GBA roms: Do's and don'ts?

[DaBargainHunta]

The Metal Slug Advance topic made me think of this question (the rom came out today):

What are your views on GBA roms? This goes especially to those of you who have flash carts and can put these roms in your actual GBA. Obviously, none of us are pirates and we want to support the game industry and keep it thriving, but do you see anything wrong with previewing new GBA releases on either your flash cart or the VisualBoy Advance emulator? With very few places offering GBA rentals (at least around here), it seems like the only way to try before you buy. Some people say that it's perfectly legal to try a rom as long as you get rid of it after 24 hours, but others insist that that's just BS fabricated by pirates to make their actions seem okay (I'm honestly not sure which one is true).

So, what are your takes on this?

[Jive3D]

supporting the game indsutry is what we should all do, but being able to try stuff out to determine if it's worth the purchase price is great. There are so many games that look good that turn out to be crap - and buying those crappy games only lets plublishers put out more craptastic games - which is VERY common as far as the GBA goes. Also, checking out games is a great way to stumble upon games that you would have never thought to buy.

[Daria]

supporting the game indsutry is what we should all do, but being able to try stuff out to determine if it's worth the purchase price is great. There are so many games that look good that turn out to be crap - and buying those crappy games only lets plublishers put out more craptastic games - which is VERY common as far as the GBA goes. Also, checking out games is a great way to stumble upon games that you would have never thought to buy.

I don't see anything wrong with this view. Although personally I don't trust myself with GBA roms so I never touch them.

It's too easy for me to say "Welp I've already played that one." and buy another game. I'd rather not have that attitude.

[junglehunter]

DO: Buy Games

DON'T: DOWNLOAD ROMZ

:hmm: ;) :/

[Azazel]

The 24 hour rule is complete BS. I personally don't like playing on a small screen so at least in that way emulation has an advantage over the real thing. Plus there's also frame skipping for us that mostly just play RPGs.

[postulio]

im gonna be honest, i download them and hack them with trainers/sprite hacks etc to play then on my gba.

but most of the time i already own the game, just need a clean dump for hacking.

always support the developer, they deserve it.

and that crap about try before you buy? its all bullshit, we both know you wont go out and spend 40 bucks on something thats already sitting on your PC.

wanna know how the game is? read a review.

[Kilik Kurosawa]

maybe if they game developerss would release FREE demo roms on websites that would solve a lot of ethical problems

[gamemaster5378]

Where do you get GBA roms anyway?

[DaBargainHunta]

Where do you get GBA roms anyway?
Check your PMs.

[postulio]

Where do you get GBA roms anyway?
Check your PMs.


now thats fucked up. dont tell people where to get roms. its bad enough we do it dont spread the word.

dumbass.

[Jorpho]

maybe if they game developerss would release FREE demo roms on websites that would solve a lot of ethical problems

I believe someone tried this with the GBA M&M game long ago. And Blizzard had a pretty nifty Flash implementation of their Lost Vikings port.

Anyway, there's lots of ROMs right here (http://www.zophar.net/roms.phtml?op=show&type=gba). :) (I really ought to check out that El-Hazard game sometime.)

[Promophile]

maybe if they game developerss would release FREE demo roms on websites that would solve a lot of ethical problems

99.99 percent of the people that say "I'm only trying it out" will not buy the game after "trying it out". No offense but its true.

[Jorpho]

And they probably won't play the game anymore after "trying it out" either, then, especially if they're "trying out" that many games.

[DaBargainHunta]

Where do you get GBA roms anyway?
Check your PMs.


now thats fucked up. dont tell people where to get roms. its bad enough we do it dont spread the word.
Yeah, after all, I'M the ONLY source in the WORLD for rom info. No chance he would've EVER found out any other way. :roll:


dumbass.
EXCUSE ME?? What the hell did I do to deserve this kind of abuse from you?! You have some nerve. Do us all a favor and drown yourself in a vat of acid.

(Sorry, guys - I try to be professional at all times, but I'm not going to turn the other cheek when some rude imbecile decides to hurl abuse in my direction for absolutely NO reason when I didn't do a damn thing to deserve it.)

[Aussie2B]

Well, I have used them before, but only really to take screen shots of games I've already bought and played. I've tried out a few games (like both Japanese Fire Emblem games, for example), but I'm not interested in playing through a ROM on my PC.

[Flack]

EXCUSE ME?? What the hell did I do to deserve this kind of abuse from you?! You have some nerve. Do us all a favor and drown yourself in a vat of acid.


(Sorry, guys - I try to be professional at all times ...

Heh. Anyway, what you guys are all talking about is illegal, regardless of whether or not you can justify it. As these forums are looked at by not only gamers but people involved directly with the gaming industry, it would probably serve you well to move technical conversations about how and where to get pirated software to PM's.

Download warez as a form of "game rental" has been argued for before (even by yours truly), but stealing is stealing.

If you want to talk about your views on ROMs that's fine (as it's been done several times before) ... but do us all a favor and drop the drama -- that means calling people dumbasses AND telling people to drown in vats of acid.

[DaBargainHunta]

Heh. Anyway, what you guys are all talking about is illegal, regardless of whether or not you can justify it. As these forums are looked at by not only gamers but people involved directly with the gaming industry, it would probably serve you well to move technical conversations about how and where to get pirated software to PM's.
But that's what I did: I PMed the person who asked. And just for the record, no one knows whether I PMed him a rom website or a long speech about the evils of roms. LOL I'll be honest though - I did PM him a website. If that's against the rules, I'll stop.


Download warez as a form of "game rental" has been argued for before (even by yours truly), but stealing is stealing.
I'm honestly not sure what the legalities are, hence why I started this thread. I legitimately wanted to know.


If you want to talk about your views on ROMs that's fine (as it's been done several times before) ... but do us all a favor and drop the drama -- that means calling people dumbasses AND telling people to drown in vats of acid.
LMAO. Well said. :) I'll keep my "vats of acid" comments to myself from now on and just try harder to ignore trouble-makers and shit-stirrers.

[Flack]

I'm honestly not sure what the legalities are, hence why I started this thread. I legitimately wanted to know.

You're honestly not sure that downloading copyrighted software and playing it for free (a.k.a. STEALING) is wrong?

God bless the MP3 generation.

[Cauterize]

anyone who claims they have never used a rom is a down right liar!

[The_EniGma]

anyone who claims they have never used a rom is a down right liar!

I didnt use one till august

[DaBargainHunta]

You're honestly not sure that downloading copyrighted software and playing it for free (a.k.a. STEALING) is wrong?

God bless the MP3 generation.
You might want to re-read my original post before you take my words out of context. I asked about the supposed 24-hour rule.

P.S. I don't have ANY MP3s on my PC (except for any that might've come with it), and I don't own an Apple iPod or any of those newfangled devices. Seriously.

[Flack]

You're honestly not sure that downloading copyrighted software and playing it for free (a.k.a. STEALING) is wrong?

God bless the MP3 generation.
You might want to re-read my original post before you take my words out of context. I asked about the supposed 24-hour rule.

P.S. I don't have ANY MP3s on my PC (except for any that might've come with it), and I don't own an Apple iPod or any of those newfangled devices. Seriously.

The fact that you keep calling it the "supposed" 24-hour rule I suspect you already know the answer to your question.

Downloading ROMs and keeping them for 24 seconds, 24 hours, 24 weeks or 24 years is the same. They're all breaking the same law.

[DaBargainHunta]

The fact that you keep calling it the "supposed" 24-hour rule I suspect you already know the answer to your question.
Again, please re-read my original post. :) I am calling it "supposed" because I've heard conflicting views on the subject. Some say it's okay and others say it's BS created by people to justify their piracy.


Downloading ROMs and keeping them for 24 seconds, 24 hours, 24 weeks or 24 years is the same. They're all breaking the same law.
What about 24 days? :D :P J/K

[SoulBlazer]

To defend what the original replier said, I HAVE downloaded games before to 'try them out' before I buy them -- ESPECILY with PC and GBA games. I can't rent those like I can with console games, and if no demo exists I want to make DAMN sure I'm going to ENJOY the game before I slap down $30-50 for it. So I'll try it out for a while, decide, and get rid off of it. I'll support the game companies by always buying the game if I like it, but I'm trying not to support the BAD companies.

[Mangar]

[quote=DaBargainHunta]
You're honestly not sure that downloading copyrighted software and playing it for free (a.k.a. STEALING) is wrong?

God bless the MP3 generation.

It's not wrong.

It's certainly illegal, but the concept of "wrong" would depend on each individuals personal opinions and attidudes on the subject. What's wrong to you, is not wrong to me, and vice versa. I have no problem whatsoever with pirates and piracy, and from someone who has a long history of being on the top rung of the entire group hierarchy that exists - Pirates do more good for actual gamers, then harm.

Without pirates, or the threat of piracy - I shudder to think what the cost of many games would be today. The very fact that game prices have sort of frozen in the face of inflation, is just one of the many positive effects for gamers. Companys may not like it, but in the end - I'd rather be seen as "Good for Gamers, and bad for Shareholders." then the other way around.


As these forums are looked at by not only gamers but people involved directly with the gaming industry

People would be surprised just how many game industry folks have their hands in piracy. Games don't leak themselves to the masses, 2 months before a release date. :) People who are downloading GBA advance roms every now and then, can hardly be looked at in the same way. Much less as someone who would harm a company.

[postulio]

Where do you get GBA roms anyway?
Check your PMs.


now thats fucked up. dont tell people where to get roms. its bad enough we do it dont spread the word.
Yeah, after all, I'M the ONLY source in the WORLD for rom info. No chance he would've EVER found out any other way. :roll:


dumbass.
EXCUSE ME?? What the hell did I do to deserve this kind of abuse from you?! You have some nerve. Do us all a favor and drown yourself in a vat of acid.

(Sorry, guys - I try to be professional at all times, but I'm not going to turn the other cheek when some rude imbecile decides to hurl abuse in my direction for absolutely NO reason when I didn't do a damn thing to deserve it.)


damn straight you deserve abuse. and you should be fined and/or jailed for the shit you do. especially if youre telling other people how to steal.

are you the only source? no. but going out and looking for something recquires motivation and time, having some thief dipshit tell you where to download games for free is different.


what youre doing is wrong and you deserve abuse and profanity. its people like you that drive our beloved industry into the ground. Everytime some publisher cancels a game that was supposed to be translated into english is mostly due to piracy (secret of mana 2 anyone). and early source leaks delay good games, we're lucky HL2 is still coming out.

so take youre crusade elsewhere. if you wanna beef with me i suggest you come in person and not threaten me on a Game Collectors forums.

$%@#er

[RCM]

now thats fucked up. dont tell people where to get roms. its bad enough we do it dont spread the word.

In that statement aren't you admitting that you download as well? As in "It's bad enough we do it." If I read that wrong please tell me. I don't think I did. Aren't you as bad as DaBargainHunta then?

THE ONE, THE ONLY- RCM

[DynastyLawyer]

It's certainly illegal, but the concept of "wrong" would depend on each individuals personal opinions and attidudes on the subject. What's wrong to you, is not wrong to me, and vice versa.

Agreed. What is wrong to me (slavery) is not wrong to others (slave owners). But the concepts of "wrong" or "right" are in no way "dependent on each individual's personal opinions and attitudes on the subject." Some moral decisions are flat out wrong, and if people are thinking of them as right, that does nothing to make them right. Logical mistake number one on your part.


Without pirates, or the threat of piracy - I shudder to think what the cost of many games would be today. The very fact that game prices have sort of frozen in the face of inflation, is just one of the many positive effects for gamers. Companys may not like it, but in the end - I'd rather be seen as "Good for Gamers, and bad for Shareholders." then the other way around.


Tough luck. You're bad for gamers. Care to run by me how your downloading a game for free instead of paying for it DECREASES the price of games as a whole, and how your downloading a game for free does not INCREASE the price of the games? I'm no merchant, but I'm pretty sure if you have more people willing to buy an item, you can charge less for said item if you will it. Let me break down who wins and who loses, according to your actions: The shareholders lose, everyone paying for it legitimately loses, and you and everyone else cutting corners in an illegal fashion wins. You're a real hero, Ace.



People would be surprised just how many game industry folks have their hands in piracy. Games don't leak themselves to the masses, 2 months before a release date. People who are downloading GBA advance roms every now and then, can hardly be looked at in the same way. Much less as someone who would harm a company.

Textbook bandwagon fallacy. That people in the game industry leak games I'm in no position to argue against, but assuming they do, that still doesn't make it for gamers who go ahead and play the games in the moral right. Let's say I walk into someone's house, and steal their kitten right in front of them. They follow me outside, and I hand the kitten over to you. Are you telling me that you will tell the person, deprived of the kitten, that you have the right to said kitten because someone else was the one that illegally deprived them of it? Guess what, chief. The true owner to a piece of property has rights to that property, that cannot be infringed by anyone. Not the person who steals it, the person that reaps the benefits of the other person stealing it, whatever.

[postulio]

now thats fucked up. dont tell people where to get roms. its bad enough we do it dont spread the word.

In that statement aren't you admitting that you download as well? As in "It's bad enough we do it." If I read that wrong please tell me. I don't think I did. Aren't you as bad as DaBargainHunta then?

THE ONE, THE ONLY- RCM


i mentioned in the first post i do it for mostly games i already have because i like hacking them (i have one of the first readers released for gba and it makes bad dumps, so i cant dump my own)

seriously i dont pirate, im strictly against pirating games.

[RCM]

i mentioned in the first post i do it for mostly games i already have because i like hacking them (i have one of the first readers released for gba and it makes bad dumps, so i cant dump my own)

seriously i dont pirate, im strictly against pirating games.

Fair enough

THE ONE, THE ONLY- RCM

[Mangar]

damn straight you deserve abuse. and you should be fined and/or jailed for the shit you do. especially if youre telling other people how to steal.



The joys of America, is that you cannot be jailed simply for telling someone where to find GBA Roms. I'd love to fight that charge in court. :)



Some moral decisions are flat out wrong, and if people are thinking of them as right, that does nothing to make them right. Logical mistake number one on your part.

Moral's are personal opinions. One persons moral decision, can be against someone elses. Half this country finds gay marriage to be immoral, while the other half does not. The same can be said of piracy, or any other pseudo-crime. Legality and Moral Values are not the same thing. Piracy is illegal and Immoral to *YOU*. To me it's just illegal. It don't make either one of us incorrect, it just means we have different moral values.


You're bad for gamers. Care to run by me how your downloading a game for free instead of paying for it DECREASES the price of games as a whole, and how your downloading a game for free does not INCREASE the price of the games?

Because it simply hasn't. Game prices have been frozen at around the 40-50$ level, despite inflation for years. The same price you paid for a video game in the 1980's, is pretty much the same price your paying for a video game now. Contrast this to any other consumer product, and you will see that video games stand alone as far as prices staying the same. In some cases, they have actually gone down. I remember some 8-Bit NES games selling locally in Toys R Us for 60$ a pop. The notable distinction of the NES, is that in America - It was relatively free of piracy. At least on a wide "Average Joe" type of scale. Your argument that "No Piracy = Lower Prices" is defeated by simply looking at the actual effects on pricing for a system that was relatively free of it.

My argument isn't that pirates are hero's, but that the simple "threat" of piracy, or the ability of the average guy to pirate if he chooses - Does help to keep games and software at reasonable prices. While most fans are willing to spend 50$ for Halo 2 this week, if that price had risen with inflation, to the 90-100$ mark - You would have a majority of people looking to download it. If there was no threat whatsoever about piracy - What would there be to stop them?


Textbook bandwagon fallacy. That people in the game industry leak games I'm in no position to argue against, but assuming they do, that still doesn't make it for gamers who go ahead and play the games in the moral right.

We already covered morals :) So I won't go over that again. I will say that i'm in a rather unique position to comment on this issue, being that i've been part of, and led a number of pirate or "warez" groups since the C-64 era. Part of my job was securing these games, and while i would never go into detail - I can say quite honestly, that i've never in 15+ years had any trouble getting people in the game industry to work with me. People forget that the "Game Industry" is rather large. It's not just programmers, but interns, testers, graphics guys, the people who write manuals, workers at duplication plants, or anyone else who works in the company, or companies that have anything to do with production. I think the recent high-profile leaks only further support my statements.

Before anyone asks - I'm no longer an active pirate, which is why i'm comfortable talking about the issue. (From a legal sense) - But when i seen the demonization of some guy who just wanted to download a couple of GBA roms that chances are he would never buy on his own - I had to comment.. :)

[Berserker]

Do: Make a choice for yourself where you stand on roms, and act accordingly.

Don't: Presume to pass judgement over others who don't agree with you, while simultaneously reeking of optional hypocrisy.

[DaBargainHunta]

so take youre crusade elsewhere. if you wanna beef with me i suggest you come in person and not threaten me on a Game Collectors forums.

$%@#er
Wow, you have SERIOUS issues. You actually want an argument ON A MESSAGE BOARD to escalate into a real-life fight? Whoa, big boy, step the fuck back NOW, because that's NOT happening. I'm sorry that you hate me so much that you want to get into a physical confrontation with me, because I don't feel the same way about you. No offense, but you're not worth that to me. No one on the internet is. Just drop it.

I have no crusade. When I started this thread, I had legitimate questions that I wanted answered.

Like Mangar said, I'm being demonized for no reason. When I first started this thread, I asked about the legalities of DLing GBA roms on a "try before I buy" basis because THERE'S NOWHERE FOR ME TO RENT THEM! That's a pefectly reasonable question IMO, and I honestly don't see why people are jumping down my throat for it. Yet, all of a sudden, some of you are acting like I'm the king of GBA pirates on the internet. Hardly.

Yes, I sent someone a link to the game, but guess what - playing it on an emulator with a TINY screen DOES NOT replace the portable GBA experience. NO ONE in their right mind would suddenly decide NOT to buy the retail GBA game because they have access to it on their PC. Even a laptop isn't nearly as portable as an actual GBA. And before someone mentions flash carts, c'mon, don't be naive - anyone who has a flash cart already knows how to get roms for it, so they certainly wouldn't need that info from me or anyone else.

Just to put this issue to rest, I don't advocate piracy. I fully support the video game industry (my large collection of games for the GBA, GC, PS2, Xbox, and older-gen systems more than speaks for itself). I actually *GASP* LIKE having a real box, real instructions, and a real cart. Some of you who are quick to judge and demonize me can believe whatever you want though.

[Promophile]

damn straight you deserve abuse. and you should be fined and/or jailed for the shit you do. especially if youre telling other people how to steal.



The joys of America, is that you cannot be jailed simply for telling someone where to find GBA Roms. I'd love to fight that charge in court. :)


Aiding a criminal in a crime is illegal.

[RCM]

Gamefly rents GBA games. They have a good selection. I live on the east coast and they ship from the west coast. It takes a while. That's why i stopped renting from them. Try it if you want, I think they have free trials still.

THE ONE, THE ONLY- RCM

[DaBargainHunta]

Gamefly rents GBA games. They have a good selection. I live on the east coast and they ship from the west coast. It takes a while. That's why i stopped renting from them. Try it if you want, I think they have free trials still.

THE ONE, THE ONLY- RCM
Thanks. I've been wanting to try something like that and something like Netflix for movies. How do they work exactly?

[drdrew1469]

LOL This whole post is making me laugh. I think everyone needs to "pass the dutchie" :-P and lighten up. A special song comes to mind (1 point for the group name - easy)...

Emulate
The truth dilate
Special date
The animal we ate
Guilt debate
The edge serrate
A better rate
The youth irate
Deliberate

:P

[RCM]

Emulate
The truth dilate
Special date
The animal we ate
Guilt debate
The edge serrate
A better rate
The youth irate
Deliberate

Isn't that from Sega CD stars INXS?

THE ONE, THE ONLY- RCM

[DynastyLawyer]

Moral's are personal opinions. One persons moral decision, can be against someone elses. Half this country finds gay marriage to be immoral, while the other half does not. The same can be said of piracy, or any other pseudo-crime. Legality and Moral Values are not the same thing. Piracy is illegal and Immoral to *YOU*. To me it's just illegal. It don't make either one of us incorrect, it just means we have different moral values.


OK. Morals are only personal opinions, right? So I can murder whoever I want, steal, rape, and pilliage, and still be in the moral right? Relativity and nonsense, friend. Half of this country finds gay marriage to be immoral, the other half does not. That does not automatically make both right. That would be a contradiction. In that case, the right is going to be found in one of those opinions or a compromise.


Because it simply hasn't. Game prices have been frozen at around the 40-50$ level, despite inflation for years. The same price you paid for a video game in the 1980's, is pretty much the same price your paying for a video game now. Contrast this to any other consumer product, and you will see that video games stand alone as far as prices staying the same. In some cases, they have actually gone down. I remember some 8-Bit NES games selling locally in Toys R Us for 60$ a pop. The notable distinction of the NES, is that in America - It was relatively free of piracy. At least on a wide "Average Joe" type of scale. Your argument that "No Piracy = Lower Prices" is defeated by simply looking at the actual effects on pricing for a system that was relatively free of it.


I made an argument for no Piracy = lower prices? :eek 2: While you're burning that straw man, I don't debate that game prices have decreased. I paid around 60 to 80 bucks for RPGs back in the day. But you have yet to tell me why that "constant and lowering" price is owed to a bunch of people illegally copying the games. That was my challenge to you in my first post, which you have yet to retort to.


If there was no threat whatsoever about piracy - What would there be to stop them?




Well, there's the fact that most gamers have a finite income, and will cry foul if a game costs 300 bucks while they make the same amount of money in the space of a month...


We already covered morals

The hell we did.


I will say that i'm in a rather unique position to comment on this issue, being that i've been part of, and led a number of pirate or "warez" groups since the C-64 era. Part of my job was securing these games, and while i would never go into detail - I can say quite honestly, that i've never in 15+ years had any trouble getting people in the game industry to work with me. People forget that the "Game Industry" is rather large. It's not just programmers, but interns, testers, graphics guys, the people who write manuals, workers at duplication plants, or anyone else who works in the company, or companies that have anything to do with production. I think the recent high-profile leaks only further support my statements.

Ever get the feeling you're just running in circles?


Yes, I sent someone a link to the game, but guess what - playing it on an emulator with a TINY screen DOES NOT replace the portable GBA experience. NO ONE in their right mind would suddenly decide NOT to buy the retail GBA game because they have access to it on their PC. Even a laptop isn't nearly as portable as an actual GBA. And before someone mentions flash carts, c'mon, don't be naive - anyone who has a flash cart already knows how to get roms for it, so they certainly wouldn't need that info from me or anyone else.

I take emulation personally, because A. It's obviously a crime and B. I think people who do it are an insult to the culture of videogaming. I'd debate you on your thinking that NO ONE in their right mind would suddenly decide NOT to buy a retail GBA game because they have access to it on their PC. I've seen it happen. I do agree that it is a seperate experience, and that's why I'm largely against it. Telling someone I've beaten River City Ransom on NES and on an emulator are two largely different things. First off, you can save states on an emulator, which in many cases makes the achievement of beating a game laughable. I've seen a roommate play a game, and save state through it such that he never took a hit. Contending with River City Ransom back in the day was a different story. No rewinds, no opting out when things go wrong. Rely on the save points you are given, if any at all. Want to save your stuff? Deal with the 2000 letter password. In cases like that, playing on the emulator alters the experience significantly, and in my opinion damages it.

[RCM]

I take emulation personally, because A. It's obviously a crime

I disagree. The act of emulation is not a crime. The act of playing ROMs that you don't own on an emulator is though.


Telling someone I've beaten River City Ransom on NES and on an emulator are two largely different things. First off, you can save states on an emulator, which in many cases makes the achievement of beating a game laughable. I've seen a roommate play a game, and save state through it such that he never took a hit. Contending with River City Ransom back in the day was a different story. No rewinds, no opting out when things go wrong. Rely on the save points you are given, if any at all. Want to save your stuff? Deal with the 2000 letter password. In cases like that, playing on the emulator alters the experience significantly, and in my opinion damages it.

They are pretty much the same if you choose not to use saves and any other extra that comes with using an emulator. I hear what you're saying though.

THE ONE, THE ONLY- RCM

[SoulBlazer]

I love how those of us who try to make sane arguments for what they personaly do have gotten totally ignored by the mess this thread has turned into. ;)

And Gamefly would be okay if they had centers on the east coast. No way I'm waiting two weeks in between games, which is what my friends do.

[DynastyLawyer]

I disagree. The act of emulation is not a crime. The act of playing ROMs that you don't own on an emulator is though.


Taken from the fine legal writing of Grand Theft Auto: San Andreas, as an example: "License: Subject to this Agreement and its terms and conditions, Licensor hereby grants you the non-exclusive, non-transferable, limited right and license to use ONE copy of the Software for your personal use on a single home or portable computer."

Being in breach of contract is a crime. Even if you own the game, that doesn't excuse you playing it emulated, regardless of what the words on the street are. Sorry.

[RCM]

Taken from the fine legal writing of Grand Theft Auto: San Andreas, as an example: "License: Subject to this Agreement and its terms and conditions, Licensor hereby grants you the non-exclusive, non-transferable, limited right and license to use ONE copy of the Software for your personal use on a single home or portable computer."

Being in breach of contract is a crime. Even if you own the game, that doesn't excuse you playing it emulated, regardless of what the words on the street are. Sorry.

Ok, lets go by that and say that Rockstars licensing agreement goes for every game new and old. The actual act of emulating itself is not illegal. As a matter of fact developers use emulation themselves. Sorry

THE ONE, THE ONLY- RCM

[DynastyLawyer]

The actual act of emulating itself is not illegal. As a matter of fact developers use emulation themselves. Sorry

Of course the developers use emulation themselves. It's their property, they can do what they want with what they create. It's a pretty big change in the hypo from a person taking a copy of the game someone else has created through labor and copyrighted, and then creating copies. And by saying "emulation" I didn't say "all copying games is illegal." I quite clearly was talking about people without the rights to games copying games. How about a little intellectual charity, here?

[Berserker]

intellectual clarity > intellectual charity

[solidsharkey]

I saw this argument in passing and noticed that, like everywhere else I've seen this flare up, someone has tried to turn it into a pointless debate between moral relativism and objectivism. It's irrelevant and distracts from the simple fact that someone is taking something with the intent to deprive. That's theft, plain and simple, and it robs others of their livelihood. It's no less wrong in the eyes of the law than shoplifting. The only difference is that intellectual property rights do not rest on a natural scarcity of goods, but on artificial scarcity created through legislation or legal fiat. People like to argue that this system is inherently wrong, and that their theft is some kind of noble act of rebellion, but it seems more likely that the thief is pulling an ethos out of their ass to cover for something they'd be doing anyway. Causes tend to be more believable when they necessitate a sacrifice rather than winning their adherents free stuff.

I'd much rather these kids had the stones to say "I'm taking it because I want it and nobody can stop me" instead of spouting the same halfassed moralistic bullshit.

[Fuyukaze]

First I'd like to get one thing clear. I am a thief.

That said, I'm sure your wondering why I say this. I have downloaded both MP3's, Roms, and in a few instances movie files of various copyrighted material. I am wrong for doing this because I am stealing. Comparing theft to homosexuality? Your comparing theft to a personal way of life? You jest I hope. I may not suport homosexuality, but to consider it as wrong as stealing, is an insult and a slap to the face of every hetrosexual and homosexual alike. The biggest problem with this argument is its just an means to an excuse for their actions. I dont want to feel bad for being a thief so I'm going to make an excuse that its not wrong because I say its not wrong. Wrong is wrong and there is no way getting around it. I am a thief and am in the wrong for this. I accept this because stealing is wrong. If it was purely up the the individual, I propose that you consider this the next time someone should steal from you yourself personaly. It may prove interesting how wrong they make you feel.

[solidsharkey]

Congratulations. You're a reprehensible human being who's undermining my livelihood, but at least you have a spine.

[pixelsnpolygons]

I've done it, but usually not to play - I've done it to get screenshots. Of course it is stealing though (I don't think downloading a ROM purely for the purpose of taking a screenshot is stealing - but it is still engaging in an illegal activity as ROMs are illegal). But anyway, whether you're trying it for free for a day or a week or whatever even if you end up buying the game you're doing something illegal. I've done it a few times, sometimes I have purchased the game for real - other times I didn't. I don't beat around the bush though - if you're fucking with someone else's properties (just like if you were in their backyard just "taking a look") - if you don't have permission, you're in the wrong plain and simple.

As I said, I have done it though and will probably do it again at some point in the future. It does annoy me when people try to justify the situation. You want to do it? Fine - but it is stealing, no matter what happens after you download it. I mean, is it no longer stealing if you take a car (without permission) and then decide to return it? It doesn't matter if only a second has passed since you made that decision - it became a theft once you took it.

[BigGeorgeJohnson]

You're honestly not sure that downloading copyrighted software and playing it for free (a.k.a. STEALING) is wrong?

God bless the MP3 generation.
You might want to re-read my original post before you take my words out of context. I asked about the supposed 24-hour rule.

P.S. I don't have ANY MP3s on my PC (except for any that might've come with it), and I don't own an Apple iPod or any of those newfangled devices. Seriously.

The fact that you keep calling it the "supposed" 24-hour rule I suspect you already know the answer to your question.

Downloading ROMs and keeping them for 24 seconds, 24 hours, 24 weeks or 24 years is the same. They're all breaking the same law.


Hey Flack, Aren't you the one who reviewed the pirated version of GTA San Andreas, and I'm pretty sure I've read some other post's from you bragging about pirating games and what not. Your no better than a common thief, so maybe you oughta keep your opinion to yourself on this one. You sound very hypocritical.

[Promophile]

The one use of ROMs that I AM for is the preservation of games for future generations. For example EProm games and old PC games that were distributed on floppy WILL eventually all die. When they do having a ROM copy of these games will preserve the artists work for future generations to enjoy.

[retroman]

dont downloadload new stuff.....old stuff not on the market anymore is ok though.

[pixelsnpolygons]

Hey Flack, Aren't you the one who reviewed the pirated version of GTA San Andreas, and I'm pretty sure I've read some other post's from you bragging about pirating games and what not. Your no better than a common thief, so maybe you oughta keep your opinion to yourself on this one. You sound very hypocritical.

Well he said it is stealing - he didn't say that he wasn't guilty of it as well (although he didn't say he wasn't either). You can do something, and know that it is wrong. I think he is simply objecting to the people who do it and simply can't just admit that it is wrong. And he also stated that he planned on buying GTA: San Andreas - that he just wanted to play it early. So anyway, I don't think that he would deny that he is breaking the exact same laws that everyone else is - he's just saying there is no point in not being realistic in the situation: which all boils down to the fact that in the end it is stealing.

[Raedon]

I'm honestly not sure what the legalities are, hence why I started this thread. I legitimately wanted to know.

You're honestly not sure that downloading copyrighted software and playing it for free (a.k.a. STEALING) is wrong?

God bless the MP3 generation.

Haha! Well, this is the same generation that sat on their ass' instead of voting

[Neonsolid]

Gone.

[postulio]

I saw this argument in passing and noticed that, like everywhere else I've seen this flare up, someone has tried to turn it into a pointless debate between moral relativism and objectivism. It's irrelevant and distracts from the simple fact that someone is taking something with the intent to deprive. That's theft, plain and simple, and it robs others of their livelihood. It's no less wrong in the eyes of the law than shoplifting. The only difference is that intellectual property rights do not rest on a natural scarcity of goods, but on artificial scarcity created through legislation or legal fiat. People like to argue that this system is inherently wrong, and that their theft is some kind of noble act of rebellion, but it seems more likely that the thief is pulling an ethos out of their ass to cover for something they'd be doing anyway. Causes tend to be more believable when they necessitate a sacrifice rather than winning their adherents free stuff.

I'd much rather these kids had the stones to say "I'm taking it because I want it and nobody can stop me" instead of spouting the same halfassed moralistic bullshit.



i agree so much with this person is scary.

and i just want EVERYONE to keep something in their mind next time they steal a game (pirate, whatever): if youre playing the game, you are directly responsible for somebody who worked their freaking ass off and poured their heart and soul into something he and a team of dedicated people have brought to life to not get reimbursed as much as they should for their time. it may deter them from continueing making good games, or getting thier next great idea rejected by marketing or have them fired because their game sold bad or whatever.

if you dont give a shit about the law, or consider yourself a 'digital robin hood' or whatever, just keep in mind the people who are responsible for this thing you so easily stole. its no different than stealing a chair a carpenter slaved after and made. youre playing with people's carrears and lives.

[Mangar]

if you dont give a shit about the law, or consider yourself a 'digital robin hood' or whatever, just keep in mind the people who are responsible for this thing you so easily stole. its no different than stealing a chair a carpenter slaved after and made. youre playing with people's carrears and lives.

It's dopey self-rightous analogies like these, that always make me laugh at the anti-emulation and anti-piracy crowd. If you can't see the difference between some 14 year old kid down the block making a copy of Madden 2005 for his X-Box, and someone else stealing an actual unique finite object out of someones house - I don't know what to tell you really. Here's a hint though: The carpenter is out the entire cost of his object, while Electronic Art's CEO, Board, and top shareholders are still going to be taking limo's to work the next day.

Just for the record: You will never hear me say that piracy isn't a form of theft. It is. Plain and simple. It's stealing, and it's illegal. But being "wrong" and "immoral" i absolutely will defend, because despite what anyone here states or claims - Everyones concepts of whats moral and what's right and wrong are different. Just because *YOU* may think that little Timmy down the block with his copied Madden 2005, is the complete embodiment of all evil, and a stain on our society - Don't make it so. Breaking the law? Yes. An immoral kid who's just horribly wrong for doing so? Depends on the opinion of the person you ask. And really, that's the key word - Opinion. Try getting off the high horse.


it may deter them from continueing making good games, or getting thier next great idea rejected by marketing or have them fired because their game sold bad or whatever.

I've been listening to doom and gloom storys as to the effect of piracy since the Commodore 64 days. The result of over 20 years of piracy is that videogames have penetrated our culture in a way that many thought were impossible, we have more games being made and released then ever before, we have more companies making games then ever before - and companies are much more profitable then they ever thought possible. Sorry if i don't jump on to the "Piracy destroys the industry!" bandwagon just yet. It's kind of hard in the face of record sales, and a Halo 2 ad campaign that is being run on every form of popular media that I can think of. You may not like pirates, and that's fine - But you will need a little more evidence that pirates deter game creation before i buy into it. With games like friggin "Mall Tycoon" i'm presently of the opinion that NO idea whatsoever gets turned down. :)



Taken from the fine legal writing of Grand Theft Auto: San Andreas, as an example: "License: Subject to this Agreement and its terms and conditions, Licensor hereby grants you the non-exclusive, non-transferable, limited right and license to use ONE copy of the Software for your personal use on a single home or portable computer."

Being in breach of contract is a crime. Even if you own the game, that doesn't excuse you playing it emulated, regardless of what the words on the street are. Sorry.

Unless you sign a contract agreeing to those terms - They are irrelevant. IE: Not binding in a court of law. Even if you signed and mailed it in, unless you have a stamp from a notary - It wouldn't be binding. U.S Copyright law allows backups to be made for personal use. A silly disclaimer from some company looking out for it's own interests don't change this.


I take emulation personally, because A. It's obviously a crime and B. I think people who do it are an insult to the culture of videogaming.

Well no - It's not actually. The very act of emulation itself is not a crime. However, you can commit a crime by performing the act of emulation. If i play emulated games which i already own, it's not a crime. If i play games which i don't already own - It is. Like piracy, i don't find this to be "immoral" or "wrong." But illegal? Absolutely. As to the culture of videogaming? (shrug) I'm not big into emulation, in that i prefer the original units and systems. But i'd certainly argue that it's the future. Even i'm considering building an emulator box for the TV in the living room. I don't look at it as an insult to the culture of videogaming, but rather a more conveniant and accessible way of enjoying classic systems without all the clutter and mess that having 27 consoles all hooked up at the same time creates. If that makes me an "insulting criminal." I can live with that. :)

[Flack]

Hey Flack, Aren't you the one who reviewed the pirated version of GTA San Andreas, and I'm pretty sure I've read some other post's from you bragging about pirating games and what not. Your no better than a common thief, so maybe you oughta keep your opinion to yourself on this one. You sound very hypocritical.

Nice try, tiger. I sleep just fine at night with my downloading habits, and rarely waste 1's and 0's trying to justify what I do or don't do with my own bandwidth. Have I downloaded games before to try them out, to write a review, or take on the road with me? You bet. Do I sit around trying to justify it to a bunch of people by telling them that I'm actually helping the industry by stealing their software or that Jesus will forgive me if I delete all my digitzed sins within 24 hours? Please.

[RCM]

Quote:
The actual act of emulating itself is not illegal. As a matter of fact developers use emulation themselves. Sorry


Of course the developers use emulation themselves. It's their property, they can do what they want with what they create. It's a pretty big change in the hypo from a person taking a copy of the game someone else has created through labor and copyrighted, and then creating copies. And by saying "emulation" I didn't say "all copying games is illegal." I quite clearly was talking about people without the rights to games copying games. How about a little intellectual charity, here?

You made a general statement that emulation is illegal. You're wrong, you just admitted it. You quite clearly said that emulation was illegal. If you meant more that's fine. No need to argue this anymore.

I had been under the impression that one could make a backup copy of an orginal as long as you actually owned the original. It's something worth looking into.

THE ONE, THE ONLY- RCM

[Cauterize]

anyone who claims they have never used a rom is a down right liar!

I didnt use one till august

but your really young, so it doesnt really count for u :P

[postulio]

i never said it destroys the industry.

i said that it prevents many good games from being made.

the industry will never die, too many rich companies are invovled that gain much more money then they lose because of all the crap they turn out they are bound to sell some.

considering only 30% or so of games being made today are actually GOOD, its a shame, because many are cancelled because they are new franchises and the CEO think they wont sell. they know that more money will be made from Tomb Raider 8 even though it was pirated than from a new quirky game that already has a small gamer base.

youre pulling thoughts and ideas out of your ass, while i am actually involved in this everyday. trust me. it hurts us all.

[Cauterize]

mods lock this topic, its going out of control!
stupid arguements, the world needs love!

[LazingBlazers]

This thread is pretty funny.

I'd just like to say that Mangar hit it straight on the head with a sledgehammer.

Another point that may or may not have been touched upon is peoples' monetary situation. If your well to do buttocks can afford to constantly blow $30, $40, $50 at a time on stuff you may or may not like, more power to you. But keep in mind that there are still some blue collar, working class people left in this country. You've got to look out for number 1 first and foremost. But you know what, only the people who possess ingenuity do the stuff in discussion anyway. Show me the non-biased, third party study where an industry has been brought to an end because of this. It's been done with everything, and I think it's still a huge minority.

[DynastyLawyer]

Unless you sign a contract agreeing to those terms - They are irrelevant. IE: Not binding in a court of law. Even if you signed and mailed it in, unless you have a stamp from a notary - It wouldn't be binding. U.S Copyright law allows backups to be made for personal use. A silly disclaimer from some company looking out for it's own interests don't change this.


Wrong again. You can create a binding contract without signing anything, as long as it's not in the statute of frauds. Very often such contracts have clauses of behavior on your part that MAKES you assent to such conditions. Back to the grand theft auto example: "By opening the software, installing, and/or using the software and any other materials included with the software, you hearby accept the terms of the license with Rockstar Games, Inc." Is it legally fucked up? Yes. Are videogamers forced to pretty much throw their rights away to play their games? Yup. But if you don't want to do that, you can return the game or not play it at all.


You made a general statement that emulation is illegal. You're wrong, you just admitted it. You quite clearly said that emulation was illegal. If you meant more that's fine. No need to argue this anymore.


If you have to make place unusual stress on a word and draw a conclusion on the basis of that stress to make you feel like you are winning an argument, I see no further reason to discuss anything with you. That sort of "reasoning" is a fallacy, distracting to the issues, and tells me that you have no interest in actually considering the pros and cons of this issue. I shall waste my time no further. Viva La Intarweb!


Another point that may or may not have been touched upon is peoples' monetary situation. If your well to do buttocks can afford to constantly blow $30, $40, $50 at a time on stuff you may or may not like, more power to you. But keep in mind that there are still some blue collar, working class people left in this country. You've got to look out for number 1 first and foremost. But you know what, only the people who possess ingenuity do the stuff in discussion anyway. Show me the non-biased, third party study where an industry has been brought to an end because of this. It's been done with everything, and I think it's still a huge minority.

::Departs to car-jack Audi TT::

[LazingBlazers]

::Departs to car-jack Audi TT::

LOL If you hold the belief that that's what it takes to fulfill your wants, more power to ya; but if you can't differentiate a non-violent crime from a violent one you should assume the position of The Thinker for a good while.

Oh, and just for the record, my "pirating" consists of playing TurboGrafx-16 (of which I own the entire US collection and a good amount of Japanese imports) and arcade machine (of which I own none because of a case of I can't afford as many as I want, with a side of a space situation) emulation on my computer. In my personal regard, that makes me less of a hardened criminal and more of a cheap bastard. In my personal instance, you could argue all day on how I may be taking income away from the arcade machine store and the companys who produce the games, and you may have a valid point, but it doesn't change the fact that even if there were no emulation of arcade machines I still would not own one.

[Captain Wrong]

Why are we flogging this dead horse again?

What's next? Another FF VII sux/rox thread? Sheesh.

[BigGeorgeJohnson]

Hey Flack, Aren't you the one who reviewed the pirated version of GTA San Andreas, and I'm pretty sure I've read some other post's from you bragging about pirating games and what not. Your no better than a common thief, so maybe you oughta keep your opinion to yourself on this one. You sound very hypocritical.

Nice try, tiger. I sleep just fine at night with my downloading habits, and rarely waste 1's and 0's trying to justify what I do or don't do with my own bandwidth. Have I downloaded games before to try them out, to write a review, or take on the road with me? You bet. Do I sit around trying to justify it to a bunch of people by telling them that I'm actually helping the industry by stealing their software or that Jesus will forgive me if I delete all my digitzed sins within 24 hours? Please.

Seems like the pot's callin' the kettle black.

[Flack]

Hey Flack, Aren't you the one who reviewed the pirated version of GTA San Andreas, and I'm pretty sure I've read some other post's from you bragging about pirating games and what not. Your no better than a common thief, so maybe you oughta keep your opinion to yourself on this one. You sound very hypocritical.

Nice try, tiger. I sleep just fine at night with my downloading habits, and rarely waste 1's and 0's trying to justify what I do or don't do with my own bandwidth. Have I downloaded games before to try them out, to write a review, or take on the road with me? You bet. Do I sit around trying to justify it to a bunch of people by telling them that I'm actually helping the industry by stealing their software or that Jesus will forgive me if I delete all my digitzed sins within 24 hours? Please.

Seems like the pot's callin' the kettle black.

Instead of tossing out tired cliche's and trying to get the last word in, why don't you reread this thread and find where I told anybody not to pirate?

Go ahead, I'll wait.

[postulio]

::Departs to car-jack Audi TT::

LOL If you hold the belief that that's what it takes to fulfill your wants, more power to ya; but if you can't differentiate a non-violent crime from a violent one you should assume the position of The Thinker for a good while.


This thread is pretty funny.

I'd just like to say that Mangar hit it straight on the head with a sledgehammer.

Another point that may or may not have been touched upon is peoples' monetary situation. If your well to do buttocks can afford to constantly blow $30, $40, $50 at a time on stuff you may or may not like, more power to you. But keep in mind that there are still some blue collar, working class people left in this country. You've got to look out for number 1 first and foremost. But you know what, only the people who possess ingenuity do the stuff in discussion anyway. Show me the non-biased, third party study where an industry has been brought to an end because of this. It's been done with everything, and I think it's still a huge minority.






dude are you retarded or something?

in the eyes of the law its all teh same. youre a theif, you will be jailed and or fined. stealing a car isnt violent either. If you cant afford it, you dont deserve to play it.

Stealing is Stealing dipshit. you can sugercoat it all you want, but if you commit the crime, there are consequence to be had. dont expect ot be pitied either. i hope you pirating bastards all get caught.

[Ed Oscuro]

Haha! Well, this is the same generation that sat on their ass' instead of voting
Yup, 17% of 18-29ers voted this time around.

Though I'm not sure that more people = better results, as this is the AMERICA! that encourages people to believe they know everything when upwards of 60% of what people "know" was delivered via sound bite and gray/black political propaganda.

Moving back OT...why are people attacking Flack? Viciously too?

I don't see how it's hypocritical to say piracy = stealing. Especially as Flack no doubt owns legal copies of any game he's tried out "pirated;" I think if you asked him you'd find out he was curious to see what it played like as opposed to the real thing. I shouldn't speak for him, though!

[Promophile]

Haha! Well, this is the same generation that sat on their ass' instead of voting
Yup, 17% of 18-29ers voted this time around.

Though I'm not sure that more people = better results, as this is the AMERICA! that encourages people to believe they know everything when upwards of 60% of what people "know" was delivered via sound bite and gray/black political propaganda.


My thoughts EXACTLY. I would say that the average person is too stupid to vote. You shouldn't vote because of your feelings religion, or morals, you should vote for who is BETTER for the MAJORITY of AMERICANS.

[Ed Oscuro]

Well, I think that voting on religion or morals should be acceptable, if that's what seperated the candidates. That wasn't the big thiing seperating the candidates this time around, though (I must admit that I don't feel W. was really that much of a choice for religion or morals, either...)

[gleavepaul]

Because it simply hasn't. Game prices have been frozen at around the 40-50$ level, despite inflation for years. The same price you paid for a video game in the 1980's, is pretty much the same price your paying for a video game now. Contrast this to any other consumer product, and you will see that video games stand alone as far as prices staying the same. In some cases, they have actually gone down. I remember some 8-Bit NES games selling locally in Toys R Us for 60$ a pop. The notable distinction of the NES, is that in America - It was relatively free of piracy. At least on a wide "Average Joe" type of scale. Your argument that "No Piracy = Lower Prices" is defeated by simply looking at the actual effects on pricing for a system that was relatively free of it.

My argument isn't that pirates are hero's, but that the simple "threat" of piracy, or the ability of the average guy to pirate if he chooses - Does help to keep games and software at reasonable prices. While most fans are willing to spend 50$ for Halo 2 this week, if that price had risen with inflation, to the 90-100$ mark - You would have a majority of people looking to download it. If there was no threat whatsoever about piracy - What would there be to stop them?


Not so sure on that....
I think the reason that game prices are frozen is more to do with the number of games being sold today ie more games sold equal less price per unit






As for my 2 pence - In the eyes of the law its wrong. Nuff Said.

[Ed Oscuro]

The game industry is highly competitive, and everybody's hoping that excellent product + "right" price point = MASSIVE volume (we're talking a sizeable percentage of the population of the U.S. buying copies of today's hits, people!) to offset costs.

[soniko_karuto]

mods lock this topic, its going out of control!
stupid arguements, the world needs love!

i think the one that needs love is you.

and i'm in the mood of love givvin'.


want some? :drinking: