I HATE games that do this! (RPG rant)

[SoulBlazer]

(blowing off steam with this note)

AUGH! Why do GREAT games have to be marred by STUPID gameplay decisions?!?!?

I imagine this note will only be intrest to my fellow serious RPG's, but please read anyway. :)

As most of you know, I love RPG's. One of my favorite kinds of games to play. I've played defeated over a hundred in the last twenty five years, and played numerous more. I've been playing them since Ultima and Bards Tales for the PC and Dragon Warrior and Final Fantasy for the consoles. And as technology has allowed the games to get more deeper, more intense, more story and chracter driven, good enough to rival books and movies, it's just increased my love for them.

But there are some games that just make you slap your head and go 'WHY?'

I discovered one of those today, and it's for a game I got about three weeks ago and have been loving since I got it -- Star Ocean 3, AKA Till the Ends of Time.

It's a great game, truly, and a lot of fun, and I have'nt had any serious problems with the game difficulty as I've gone through it. Sure, I've died a few times, but that's fine -- I like games where you can do that once in a while (Final Fantasy, as much as I love ya, I'm looking at you here. ;) ) I've fought all the enemies I can get my hands on as I've worked through the games dungeons and ruins, developed a favorite three but kept everyone at bare min levels, and spent money carefully.

So I've got about 50 hours of game time invested in this sucker, and as I'm aproaching what I think is the end of the game, I've been noticing the monsters and boss fights have not only been increasing in number but also getting WAY harder. Good RPG's have a curve where if X is the average level of your party and Y is the monster you are fighting then Z is your chance of success, and Z should stay constant -- in other words, the monsters and the party level up at about the same time. I was noticing this was getting out of whack as the fights got harder.

I've allready had to spend some time in two areas of the game working on my charcters levels, and I HATE to do that. I much prefer games where, as long as you fight every chance you get as you go through the game, you don't need to spend extra time leveling your people just to get through a big ass boss fight at the end to win (Phantasy Star 2, you're my poster boy for this example!) Sure, I had to do it some for this game, but I did it some for Star Ocean 2 as well (just ignored the extra dungeons and what not), and it really helped to bring in the money and level up newcomers to my party.

But I'm worried enough about how tough the fights are getting, and wondering just how much is left, that I pull down my Star Ocean 3 guide from Brady Games. It's written by Elizabeth Hollinger, a vetern of the game guide biz, and one of my favorite authors. Her stuff is RIGHT on the mark 99 percent of the time. So I check the walkthrough real quick to see what it has to say about the last areas.

Turns out that once I finish the area that I'm in (the Mosul Ruins) there ARE indeed only two areas left -- the Firewall and the Spiral Tower. And I see a warning note that you better be prepared before you enter those areas, blah blah blah. But I notice what she suggests that at LEAST your primary three fighting characters be as far as levels go -- 70-75.

:eek 2:

I check my game and sure enough, my main three are only around 58-63, with the others in the 50-40 range.

x_x

DAMN IT TO HELL! No WONDER I felt like the game had gotten a lot harder suddenly in this area and the last one. And I believed the book in knowing that if I tried to push on, I doubt I'd be able to REACH the final boss, much less beat it.

So now I gotta spend another 10 hours or so finding some area in the game with good enemies that I can kill for experience, and do this over and over and over and over again, just so I can finish the game? BORRING! And totally UNCALLED for in today's games. If I wanted to challenge the game's optional dungeons and bonus areas, sure, I can see that needing high levels, but I just want to finish this great game and move on to something else!

Now it's going to take at least three or four more days of my gaming time doing nothing else but trying to level up my party. It TOTALLY kills the fun I was having with the game, and reduces it to a borring dungeon crawler one would expect to play in the late 80's.

-_-

Oh well. I see on GameFAQ's that they have a couple of saves of the game at the Spiral Tower. Although they are marked as Game Clear, I think I may hook up my DexDrive, download them to my second memory card, and see how they are. I hate cheating like this, but it's better then stomaching the thought of having to spend a borring 10 gaming hours.

Game balance, people! Game balance! I highly doubt anyone else who has beaten this game and done the same things I did (fought every chance you got as you went through the game, leveled up in a couple of areas like the Moonbase and Sealed Ruins) did not need to spend a few borring days just getting ready for one last fight to finish the game. You want to make some stuff optional and require high levels? Fine, but don't force it on those of us who are having a grand time with your RPG and would like to finish it properly! :angry:

Anyone else know what I'm talking about? :D

[XxMe2NiKxX]

Rush rush... if you want to be good at something, you have to work at it. Don't think it's necessary? Don't finish the game.

[Funkenstein]

I think getting you ass handed to you by boss battles is pretty much a trademark of the Star Ocean series. I don't think I even made it halfway through The Second Story and the guy I sold my copy to leveled his characters up over 100 and he still couldn't beat the end boss.

That's why I like the Lunars on the SCD. There was a literal formula that decided the levels of the boss depending on your character levels. That way there was no need to power level, and the game was a constant challenge without being impossibly hard or insultingly easy.

[suppafly]

That why you should use game shark or other cheating devices.....specially for people who likes RPGS and dont have HOURS and HOURS to play them..

I usually use the codes that allow 2X experience points....it makes things a little faster, and doesnt make the game TOO easy.

[Mr. Smashy]

Why aren't all games made exactly the way I expect them to be or at least made in a way that occupies my time with guaranteed happiness and product satisfaction? Also, regardless of the game's challenge or whether or not I've even played it yet, I'll be sure to buy the strategy guide and bookmark the walkthrough listing on GameFAQs and use them at every opportunity. With the use of "game enhancing" hardware or software, I'll alter the program's code in my favor and complete a few hours of the game at which point, since I've earned it, I'll pull out the Dex Drive and jump right to the end of the game and dispatch the final enemy with ease.

All in a day's work for a serious RPG(er).

[hezeuschrist]

I figure if the game isn't well balanced enough for me to be able to find a moderate challenge without ever having to take time to specifically level up, then it's really not worth me finishing the game. I'm archaic like that though, so i will anyways, but it instantly destroys all hopes the game may have had to garner praise from me.

I really enjoy playing through an RPG, dying a few times on some tough bosses, and having an epic end boss battle that's tough as nails, but just barely managable. The first Golden Sun was like this (haven't played the second one yet), the boss battle was a thorough beating and I beat it with one character left alive. Same with FFIX.

[Aussie2B]

You can't play Star Ocean games like normal RPGs; they're not Final Fantasy. Leveling up in order to deal with harder enemies is a waste of time. Just play through the game normally, gaining levels normally, and if you find things too hard, work on something else. Improve your weapons and armor via Item Creation, build your skills, adjust you equipment and move/spell settings, form a more useful party, or just plain improve your playing skills and strategies.

If you have Nel, use her. She's got this one purple boomerang move that'll make the game A LOT easier. I think it's called "Flying Guillotine" or something like that in the US version, if I remember correctly. And speaking of that move, MP damage in general is the way to go. Have you focused on doing MP damage at all? Enemies tend to have a lot less MP than HP, so take advantage of that. Nel and Arbel are great for MP damage, but Fate and others are pretty decent at it too.

[FlufflePuff]

I may be bucking the trend here, but as an old-school RPGer, I enjoy games where I have to spend mindless hours levelling up. Dragon Warrior, Final Fantasy, Crystalis all require you to make levels to have a hope and a prayer. I get to zone out, kill stuff, and let off some steam. Then try to beat a boss. If I do, great for me. If I don't, more killing. I actually dislike the formulaic crap in Final Fantasy X. I felt like I was being herded along, fighting just the enemies they tossed at me. The only time I had to actually spend any time levelling up was before the second Seymour battle. I dislike this. Character building, getting new abilities, getting cool equipment is what RPGs are all about. If you don't level, you don't build a character. You just follow the formula they set out for you. That to me isn't an RPG, it's a drama movie in game form. Lame.

[SoulBlazer]

Glad to see a few responses to something that I thought was a hopeless rant. ;)

I found out the saves on GameFAQ are in MAX Drive format, and did not work with my SharkPort 2. So I took a little trip out to EB and found ONE MAX Drive left, which I promptly bought. I have'nt had a chance to test the saves, though, as my roommates are watching a movie on my gaming TV. :D

I normaly hate to cheat. That's why I never got a GameShark or anything. Yes, I DID use a Game Genie for my NES when I was a kid, but it was given to me as a gift and I tended to just fool around with it. But I don't mind using someone else's save that is at the same point but just has a stronger party. After all, all that person did was save me some time, time I'd rather use for gaming then pointless leveling up.

And it's funny -- I did'nt have to level up much at all with Star Ocean 2. And I DID beat the final boss after a tough battle. ;) But hezeuschrist is correct -- Golden Sun and FF9 are PERFECT examples of what I was talking about. Those are games you can just play through, fight all normal enemies but don't need to spend time leveling up, and defeat the final boss after a tough but fair fight on your first or second go.

And yes, I DO wish more games had the 'literal' leveling up system that the Lunars (and FF8, for that matter) have. Then levels don't really become important, and you can just focus on the game play.

Aussie, we're probaly better off talking about this in PM's. :P I forgot that you've played the Japanese version. I have'nt done much with Item Creation yet, but I intend to. I was just hoping to be able to go back into 4D space cause I forgot to grab that hammer in the house to boost my Blacksmith skill by 20 points. And I need to go recruit more inventors. But yes, my main three I've used most of the game is Fayt, Cliff, and Nel. And I'm not sure who you mean by Arbel -- do you mean the strange guy who is Clair's father who joins so late in the game as to be useless? ;) Or the arrogant evil swordsman? I chose not to take him or the little boy.

[Ed Oscuro]

So much for Nel...I spent hours trying to level up NEI in the underwater area ROFL

[SoulBlazer]

Well, had a chance to check out my downloaded saves. It's plain to see the person had used either a Game Shark or a Action Pro Replay to cheat on the game -- all charcters are maxed out in levels, loaded with items, and skill points. But it's great for speed runs, picking up battle trophies (only got 25% myself, and I need 55% for the sound test room! x_x ), and -- the reason I downloaded them and bought the MAX Drive -- beating the game. ;)

Side note -- this MAX Drive is ONE handy looking device. It's just like one of those USB HD Pen devices. It plugs into a USB slot in your computer and you can download saves onto it or transfer saves to and fro your hard drive. Then you plug it into your PS2 and it reads like a memory card. It has 16 MB of space -- that's TWO memory cards, folks! -- can compress saves to save space (the online ones are compressed), works with the Action Pro Replay, and can even display film recorded on a EyeToy!

Anyway, one of the non-cleared saves is just about at the same point where I had stopped on my own savs -- only need to replay a little. I'll save my own saves in case I want to work on them later. Actually, I think I'll try to get the last save point in the game using my saves. Then switch over to one of the final ones so I can finish the game. If that fails, I'll just use this save. The only thing that could be done is only Fayt's weapon is improved and hardly any inventors are recruited. But at Level 255 and 65,000 plus hit points, I don't think it matters. LOL

After all, I'm not cheating much -- just saving myself a lot of time I would spend on mindless leveling up, that's all. :)

[Daria]

Your rant sounds like me trying to play Final Fantasy 9. :/

Hell this could have been an exact quote from my rant at the time:
I much prefer games where, as long as you fight every chance you get as you go through the game, you don't need to spend extra time leveling your people just to get through a big ass boss fight at the end to win.

But you know what as annoying as it is now, and as much as you want to scream "Fuck you Mr. Video game! Fuck You!" you'll slave through it to the end and then you'll fondly remember the aspects about the game that made going through hell worth it.

-or you'll quit now and bury the game under a stack of kinder, gentiler RPGs.

And Aussie's right. This isn't FF9 we're talking about here, it's Star Ocean. You can't ignore the skills the item creation (I'm pretty sure that's how I fucked myself over in SO2 actually, by selling all the good item creation ingrediants when I had them. Dumb! Dumb! Dumb!). Talk to her. Shes knows her shit.

[Nez]

I for one like the challange of being low lvl against something much more powerfull. Most RPGs I've beaten at around lvl 55

Beating Disgaea with lvl 55 Laharl = a good time for me.
Or beating the final boss in shadow hearts in 5 turns. With no charictors above lvl 55.

I enjoy the intensity of wining high lvl battles with well gimps.

Not trying to be elitest but I dont understand power leveling. Just another form of cheating if you ask me.

[Sylentwulf]

I'm glad to hear star ocean three MIGHT actually give me a challenge. The last game I had to purposefully go out and level my characters up was DW7 and that was only for about 30 minutes one time. Before that, I can't even remember the last time I had to TRY and level a character because I was actually <GASP> DYING.

[El CiF]

ya know, i dont really mind having to go out and level my characters for 10 plus hours. it feels really rewarding to me when i can go back to the area where i was getting my ass kicked and kick some ass myself. i also always like to compare my characters to the levels they were before, like how much hp they have now and how much dmg they did before. maybe im just weird 8-)

[tritium]

I stopped playing FFX about 80% through the game. I didnt lvl up enough to get past a boss, or go back to buy more supplies. I was stuck at a save point in the middle of nowhere.

-Tritium

[Sylentwulf]

I stopped playing FFX about 80% through the game. I didnt lvl up enough to get past a boss, or go back to buy more supplies. I was stuck at a save point in the middle of nowhere.

-Tritium

Not possible as far as I know.

[calthaer]

One big reason why Japanese RPGs leave me cold most of the time. Now the new Elder Scrolls game (Oblivion), on the other hand, looks like it will = the biggity bomb. 1000 NPCs all operating on a 24/7 schedule? That is intense.

[Lord Contaminous]

Don't you hate it when your friends kill off a RPG that you once liked so much, and then you think you're falling behind them in beating the latest RPGs? The types that like to spend 3 weeks in one spot turning them into cold, calculating killing machines. They did that shit to me in Final Fantasy Tactics. They started a new game, stayed in the Sweegy Woods for 3 weeks just to master ALL the current party members' jobs and from that point on, the rest of the game was cookies and cake for them! It's crazy. They were so powerful they didn't even have to recruit more people.

[tritium]

Sylentwulf


Not possible as far as I know.


After the plains where ur supposed to collect monsters. If you decide u dont want to spend 2 hours killing stuff and head up the mountain. After Kimari's fight, and you head the Seymore, the last save point before seymore is where I got stuck. I didnt have enough supplies to handle hte monsters going back, and didn't have neough strength in characters to defeat seymore.

-Tritium

[SoulBlazer]

Well, as I said, thanks to my new toy I got a save I can use to finish the game and save me countless hours of leveling up. :) So it's all good. (Actually, now I'm tempted to go get a Action Max Replay just to mess around with the ones I've finished..... :) )

See, FF9 I handled the same way as any other FF game -- they are the poster childs for just 'fight everything you come to, and you are fine' aproach. I only had to spend a little time leveling up in that one. And don't get me wrong, I enjoy leveling up, as long as it's in small doses or I'm advancing the story as I do it. LOL

Actually, this is MORE common with the PC RPG's. I had to level up quite a bit in Morrowind and Planescape: Torment and Gothic II. Another reason I stick to console RPG's for the most part. ;)

Oh, and that last post reminds me as to why I keep six or more saves of a RPG when I'm going through it. :P

[Sylentwulf]

After the plains where ur supposed to collect monsters. If you decide u dont want to spend 2 hours killing stuff and head up the mountain. After Kimari's fight, and you head the Seymore, the last save point before seymore is where I got stuck. I didnt have enough supplies to handle hte monsters going back, and didn't have neough strength in characters to defeat seymore.

-Tritium

Ahh, so you COULD have gone back, running away from monsters, etc... It's not that it wasn't POSSIBLE to go back.

I actually got stuck there for a bit too, he was the hardest fight in that game (not overly saying much)

I think I did end up hiking back down the mountain to get more supplies, running from baddies. There is a "lift" you can take which cuts the travel there and back by like two-thirds.

And yes, I always keep 2 saves when RPG'ing. RPG's where "you're fine/cakewalk as long as you fight everything on your way to the next spot" bore the living shit out of me.

[Lord Contaminous]

Hahah, I do that too.

When I play Final Fantasy 2j on my Famiclone, I save in all 4 slots just in case my Famiclone itself erases some data itself.

[Jorpho]

Ah, FF9. That was a memorable ending, although it's debatable whether or not wave after wave of Random Status Effects counts as a fair and reasonable tactic.

I am finding Tales of Phantasia to be quite unusual, as I am presently stuck trying to finish the last optional area of the game and my characters are nearly maxed out already, despite the fact that I spent no excessive amounts of time purposely levelling up. There's just enough reasonable incentive in this game to keep you backtracking. (Trying to get to the useful Ninja Village requires a trek through a high-experience area every time, for instance.)

And the very best solution I have found to the problem was The Spirit Engine (http://tse.natomic.com/), but that so beautifully eschews so many RPG conventions already.

[Overbite]

I beat the game at lvl 60. You don't HAVE to power level. Just get the inventors Maxwell and Misty Lear and invent you up some Orichalcum. The cost is around 5700 for one (if you're lucky enough to make it the first try), and you need at least three.

BTW, you need an ass load of money for this. But that's easy enough to get with the bonus gauge.

So get your best weapon for your favorite 3 characters and synth an orichalcum to them. Then refine the hell out of it. my attack was in the 5000s with Fayt, Nel, and Maria.

for more fun, get an atk+10 bangle or whatever and refine it so it's +30. Synth that to your orichalcum weapon for an even bigger boost.

Leveling will only get you so far. If you get to lvl 200 your attack (with best weapon) will only be in the 4000. Synthing orichalcum is a must.

but i see that you cheated so poo to you :angry:

[SoulBlazer]

Just for now -- I still have my save so I can do it again later. Have to, if I want to see the other endings. ;)

[Lord Contaminous]

Ah, FF9. That was a memorable ending, although it's debatable whether or not wave after wave of Random Status Effects counts as a fair and reasonable tactic

It shouldn't be debatable. Unanimously, putting you in every status ailment in the book at once is UNFAIR all the way. You can say the same thing for FF5 as well since Neo Exdeath (FF5) and Necron (FF9) both share the "Grand Cross" attack.

I nearly pushed my TV to the floor with those bosses. You work so hard to get everyone back on their feet with the Cures, Phoenix Downs and Life spells. Just when you're finished and ready to thrash him some more, he pulls that shit again and you're pretty much f***ed.

[-hellvin-]

Don't you hate it when your friends kill off a RPG that you once liked so much, and then you think you're falling behind them in beating the latest RPGs? The types that like to spend 3 weeks in one spot turning them into cold, calculating killing machines. They did that shit to me in Final Fantasy Tactics. They started a new game, stayed in the Sweegy Woods for 3 weeks just to master ALL the current party members' jobs and from that point on, the rest of the game was cookies and cake for them! It's crazy. They were so powerful they didn't even have to recruit more people.

That's why I loved that game so much. You could choose when you wanted to become mega powerful or just progress through the story line (which I thought was pretty surprsingly good). Once I had Ramza as a ninja with dual excaliburs (just a tad bit cheating there) the game was over. I think it's STILL bascially over once you get Thundergod Cid. He fucking breaks that game.

[Daria]

Ah, FF9. That was a memorable ending, although it's debatable whether or not wave after wave of Random Status Effects counts as a fair and reasonable tactic

It shouldn't be debatable. Unanimously, putting you in every status ailment in the book at once is UNFAIR all the way. You can say the same thing for FF5 as well since Neo Exdeath (FF5) and Necron (FF9) both share the "Grand Cross" attack.

I nearly pushed my TV to the floor with those bosses. You work so hard to get everyone back on their feet with the Cures, Phoenix Downs and Life spells. Just when you're finished and ready to thrash him some more, he pulls that shit again and you're pretty much f***ed.


Ugh... I hated those last two bosses. But I certainly felt I'd accomplished something when it was over... and the ending was well worth the trouble.

I can't proclaim to be any sort of Final Fantasy fan, but Final Fantasy 9 to me was nothing short of an experience from begining to end. Course at times it was hard to say whether the experience was a good one. ;)

In any case all this ff9 talk reminds me that I haven't snuggled with my Vivi plush tonight. :P

[Promophile]

Ah, FF9. That was a memorable ending, although it's debatable whether or not wave after wave of Random Status Effects counts as a fair and reasonable tactic

It shouldn't be debatable. Unanimously, putting you in every status ailment in the book at once is UNFAIR all the way. You can say the same thing for FF5 as well since Neo Exdeath (FF5) and Necron (FF9) both share the "Grand Cross" attack.

I nearly pushed my TV to the floor with those bosses. You work so hard to get everyone back on their feet with the Cures, Phoenix Downs and Life spells. Just when you're finished and ready to thrash him some more, he pulls that shit again and you're pretty much f***ed.


Ugh... I hated those last two bosses. But I certainly felt I'd accomplished something when it was over... and the ending was well worth the trouble.

I can't proclaim to be any sort of Final Fantasy fan, but Final Fantasy 9 to me was nothing short of an experience from begining to end. Course at times it was hard to say whether the experience was a good one. ;)

In any case all this ff9 talk reminds me that I haven't snuggled with my Vivi plush tonight. :P

I hate FF9 my absolute most hated RPG, for two reasons. The first is there is a TIME LIMIT to get the best weapon. Second is that STUPID IMPOSSIBLE jump-rope game. I never beat it, and I never played the game again...

[Daria]

Ah, FF9. That was a memorable ending, although it's debatable whether or not wave after wave of Random Status Effects counts as a fair and reasonable tactic

It shouldn't be debatable. Unanimously, putting you in every status ailment in the book at once is UNFAIR all the way. You can say the same thing for FF5 as well since Neo Exdeath (FF5) and Necron (FF9) both share the "Grand Cross" attack.

I nearly pushed my TV to the floor with those bosses. You work so hard to get everyone back on their feet with the Cures, Phoenix Downs and Life spells. Just when you're finished and ready to thrash him some more, he pulls that shit again and you're pretty much f***ed.


Ugh... I hated those last two bosses. But I certainly felt I'd accomplished something when it was over... and the ending was well worth the trouble.

I can't proclaim to be any sort of Final Fantasy fan, but Final Fantasy 9 to me was nothing short of an experience from begining to end. Course at times it was hard to say whether the experience was a good one. ;)

In any case all this ff9 talk reminds me that I haven't snuggled with my Vivi plush tonight. :P

I hate FF9 my absolute most hated RPG, for two reasons. The first is there is a TIME LIMIT to get the best weapon. Second is that STUPID IMPOSSIBLE jump-rope game. I never beat it, and I never played the game again...

Hah. I was actually quite good at the jump rope game.

*cracks her knuckles*

Ultimate weapons in any FF game are a pain in the ass, I don't even bother with half the secrets anymore. They just throw that shit in to sell strategy guides anyway.

[SoulBlazer]

Finished Star Ocean 3 last night -- wonky ending. x_x

Got the Fayt and Sophia ending, though, which was the one I wanted to anyway......

I still have all my FF9 saves on my HD -- moved there through my Interact device. Let me know if anyone wants them. :P

[Lord Contaminous]

Last night I imported Final Fantasy 1 and 2 Advance.

I'm still working on Final Fantasy X. I bought it on launch day back in 2k1, but I learned the sphere system too late and got my ass handed to me by later bosses.

So I started a clean slate. Can anyone give me a list of places throughout the whole game to rack up on mad mad moves to build up my sphere grid?

[Lord Contaminous]

bump

[slip81]

Maybe I'm strange, but if it's a really good RPG I don't mind spending hours doing nothing but leveling up to get past a certain point, depends on the game though. I also don't mind insanely hard end bosses because there is always a way to beat them. And to me it's very satisfying to spend like 6 hours leveling up, or getting some insanely powerfull spell or weapon and just completely obliterating the end boss.

If the games kinda sucks though to begin with, nothing will turn me off more than mindless leveling up.

[EnemyZero]

sorta like how ...final fantasy is a great series...and final fantasy tactics is an amazing game..and final fantasy tactics advance COULD BE AWESOME BUT DAMNIT WHEN I WANT TO BEAT THE CRAP OUT OF SOMEBODY I DONT WANNA BE FRIGGAN PENALIZED FOR USING A DAMN THUNDER SPELL OR I LOVE GETTING RED CARDS FOR USING THE FIGHT COMMAND.... :angry: :angry: :angry: :angry: :angry: :angry: :angry: :angry: :angry: :angry: :angry: :angry: :angry: