Manci Games reviews "Video Game Collector - #2" [Archive]

ManciGames

10-23-2004, 01:24 AM

Welcome back, my friends, to the show that never ends. This is the first time yours truly has sat back at his good 'ole MG desk to do a review since the unpublished (at least as of now) issue #3 of Manci Games. Alas, here we are.

I skipped out on reviewing VGC #1 for obvious reasons. I probably wouldn't have been as objective that close to the end of MG. Also, I wanted to give the title an issue or two to build before doing what us know-nothings do best: review.

That being said, I'm here to tell you guys (and gals), there's a lot to like with VGC. And like any publication, there's also some problems. Let's get to it...

General things that struck me about VGC were as follows: Great paper stock. It smells absolutely fabulous. I have sort of a fetish for good smelling paper, and this paper rates! On the downside, it's comic-book sized, which leads to a sort of fanzine-feel as you hold it in your hands. I'm hoping that the plan is to eventually expand this sucker into the proper magazine format because this mag deserves it.

Maybe the smaller size is used to disguise the fact that the covers for both 1 and 2 have been atrocious. This mag is aimed at newsstands and should have a newsstand look. Not so. It's virtually unreadable, and the name of the mag is almost undecipherable. Fix this pronto guys. You're target is the mass market. People like happy shiny covers, not this busy type of thing you've got going on now.

Open the page though, and it's like a different magazine. Mad props go out to the graphic designer of this mag. The page borders are awesome. Congrats on those. Some might say the rest of the layout is boring since it's really the same exact thing on each page, but it's simple, uncluttered (you seeing this, cover page?), and readable.

The overall feel of the editorial content is decidedly juvenile in some parts. This is quite surprising as, again, this mag is aimed at an older market. Let's nix references to "the worlds bitchin'-est arcade," and cut out any further Jar-Jar inspired "moolah" anecdotes. And while we're at it, get rid of some of the "oh look, I'm really cool" picture captions. With some of these captions, I had the distinct impression that they were supposed to be funny, but...they just weren't. Maybe they were just over my head?

I'll wrap up the general overview by mentioning that there are quite a few grammatical and typographical errors. Big picture wise, the editors need to learn what a comma should and should not be used for. Also, someone might want to look up the definition of "run on sentence," because it seems to have eluded their collective memories. Specifically, check out the review of "The Flintstones" for more than your fair share of typos, grammar errors and misprints. On the other hand, this is to be expected. It's only VGC's second issue, and it takes time for a mag to catch its groove and work out the bugs, especially when you've got a rookie EIC.

Okay, now let's talk specifics. I say, deep-six the "news" and spend the pages on meatier content. Nothing is really newsworthy enough for a print retro gaming mag. That's what the net is for.

The action figure article was a highlight of the mag. Well written, well edited, and well related. Good stuff here. I actually have one of the figures in the pictures, so I have a soft spot for this piece. My only criticism would be that it needed some quotes from a toy-maker or two. Get that next time, and pieces like this will rate a perfect 10. Bravo.

The game reviews ran the gamut from good to downright boring. Some of Meston's stuff read like an instruction manual. I'm glad I know what kinds of presents I can get in ToeJam & Earl, but is the game any fun to play? Without the rating (Great!) at the top of the page, I'd have no idea. There is no feeling or emotion in any of the Meston reviews. They are informative, to be sure...especially if I've lost my instruction manual. But I want more from my reviews. Enter Geoffrey Miller. He shined in Manci Games and shines once again in VGC. Easily the best writing in the mag. Here's an easy fix: Let Miller and a couple of other writers like him write more, and have the editors spend more time doing what they are supposed to be doing: editing. You've got a great thing going. Now take it up a notch.

Next up is the first of the Manci Games deja-vu sections. Nevermind the fact that some people discounted the Steve Woita cover story when it showed up on Issue #2 of Manci Games. I guess that although Mr. Woita's story isn't that great (according to "them"), his contributions a regular columnist is fine and dandy. Well, I couldn't agree more. Woita throws out an excellent piece that gets you into the mind of a game developer in a very personal way. Hopefully, this trend will continue and we'll see more great stuff like this in future issues.

Manci Games deja-vu #2: The "Made in Japan" section bears the same writer and premise as an old MG section, but the format is much different. Instead of focusing in on one game, we're treated to a potpourri of different imports. While this is a great way to educate the people on the various imports available, it made for some pretty scatter-brained reading. No meat. Trim the fat and give us more vitamins, fellas! This column can be good, but you've got to find its focus.

Manci Games deja-vu #3: The "Timeline" section casts previous MG contributor Leonard Herman in his best possible light. This guy is a virtual machine, and there's no better way to use a machine than to have it spit out data. Lenny is a walking encyclopedia of game information, and this bullet format, while dry, is quite entertaining and informative. Next time though, give the column a title or short intro. I had no idea what I was reading about until three bullets in.

The Collector's Spotlight is a great idea that VGC should get kudos for. These guys make the hobby. Let's let them get their picture and collection in a mag and give them their 15 minutes. While I don't think the mainstream audience VGC is going for is going to care about someone like good 'ole John Keys, most gamers will.

I'm a bit confused by the Twin Galaxies Scoreboard. I think there's probably about 200 people, tops, who will care about something like this. And maybe 10 of them will ever see this mag. Then again, maybe I'm crazy. Well, I'm crazy, but maybe I'm wrong...

Now Homebrew Haven is not what I expected. They admirably took the homebrew scene in a different direction than the standard MG set. Instead of featuring a game (or two...or three!), this issue featured an article on how to download a ROM and manufacture your own cart. This is fascinating stuff...but what about the games, man? Where's the designer spotlights? The homebrew reviews? Copy MG! I don't care! I just want to see what games are out there and how good they are.

The Market Watch section was really interesting. Maybe it's the accountant in me coming out, but I love reading up on what games are going up, what games are going down and which ones to stay away from. Great job on this section, fellas.

Manci Games deja-vu #4: The Price Guide is put together by none other than our own Joe Santulli and friends. I'm glad MG was able to give them two issues to sharpen their claws before they jumped into VGC.

Ahhhhh, the price-guide. In conversations I've had with the Shawn Jones, the publisher of VGC, I've come to realize that this is the meat of VGC. This is why VGC was meant to be published. Without a doubt, it's a work of art. Though the font is tiny, they actually were able to pull off a fairly comprehensive price guide that is easy to read, fun to look at and is informative. There's a reason the guide takes up over half the mag, and that reason is focus. If you want a great quarterly price-guide, this is your product.

The final section is entitled "The Last Quarter" and is written by David Ellis, a noted arcade game collector. This column was well written, fact-filled, and fun to read. Keep David around for awhile. And ask him where I can score a sit-down Star Wars Arcade game!

Well, that's it. The official Manci Games review of Issue #2 of VGC. And I thought I'd never review anything ever again! This was actually kind of fun. Maybe we'll invite Jamie Starr back for a romp, too?

'Till next time fellow gamers...

Ed Oscuro

10-23-2004, 01:38 AM

ManciGames

10-23-2004, 01:49 AM

...took the homebrew scene in a different direction than the standard MG set.

Copy MG! I don't care! I just want to see what games are out there and how good they are.
So MG was the "standard," you seem to be saying? I'm confused...it was here and gone very quickly, and this doesn't seem to be "breaking new ground" in my view. Reviews of homebrews...those were around a while before MG put a toe in the water.

Not dissing MG, but I think that's a rather wierd thing to say.

You're probably right. I'll retract that. Let's just say that it's different than what anyone else has done before.

That being said, is it a valid point? Is there anything related to VGC that you'd like to agree with or dispute?

Ed Oscuro

10-23-2004, 02:23 AM

Nope. Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to point out "arrogance," because you're a swell guy...just thought it'd be best for us all if that was cleared up in pretty simple terms. Rude, but I thought it might save some trouble with people looking at that and going "wtf?"

As for VGC...homebrews are something easy to track, same as you said with News. The DP email, for example, tracks News, and it's nice not to have to get a piece of paper in the mail to tell you what happened a week ago. That leaves us with the fun stuff - interviews is the biggest one, IMO, unless somebody wants to leave us some details on how they created the homebrew, the technical aspect - or the bare bones information.

It seems to me from the replies the game hacking book got that a lot of people do want to see this stuff in hardcopy form...so who knows? When VGC gets a higher readership they might be able to expand, you never know. It hasn't been very long at all since a "primer" article on some subject or other has gotten me looking at a console or game series, after all; and with their "create your own cartridge" bit they've got a perfect jumping off point into a more in-depth article about how a particular homebrew artist got their run produced, for example.

Promophile

10-23-2004, 02:26 AM

General things that struck me about VGC were as follows: Great paper stock. It smells absolutely fabulous. I have sort of a fetish for good smelling paper, and this paper rates! .

Oh tell me about it. I have one book, A dungeons and dragons monster manual from the early 90s, like 91 or so, that has the BEST paper smell I have ever smelled. Its just AMAZING. I wish I knew how it got the smell, I would order about 50 reams of that paper X_x .

punkoffgirl

10-23-2004, 02:27 AM

I've yet to read VGC, Jayson, but I have my doubts as to your motives for posting this "review," based on your past history with Zach, as witnessed in this very forum.

ManciGames

10-23-2004, 02:51 AM

Nope. Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to point out "arrogance," because you're a swell guy...just thought it'd be best for us all if that was cleared up in pretty simple terms. Rude, but I thought it might save some trouble with people looking at that and going "wtf?"

Ya know, I was actually thankful that you remarked on that in such a civil way. You are absolutely right that it sounded arrogant. Thanks.

It seems to me from the replies the game hacking book got that a lot of people do want to see this stuff in hardcopy form...so who knows? When VGC gets a higher readership they might be able to expand, you never know. It hasn't been very long at all since a "primer" article on some subject or other has gotten me looking at a console or game series, after all; and with their "create your own cartridge" bit they've got a perfect jumping off point into a more in-depth article about how a particular homebrew artist got their run produced, for example.

Right again, Ed. I've also been turned onto something from just a tiny bit of exposure in an article I didn't think would be interesting to read until I read it.

ManciGames

10-23-2004, 02:56 AM

I've yet to read VGC, Jayson, but I have my doubts as to your motives for posting this "review," based on your past history with Zach, as witnessed in this very forum.

Well, I guess you can take it how you want it. I think it's a pretty objective review... Zach has said many times that you only learn from criticism. Believe me, my criticism in this review is about as light as you're going to find when it comes to net-based reviews. I'm sure he has probably already noticed and/or addressed some of the things I mentioned.

Half the review is positive and half the review is constructive criticism. There's nothing sinister about it at all... I have no beef with Zach. That's not the purpose of this post. Please let sleeping dogs lie.

Now, let's get back to talking VGC. I want this mag to succeed. We need a retro gaming mag to make it and it's up to us to help them make it better.

DTJAAAAMJSLM

10-23-2004, 03:35 AM

When did you get the issue? I'm still waiting for mine to arrive. I loved the first one, so can't wait to take a look at this issue.

zmweasel

10-23-2004, 06:19 AM

I skipped out on reviewing VCG #1 for obvious reasons. I probably wouldn't have been as objective that close to the end of MG. Also, I wanted to give the title an issue or two to build before doing what us know-nothings do best: review.

You're not objective, Jaysen. As POG pointed out, considering our ass-ugly history in these forums, absolutely everything you have to say about VGC is biased. Your "review" is nothing but a transparent series of insults.

You speak of "having no beef," but you keep coming back to these forums again and again for no other reason than to keep our "feud" going. In fact, your last post before this thread was nearly three weeks ago, when you injected yourself into a thread where I had mentioned you in passing.

Move on, Jaysen. For your sanity and mine. And don't look to keep the "feud" going in this "review" thread, because this will be my only response to you.

-- Z.

ManciGames

10-23-2004, 09:23 AM

Move on, Jaysen. For your sanity and mine. And don't look to keep the "feud" going in this "review" thread, because this will be my only response to you.

-- Z.

Zach, I'm really not trying to continue any so-called feud. I haven't made a post for awhile because I'm not on the net as often as I used to be. As a matter of fact, I've had another post regarding game length and it's impact on gaming that has been brewing for quite some time. Hopefully, I'll get to it this weekend.

Now, regarding this thread: I made a series of well written, well thought out points. Some positive and some constructive. If you only want to hear the good things, I can edit out the constructive criticism...but is that really going to help you?

Look, I really think you have a passion for games. I think you're trying to give this all you've got. You guys are off to a great start, as evidenced by the improvements from #1 to #2. Just continue that trend and you're going to do things MG was never able to do. I know it's hard for you to believe, but there are a lot of old MG people pulling for you. Heck, half of them are even working with you!

So, you can take the review, evaluate any truths you see, ignore anything you think stems from a "feud," consider any things you consider relevant and ignore the rest.

Or, you can stick your head in the sand, consider the entire review a means to continue a so-called feud, and ignore what is probably the most thorough and well thought out critique of VGC on the net... The choice is yours.

Sniderman

10-23-2004, 10:46 AM

Congrats. I didn't think you two could get any more assinine. And I like both of you.

Jayson, regardless of your motives - even if they were benign - you HAD to have known posting a review of VGC was a bad idea. Everyone - EVERYONE was going to read into it as being a petty attempt at shooting down something your archnemesis put together. If nothing else, posting this showed bad judgement and casts you in a bad light.

Zach, RESPONDING to this only serves to inflame the heat you two put out whenever you go at each other. Ignore him. Turn the other cheek. Let VGC stand on its own merits. Take the criticsim at face value rather than as an attempt to sink you and your mag.

There. That said, I ask bothj of you to return to your neutral corners. No one at DP gives a damn as to what happened in the past between you two. And I sure's as hell don't wish to see you both continueing this in the future. I ask you both to drop this fued and to - at best - ignore each other. Anything else, and you both will appear even more petty than you already do.

And defending your actions - either of you - will only serve to fan the flames. So knock it off. THanks.

Your pal. Really,

Sniderman

pookninja

10-23-2004, 03:01 PM

omnedon

10-23-2004, 03:10 PM

I've had dealings with both Zach and Jaysen. Both great guys.

Sniderman's the smartest guy in this thread so far, myself included.

Stay the hell away from eachother, and you will both likely stay great guys.

ManciGames

10-23-2004, 03:41 PM

it would be nice if i could find a store in my area that actually carried the magazine.ive been to all the comic book stores,and even bookstores in my surrounding area,and no one carries it.i guess i will have to subscribe eventually.

Most comic book stores can order for you if they use the "Previews" catalog. Just ask them about the catalog. They'll know what you're talking about.

Also, it looks like you can order the first issue direct from them via their website: www.vgcollector.com

Enjoy!

Cav

10-23-2004, 06:10 PM

Are we on Candid Camera? :?

fishsandwich

10-23-2004, 07:22 PM

I happen to love VGC... I love the first one and I love the second one. I can't wait for the third (just get rid of that third Persona game from the PS1 list ;) )

I think the "review" above is fairly smelly :bareass:

.02

Cheers

ManciGames

10-24-2004, 04:55 PM

Are we on Candid Camera? :?

Cav! Good to see you're still out there. Any word on Classic Gamer #3?

Cav

10-24-2004, 05:49 PM

Are we on Candid Camera? :?

Cav! Good to see you're still out there. Any word on Classic Gamer #3?

Good question, actually.

I've gone back to school and have become REALLY busy. We've been toying with going to an HTML format, which will allow us to get more articles out on a timely basis. We just had to lose that "magazine feel" we get with PDF format.

But I think when it comes down to it, no one will really care one way or the other.

Informal poll: Would anyone mind if we were to change to HTML?

-Cav

Melf

10-24-2004, 06:04 PM

As long as I get to read it, I don't care how it's done.

Ed Oscuro

10-24-2004, 06:11 PM

I think HTML is better. PDF is a format straight from Satan - I HATE Adobe Acrobat, and its tendency to hang most public computers I've run across.

HTMLizing it can only be a good thing ;D

ManciGames

10-24-2004, 06:18 PM

Heh. I just noticed our mag logos right next to each other on the ID section of the messages. I pictured VGC there too, and a funny thought occured to me:

Who would have thought that retro gaming mags would be the next talk show? They'll give one to anybody!

Phosphor Dot Fossils

10-24-2004, 08:11 PM

Informal poll: Would anyone mind if we were to change to HTML?
Nope, no objection here. And you can still lay it out how you want within that framework. :D

lendelin

10-25-2004, 06:46 AM

I'm thankful for the review, it was very helpful, and I'm convinced it is objective. I read biased reviews in objective clothing based on personal past battles, this seems to be not one of them.

Dumb little personal fights should be avoided. If both guys involved take a deep breath, take two steps back, forget egos and just look at the criticism, everything is fine.

I read only the first issue of ManciGames, and I don't know the VGC mag. My criticism isn't detailed about the content, but more basic:

First, the main prob with these mags is that they try to mirror past and present mags. You can't compete with the big boys which cover current games, and there is no need to do so even if you could. The first step to get appeal for these mags is to think about what you can do what current mags possibly can't do; and there you have your market niche.

First, reviews of individual old games don't make sense at all for a retro-magazine. They make all the sense in the world for mags which cover current games as guidelines for buying decisions, but why in the world would I need reviews of ONE game ten or twenty years old? Instead, cover in an article in an entertaining way an entire series, or an entire genre for one era, or a genre for one system.... Show how games dveloped over time, and in these articles you have evaluations of individual games as well.

You throw away an incredible opportunity, you have literally thousands of games at your disposal, the possibilities of different angles are endless how these games can be covered; this is something a current mag can't possibly do, they are stuck with reviews and previews; you can deliver much more, and much better.

You can describe, analyze, show some amazing things what happened to games over time, all related to games which are mentioned in the articles and in which buyers are interested in and love. Make on overview of the Dragon Quest series, the FF series with clearing up the number confusions, the heritage of platformers, profiles of early developers (individuals and companies), retrospectives opf game mags, the possibilities are endless; and no current game mag can do this, but you can.

Second, a price guide doesn't make sense. I undertsand why it is in there (motivation for gamers and collectors to pick up the mag) , and at first sight it makes sense; in the long run it doesn't. Sooner or later everyone who is interested in broad guidelines for pricing will end up with the DP guide, and overall games don't fluctuate in prices as much to justify such a big portion for a retro-magazine. It will become boring and repetitive. Instead, make longer articles about new price developments for genres, eras, individual games, accesories of all kinds when actually some new developments occur.

The other sections of the mag addressed in the review make sense. Leave out individual reviews, get rid of the price guide, both spell doom for a retro-mag. Gamers won't pick up the mag becasue they wanna read something like the stockmarket in a newspaper. Don't try to rationalize the collectors scene. Rekindle in every article the love for older games and accessories and related collectibles by naming them, showing them, describing them and analyzing them. Make them come to life. The main reason to pick up such a mag is not a rational one, it is something very irrational, it is enthusiasm for games.

zmweasel

10-25-2004, 07:31 AM

kainemaxwell

10-25-2004, 09:27 AM

Might order a trial issue just to see if its good or not.

ManciGames

10-25-2004, 08:44 PM

Push Upstairs

10-25-2004, 09:55 PM

I think lendelin hit things right on the head with his ideas for retro mags.

Bronty-2

10-25-2004, 10:06 PM

I agree with that wholeheartedly. In fact, I think that entire string of comments lendelin made was the best comment in ages. All star.

I disagree with lendelin's comments re price guides however. The VGC price guide does one thing the DP guide doesn't do - give prices for completes.

lendelin

10-26-2004, 02:03 AM

I'm thankful for the review, it was very helpful, and I'm convinced it is objective. I read biased reviews in objective clothing based on personal past battles, this seems to be not one of them.

You couldn't be more wrong abut Jaysen's "objectivity," Klaus, but you'd need to know much more about the ass-ugly history between him and I to understand why his "review" is a litany of insults, and I don't care to rehash or relive that history.

-- Z.

Regardless of whether or not you believe the review is objective (it is), you should still at least listen to the comments lendelin is making. Makes sense. And if I had it to do over again, I would probably do it his way.

This comment is a goldmine Zach: "You throw away an incredible opportunity, you have literally thousands of games at your disposal, the possibilities of different angles are endless how these games can be covered; this is something a current mag can't possibly do, they are stuck with reviews and previews"

He's right. You guys need to think of ways of covering games that nobody has done yet. We tried something like that with our reviews, but in the end...they were still just reviews.

lendelin is really onto something here. Even if you ignore my entire original post, I would suggest at least printing out the quote noted above and pasting it to the front of your monitor. It's golden...

@zmweasel: well, there is certainly a bit of leg-kicking by Mancigames when he evaluated your reviews, but otherwise it seems fair. If there is more to it which I don't see (I'm sure there is) it is not bad at all, becasue only you two can see it, noone else; and that's good becasue nothing is lost. The review is a good advertisement in any case, no matter what! :)

@Mancigames: well, my criticism was the first thoughts which came to mind when I read Mancigames #1. :) To put my ramblings on a PC monitor goes overboard! :) Quotes from the Bible maybe, or a good poem, even a pic of Miyamoto I can understand, but never ever my stuff! LOL

I might do VGC injustice becasue I didn't read the issue (BIG exclamation mark) The criticism is based on the couple of retro-online mags (or better tries of them), the one ManciGames issue and the impression about the content in the mag review in this thread.

I really think that the first step in making a retro-mag successful is to think about the vacuum necessarily left by current game mags, and jump right into it with a hurray. Everything they can't do, and you can and hits the interest of gamers should be done. A retro mag has at its disposal thousands of games, 25 years of videogames, while the big current mags are limited to one month, maybe two, at best a year of videogames. Their strength is their weakness, a retro-mag can make it the biggest selling point.

I'd always emphasize the enthusiasm for games, becasue everything else flows from it: collecting and playing. The collecting scene should play a big part, prices ahould too, but never in a stockmarket approach. The reason: you limit right away the potential reader base to collectors. There are so many guys out there who like to play older games and like just to read about them and don't care about serious or even mionor collecting at all. It is first games, games, and games, and then what they are worth it today plus all accessories. This way you get collectors and players alike.

There is so many stuff which can be done, the possibilities are great...and they can be done in a very entertaining and informative way. Conditions under which certain series and genres were developed, their perception, who developed them, you can analyze, describe and make the games come alive. Comparisons of genres, series, systems, over time and at a certain era, can all be combined.

Do what current game mags cannot do, and forget about older and current mags. Trying to replicate them spells doom and gives away the potentially biggest strenghts of a retro game mag. Their purpose and target readers are completely different.

ManciGames

10-26-2004, 11:44 AM

@Mancigames: well, my criticism was the first thoughts which came to mind when I read Mancigames #1.

No doubt that I knew your criticisms applied to MG too! That's why I said, "If I had to do it over again, I'd do it [your way]."

I really wish you could have seen issue 2. We did a lot more with #2 than #1. Better design and layout, better stories, better guide, etc. We even had a 4 or 5 page article on the evolution of baseball games for the NES, including screens from all 20 games. Also had a nifty little section comparing the XBOX Ninja Gaiden to the NES Ninja Gaiden. You'd have liked it! By the way, it's still available over at www.mancigames.com . Sorry, had to plug. :)

Alas, it was not meant to be. Alot of people say that all it needed was time to catch on, but I can assure you that there was no way it would have ever been successful. There are ways to do market research that can give you a 95% assurance. That's good enough for me...

Now VGC has set out to become the "Beckett of Video Games." I think the trail of failed retro or retro-inclusive mags like Manci Games, Classic Gamer, Syzgzy, Game Go, the old Retro Gamer, etc. shows that the "articles" format just doesn't seem to click with people. So, VGC is trying something different. Hopefully, it will work out for them.

o2william

10-26-2004, 12:57 PM

First, reviews of individual old games don't make sense at all for a retro-magazine.

I agree with most of your comments Lendelin, but I have to disagree with this one (and I admit to being somewhat biased because I was just tapped to write a short review for a later issue of VGC). The purpose of a review is to advise the reader whether or not to play or purchase a game, and that's a service needed by retro gamers as much as current-gen players. How many wonderful games have I discovered thanks to capsule reviews found in DP, ClassicGaming, Retrogaming Times, etc? How many lousy games have I avoided? Sure, I can read plenty of recommendations in places like the Retrogaming Roundtable, but when a writer takes the time to spell out the virtues or deficiencies of a game in a structured format like a review, it carries more weight.

IMO, the difference between current and retro gaming publications is that reviews should be shorter and should not constitute the bulk of a retro mag. Short reviews peppered throughout the issue would suffice. Your other suggestions for features would make for a more interesting publication overall, but I don't think reviews should be excised completely.

rolenta

10-26-2004, 01:12 PM

I think the trail of failed retro or retro-inclusive mags like Manci Games, Classic Gamer, Syzgzy, Game Go, the old Retro Gamer, etc. shows that the "articles" format just doesn't seem to click with people.

I don't agree. I still think the key to a successful magazine is advertising. The number of downloads that Cav receives for his PDF Classic Gamers proves that people are interested in reading it. The problem with the print magazine (and Cav, pipe in if I'm wrong) is that the printing costs were too high to support the magazine. We argue all the time about economical ways to produce a printed magazine which I have always maintained was a high-quality magazine.

In the comic book world Overstreet constantly has hundreds of ads from small comic book stores around the country. Each month Gameroom magazine has ads from small arcade and pinball dealers. I think a retro magazine can survive with enough ads. Of course someone has to go out and get these ads.

If I recall Game Go was not a retro magazine. It concentrated on the Japanese scene and was printed on high quality paper. And of course its distribution deal with EB surprisingly didn't help it at all. I was never a fan of Syzagy and never had high hopes for it. And which Retro Gamer are you talking about? The one from Live Publishing seems to be doing ok.

Well that's my 2 cents. It doesn't mean I know what I'm talking about.

Cav

10-26-2004, 01:17 PM

ianoid

10-26-2004, 02:55 PM

you can deliver much more, and much better.

I agree on this call to arms, although I must admit I enjoyed a great deal of VGC magazine. I appreciate the criticism, which should be out in the open and considered, although always with a dosage of salt. That is, someone with the vision of the direction of the magazine should decide how much should be integrated and what should change, if anything.

I do agree that reviews should include more perspective, analysis, history, and editorializing and less plot summation or description. When retrogamers read reviews, they are looking for games worth playing or collecting. In this respect, reviews have their place in such a 'zine.

Ongoing, I appreciate he Japan gaming section for it's name dropping and quick stop commentary on a variety of titles. I think that any collecting column should do alot of name dropping- after all, we want to know what to collect, what to buy, and what to play. Isn't that why we buy a Video Game COLLECTING 'zine? I would like to see more mini-price guides and references to prices with each article. For example, at the end of the Japan gaming article, a list of the games mentioned in the format used for the price guide would be useful- in a little box or whatever.

Second, a price guide doesn't make sense.

I was a huge detractor for price guides for ages. And I still am, but I think that it's inevitable that price guides achieve some degree of circulation and interfere with us bottom feeder's shopping experience. However, if everyone selling used video games adhered to a single price guide, items would sit for weeks/months/years and prices (hopefully in a regularly updated guide like this) would go down. This becomes an economic discussion, of which economics I know little.

The fact is, I am happy to see that experienced collectors without predominant vested interest in profiteering are involved in creating these guides. The fact that prices are releated/derived from the generally reasonable DP guide is a huge asset. Some guides have been released that have such awful prices, we can be assured that any vendor using them couldn't sell a Combat cartridge. Therefore, I try not to complain when price guides are realistic, even if too high or too low.

At this point in my collecting (most classic collections are complete or close), most of the games that I need are priced in guides too low (compared to, say, eBay), so I don't care as much. If I see Air Raid at a flea market and the vendor wants $300, I will haggle, but I will probably buy it, knowing that on eBay I would probably pay well over $1000.

--

Criticism is good, when worded unaggressively.

goatdan

10-26-2004, 06:06 PM

I hadn't actually read this article until just a little while ago, but I thought I'd toss in a few cents in the hopes that VGC stays around.

I disagree with the belief that collectors don't want articles, but I fully agree with the fact that collectors don't want huge reviews on new retro games. The GOAT Store is currently selling Dreamcast games, which are one of the most recent systems and can still get exposure in "mainstream" gaming mags. That having been said, we only produced 5000 copies of Feet of Fury and will never produce more, and we still have a good number left. I know from discussions with Atari 2600 developers that selling over a few hundred copies of a game is pretty incredible.

Because of that, if we're looking at a game that will sell 100 copies, if a magazine devotes a page to a review, it isn't going to gain much readership. The 100 or 200 people that regularly purchase homebrew games may subscirbe and love it, but you'll still have 4800 more people to go.

Another problem is that the advertising costs are hard to get. Having worked and advertised in Manci, GameRoom and PinGame Journal (and being a writer for the last two), I can state that it would be hard for video game people to spend so much money to advertise. And both GameRoom and PinGame have sections for more or less "personal" want and sale ads. This is really cheap and a great way for collectors to communicate, but means that the magazines aren't going to go public any time soon. They don't "look" the part. That is taking nothing away from their content, as I am a subscriber to both of these magazines too, and I know many other people that are.

Another thing of note is that both GameRoom and PinGame have new stuff to talk about that is bigger than a homebrew. There is Stern's new Elvis pinball machine and there are bunch of new arcade machines released every year. There is also a lot of

It is interesting to note that there is no price guide in either GameRoom or PinGame Journal. While I understand the point of there being a price guide, I agree with the fact that the prices on games are not going to fluctuate enough to justify it more than once a year. Cards fluctuate much more quickly because things suddenly happen in sports. Tonight, Pedro Martinez could throw a perfect game in the World Series and suddenly his rookie cards would be worth much more. Pete Rose could be reinstated and put into the Hall of Fame. Suddenly, those cards would be worth a lot more. Grand Theft Auto San Andreas comes out, and it isn't like suddenly there is a huge demand for GTA for the Playstation.

The key to making a successful magazine in my opinion is the articles. Get a lot of solid articles and you'll have a great start. Maybe do some short reviews of games (a small paragraph -- 3 to 5 reviews per page). Perhaps they have to go for becoming a niche magazine (like GameRoom or PinGame) and try to get everyone interested. It's a tough, tough, tough market and I don't know if anyone is going to be hugely successful in the near future. I hope that it will work out and that we will have a few publications in the future. I really enjoy GameRoom, PinGame and the first issue of VGC (as well as the two ManciGames that I have) and I always hope there are games like that around.

Flack

10-26-2004, 06:27 PM

I'm going to throw out my opinion -- you may find something in here helpful (probably not). I'm not playing Devil's Advocate or anything here, just throwing out my personal thoughts. These aren't directed towards either or any magazine specifically.

I think retro reviews are, for the most part, a complete waste of time and space. If it's done for entertainment purposes, that's one thing. In a funny review of a game, the focus is on the humor more so than the game. That will get me to read it. If it's done as a straight-forward review though, what's the point? I mean, what on Earth is someone going to tell me about Space Invaders in a couple of paragraphs that I don't already know?

The other thing I don't really care for is information that can be easily found on the web. I don't need someone just copying news from IGN and sticking it into a magazine. For starters, the info is going to probably be a month old by the time I get it. Secondly, if I have been reading it for a month for free on the web, why am I paying to read it rehashed?

That being said, what I WILL pay for is writing. Stories, articles, thoughts, opinions, ideas ... these are the things that are fresh. Pitfall for the 2600 ... good game, but not fresh. Telling me a story about how you got your copy, or interviewing the programmer, or trivia, or whatever ... more fresh. I don't need people to tell me that there are games at thrift stores -- I think everyone here who collects games knows that. But maybe an article on how to clean those games up? Or fixing a console, or comparisons of game tracking programs, or whatever ... just NEW thoughts and ideas. Information about OLD games can still be NEW.

ManciGames

10-26-2004, 06:43 PM

"I think the trail of failed retro or retro-inclusive mags like Manci Games, Classic Gamer, Syzgzy, Game Go, the old Retro Gamer, etc. shows that the "articles" format just doesn't seem to click with people."

Hmmm...over 36,000 downloads of PDF issues 1&2 of Classic Gamer Magazine because people DON'T like articles?

Doubtful.

-Cav

Well, we gave away around 8,000 copies of MG. Doesn't mean people LIKED it. At least not enough to pay for it. :) What were your paid circulation numbers for the print version of CG? The one people actually had to pay for? I'll wager big bucks that it was about 1 or 2 percent of 36,000...

The true test is how much people are willing to pay for it. Most people will take something if it's free (unless they are comic book collectors, but that's a story for a different time).

Lenny probably has the best idea. The few ads we had where people actually paid good "magazine quality" ad money really helped cover the expenses. As Lenny pointed out though, the problem is getting the ads. And as someone who has now dealt with a large corporation on this end (Jakks), I can tell you that getting the ad is only half the challenge. Getting PAID is the other half.

Then again, people will only continue to pay "real magazine ad money" if you can claim readership. There are many delightful ways to pump up those numbers (see CG online), but in the end, they want to see results. Believe me, these companies track how much their sales increase or decrease depending on where their ads are placed.

ManciGames

10-26-2004, 06:45 PM

That is, someone with the vision of the direction of the magazine should decide how much should be integrated and what should change, if anything.

Amen to that.

ManciGames

10-26-2004, 06:53 PM

That having been said, we only produced 5000 copies of Feet of Fury and will never produce more, and we still have a good number left. I know from discussions with Atari 2600 developers that selling over a few hundred copies of a game is pretty incredible.

Dan, I'm glad you brought up the sales numbers. I haven't mentioned this fact too many times because I wasn't sure how "confidential" this info was.

The fact that a successful hombebrew cart sells around two or three hundred copies was one of the things we used to factor in the decision to shut down MG when we did. I've stated before that there is a ton of information that I haven't made public that lead to the decision. This homebrew fact is one piece of that info.

The reasoning is this: If only two or three hundred people care enough to buy a homebrew cart for the Atari 2600, how many of THOSE people would actually care enough to pay for a retro mag? Now, you can multiply that interest by the number of consoles out there...and the figure is still going to be extremely low.

Heck, current gen games sell, what, about 40 million copies a year? And EGM can only get 500,000 people to subscribe.

Just something to ponder. By the way, Cav and Zach, the MG marketing analysis info is for sale if you're interested. Lots of goodies in there! :)

ManciGames

10-26-2004, 06:58 PM

I think retro reviews are, for the most part, a complete waste of time and space. If it's done for entertainment purposes, that's one thing. In a funny review of a game, the focus is on the humor more so than the game. That will get me to read it. If it's done as a straight-forward review though, what's the point? I mean, what on Earth is someone going to tell me about Space Invaders in a couple of paragraphs that I don't already know?

That being said, what I WILL pay for is writing. Stories, articles, thoughts, opinions, ideas ... these are the things that are fresh. Pitfall for the 2600 ... good game, but not fresh. Telling me a story about how you got your copy, or interviewing the programmer, or trivia, or whatever ... more fresh.

Dude, you've just described MG Issue #1...seriously. We had "The Making of Pitfall" as told directly to us by David Crane himself. Lots of cool info. Some we've heard before, and believe it or not, some we hadn't. Also, most of the reviews were more entertaining than straight up informational. Check out Jamie Starr's stuff. Why don't you go over to www.mancigames.com and pick up a copy? :)

That being said, it still crashed and burned. That's why I say let VGC do their thing. Nobody has yet focused on a price guide. We had one, but it was not the focus. Let them give this a go. But again, like Lenny said, get that ad revenue!

Welp, I'm off to play some GTA: San Andreas (which will probably be the last game I buy for the next 6 months, but that also, is a different discussion).

You boys play nice while I'm gone. It's good to see such good constructive criticism for our favorite hobby and mag.

slownerveaction

10-26-2004, 07:05 PM

Ongoing, I appreciate he Japan gaming section for it's name dropping and quick stop commentary on a variety of titles. I think that any collecting column should do alot of name dropping- after all, we want to know what to collect, what to buy, and what to play. Isn't that why we buy a Video Game COLLECTING 'zine? I would like to see more mini-price guides and references to prices with each article. For example, at the end of the Japan gaming article, a list of the games mentioned in the format used for the price guide would be useful- in a little box or whatever.

You've got a good point on that. I did try to point out what was particularly expensive or collectible, but -- with import prices mostly determined by eBay (you aren't likely to see Panorama Cotton "in the wild" anytime soon... unless you're making a trip to Akihabara) and occasionally fluctuating rapidly -- I avoided exact prices. I agree with you though that something like that would be a nice addition, and I've thought about it (and how to best go about it). Consider it an appreciated suggestion.

(And yes, I'm the guy who wrote it. I've also written for Manci Games and Classic Gamer, so I've got a bit of perspective on the "retro gaming magazine" trend.)

BTW, there is a mini price guide accompanying the action figure article tucked into the price guide section (pp. 42).

zmweasel

10-26-2004, 07:23 PM

I don't need people to tell me that there are games at thrift stores -- I think everyone here who collects games knows that. But maybe an article on how to clean those games up?

Adrienne Barr did a wonderful piece on game-cleaning in Issue #1.

-- Z.

zmweasel

10-26-2004, 07:38 PM

A few points on the reviews.

* They're a small percentage of the overall editorial content. There are five pages of reviews in Issue #1, and four pages of reviews in Issue #2.

* The old-school reviews focus on the most collectible games for each system.

* The new-school reviews focus on games with old-school roots.

* The reviews include trivia about the game and/or notes for collectors (i.e., Beyond Shadowgate's poster).

Thanks to the people who've steered this thread away from the transparent personal attack with which it began. It's greatly appreciated.

-- Z.

ManciGames

10-26-2004, 07:45 PM

Thanks to the people who've steered this thread away from the transparent personal attack with which it began. It's greatly appreciated.

Apparently you're the only one who took it as an attack. And you are definitely the only who keeps throwing it back onto the screen. What, you think you're some kinda Jedi or something? Mind tricks don't work on classic gamers... Only content. You're not going to brainwash people into seeing it "your way."

For the love of all that is holy...accept it, get over it, or move on.

Flack

10-26-2004, 07:51 PM

Dude, you've just described MG Issue #1...seriously. We had "The Making of Pitfall" as told directly to us by David Crane himself. Lots of cool info. Some we've heard before, and believe it or not, some we hadn't. Also, most of the reviews were more entertaining than straight up informational. Check out Jamie Starr's stuff. Why don't you go over to www.mancigames.com and pick up a copy? :)

I own both issues; I was one of the (apparently few) subscribers.

ManciGames

10-26-2004, 08:00 PM

I own both issues; I was one of the (apparently few) subscribers.

Hey, good to hear from old subscribers! There were more than a "few" (but just a few more).

Actually, we did pretty well. You'd be surprised. Just not enough to make it worthwhile.

slownerveaction

10-26-2004, 08:02 PM

Apparently you're the only one who took it as an attack. And you are definitely the only who keeps throwing it back onto the screen. What, you think you're some kinda Jedi or something? Mind tricks don't work on classic gamers... Only content. You're not going to brainwash people into seeing it "your way."

I'm not about to claim any sort of personal attack on me; in fact, I appreciated your compliments directed towards me (both in this thread and in the past). However, it would be difficult to deny that you didn't have ulterior motives (to say the least) in rushing to review VGC. I haven't seen you immediately review any other retro gaming mags (like Retro Gamer or Classic Gamer) in the recent past. Logically, if you were out to provide suggestions as how these mags could better serve the community in general, you'd be offering critiques of all of them.

Nevertheless, this thread has provided lots of great commentary. I'm glad it's around.

goatdan

10-26-2004, 08:33 PM

However, it would be difficult to deny that you didn't have ulterior motives (to say the least) in rushing to review VGC.

Nevertheless, this thread has provided lots of great commentary. I'm glad it's around.

Not in defense, but just a note that I totally thought of when I was reading this thread:

It has been said that the best compliment that you can get from Bill Gates is that he will stand up in a meeting, pound his fists on the table and call you an idiot.

The reason why is that he takes constructive criticism as the best way to move forward, and if he disagrees with you so much to get angry at you but you are still willing to challenge him, it proves that you have thought through your point and consider it to be so valid that you can challenge the big boss on it.

That having been said, I think that this whole thread could be viewed as either very positive or very negative. I hope that it does turn into something very positive, as I can assure you that no one here is clamoring to see VGC (or for that matter, was clamoring for ManciGames to) fail. It's just that at the heart of everything, people like us are the target demographic, and if anyone can do a better job at reaching us with content we're happy with, it helps all sides.

Good luck :)

ManciGames

10-26-2004, 08:45 PM

I haven't seen you immediately review any other retro gaming mags (like Retro Gamer or Classic Gamer) in the recent past. Logically, if you were out to provide suggestions as how these mags could better serve the community in general, you'd be offering critiques of all of them.

Nevertheless, this thread has provided lots of great commentary. I'm glad it's around.

Fair enough Geoffrey. You're probably right. While I don't consider Classic Gamer to be quite the same thing since it's online-only (Cav would say that also, I would think), I probably should do one for Retro Gamer. It didn't really spring to mind very quickly because it's been around for awhile. It's kinda goofy to review every single issue a mag puts out, but maybe one would be good. Consider it in the works! But first, I'll have to hunt down a copy, so give me some time.

There's no doubt that I'm partial to VGC due to the heavy involvement of MG people. I sincerely want it to succeed, if just for that alone. These are good people and they deserve to have a print forum.

You are correct though, that there is a lot of good info in this thread. Hopefully you guys won't discount it all simply because I made the first post.

TRM

10-26-2004, 10:44 PM

I have not seen either of the magazines. However, I find it quite silly to be bickering over this stuff. I've been in my share of fights over competition and the like, but if you are both for the same cause (the cause of retro videogames), just let the past in the past, and move on. Just don't talk to one another, if your comments are going to be thought of as attacks. Whether intended to be attacks or not, they will most likely be perceived as attacks.

lendelin

10-26-2004, 11:23 PM

Phew, I'm looking this thread up and there is more constructive fantastic crititicism than someone can hope for. :) Too much great points made to reply individually.

You know, this thread shows that there is on the one hand so much potential interest in a great retro-mag;( it goes beyond active membres on this board!!)

...on the other hand to transform interest into subscriptions is a completely different task. Look at me, for example, with all my smart ass criticism and interest in older games. Did I subscribe to ManciGames? Nope. Am I subscribed to VGC? Nope. I'm a small part of the big obstacle to make such a mag successful. How much more will it take to get the 20 yr old from EBgames to subscribe who has a NES and a complete Stack Up at home but no idea that even a DP guide exists but loves to play once in awhile older games?

What rolenta and others pointed out about the restrictions of making such a mag successful is THE most important aspect. It is MONEY. Money sets the limits and opportunities what you can do. It is a publisher with distribution power who can take a loss in the early stages, it is ads, it is marketing to the target audience, it is people who write for the mag who can make it happen; in the end all our proposed wishes and criticicism is framed by money.

I think there are great proposals made when it comes to reviews. It calmed me down when zmweasel wrote that only four or five pages were reviews about individual games. A lot of the topics of the other articles are great.

I still think that a retro-mag should completely forget about conventional reviews found currently and in the past. They don't make sense in a retro-mag. Comparative reviews like ianoid, others and I proposed are the way to go. I meant by longer articles about games basically overarching reviews which open up much more opportunities and angles that a mere game review of one game can deliver.

There is a hesitancy to compare games! :) Comparing is the bread and butter of thinking. We do it all the time when playing a modern game, mags do it, game critics do it, but they don't have the space and opportunity to do it in more than one sentence. A retro-mag can do it ina ll its glory.

Why not compare an entire genre of one era evaluating (reviewing) the best and the worst? This way the angles to look at games are great. Good gameplay elements, bad ones, what was done right and wrong, making clear that under the same hardware restrictions gameplay can be achieved or done terribly wrong. Aspects like sleeper hits, obstacles or breeding grounds for perceptions and sales, interesting facets about conditions of game developemnt, game companies, and individual game designers can be addressed...and...and...and... The opportunities to focus on a couple of key aspects are fantastic.

Why not compare old platformers to new ones and explain where they are different and still very similar? Did they make sense back then, do they make sense now under different hardware restrictions and opportunities? All the above mentioned angles can be applied as well.

All of this should be done in an entertaining way, not only explanations should be given but also descriptions which make games come alive, old and new.

Mancigames, back then I looked up the issue #2. I think there was a comparison between Metroid Prime and the first Metroid in there, and I remember well that I thought "YEAH, that's the step in the right direction!" :)...but the review was still a slave of the conventional reviews. Comparisons like that, especially if they go beyond two games, open up much more opportunities.

((((more about me and to strenghten my argument: these comparative reviews don't have to be as boring as what I delivered in the recent issue of the Dp 'zine. :) They can be much more entertaining. I just wanted to deliver something different from the other guys, and somethiung that cannot be found on the net. It is not good trying to be funny when you have already funny guys writing there. :) Some find different approaches boring, some find it interesting, I always thought a mag should have authors with very different styles for broad appeal; I didn't try to be funny, I try to explain stuff. I'm not writing this to brag, just to take the sails out of the wind for those who think about my arguments about reviews: "Yeah, the same boring stuff you did, gimme a break" :) )))

To make something clear: reviews about individual games make a LOT of sense for a website like DP and the DP 'zine. The DP 'zine has a topic for each issue, basically one issue is one big article subdivided into articles by different authors and reviews of single games. They make a lot of sense there, for a general retro-mag they represent missed opportunities.

Great proposals were made: I agree with to combine maybe prices for games addressed in an article as add-ons (with release dates and developer maybe; great descriptions, analysis, and information for the collector right there); or why not add a complementing article from a collectors view to an article about certain games, or eras, games of a system, and so on?

What I like about the Collectors section by Joe Santulli in Tips&Tricks is that it is never a stockmarket approach. It is never reduced merely to what certain games are worth today. He always talks about the games themselves, goes shortly into how they play, this way a great balance is achieved of prices and gameplay. Together with the section right before it by Charlotte Chen it appeals to retro-gamers and collectors alike.

I think the thread is great. Lots of good input. Substantial great points were made...and I agree with goatdan: it is very positive. All of us wish that a retro mag like VGC will take off and become a success, I wished it to ManciGames, and I wish the same for VGC. All my criticism which maybe makes sense, maybe not, which maybe is too simplistic, is rooted in the hope to see a retro-mag become a big success.

A successful retro-mag is more important than everyone of us together. The potential market is there, to reach it is another task; but within the financial limits I think the way I proposed it is the way to go. At least I think it would appeal more to the casual retro-game lover and collector alike which has more prospects of success.

PS: @zmweasel: for this post you can call me "long-winded", you little rascal, it is more than justified. :) (this is good intended teasing) :)

RCM

10-26-2004, 11:45 PM

Push Upstairs

10-27-2004, 12:25 AM

I'm going to throw out my opinion...

I agree with everything you said in your post.

I am not a fan of censorship but shouldn't this thread be locked? It's a clear attempt to insult one of the DPers. This was no civil discussion turned ugly. It shouldn't be done to anyone whether it is my friend or foe. amen

Why?

I am aware that this thread started under questionable terms but retro gamers have expressed some valid points.

lendelin

10-27-2004, 12:35 AM

Holy hell. This thread should NOT have been started. I am aware of the history between Jaysen and Meston. It's one thing to argue, it's another thing to specifically go looking for a fight.

Ive met jaysen and he seemed to be a nice fellow. Never did anything to me. It's no secret that i'm no fan of Meston and some of his "followers" on the boards but he is exactly right on this issue as far as it being an attack. We've both attacked each other but I didn't and I will assume that he didn't go onto ANY thread looking just to attack. I believe Jaysen is guilty of doing so.

I am not a fan of censorship but shouldn't this thread be locked? It's a clear attempt to insult one of the DPers. This was no civil discussion turned ugly. It shouldn't be done to anyone whether it is my friend or foe. amen

THE ONE, THE ONLY- RCM

Oh please, I think the thread is way beyond intended or unintended personal attacks already; It is burdened by the past history of two guys, but if one of them decides to restrict himself to short comments, or better if both concentrate on substantial proposals, all is well on the civilized front! No need for hysterical screams about locking threads. :)

I don't think that zmweasel had a serious run-in with rolenta, Flack, ianoid, slownervereaction or me or all the other who contributed; what is the sense in calling for a polite censorship which we usually call locking a thread?

RCM

10-27-2004, 12:53 AM

RCM wrote:
I am not a fan of censorship but shouldn't this thread be locked? It's a clear attempt to insult one of the DPers. This was no civil discussion turned ugly. It shouldn't be done to anyone whether it is my friend or foe. amen

Why?

I am aware that this thread started under questionable terms but retro gamers have expressed some valid points.

The thread should have been locked right off the bat. Nobody should start a thread with the intent to insult anyone on the boards. I agree some "retro gamers" have made some valid points. But I don't like the venom in Jaysens original post.

Nobody wins when you fight on a message board anyway. It's fucking stupid. Some people here clearly have not learned that. You know who you are! Whether you're right or wrong you lose in the end with all the wasted time and energy.

THE ONE, THE ONLY- RCM

RCM

10-27-2004, 12:58 AM

Oh please, I think the thread is way beyond intended or unintended personal attacks already; It is burdened by the past history of two guys, but if one of them decides to restrict himself to short comments, or better if both concentrate on substantial proposals, all is well on the civilized front! No need for hysterical screams about locking threads.

I don't think that zmweasel had a serious run-in with rolenta, Flack, ianoid, slownervereaction or me or all the other who contributed; what is the sense in calling for a polite censorship which we usually call locking a thread?

Ok, I was a little late on this one. I have a life outside of the DP boards. I'm not sure about the rest of you! A Joke people, A joke. My main point, which is often lost upon at least a few DPers is that threads started to insult DP members should not be tolerated. get that everyone?

THREADS STARTED TO INSULT DP MEMBERS SHOULD NOT BE TOLERATED. It's ok to start threads insulting AtariAge people though! Ha ha ha.

THE ONE, THE ONLY- RCM

lendelin

10-27-2004, 01:17 AM

THREADS STARTED TO INSULT DP MEMBERS SHOULD NOT BE TOLERATED.
THE ONE, THE ONLY- RCM

There were no insults in the first post, just leg-kicking about the reviews of a DP member. There is a difference between insults and expressed uncomfortable feelings based on past history which comes through intentionally or unintentionally. The review was overall positive, I can't see how a positive review is insulting. ManciGames didn't smash VGC; overall, it is an advertisement for VGC, and so is the entire thread. It certainly won't hurt sales of VGC at all! :)

You are speculating about motivations. Only the two guys involved know best about innuendos, slight remarks inteneded as late revenges, and the little conflicts of the past. If noone else sees it, how can you, and then there is no justification to lock a thread becasue no harm is done.

rolenta

10-27-2004, 02:37 AM

I'm confused about one thing. Why is VG Collector being coined a RETRO magazine? I haven't received #2 yet so I don't know what direction the magazine has gone but when I talked to Shawn earlier this year he said that he didn't want the magazine to be a retro-only magazine and that was why the price guide also includes the current systems.

rolenta

10-27-2004, 02:40 AM

SoulBlazer

10-27-2004, 03:38 AM

Why would he say that? LOL

Berserker

10-27-2004, 04:19 AM

Few things.

I have a life outside of [X].

Am I the only person who has a hard time believing people who say that? The few moments where I actually have had a rather busy life, I was usually too busy living to mention it. Minor quibble. Moving on...

I don't think this thread should've been locked outright. It was an interesting read, on a few different levels. However, I do think the thread should be locked now, as all meaningful conversation has long since passed, and is now thinning out into banal explanatories. The horse has raced, and now it's done. It's time to put 'er down. Tis just my opinion.

ManciGames

10-27-2004, 09:58 AM

I don't think this thread should've been locked outright. It was an interesting read, on a few different levels. However, I do think the thread should be locked now, as all meaningful conversation has long since passed, and is now thinning out into banal explanatories. The horse has raced, and now it's done. It's time to put 'er down. Tis just my opinion.

But why lock it? I've seen people in other threads mentioning that they are buying VGC based on my review. With over 1,000 views, this can only be a good thing for them.

Instead of criticizing my criticism, why don't the people who are claiming that it's nothing but an attack post a counter to the points that I made? Have any of you detractors actually read the mag? Even looked at it? No? Yes?

If yes, why don't you point out your own likes and dislikes? If you think it's perfect as is, say that. If nothing else, let's keep this on the positive track and steer it back to the discussion of gaming mags in general.

ManciGames

10-27-2004, 10:04 AM

RCM

10-27-2004, 10:13 AM

You are speculating about motivations. Only the two guys involved know best about innuendos, slight remarks inteneded as late revenges, and the little conflicts of the past. If noone else sees it, how can you, and then there is no justification to lock a thread becasue no harm is done.

I think at least one sees it my way, this is from meston:

You're not objective, Jaysen. As POG pointed out, considering our ass-ugly history in these forums, absolutely everything you have to say about VGC is biased. Your "review" is nothing but a transparent series of insults.

You speak of "having no beef," but you keep coming back to these forums again and again for no other reason than to keep our "feud" going. In fact, your last post before this thread was nearly three weeks ago, when you injected yourself into a thread where I had mentioned you in passing.

I don't care if you or anyone else sees it my way. The world is round.

THE ONE, THE ONLY- RCM

RCM

10-27-2004, 10:16 AM

Few things.

RCM wrote:
I have a life outside of [X].

Am I the only person who has a hard time believing people who say that? The few moments where I actually have had a rather busy life, I was usually too busy living to mention it. Minor quibble. Moving on...

You caught me! I really DON'T have a life outside of these forums. I sure do hate people like me. Damn me to hell.

THE ONE, THE ONLY- RCM

ManciGames

10-27-2004, 10:18 AM

I don't care if you or anyone else sees it my way. The world is round.

THE ONE, THE ONLY- RCM

Okay, just to make things better, I'm not going to post to digitpress.com for the forseeable future. Hopefully, this will take some of the supposed venom out of this "scathing" review.

RCM

10-27-2004, 10:28 AM

lendelin

10-27-2004, 12:16 PM

RCM wrote:

I don't care if you or anyone else sees it my way. The world is round.

THE ONE, THE ONLY- RCM

Okay, just to make things better, I'm not going to post to digitpress.com for the forseeable future. Hopefully, this will take some of the supposed venom out of this "scathing" review.

Do what you want. I stated my problem in previous posts.

THE ONE, THE ONLY- RCM

MaciGames' position is very reasonable, and loosing a poster who makes good substantial arguments would be a shame! Looking at the posts, the only ones which tried to bring unnecessary heat to a civilized debate are YOURS.

I say it again: there were no insults whatsoever in the original review. You shouldn't speculate about motivations or try to crawl into someones brain, and neither should a moderator. Wait with hysterical calls for locking threads when actually severe insults occur; anticipated insults are ridiculous and make every educational dicatator proud.

lendelin

10-27-2004, 12:51 PM

I don't think that zmweasel had a serious run-in with rolenta

Heh! Just check out the issue of PSExtreme from last year where zmweasel wrote that he expected me to punch him in the face when we met at CGE03 for the first time.

Well, the only Q is then: did he do it or is he a paper tiger? ;) ...and if you two bought boxing gloves, then you get the economy running. You see, there is always something positive to report. :)

About the Q why I coined VGC a retro-mag: You're right, it was more tailored towards ManciGames, and based on the VGC review. Based on the title, it is obvious that the mag is tailored towards collectors, I have the impression it is a mix of both. Which is a great starting point becasue you get collectors and retro-gamers alike.

A rather comprehensive price guide in such a mag still doesn't make sense to me. Prices of games, genres can be included in the mag in a more interesting, lively way. Replications of already existing stuff like price guides become sooner or later an unnecessary appendix. Readers probably already have the two DP guides, or will get it. Minor fluctuations in prices don't justify bi-monthly updates.

Everything which others can make better and more in-depth should be avoided, and everything which a retro-mag can can do better should be stressed.

I'm just a bit passionate about the issue in general becasue I can smell, I can feel that there is a potential market out there. I'm amazed that 20 year old students know and play the first Castlevania or Joust. They don't wanna rekindle childhood experiences, they play it because the games were SIMPLE. Partially it is a fad, but it is also the simplicity of games in stark contrast to the games today. They give me always the same answer: the games are simple!

Last week I picked up at EB games a Culdcept for ten dollars, and the sales kid (probably about twenty) started a conversation about it and we talked about games in general. He has a NES, and a R.O.B., and I asked him if he has Stack UP! He had it complete, and I told him what it is worth today (ebay prices). He had no idea. He plays his NES sometimes, but started out with the Super NES as a kid. I asked him why he plays old NES games, and I got the same answer: they are great, they are so simple.

There is an increased interest in older games in the last couple of years, we all know it; and it makes sense. The game industry is so succesful today, and game development is gradual and slow, it is an invitation to go back to the past. Nintendo does its Classic series for GBA, we get more and more compilation disks of older games, and the little joysticks with built in games from Atari, Midway, Namco and others.

The potential market for retro-mags are there, the big Q is: how to grab and reach the market.

Griking

10-27-2004, 01:56 PM

Nobody wins when you fight on a message board anyway. It's fucking stupid. Some people here clearly have not learned that. You know who you are! Whether you're right or wrong you lose in the end with all the wasted time and energy.

http://home.comcast.net/~griking/retard.jpg

Sorry, I had to do it :evil:

RCM

10-27-2004, 03:12 PM

MaciGames' position is very reasonable, and loosing a poster who makes good substantial arguments would be a shame! Looking at the posts, the only ones which tried to bring unnecessary heat to a civilized debate are YOURS.

I say it again: there were no insults whatsoever in the original review. You shouldn't speculate about motivations or try to crawl into someones brain, and neither should a moderator. Wait with hysterical calls for locking threads when actually severe insults occur; anticipated insults are ridiculous and make every educational dicatator proud.

We obviously disagree. Let's agree to drop it.

THE ONE, THE ONLY- RCM

goatdan

10-27-2004, 03:55 PM

We obviously disagree. Let's agree to drop it.

I had a huge response with a more in-depth review of why I'm a subscriber to both GameRoom and PinGame and why I think that a hobby with a smaller potential market (the largest selling pinball game sold 21,700 copies I believe... How many copies of SMB are there?) but my computer crashed out of the site and I lost it. Here's a shorter version of it...

I was not a subscriber to Manci, but I got copies of both mags at the Midwest Gaming Classic and would've become one. I am not a subscriber to VGC but do have the first copy. There are two main differences between the two subsets of mags -- PinGame and GameRoom don't try to be a magazine carried by big stores, they both try to be well-made fan-led magazines. A lot of their content focuses on the hobby. Check out the Web sites and read some of the articles (http://www.pingamejournal.com/ and http://www.gameroommagazine.com/) GameRoom does a very cool feature every month where they focus on one reader's GameRoom and what they do with it including pictures. Probably 50% of the covers are actually people's game rooms or people in their game rooms. There is also a lot of articles on newly developed games or care for games that people have found out.

There is no price guide for either magazine, even though pinball and arcade machines are probably a hobby that could better use one. I know for a fact that I overpaid on one of the two pins that I have by more than $400 and a price guide would've stopped that. But it doesn't make sense. Even coin-ops don't fluctuate enough month to month or quarter to quarter to make a price guide worthwhile. In the last five years, certain games have gotten a little more expensive, but not so much that I feel that a price guide would track it properly. That, and there are so many variables, just like in cartridges. If I pick up a Jurassic Park pinball, I'm going to look at everything from how the playfield is to if all the lights work before making an offer. Same thing with games. If a game has a label that is slightly poor, I would offer more for it than one that was totally missing.

Also, rarity does not always go hand in hand with cost. A great game like Super Mario Brothers 3 may be as common as dirt, but we can't hold onto them at the GOAT Store selling them at $8.00 apiece. There are some games that are R3's and R4's that we've had listed for a few dollars for a long time and haven't moved.

I feel that the DP price/rarity guide is about as good as it can get, and even it has it's share of things that I disagree with. But that's the nature of collecting.

I don't think that a classic gaming centric magazine will fully succeed until the price guide idea has been altered in some way and more content is added. I would also love to see a more independant view of how to run the magazine -- if the pinball / game room hobby can support two different magazines (not including games like Replay and the like that are targeted toward operators), I'm sure that the classic gaming community can support at least one. I just think that things may have to be looked at differently and the overall presentation quality taken down a notch to reduce pressing price and then offer advertising rates much cheaper and include more personal articles about people's collections or stories about games or whatever.

For the classic gaming community, I can pretty much guarantee that no vendors are making so much of a killing that they will want to take out a very expensive ad. If, on the other hand, you can submit an ad for $5.00 a lot of people would probably take advantage of it. There is a "Power Ads" section to game room like this -- $5.00 gets you 100 words. It's great as a way to ask for games, parts or whatever.

RCM, as for your comments you have now made more than 6 comments in the last 20 or so comments. Before you came about, the conversation was full of what I thought was a lot of good constructive criticism and (if people chose to) they could gain a lot from the comments. Why don't you let the moderators be the moderators and if they feel the need to close this, they can... but to this point, it has remained unlocked as all of these suggestions (yes, even Jaysen's) could be taken and used by VGC or any other possible future magazine.

I didn't join this thread to sit here and talk about how great any one magazine is, but I feel that PinGame Journal and GameRoom are the two favorite publications that I get (in that order) and I am hoping that something like them starts for the classic gaming scene. I hope that we can all continue with this and that a positive future comes from this.

Ed Oscuro

10-27-2004, 03:59 PM

What rolenta and others pointed out about the restrictions of making such a mag successful is THE most important aspect. It is MONEY. Money sets the limits and opportunities what you can do.
This is a very interesting point. We've seen that people won't spend money on a gaming mag because it gets in the way of their game playing. I think that if one could sell Manci or VGC for LESS THAN A DOLLAR, then almost every person at these forums would buy it. Less than a dollar. Anything more and you're looking at Goodwill money. That doesn't leave any chance for these mags to actually produce their magazine, of course. The thing that's getting in the way is the belief that one needs to get money out of this, and a fascination with a paper product.

An understandable one, of course, but if you're gonna make a bus reader (ahem), then why waste money on pretty pictures?

The other possibility is that somebody should set up an online-only "magazine" that's got the pretty content but has a voluntary payment system - i.e. you pay for what you think the content's worth, and if you think it's worth $.02 then you pay $.02. Some folks have tried this and found they made MORE money than they did with a fixed payment schedule and fees, and of course saw their readership improve. If people aren't paying even $.01 then you need to do something about your content. If somebody wants to print themselves a copy then can do that, and after you start rolling along with such an idea then you can roll out subscriptions for printed copies. Simple!

Frankly, I'm a bit surprised that as many people subscribe or buy print game mags like CGW, XBN, Tips 'n Tricks, and all the rest. Though I am pleased that this means people haven't given up all faith in reading ;D