess that about 98 percent of PS2 games aren't 480p. So all of these games would look much better in RGB. What's cool is that you can use the same RGB cable for both the PS1 and the PS2. Try a game like Ico in RGB. Amazing.

[Steven J. Lumas]

You have to be very careful to put the correct color wire in the correct color hole, that's all. R=Raw Sienna, G=Goldenrod, and B=Bittersweet. If you get the colors mixed up your TV could literally melt!

[davidleeroth]

The N64 has had the biggest benefit from switching to RGB IMO

really? You think the N64 is good in RGB?


Well N64 is always going to be blurry but until you've seen a N64 on PAL composite you aren't entitled to use the word blurry. I compared US/PAL machines and switching from PAL to NTSC was like switching to RGB on any console.
If you check the link and take a look at Bangaioh and S&P comparisons (done in NTSC, of course), you can just imagine how crap the PAL output is. So what I'm actually referring to is switching from PAL composite to RGB. :P

[BenT]

Oh, I forgot to mention the PS2. There are lots and lots and lots of PS2 games that aren't progressive scan 480p. In fact I would guess that about 98 percent of PS2 games aren't 480p. So all of these games would look much better in RGB. What's cool is that you can use the same RGB cable for both the PS1 and the PS2. Try a game like Ico in RGB. Amazing.
Why would PS2 RGB be much better than Component? I don't think it is.

[Anthony1]

Oh, I forgot to mention the PS2. There are lots and lots and lots of PS2 games that aren't progressive scan 480p. In fact I would guess that about 98 percent of PS2 games aren't 480p. So all of these games would look much better in RGB. What's cool is that you can use the same RGB cable for both the PS1 and the PS2. Try a game like Ico in RGB. Amazing.
Why would PS2 RGB be much better than Component? I don't think it is.


true analog RGB is superior to component (480i)


The only thing that goes beyond analog RGB, is when you go to a progressive scan signal. A 480p signal is superior to analog RGB, but in the world of interlaced signals, analog RGB is the best you can get.

If you have a Dreamcast, go with 480p when possible, if you have a XBOX go 480p or better, if you have a GameCube, you can go 480p for the progressive games and you can go RGB for the non progressive games. Same thing with PS2. RGB for all the non progressive games is best. Otherwise go with 480p.

[gwaine]

UPDATE:
So I came home and, using the same TV/Monitor, I plugged my Genesis in with good old RCA cables (composite). Wow! It's ugly!!! I tried it using Ghouls 'n Ghosts and the text is so much less clear...it really IS a big difference. I plugged back in using the RGB cables. All the graphics are much sharper, much less bleeding and murkiness to colors. The text is very legible even up close. I would have to say my opinion has changed 100%. My problem was that I didn't bother comparing the two...you don't realize how good you've got it until you go back to composite...I would recommend RGB to any enthusiast. I'm using a Sony PVM 2530 and custom cables made by Matthew...for $75 bucks I got a 12' cable with attachments for 5 systems (Genesis, Saturn, SNES, Dreamcast, PSX). He's great to deal with. I got the monitor on eBay for $150, but shipping cost $75.

[omnedon]

:D

I noticed the same thiong once I started using S-video. Composite all of a sudden looked crappy.

One day, I'll go RGB. Fopr now, I want all game systems on the good TV, and it can't do RGB. One day. 8-)

[Ed Oscuro]

You have to be very careful to put the correct color wire in the correct color hole, that's all. R=Raw Sienna, G=Goldenrod, and B=Bittersweet. If you get the colors mixed up your TV could literally melt!
The return of SJL! LOL

Anyhow, I see plenty of discussion of Composite versus RGB...but that's basically no contest! I have a feeling that S-Video vs. RGB is a much closer match than is being let on here.

[The Manimal]

with a good comb filter, how about composite?

[Anthony1]

UPDATE:
So I came home and, using the same TV/Monitor, I plugged my Genesis in with good old RCA cables (composite). Wow! It's ugly!!! I tried it using Ghouls 'n Ghosts and the text is so much less clear...it really IS a big difference. I plugged back in using the RGB cables. All the graphics are much sharper, much less bleeding and murkiness to colors. The text is very legible even up close. I would have to say my opinion has changed 100%. My problem was that I didn't bother comparing the two...you don't realize how good you've got it until you go back to composite...I would recommend RGB to any enthusiast. I'm using a Sony PVM 2530 and custom cables made by Matthew...for $75 bucks I got a 12' cable with attachments for 5 systems (Genesis, Saturn, SNES, Dreamcast, PSX). He's great to deal with. I got the monitor on eBay for $150, but shipping cost $75.


Wow, this is really cool. All my RGB posts have paid off, because this guy will now be enjoying what I've been enjoying for so long. The PVM 2530 is an awesome monitor. $75 shipping is actually pretty low for such a heavy ass monitor. $225 total really isn't that bad if you get one that is working and totally functional. These monitors sold for thousands of dollars back in the day. They were used in Production studios and television stations broadcasting centers. But now with the move to Digital and HDTV, nobody cares about these old analog professional monitors, and you can get them for ridiculous steals. That monitor that you have is one fine RGB monitor. And it's damn good with S-Video and Composite too. Not only will that be the best monitor for displaying all your RGB capable systems, but it will also be the best for displaying the NES, as well as the 3DO. Because the image from composite and S-Video is outstanding as well. Of course RGB is definitely the way to go, and I strongly urge you to send your TG-16 to Matthew to have him mod it for RGB. If you have a Atari Jaguar, you definitely want to get the cable for that. Also, you can use your PS1 cable with the PS2 if you have one. If you have a N64, you might want to send that along with the TG-16, and have him mod that for RGB too. If you have a Neo Geo of any type, you will also definitely want to get the RGB cable for that.

Basically anything that outputs RGB, if you have that system, then get the cable for that too. For the 32X, you need a Genesis 2 rgb cable.

[omnedon]

Quick question Anthony1.

How does RGB from the native console, compare to the Xbox emulation in component for the same console?

I'm under the impression that the component on the Xbox emulation sent you down this road. IMO emulation is good, but is consistently inferior to the real thing, by varying degress.

How does it compare in your opinion?

[Anthony1]

Quick question Anthony1.

How does RGB from the native console, compare to the Xbox emulation in component for the same console?

I'm under the impression that the component on the Xbox emulation sent you down this road. IMO emulation is good, but is consistently inferior to the real thing, by varying degress.

How does it compare in your opinion?


Ah, interesting question. Yes emulation on the XBOX has brought up some interesting issues in comparison to RGB and various video signals from the older consoles.

Now, if you have a HDTV that can natively display a 720P signal (which most of them don't), then the Genesis emulator with all the right settings turned on in the options, can come DAMN close to RGB quality. I'm talking DAMN CLOSE.

But still, not quite as good. But for the non RGB enthusiast, then it would probably be close enough to be satisfied. In fact, if there was some way to use a "real" Genesis control pad on the XBOX, I might be willing to stop using my physical Genesis and 32X and Sega CD, and just roll with the emulator on my XBOX. The quality of the signal is that good.

It's that close to RGB.

But you need to go into the option menu and select 720p, you need to resize the screen. You need to turn on the XBOX trilinear filtering, and you need to turn on the Super Scale 2x rendering mode.

If you do all of that, and you have a good HDTV that actually displays 720p, then it really is very, very close.

If your TV will only "natively" display 1080i (which is what most of them do), then you want to set it to 1080i mode, with all the other settings that I descirbed. It's not quite as good as 720p, but it's damn close.

Now in regards to SNES emulation on the XBOX hooked up to a HDTV, the results are good, but it isn't very close to RGB. Nowhere near as close as the Genesis emulation is anyways.

On a side note, although the NES can't do RGB, so it's not a comparison to RGB, I find that the NES in 720p with all the right settings turned on, looks and sounds fantastic. So good in fact, that I got rid of all my NES stuff as a result.

When you see Contra in 720p with Trilinear filtering on and SuperScale 2X mode, it really is the best NES picture that you can get.

[BenT]

Re: Xbox stuffs

I would never want to see NES / Genesis / any low-res system without scanlines. Ick.