Interesting Read About What its Like to Work for EA

[Griking]

Link (http://www.livejournal.com/users/ea_spouse/)

I'm sure its a bit biased but its interesting none the less.

I used to love their games back in the 80s but God I hate what EA has become.

[calthaer]

That blog-esque journal entry thing was awesome, and is alone reason to boycott the tyrants.

[TRM]

Yes, that was a very interesting read to say the least. When I started taking programming classes in college, I went through Hell, having to pull late nights to try to get simple programs up and running. 75% of our class would be busting code down at the lab, for hour upon hour, skipping meals and everything else. And my experiences are only college experiences, stuff that many programmers probably experience. I can hardly imagine what those poor folks are going through, and I feel very bad for them.

I don't like the games that EA has been putting out as of late, so it doesn't bother me to quit buying their goods.

[DaBargainHunta]

Pretty good stuff, but aren't those the basic realities of pretty much every video game company? I've always heard that people in the industry should expect brutally long hours as par for the course.

The lack of overtime benefits, etc. is kind of disturbing though. Surely EA can afford to treat its workers a little bit better than that.

[evilmess]

I read that today too.

Hopefully that link will make the rounds and get EA's attention so that they can address those issues and hopefully create a better working enviroment for the employees.

Somebody /. that page! :rocker:

[tholly]

wow....that is really shitty treatment of employees....but its not that big of a surprise

[Anexanhume]

To TRM,
in the professional world, all algorithms and techniques are resolved in the design phase. You merely need to implement the code in the coding phase, so it's not quite as tough as the coding we encounter in college life.

[MegaDrive20XX]

This makes me hate EA more now then i already do :)

[Joelius]

My allegiance to all ESPN sports games has now vastly improved more...but im sorry, i still have to play The Sims 2 :(

[Ruffie]

That's an interesting read. I cannot really say what it is like to work for EA or if those conditions are prevalent in every part of their company. The folks I know of on the Ultima Online team have never reported such misgivings publically, but I do know they work long hours, and they do so seemingly with eagerness. They also get most weekends off, except on occasions where an internet-related crisis calls their attention, and often in those situations they manage things from home.

All I can do is tell you what I saw for myself when I visited the EA offices in Redwood, California, back in September for the Ultima Online Community Day event. They flew about 25 of us UO community members out there, put us up in a luxurious hotel for 4 days/3 nights, and gave us a tour of the place.

They have several buildings with lush green areas to relax. Their cafeteria has a chef and an amazing array of food to choose from, including a pasta station. In the same building as the 2-level cafeteria is a workout area with machines, ping-pong tables, arcade machines, mountain bike rentals, a huge indoor basketball court, plus rooms for yoga or tie bo or whatever.

Another building had an inner courtyard (fully covered with a roof) that had a chess/checkers area, a small shop where employees can rent (free) any game (not just EA because they need to keep an eye on the competition), more arcade areas and pool tables, and some of their own games hooked up to these huge comfy chairs.

They employees I saw, other than the UO ones, were dining, relaxing, and enjoying all these things and didn't seem stressed out.

Again, this is what I saw out there, and what I've been told by the EA employees of the UO team, most former OSI employees who moved out from Austin Texas earlier this year when EA fully assimilated that studio. I'm not debating the validity of that report, just offering another viewpoint. If those conditions are true, I probably wouldn't work there either.

Ruffie

http://home.columbus.rr.com/turbwaters/TurbWaters/Combat/IMAG009.JPG (http://home.columbus.rr.com/turbwaters/index.html)

[GunPanther]

I actually believe that.

I've run into a few people within the past few years who happened to have worked at Electronic Arts at some point.

I tell you, NONE of them ever had good things to say about working at EA, aside from the fact that they were either working on yet another Madden title or one of the numerous Sims spinoffs. Sure, they were proud of their contribution to such a lucrative franchise like Madden, but they never spoke highly of working at EA in general.


It's funny though. Each and every Madden game is NEVER worth anything 1 year after it's release. Last I heard, Madden 2002 had a going buyback price of $0.67 from EB Games. LOL Then again, EB Games is another tyrant like business, but I won't get into that. There's room for that in another post.







:rockets: GunPanther :2gunfire:

[Half Japanese]

http://img29.exs.cx/img29/1166/deadhorse1.jpg

[zmweasel]

Pretty good stuff, but aren't those the basic realities of pretty much every video game company? I've always heard that people in the industry should expect brutally long hours as par for the course.

They are, and they should. 90-hour work weeks have existed in the game industry almost since the beginning. Howard Scott Warshaw didn't create E.T. in 40-hour work weeks.

Game companies have no need to change their policies, because there's an endless supply of talented young men willing to work for peanuts just to be part of the game industry. It would take the unionization of the game industry to force change, but that will never happen.

If one needs an excuse to justify one's misplaced hatred of EA, this isn't it.

-- Z.

[YoshiM]

Doh! I didn't see this topic when I posted mine. To keep with continuity, here's a link to another live journal from a person who was canned by EA "for doing his job":

http://www.livejournal.com/users/joestraitiff/368.html

[Ed Oscuro]

To TRM,
in the professional world, all algorithms and techniques are resolved in the design phase. You merely need to implement the code in the coding phase, so it's not quite as tough as the coding we encounter in college life.
But keeping the eyes open and the fingers moving...

[Anexanhume]

To TRM,
in the professional world, all algorithms and techniques are resolved in the design phase. You merely need to implement the code in the coding phase, so it's not quite as tough as the coding we encounter in college life.
But keeping the eyes open and the fingers moving...

Yeah, it's definitely the quantity O_O

[zmweasel]

They are, and they should. 90-hour work weeks have existed in the game industry almost since the beginning. Howard Scott Warshaw didn't create E.T. in 40-hour work weeks.

The difference back then was the programmers *wanted* to work that much, b/c they loved their jobs that much. Same with HSW and E.T. - he volunteered to do it, and being paid a vast sum of money was the movitation for working basically around the clock for 5 weeks. Now, programmers don't have a choice, and they're not paid vasts sums of money. I think the only motivation is that it looks good on your resume, especially if you're just starting out. I'm sure most EA employees don't plan on being there long-term, and regard EA as 'programmer initiation', and not much else.

Most younger folks in the modern industry are just as enthusiastic about their jobs, and just as willing to work insane hours, as the folks of the Golden Age. You only need to attend Game Developers Conference or read an issue of Game Developer to feel their energy.

The EA dude's "problem," as he admitted, is that he was an older fella who put his wife and children ahead of his job. Nothing wrong with that, of course, but game development isn't the career for someone who desires 40-hour work weeks and quality time with family and friends.

Also, programmers are among the highest-paid personnel in the game industry. The EA dude, for example, mentioned his six-figure salary. That puts him at the top of the game-industry pay scale, and makes it hard for me to feel any sympathy for his situation. (It's not the kind of loot a first-rate Golden Age programmer pulled down, but then, it takes a village to produce a modern game.)

-- Z.

[Ed Oscuro]

OLOL I FOUNDED TEH PICTUAR POST BUTTAN
Is a picture worth a thousand words?

Is it really? Is a cliched and really not even relevant dumb picture post worth the two seconds it takes to find the URL in that text file you've probably got stored away? Heh.

Back on topic...I understand your point, Zach, and I think that's fine, but all the same - this sort of attitude towards development is making workers perform at less than optimal levels. I tend to agree with the "spouse" in the article above (who seems to know far too much about the industry...) in that failing to give a cut of the profits for overtime or giving adequate recovery time after the crunch is not a viable road for the industry to take. Sure, I suppose EA views these as fat times, and they're simply squeezing the labor market for all they can.

I must be biased from all those 3DRealms Camera Captioning contests or something +P

[zmweasel]

OLOL I FOUNDED TEH PICTUAR POST BUTTAN
Is a picture worth a thousand words?

Is it really? Is a cliched and really not even relevant dumb picture post worth the two seconds it takes to find the URL in that text file you've probably got stored away? Heh.

Back on topic...I understand your point, Zach, and I think that's fine, but all the same - this sort of attitude towards development is making workers perform at less than optimal levels. I tend to agree with the "spouse" in the article above (who seems to know far too much about the industry...) in that failing to give a cut of the profits for overtime or giving adequate recovery time after the crunch is not a viable road for the industry to take. Sure, I suppose EA views these as fat times, and they're simply squeezing the labor market for all they can.

I must be biased from all those 3DRealms Camera Captioning contests or something +P

But it's not just EA squeezing its employees. It's par for the game-industry course. I bailed on my Working Designs gig for the same reason the EA dude was fired from his gig; the psychotic work weeks were killing me. I don't see anything in his story that's out of the ordinary, or that makes EA any worse than any other publisher or developer.

Without a union, it will always be easier for game companies to let go of unenthusiastic or unhappy employees and replace them with doe-eyed, lower-salaried programmers, artists, and testers. I'm not saying that's right, but that's the way it is, and it will take an extraordinary turn of events for it to change. Game Developer recently ran an article comparing the game industry to the movie "Logan's Run," if that gives you an idea of the extent of the problem.

Jason Rubin, formerly of Naughty Dog, has hinted at trying to form a union, and I'd love to see him make a run at it.

And I agree with you that the "spouse" is unusually knowledgable about the biz.

-- Z.

[punkoffgirl]

Nothing wrong with that, of course, but game development isn't the career for someone who desires 40-hour work weeks and quality time with family and friends.

Why isn't it? Why does game development HAVE to entail weeks and weeks of insane hours?

[zmweasel]

Nothing wrong with that, of course, but game development isn't the career for someone who desires 40-hour work weeks and quality time with family and friends.

Why isn't it? Why does game development HAVE to entail weeks and weeks of insane hours?

Because it would take three or four years to develop a game instead of one or two, and the result would suffer for being at the low end of the technological curve. Look at the reviews of Galleon and Daikatana. Games have to ship in a timely fashion if they're going to compete. And that's not even counting the franchises with a new iteration every year, such as Madden or Tony Hawk.

Also, it would cost twice as much to develop a game if your employees were on the payroll for twice as long. Development costs for the PS3, Xenon, and GameWhatever will be much greater than the costs for the current generation of hardware. No company will be eager to double those costs.

And there's the aforementioned non-union issue. If left unchecked, with precious few exceptions, employers will work their employees to death. Game companies, fast-food franchises, et cetera. And because the game industry is such an exciting field, it's very easy to recruit twentysomethings who are willing to dedicate themselves, body and soul, to their jobs. When they get older and wiser, they become expendable. (It's much the same in the game-journalism field, incidentally.)

-- Z.

[jdc]

I used to spend 70 hours a week with a controller in my hand. It was a cool way to make a living and the money was killer. I didn't get to see much sunshine and things that I used to do were taking a backseat to video games. I bailed, people called me nuts to leave a dream job, and I'm happier now. Games are fun again because I'm playing them for me, not for a living.

It's the same as any workplace. If it gets to be that it's not for you, then move on. It takes a lot to spend years and years in that industry. You just burnout.

[Ed Oscuro]

But it's not just EA squeezing its employees. It's par for the game-industry course. I bailed on my Working Designs gig for the same reason the EA dude was fired from his gig; the psychotic work weeks were killing me. I don't see anything in his story that's out of the ordinary, or that makes EA any worse than any other publisher or developer.
Again, totally my fault for making a distinction between EA and the industry - you're right, it's not warranted.

I understand my post was also a bit less than argumentative; I agree that unionizing is the way to reduce the problem but given society's anti-union bent of mind, and the apparent ease of simply employing new people, it's not likely to happen for a long time.


Game Developer recently ran an article comparing the game industry to the movie "Logan's Run," if that gives you an idea of the extent of the problem.
Good god...yeah, that does it for me.

[Iron Draggon]

Well I have to agree with EA Spouse, the gaming industry is DIRTY FILTHY STINKING ROTTEN RICH, especially EA, so JUST HIRE SOME MORE PEOPLE! They're gonna be constantly hiring people anyway, so why not have a large enough team to get the job done at the rate they want it done at, without having to work a small handful of underpaid people to death? And I have to agree with the other former EA guy too, make the damned CEO's turn loose of all the luxuries for doing NOTHING but working the workers to death, if they don't see how they can afford to hire more people! It's simple logic!

This is what's wrong with corporate America today. Almost ALL businesses operate like this. All the CEO's & VIP's do NOTHING but play golf and take their extended vacations for MONTHS at a time, and they make THE MOST money for it, while the workers who actually do all the WORK are SLAVES! They all want all their employees to be married to their jobs, like their jobs are the greatest thing that ever happened to them, when the truth is their jobs are THE WORST thing that ever happened to them! I've lived that awful farce myself, for far more years than I cared to, and if there's one thing that I don't miss about not working full time anymore, it's all the SLAVERY! Sure, I miss all the huge paychecks, but it's just not worth it!

But then that's what all the Republicans in this country are doing for you! THEY make all the unfair rules and all the real money, and YOU make all the sacrifices and the insulting wages that don't even really get you by, so they can stay RICH and you can stay POOR! It's the American way alright! Just EXPLOIT the poor and PAMPER the rich! I say it's time for a REVOLUTION!

[FantasiaWHT]

Yeah, it sucks, but the worker could do something constructive that might make a difference in his life instead of bitching about how bad it is on the interweb.

Sick of people who don't take responsibility for how they live their life. If you don't want to work those kinds of horus for that kind of pay you don't, simple as that. If more people had that attitude, game companies would be FORCED to chagne their policies because they couldn't keep workers.

[Ed Oscuro]

Of course, you can be sure everything's much better in Japan. ROFL

[zmweasel]

Well I have to agree with EA Spouse, the gaming industry is DIRTY FILTHY STINKING ROTTEN RICH, especially EA, so JUST HIRE SOME MORE PEOPLE! They're gonna be constantly hiring people anyway, so why not have a large enough team to get the job done at the rate they want it done at, without having to work a small handful of underpaid people to death? And I have to agree with the other former EA guy too, make the damned CEO's turn loose of all the luxuries for doing NOTHING but working the workers to death, if they don't see how they can afford to hire more people! It's simple logic!

I wouldn't call most modern development teams "a handful of people." Certainly not the groups working on triple-A titles. It's that an insane amount of work goes into the creation of a modern video game.

Testers aren't exactly rolling in the Benjamins, but most artists and programmers are decently compensated. The fired EA guy was pulling in a six-figure salary, which hardly puts him into the "underpaid" bracket.

Assigning more personnel to the development of a game doesn't necessarily speed up the process; past a certain point, it can slow it down even more.

-- Z.

[lendelin]

I read the two reports (also the report of the guy who was fired for which YoshiM posted the link)

I understand that a job in the game industry is not a job in the civil service; I understand that these kind of jobs aren't jobs at a Universtity with tenure; I understand that jobs in the entertainment indusrtry driven by creativity, deadlines, enthusiasm, boring programming, excitement and routine require flexible hours; exceptional situations in which a game is in the final stages of development require employees who don't leave at 5.01 pm becasue they officially work until 5pm.

I have no understanding, however, when the exception becomes a systematic, calculated rule of cost development at the expense of employees. There is a fine line between enthusiasm for your work and the systematic exploitation of workers and employees by employers who always have the leverage becasue they are the job creators. Everyone of us has a work life and a private life. Husbands, wives, kids and hobbies are as important for self-fulfillment as is the work for which we have a passion.

I don't know if the reports are the rule or unfortunate exceptrions. Even if they are isolated incidents, the leverage of employers has to be balanced by strong unions for these isolated incidents.

I have more of a European perspective about the issue. I believe in strong labor unions, probably becasue I come from a country in which labor unions are strong and not tainted by political corruption in the past (corporatist systems in which basically the State, peak labor unions, and employer associations hammer out social policies and labor regulations). I know that the history of labor unions in America is different, and a "voluntaristic" system is the credo.

If given the opportunity and if there is need, employers like game developers and publishers, can push employees to the edge of exploitation. A strong unionazation is the answer.

I don't see a basic fundamental problem to introduce strict regulations for the entertainment industry compared to other business branches. My brother is an engineer at Mercedes Benz, does reserach, does car design, has a lot of enthusiasm for his work, it is creative, and often the pressure of deadlines is there; but to require 90 hours work a week, that he's "available" at 10pm in the evening is just plain nuts.

There is a fine line between flexibility and exploitation.

If there are deadline problems, time pressures, cost calculations, and unforeseeable problems, these are problems the EMPLOYER has to work out in a realistic schedule based on realistic cost calculations. To increase productivity, efficiency, lower the costs per unit, and keep schedules, are the tasks of a good management. It can never never be a calculated and systematic excuse to get more and more work out of your employees. It is calculated hyppocracy in the end.

EA certainly has experience developing and publishing games, they are not a small development firm, they are the most successfull game developer today with big profit margins, they are as powerful as Time Warner AOL; and if a game developer with such experience applies these kind of exploitative rules, it is a systematic effort to increase profit margins at the expense of employees. Nothing else. It is unacceptable. More hours, even for salaried work, require regulations to be adequately compensated.

[FantasiaWHT]

Just read the account of the EA employee who was fired, missed it the first time through.

The guy had it coming. Reading through it I just keep wondering to myself why he didn't quit, and instead sat and waited until he was fired. If you aren't going to take control of your own life, I have no pity to waste on you.

[Iron Draggon]

Of course, you can be sure everything's much better in Japan. ROFL

LOL True that! I bet that Sony makes EA look like a real sweeheart employer!

And actually, now that I think about it, none of these people in the games industry would want to be in the medical profession. Doctors, Nurses, EMT's, all work the same kinds of hours and are constantly "on call". But then they DO get comp time, and even have on site sleeping areas, so maybe they just need to talk to some people in the medical profession. I'm sure that anyone with a degree in medicine would agree that those conditions are unhealthy.

[DigitalSpace]

I was checking out the news at Gamespot and came across this:

EA workers readying class action lawsuit against EA (http://www.gamespot.com/news/2004/11/11/news_6112998.html)

[punkoffgirl]

Also, it would cost twice as much to develop a game if your employees were on the payroll for twice as long. Development costs for the PS3, Xenon, and GameWhatever will be much greater than the costs for the current generation of hardware. No company will be eager to double those costs.

It shouldn't cost double. After all, they're forcing people to work the same amount of hours still, by putting two weeks worth of work into one. They SHOULD still be getting paid for the work, regardless of the time frame it's spread out over.

[zmweasel]

Also, it would cost twice as much to develop a game if your employees were on the payroll for twice as long. Development costs for the PS3, Xenon, and GameWhatever will be much greater than the costs for the current generation of hardware. No company will be eager to double those costs.

It shouldn't cost double. After all, they're forcing people to work the same amount of hours still, by putting two weeks worth of work into one. They SHOULD still be getting paid for the work, regardless of the time frame it's spread out over.

This lawsuit covers what you're talking about. The employees involved (which seem to be mostly artists) are claiming "unpaid overtime," and also claim they were improperly classified as exempt from OT.

If the courts rule in the employees' favor, there will be major repercussions in the U.S. game biz. I can easily foresee third-party publishers reducing themselves to in-house skeleton crews, and outsourcing most of their work to foreign developers and freelancers who are grateful for any income at all.

-- Z.

[kevincure]

Iron Dragoon...medical professionals actually have a ridiculously low rate of "job satisfaction", and I'm sure the hours have something to do with it. I think a recent survey I read said 40% of doctors were "satisfied" or "very satisfied" with their job when they were 5 years out of med school; the rate for PhD economists is around 90%.

Zach...the EA producer didn't say he made six-figs, but rather than he got six-figs in compensation just for moving. I'm going to assume that this means EA did something like pay his down payment when he moved to CA - it's pretty common in some companies for senior staff to have some of their housing costs paid by the company if they're transferred to a home market like Calif. or Boston.

And yeah, the hours are ridiculous. Is it any wonder than independent developers keep sprouting up? It's tough to name big-name developers who stayed with one of the majors - Spector, Meier, the guys from Gran Turismo, Rubin, Molyneux all work for themselves.

I tend to believe that the market holds the solution, though. If there are so many talented developers willing to work 40h a week for half their 80h/week pay, then some company with smart management will hire these guys. If you're an average-talent artist with only a few years of experience and expect to make high five-figs working 40h a week making videogames, you're living on another planet as far as I'm concerned.

[kevincure]

(One last thing, in response to zmeston's post right above): The labor costs in the US/JAP are high. It makes sense to have some code/art done overseas (or entire games in some cases, such as Shanghai's Splinter Cell). But I don't think we'll see massive exportation of game development because 1) good games tend to be developed by people who have played many videogames themselves, which isn't the case in many places outside Us/JAP/EU, and 2) programmers in India, for instance, can make more money doing database development and other tasks where no cultural barrier exists. The stock of people capable of making good games isn't massive, and entertainment tends to be tied to culture at some level. There's a reason why the US movie industry, despite massive costs, still makes movies in the US/Canada.

[Hep038]

This is what's wrong with corporate America today. Almost ALL businesses operate like this. All the CEO's & VIP's do NOTHING but play golf and take their extended vacations for MONTHS at a time, and they make THE MOST money for it, while the workers who actually do all the WORK are SLAVES!

I know I am going to get flamed for this but here it goes.

Do you personally know any VP,CEO or CFO's? Yeah they make a lot of money and get a lot of perks but they take all the risk. Don't believe me? I have worked for two companies that have went under, both times I was friends with one of the CEO's and kept in touch with the other. Now after both companies went under I found jobs with in a couple of months making the same or more as the previous job. Working for a company that went bankrupt on my resume does not hurt my chance of getting a new job. As for the former CEO's? it took them a few years each to get another job. With the first one our company had its funding pulled because of the shareholders decision, not his. But none the less no one wanted to touch him because he was a CEO's of a company that went under. The second, A bad product was pushed through testing, because the engineers could not meet the production date they promised. Bad product goes out company get a bad Rep, company goes under. Again did the CEO know the Engineers were covering up problems to make the ship date? No. Was he responsible? Yes and he still carries that weight around his neck when he applies for a job. Were they republicans ? I have no idea ( that was a joke). The day people stop lining up to work for EA they will have to change there policy, until then they are working the situation to there advantage.

[zmweasel]

(One last thing, in response to zmeston's post right above): The labor costs in the US/JAP are high. It makes sense to have some code/art done overseas (or entire games in some cases, such as Shanghai's Splinter Cell). But I don't think we'll see massive exportation of game development because 1) good games tend to be developed by people who have played many videogames themselves, which isn't the case in many places outside Us/JAP/EU, and 2) programmers in India, for instance, can make more money doing database development and other tasks where no cultural barrier exists. The stock of people capable of making good games isn't massive, and entertainment tends to be tied to culture at some level. There's a reason why the US movie industry, despite massive costs, still makes movies in the US/Canada.

But movie studios don't make most of their films (or scripted television shows) in the United States. If anything, big-budget productions are MORE likely to shoot in foreign lands--The Matrix (Australia), Star Wars (Africa), The Lord of the Rings (New Zealand), and Titanic (Mexico), to name a few examples.

Your pairing of Canada and the U.S. is cheating, since production costs there are, despite the weak U.S. dollar, considerably less than in the States. That's why many low-budget syndicated TV shows shoot in Canada.

I agree that Indian programmers probably wouldn't make for great game developers, but development studios in dirt-poor eastern European nations have already produced some solid PC games, and I can easily them getting much more work if the EA employees win their lawsuit and establish a payroll precedent. Since artists are now the most expensive portion of game development, outsourcing that department would make the most financial sense.

And there's still the route of hiring talented freelancers for one-shot deals instead of building a crew of in-house employees. As you point out, the most talented developers usually bolt in-house gigs and form their own development studios anyway.

Also, I don't agree that someone needs to have played a lot of games in order to design a good game. The Golden Age programmers and designers were making it up as they went along, and they did pretty okay. I would argue that the industry desperately needs MORE people who haven't played lots of video games, and who can bring new ideas into the biz.

-- Z.

[Ed Oscuro]

Also, I don't agree that someone needs to have played a lot of games in order to design a good game. The Golden Age programmers and designers were making it up as they went along, and they did pretty okay. I would argue that the industry desperately needs MORE people who haven't played lots of video games, and who can bring new ideas into the biz.
Indeed...a lot of their inspiration came right out of '60s - '70s culture. It'll be interesting to see what sorts of games folks on the subcontinent will come out with - even though they may be tainted by American influence.

[SoulBlazer]

I can understand a small company claiming that their people ar exempt from Overtime pay. But this is EA we're talking about here, folks! You can AFFORD to pay your people the money that they want. What's the most important rule for any management? Keep your employes happy, cause good help is hard to fine.

It sounds like these artists may have a leg to stand on. Zach is right that the gaming business right now is crazy and badly in need of reform. Maybe this is a step in the right direction.

[FantasiaWHT]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but... these programmers etc. are salaried, right? Not paid an hourly wage?

There are tons of salaried jobs out there that I can think of that don't get paid overtime when they work more than 40 hours a week. As a teacher I worked at school between 55-60, plus between 15-20 more doing work at home. That's not including the frequent Saturdays and Sundays I needed to work. I don't make any overtime for that.

Retail managers are expected to put more than 40 hours/week in, and they don't make overttime for anything over 40 either. That's how my boss works- he's in the store as much as it takes to get the job done, which, when it gets to the holidays, can be 60-70 hours per week.

Maybe I'm wrong and they're hourly employees, but if they're not... how is this any different?

[tyranthraxus]

I have a buddy who worked for the company that eventually got bought
and made into EA Vancouver. He did Commodore 64 ports in the late 80s
and early 90s. I asked him once why he left and he said he simply burned
out, never going into the details. I can really understand why now. I think
really for any long hour job like that where you are not in a managment
position should be gettting hourly wages and overtime.

Unions are the only thing that keeps the insane hours of the film industry
in check where an 5 day 80 hour work week is not unusual. Of course the
difference is that the technicans get OT and turnaround time. So a rich
show can work the long hours but they gotta PAY.

The American film industry is still very strong despite the costs. Mega bucks
movies have been shooting in other countries for 50 years because they
have the money to shoot anywhere. And marginally budgeted shows and
movies have gone to Canada since the 1980s but LA still does over 30
billion a year in production because thats where the studios and stars live
its just too convienent not to shoot there. And I think thats also why
even with revised labour practices game companies won't abandoned the
U.S. completely. Those logs show just how much can go wrong and why
a game studio would want to keep a close eye on development. The
shovelware will go to India but most of the A-list franchises will stay here.

[Jorpho]

Y'know, for a minute there, it sounded like someone caught up in one of those insidious multi-level marketing scams.

I agree, unionization seems to be a probable outcome of all this.

[badinsults]

I don't see why they wouldn't just hire twice as many people and have them work normal hours. Problem solved.

[FantasiaWHT]

The productivity of a team twice as large isn't necessary twice as much. The more people you have working on a single project, the more prone to error it is, the more difficulty coming to agreement there is, etc.

If video game workers ever unionize, I will never buy another video game.

[devilman]

The more people you have working on a single project, the more prone to error it is, the more difficulty coming to agreement there is, etc.


It also follows that the more exhausted people you have on a project the more mistakes are going to slip through/be introduced so you'd think it'd be in the company's best interest to keep their workforce alert and happy.

[tyranthraxus]

If video game workers ever unionize, I will never buy another video game.

I suppose that you are aware that Sega and Sony have severa employee unions in their companies.

[Ed Oscuro]

Pretty much drove that into the ground.

Large teams introduce more errors than a small team, sure, but that's why you hire good people and don't hire second-best people. Second thing is you just need to make sure everybody's working off the same plan and not duplicating efforts. One of Heretic II's big problems was that people were doing tasks more than they needed to be done; weapon effects in particular had to be cut because various people had coded the exact same ones more than once.

[Iron Draggon]

I know I am going to get flamed for this but here it goes.

Do you personally know any VP,CEO or CFO's? Yeah they make a lot of money and get a lot of perks but they take all the risk. Don't believe me? I have worked for two companies that have went under, both times I was friends with one of the CEO's and kept in touch with the other. Now after both companies went under I found jobs with in a couple of months making the same or more as the previous job. Working for a company that went bankrupt on my resume does not hurt my chance of getting a new job. As for the former CEO's? it took them a few years each to get another job. With the first one our company had its funding pulled because of the shareholders decision, not his. But none the less no one wanted to touch him because he was a CEO's of a company that went under. The second, A bad product was pushed through testing, because the engineers could not meet the production date they promised. Bad product goes out company get a bad Rep, company goes under. Again did the CEO know the Engineers were covering up problems to make the ship date? No. Was he responsible? Yes and he still carries that weight around his neck when he applies for a job. Were they republicans ? I have no idea ( that was a joke). The day people stop lining up to work for EA they will have to change there policy, until then they are working the situation to there advantage.

Actually, yes I do, I've been partnered to two CEO's now. One was the owner of a very large and well known nut & bolt company, and the other was the owner of a very large and well known roofing company. Both pretty much did nothing but party all the time and spend money like it was going out of style. And I lived with these guys for several years each, so I know exactly what they did both inside and outside the office. Neither one ever worked more than just a few hours at a time, only 4-6 hours a day on the average, and yet they brought home 10 times more for those few hours than their lowest paid workers could make working 40-60 hours a week. Now that's just pathetic. Even they didn't take their jobs that seriously. Life was just one big joke to them, "HAHAHA, look at the obscene amounts of money that I make doing NOTHING!" Sure, they had their share of problems to deal with, but no more than the average Joe working the average job faces every day, and usually far less headaches than that. It was just sad. So I have good reason to hold those people in contempt, I've slept with them!

[Ed Oscuro]

Just because you've been around a couple nutters doesn't mean you've got some sort of insight into CEOs. You're talking about relatively sure-fire businesses, from the description you've given; Hep038 describes businesses which also sound like they were pretty much based off of research and development. There's no research or development there; it's all about inventory and personnel; management and more management...not about worrying your teams are going to miss a deadline, or just fake it. Sounds like you haven't been around the right sort of CEOs to be making that sort of comment.

[FantasiaWHT]

If video game workers ever unionize, I will never buy another video game.

I suppose that you are aware that Sega and Sony have severa employee unions in their companies.

Forgot the rolling eyes :P :roll:

Depends on what kind of CEO you're talking about. One that doesn't OWN (partially or wholly) a company has absolutely no real "stake" in a company. If the company folds he doesn't lose any personal assets other than his job. They make tons of money and have no invested interest in running the business well, unless there happens to be a particularly nosy Board of Directors. A LLC, or even a single-owner business (which technically doesn't have a CEO) the CEO/owner has personal investment in the business and a good reason not to screw up- they'll lose a ton of their own personal money.

Hell CEO's who get their companies FUBARed can even get away with enormous severance packages.

[Iron Draggon]

Just because you've been around a couple nutters doesn't mean you've got some sort of insight into CEOs. You're talking about relatively sure-fire businesses, from the description you've given; Hep038 describes businesses which also sound like they were pretty much based off of research and development. There's no research or development there; it's all about inventory and personnel; management and more management...not about worrying your teams are going to miss a deadline, or just fake it. Sounds like you haven't been around the right sort of CEOs to be making that sort of comment.

Actually, there was alot of that sort of thing with the nut & bolt guy, much more than you would think. It was basically a huge fabricating plant, so he got alot of special orders for custom parts too. Anything made out of metal, and lots of requests for stuff made out of rare and exotic metals, so the name of the company was a bit misleading. It was actually pretty cool, he had huge bins of scrap that were worth a fortune. You wouldn't think that all the scrap would be worth very much, but nothing was ever wasted there.

And there was alot more research and development than you would think too. They were always researching new ways of doing the entire process, as well as new materials that they could use in the process. So it was actually alot more high tech than you would think. In fact, the R&D zone was one of the coolest areas of the plant. So it was no small scale company. It's still one of the largest nut & bolt manufacturers in the world. Their bolts are in just about every major project ever built. The AstroDome here in Houston, and the Golden Gate Bridge in SF are just a couple of examples. So it's a very old company too. He inherited it from his father. So basically, he was born with a silver spoon in his mouth, and he lived his whole life expecting red carpets.

Anyhow, the roofing guy was totally small time by comparison. His yearly salary was only about a hundred grand, but the nut & bolt guy's yearly salary was over a quarter million. Both still very small scale compared to somebody like a software developer for sure, but the thing is, the more money those guys made, the more assinine they became, so I'm sure that the guys at EA are every bit as evil as their disgruntled employees made them sound. Greed is a very powerful emotion, and it does have a very nasty tendency to make those who suffer from it become inhuman and inhumane. All that matters is the bottom line. That's the way it was with the nut & bolt guy for sure, but I have to admit the roofing guy was a real sweetheart by comparison, and the only time you ever saw his evil side was if you pissed him off somehow.

But the nut & bolt guy, man, what a world class asshole he was! Of course he had a soft side, but it was very rarely seen, and I was probably one of very few people who ever saw it. The rest of the time, he was just insane. And I'm sure those guys at EA are the same way. Living with the nut & bolt guy was very much like what those programmers described working for EA was like. Nothing was ever good enough, and you were blamed for stuff that you couldn't possibly have known was your responsibility. The least little thing that wasn't right was blamed on you, no matter whose fault it really was. Living with that guy was pure hell in that respect. But at least I did enjoy fringe benefits, so it wasn't as bad as it would've been if I worked for him. I can only imagine how much his employees hated him. The roofing guy was self-made, so he had alot more heart, but the nut & bolt guy was the sort of person who really made you question his ethics. He was a scary man.

[Ed Oscuro]

The IGDA has gotten into the act with their Open Letter (http://www.igda.org/qol/open_letter.php) to game development firms.

Nothing amazing, so I'm not creating a new topic for it. Glad to see somebody's doing something about this, though.

[zmweasel]

A three-page article about the EA controversy was just posted on the liberal website Salon.com: http://www.salon.com/tech/feature/2004/12/02/no_fun_and_games/index.html

-- Z.

[SoulBlazer]

Bah, you gotta give them information to get that article -- stuff I don't want to give. :/

Can you kindly post the text of the article here? :D

[bargora]

Bah, you gotta give them information to get that article -- stuff I don't want to give. :/

Can you kindly post the text of the article here? :D
You're talking about the Salon.com article, right? You don't need to give any personal info to read articles there. You just have to let them show you an ad first to get a "daily pass" that lets you access the site for the day.

[zmweasel]

An email from EA's senior VP of human resources:

http://news.spong.com/x?art=8061

The most interesting graf:

"We are looking at reclassifying some jobs to overtime eligible in the new Fiscal Year. We have resisted this in the past, not because we don’t want to pay overtime, but because we believe that the wage and hour laws have not kept pace with the kind of work done at technology companies, the kind of employees those companies attract and the kind of compensation packages their employees prefer. We consider our artists to be 'creative' people and our engineers to be 'skilled' professionals who relish flexibility but others use the outdated wage and hour laws to argue in favor of a workforce that is paid hourly like more traditional industries and conforming to set schedules. But we can’t wait for the legislative process to catch up so we’re forced to look at making some changes to exempt and non-exempt classifications beginning in April."

-- Z.

[SoulBlazer]

That's weird.

The first time I went to that site, by clicking on Zach's link, it showed me the first page of the article and then the bottom had a link to sign up for the service. No mention of a ad anywhere.

Now, when I try again, it pops up with the ad right away with a button to click to start showing it. :hmm:

[lendelin]

"We are looking at reclassifying some jobs to overtime eligible in the new Fiscal Year. We have resisted this in the past, not because we don’t want to pay overtime, but because we believe that the wage and hour laws have not kept pace with the kind of work done at technology companies, the kind of employees those companies attract and the kind of compensation packages their employees prefer. We consider our artists to be 'creative' people and our engineers to be 'skilled' professionals who relish flexibility but others use the outdated wage and hour laws to argue in favor of a workforce that is paid hourly like more traditional industries and conforming to set schedules. But we can’t wait for the legislative process to catch up so we’re forced to look at making some changes to exempt and non-exempt classifications beginning in April."

Good news! Oh, how I love administrative euphemisms. :) Everyone "relishes flexibility," but 12hour workdays over 9 months isn't exactly flexibility, seems it was a pretty rigid policy. EA should pay overtime, they can afford it.

[DigitalSpace]

I just came across an article where the EA Spouse has revealed herself, as well as her husband:

Link (http://blogs.mercurynews.com/aei/2006/04/exclusive_nicol.html)

[Moo Cow]

Well I have to agree with EA Spouse, the gaming industry is DIRTY FILTHY STINKING ROTTEN RICH, especially EA, so JUST HIRE SOME MORE PEOPLE! They're gonna be constantly hiring people anyway, so why not have a large enough team to get the job done at the rate they want it done at, without having to work a small handful of underpaid people to death? And I have to agree with the other former EA guy too, make the damned CEO's turn loose of all the luxuries for doing NOTHING but working the workers to death, if they don't see how they can afford to hire more people! It's simple logic!

This is what's wrong with corporate America today. Almost ALL businesses operate like this. All the CEO's & VIP's do NOTHING but play golf and take their extended vacations for MONTHS at a time, and they make THE MOST money for it, while the workers who actually do all the WORK are SLAVES! They all want all their employees to be married to their jobs, like their jobs are the greatest thing that ever happened to them, when the truth is their jobs are THE WORST thing that ever happened to them! I've lived that awful farce myself, for far more years than I cared to, and if there's one thing that I don't miss about not working full time anymore, it's all the SLAVERY! Sure, I miss all the huge paychecks, but it's just not worth it!

But then that's what all the Republicans in this country are doing for you! THEY make all the unfair rules and all the real money, and YOU make all the sacrifices and the insulting wages that don't even really get you by, so they can stay RICH and you can stay POOR! It's the American way alright! Just EXPLOIT the poor and PAMPER the rich! I say it's time for a REVOLUTION!

Yes.

Also, I've read this article before, and I still hate EA video games. Ahem, I don't want to buy a football game once a year that is just like the last one. I don't want to play the sims, it seems boring as fuck.