NEW NES 72 pin manufacturer *input wanted*

[omnedon]

Ok. Yesterday, I received the second run of manufacturing for SJ's new 72 pin connectors. I've tested 10 of the batch of 40 so far.

These pins do not hold the cart in a death grip like the Ebay/MCM connectors do, but they are not ZIFfy either. A bit tighter than original NES, but a child can still easily remove Tengen carts and the like.

The connectors were tested with more than 15 carts each, including Tengen, Camerica, and Licensed Nintendo catridges, plus the NTF2 diagnostic cartridge. This includes less then perfectly clean carts, but nothing truly filthy or anything.

Of the 10:

6 worked flawlessly, first try, each cart.

3 more seemed DOA, with flashing screen, but repeated testing and insertions, they began to work. After a good 15-or 20 insertions, no more flashing. I went back and re-tried every cart again, TWICE, in random order. The 3 pins then worked, and continued to work flawlessly with every cart.

1 pin had vertical lines up and down the screen. Nothing seemed to alleviate this problem, all carts.

I've told this to SJ. They want me to test more (I will), but they are keen on sending this revision to manufacturing. Perhaps with a label on each stating that a break in period may occasionally be necessary.

Here is where I'm looking for input. personally, I'd prefer utter perfection, but after seeing some revisions here, I'm beginning to think that may not be possible. These pins are pretty good, and as an installer, I think I can work with them.

What do you guys/gals think? Pull no punches. I can refurb old pins, and may continue that to some degree, but these will be a big time saver. Some of you may want to be able to re-sell either as pins alone, or in NES's. Either way, you will be the kind of customers these pins will be going to.

Sound off! :)

[eightbitonline]

if you test more and see that a break-in period is truly a common occurance, i'm comfortable with a break-in period if it results in a "flawless" connection afterwards, and especially if that's noted on the connector somewhere. 9 out of 10 doesn't seem bad at all! that one with the lines seems like it has a bigger problem that likely isn't inherent in the design and will be corrected before manufacturing.

[FABombjoy]

I would be fine with a bit more insertion force if it was due to increased contact area. Is that the reason, or is it just an issue with tolerances?

1/10 seems like a pretty high failure rate. I'd like to see the results of all 40 test connectors.

What is the targeted MSRP for these new, improved pins?

[omnedon]

In large lots (1000+), I'm guessing around $4.50USD per. In more reasonable amounts (lots of 10 plus), I'm guessing $6.00USD.

Testing these is time consuming. :/

In regards to contact area, I *think* it's larger. A lot of these pins work with every cart, even when not snapped down. X_x

[long_shawn_silver]

As far as the time consuption goes, I hear ya, Referbing the old 72's that came with the NES in the first place I always find to be the best as time consuming as it is. I have tried out all or at least most of the "NEW and IMPROVED" 72's over the last couple of years and to be honest THEY ALL SUCK. I referb nintendo's almost everyday and I will continue to use the originals as I have only came arcoss 2 systems that coupld not have the original 72's life restored back to a 1985 like state. Thats not bad seeing as I have fixed at least 200 nintendo systems (seriously I have). And if I buy a brand new 72 that needs just as much work to get going as it would if you where fixing up a "used" one. Then I would rather keep the money that would be spent on the new 72 and just bite the bullet and do what I do, Just fix the old one up. Whats the point in buying 1000 of these things if only 8 or even 9 hundered of them are gonna work? I veiw that as being ripped off for a couple hundered 72's myself. If you have to put a few ours in to a machine at least with using the old adaptor you don't have to pay $4.50 to find out you have to screw around with the 72 for an hour. 4 or 5 out a hundred can be wrote off as defectives but 4 or 5 out of ten is just not feasable or for that matter worth the money.

[The Manimal]

Just noting that I read this, but not sure what to say. I cleaned a bunch of carts and tried them on my last working NES (since I broke the other's connector last week), and got about 30 out of 40 to work first try. This sucks. I want them all to work the first time, every time. Just like when I first got the system. :/ It's the original connector also..though the one I didn't sand and break.

Does anyone have a NEW Nintendo-made connector that someone could cough up as a test subject for making the new ones? Too bad someone couldn't get Nintendo to give schematics..given they probably don't manufacture the parts anymore, and even the official website says to buy parts used or at flea markets...

From what you have said, and the idea of pins loosening up... Would they then become TOO LOOSE, TOO QUICK?

[Mr-E_MaN]

I personally would not mind having a "break in period" for a pin connector. I test each of the connectors I referb with 15-30 games, so a break in period would not bother me one bit, since I am testing that much anyway.

I do not like the MCM electronics connectors that much because they hold the connectors too tight. If these are easy to pull in and out, I'll buy some. I have about NESes that have no connectors in them right now due to broken pins.

Are these the people that are located within Canada? I can see myself buying even more pins from them since I wouldn't have to deal with cross boarder shipping, and customs. And if they were to produce the security bits also, I would be extremly happy. :D

[omnedon]

LSS:

And if I buy a brand new 72 that needs just as much work to get going as it would if you where fixing up a "used" one. Then I would rather keep the money that would be spent on the new 72 and just bite the bullet and do what I do, Just fix the old one up.

I disagree that 15 or so insertions is the same as the old pin refurb in labour, but i will agree that even 1 in 10 fail rate is a bit high for me.

I have installers calling me to sell them pins on a regular basis. I *can't* sell refurbed old pins that way. Installers want cheap per unit, and refurbed pins take too long to do all the work and then testing them, to sell them for a few buck a piece, and If I did, I'd end up with a big pile of pinless donor NES's.

There is a need for working new connectors, but who needs them, and why, for how much, are all open. Which is why I'm after input like the above. 8-)

Thanks! Keep it coming!

Simple Jet is a Canadian based wholesaler of third party cables, controllers and accessories. They have no stores, but sell to Microplay, Blockbuster, Rogers, and independent game and video stores. AFAIK, their main North American wholesale ship point is here in Edmonton. I buy from them wholesale, like other businesses do.

[omnedon]

More testing!

I tested another 10 pins. here are the total results from the 20:

13 worked 100%, right out of the bag, first try, every cart.

6 required 'breaking in'. breaking in for some meant 20 insertions (with lock down). For others, it meant 3 or 4 insertions (didn't work very first or second try).

1 dud, with vertical lines across the screen, garbled graphics.

Better than my results with the MCM connectors. I think I can work with these, as sellable pins. they may not replace refurbing pins altigether, but seem a good alternative.

Interesting detial. Almost all of them work not locked down, just as well as they did locked down.

[Dr. Morbis]

Once the ones that need it are "broken in" do they work perfectly after that? If you come back to it 48 hours later will it work first try? I currently have 9 toaster NES's, and they all work perfectly on every single insertion. However, most of them came from places like VV and needed extensive cleaning to rescusitate them. I'd say about half of them had to be "broken in", as they wouldn't work on the first 5 or so tries even after a good cleaning.

I personally like a 100% ZIF connection, and I think there is no perfect substitute for an original refurbed connector. However this seems like a question of best quality vs time/convenience. Also, a prospective customer needs to know that toaster NES's need to be cleaned regularly even after you sell them a refurbed/new pin system. Of all the consoles in the history of video games, nowhere is this more important than the NES.

[omnedon]

before I started testing the second trial of 10 today, I went back to the first ten. I'd kept notes, and numbered each pin. I re-tested two of the pins that required breaking in prior to working.

They both worked flawlessly, from first to last try, with all of the 15 carts. Perfect, after sitting for 24 hours.

I just hope they hold up for long term use. No quick test for that.

[eightbitonline]

yeah, these things are sounding pretty good. i'm excited because i wouldn't have to import them (go canada!). that one in the first batch of ten that had all the lines on the screen is starting to seem like more of a fluke the more omnedon tests. i'd definitley be willing to go with these if the shipped price stayed under $10. i've been wanting to start moving some of my stack of NES's, but with a 2-year old daughter i'd rarely be able to sell an NES because of the time involved in refurbing the pin. a switch-out for a connector i could trust would be an ideal situation. the price point however, is very important!

[omnedon]

Shipping in Canada is the problem. I can ship one connector to an American for a few bucks. One pin to you eightbit costs about $7.25. They are of course too thick for the 20mm slot CP uses. :angry:

But purchased in lots, of say, 10, the ship is pretty much the same, and that $7 in ship can be spread amongst the pins.

When I'm done my reg repairs today, I'll spend another 90 minutes testing another 10... *sigh*

[eightbitonline]

yeah, i'd definitley order 10 or more at a time.

[Bratwurst]

Would these new pin connectors have a plastic backing behind the upper set of pins by chance? That sort of support would ensure the pins never bend out of shape and if that was the case I'd buy one for sure.

I suppose I have to ask more directly, also, what is it about these newly manufactured pins that make them different from what's currently out there?

[omnedon]

The MCM/Ebay ones hold carts in a DEATH GRIP, and have a 1 in 4 fail rate with the NTF2 diagnostic cartridge, in my tests.

I'm not sure I understand what you mean by 'plastic backing'.

These pins look identical to MCM/Ebay and Nintendo connectors. No Death Grip though. LOL

[The Manimal]

You said that these new connectors fail, but have a break in period.



Do the MCM made ones have the same problem...would they break in also, and later work?

[omnedon]

Nope. When they would not work with the NTF2, they stay not working. I still have at least 1.

[The Manimal]

okay. thanks :)


i am interested in these either way...given two are on the brink of death and one is utterly gutted due to my own fault...and obviously, anything is better than that one. :)


if you end up selling these, are you going to test them beforehand or ...?

i'd probably want 6 of them (since i have 3 toaster NESs...2 for each).

[leonk]

The MCM/Ebay ones hold carts in a DEATH GRIP, and have a 1 in 4 fail rate with the NTF2 diagnostic cartridge, in my tests.


I'm not sure why the NTF2 cart will show a problem while others will not.

From a technical stand point (after experimenting with mine and reproducing many other carts) the NTF2 is nothing but a standard cart. In fact, there should be many carts on the market that will fail while the NTF2 passes (because there are pins that are not connected on the NTF2 but are on other carts).

A good example of a cart that's loaded to the max is SMB3. It uses a lot more pins than the NTF2 (because it uses more output address lines 256k NTFS vs 2048k SMB3!).

It could be that you just have an NTF2 cart with very sensitive (i.e. thin) PCB.

Apart from that, it doesn't do anything above and beyond a standard cart (i.e. no special added hardware or traces).

[eightbitonline]

The MCM/Ebay ones hold carts in a DEATH GRIP, and have a 1 in 4 fail rate with the NTF2 diagnostic cartridge, in my tests.


I'm not sure why the NTF2 cart will show a problem while others will not.

From a technical stand point (after experimenting with mine and reproducing many other carts) the NTF2 is nothing but a standard cart. In fact, there should be many carts on the market that will fail while the NTF2 passes (because there are pins that are not connected on the NTF2 but are on other carts).

A good example of a cart that's loaded to the max is SMB3. It uses a lot more pins than the NTF2 (because it uses more output address lines 256k NTFS vs 2048k SMB3!).

It could be that you just have an NTF2 cart with very sensitive (i.e. thin) PCB.

Apart from that, it doesn't do anything above and beyond a standard cart (i.e. no special added hardware or traces).

i've brought this up to omnedon myself through PM. my NTF2 works extremely well on a number of systems, where other carts will not. of course, mine's not a standard one (as omnedon and leonk know).

leonk: since mine is based off an SMB3 board is it slightly different from omnedon's, based on what you've mentioned above about SMB3 boards?

[leonk]

Yours is not based on an SMB3 bord.. it's based on what an NTF2 should be based on.

as far as pin differences.. scratch that. Any cart (be it SMB3 or NTF2) should use the same pins. There is no way that 1 cart doesn't use some pins while others do.

Here's why:

The NTF2 and a typical SMB3, Contra, etc. have both a PRG and a CHR ROM chip (or an SRAM chip but the NES sees it as a CHR ROM chip) Each cart has:

- 8 pins to select memory address (D0->D7) (times 2 - 1 for CHR chip, 1 for PRG chip)
- 15 pins for data return on PRG
- 14 pins for data return on CHR (this is why the PRG chip is always same size as CHR or bigger)
- power, ground, chip enablement, etc.

When the NES tells the cart it wants a certain address, it puts the address on the bus (D0->D7) and then it waits for the reply (on the other pins). It is *IMPOSSIBLE* to listen to some pins or not another. The NES is 8 bits, so all 8 bits must also be used. The CPU is also hard coded to listen to all the return lines (even if not connected, it registeres as a 0).

The point to all this? Unless you have a funky cart with extra hardware/pins, all carts work the same. The difference is how the cart overcomes the limitation of the addressable memory via the mapper chip and the usage of cache SRAM. (also know as VRAM/WRAM).

wow. that was long. :D

[eightbitonline]

.... i knew that. x_x

[omnedon]

I didn't. :D

That's odd. The pins that failed with the NTF2 cart, worked with some games, but not others.

It could be as simple as a thinner PCB.

So, leonk, a SMB3 cart (assuming the NES does not have it's lockout disabled) will utilize all 72 connections simulatneously, or do 'no' carts use them all?


This is good discourse. Good info for NES users everywhere. :)

[Dr. Morbis]

So, leonk, a SMB3 cart (assuming the NES does not have it's lockout disabled) will utilize all 72 connections simulatneously, or do 'no' carts use them all?

All my SMB3 carts only have 60 pins. Isn't the NES a 60 pin system? Sure, all the games are on 72 pin boards, but does any cart actually have middle pins (that are used)? I know the earliest games have 72 pins, but the middle pins are never attached to anything. Castlevania 3 and Kirby have two of the most complex boards, and even they don't have a full set of 72 pins.

[leonk]

The pins in the middle (that are missing on most new PCB's) are actually for the connector on the bottom of the NES. So they never get used.

As far as the other pins. yes, they get used all the time.

As far as the order goes.. oops. made a mistake. The D0-D8 data pins are the data return pins. The other pins are the ones that tell the cart/mapper what data is needed and control other stuff (like enable the chip to read, etc.)

[omnedon]

So, a new connector could be manufactured, minus specific middle pins, and all carts would still work?

[long_shawn_silver]

So, a new connector could be manufactured, minus specific middle pins, and all carts would still work?

Yep,

Most of the middle pins on the 72's where dedicated for sole use with the expansion port (8 track drive) that was never utilized. IIRC it's 10 pins (might be 14) that are totally unused.

And I wanted that damn Nintendo 8 track player too!! LOL

[omnedon]

Fun-ky!
LOL

[whoisKeel]

I'm not exactly sure I can input much to this thread..but what the hell :)

First off, I don't understand the break-in period...I mean, they're pins that gradually bend in the direction you don't want them to...doesn't make sense to me.

I installed a MCM pin in my NES, which worked great for a few months, then started to crap out. I'd say overall i got 80% first trys off of the new connector.

Then I 'refurbished' my old pin and slapped it back in and I get a good 99% first try runs. I say 99% because I only have one cart out of 96 that gives me trouble from time to time (afterburner, a tengen cart, well used). I can't think of another cart that has given me ANY trouble since I refurbed my connector. My carts are well cleaned.

But my opinion on whether you should use the SJ's or not? If they seem to work better than the MCM's...go for it, at least you're in a better standing position till something better comes out.

[FABombjoy]

First off, I don't understand the break-in period...I mean, they're pins that gradually bend in the direction you don't want them to...doesn't make sense to me.

Perhaps there is a light film on the parts left behind as a result of the manufacturing process.

[DogP]

Hey,

I just got a weekly email from MCM and they're advertising the NES edge connectors... it says "Our new version of this connector is redesigned to ensure a quality replacement connector." Does anyone know if this is the same connector that they've been selling, have they redesigned THEIR connector, or are these the new ones that Omnedon is selling? You can see the ad here: http://mail.mcminone.com/email/weekly.html .

DogP

[omnedon]

I have no idea, but I'd be willing to bet they may very well be the same ones.

The plant manufacturing them would want to make as many as possible.

This is good news for everyone IMO. :)

[chadtower]

I seem to have horrific luck with these. No matter what connectors I try, on how many motherboards I try it and with how many carts, I always get flaky results. I'd say the BEST results I've gotten is about 80% reliability. Is 100% even possible?

[The Manimal]

how are these 'new' pins holding up so far?

[chadtower]

If you mean the ones I bought, I haven't had the chance to investigate further. It may well be my set of test carts has a flaky cart or two, so take my experience thus far as only one datapoint.

[The Manimal]

Ah, I should have been more specific. I meant omnedom and this distributor/manufacturer from Canada and the pins that sometimes require "break in". :)

[omnedon]

I've installed more than 80 now, problem free.

I've sold more than 100 here and there. I'm aware of some issues chadtower is having, and eightbitonline had issues with his once he tried one with a Geme genie.

I've been unable to reproduce any of these problems. The only Game genie problem I could find in my testing, was that GG will NOT work with no cover on the NES. The strap on the GG uses the top of the NES to push it down a bit. No lid, no push down, no worky.

I dunno what to say, other than I totally believe what chadtower says.

[chadtower]

Okay, I just took three of them and put them in new consoles. I took my set of test carts and test each of them 5 times. This is right out of the bag.

On NES 1:

SMB: 5 of 5
SMB2: 4 of 5
Ice Hockey: 1 of 5
SMB/DH/WCTM: 5 of 5
Double Dribble: 4 of 5
SMB/DH: 0 of 5
SMB3: 5 of 5


On NES 2:

SMB: 2 of 5
SMB2: 4 of 5
Ice Hockey: 1 of 5
SMB/DH/WCTM: 4 of 5
Double Dribble: 2 of 5
SMB/DH: 0 of 5
SMB3: 1 of 5


On NES 3:

SMB: 5 of 5
SMB2: 5 of 5
Ice Hockey: 4 of 5
SMB/DH/WCTM: 5 of 5
Double Dribble: 5 of 5
SMB/DH: 0 of 5
SMB3: 0 of 5


So, at this point, pretty inconsistent. I took all of the carts open and thoroughly cleaned them, even though they had already been cleaned. I even lightly wet sanded them. I started to run a second set of tests on NES 3 and NONE of them were working. That's when I accidentally did it:

I forgot to press the cart down.

That 0 for 15 SMB/DH booted perfectly with the cart in the up position. In fact, it booted 10 times in a row that way. The other carts that were inconsistent all worked better up than down. Some worked best halfway down. There seemed to be no difference between after 0 insertions, 10 insertions, or 50 insertions. The variable is the cart angle.

That makes this a really odd one to figure out where to go from here. My first guess is that the breakin period is not on the surface of the pins, it's on the tensile strength of the external part of the pins. It's the part on the back of the connector.

[chadtower]

so, the question for me basically is:

What do I do with these? The breakin period seems to be moot, doesn't change anything. They're not working well with the carts down. I had bought them with the intention of swapping the pins and selling the units off. I can't sell them half functional... so now I'm still stuck with a stack of consoles and now with $75 in connectors that don't work OEM or close to it. How could I sell an NES and say "well, some games work in the up position, some halfway down if you want to wedge something in there, but most not while down".


I said stuck with a stack. LOL

[omnedon]

I offered before, and I'll offer again. :) Ship them back to me. I'll refund your money.

[chadtower]

I may take you up on that... kind of sucks for you, though, as you are having great success with them. Plus I did know going in that it was a new product, so it's not like I'm uber pissed about it or anything.

What do you think are the odds that these could be sellable as they are, with a breakin period warning? Or maybe I should just ebay the things for $40 a pop and say hey you get a new pin good luck with it.

[omnedon]

Not so bad for me really. If they do have problems, I'm taking them to the manufacturer. If not, I'll sell them installed into systems for far more than the pennies per pin I make selling them in bulk.

It's cool either way.

[eightbitonline]

i had problems with the first two i installed. after using a game genie with them they flaked out. cleaning them and doing an extremely slight pin bend-back got them back to 100% reliability. i've gone through all my original order with no more complaints.

[kainemaxwell]

Have you started selling them again or you still dealing with the mystery issues?

If so, good luck figuring it out. If your pin connectors do turn out to be more realiable then MCM I'll definitly invest! 8-)

[chadtower]

I've been using the three I installed... they work, but still after many insertions, they work better with the carts up than down.

[omnedon]

I've pulled them off my site, and just use them myself now.

Selling parts is not a good fit for OSG. The low margin single connectors seem to require more followup service than *any* of the NES's I do installs for.

So it's a no brainer. Focus on extremely low margin parts, and answer install e-mails (plus feel bad when good people like eightbit and chadtower have problems :/ ), or install them myself and leave satisfied customers in my wake.

It's too bad, but the pins are obviously too fussy for DIY'ers. I have no idea why I have consistent good luck, as I test VERY thoroughly (ten random carts (clean) plus the NTF2 cartridge).

Of the volume systems I've done for store contracts, I've had maybe 5 of the last 80 come back. Of those 5, 4 just didn't like filthy cartridges :roll: , and one had a weird PCB problem.

I guess toploaders aren't that overrated for some. Otherwise, get an NES from me, or pinned by me. Both my local and mail order customers have been very pleased.

This saddens me, but I'm not going to sully my rep with pins that give inconsistent results out in the field.

[The Manimal]

I guess I waited too long. Anywhere else I can get a good connector, given I 'gutted' my OEM one with the wrong grit sandpaper due to someone listing the wrong number online..

[omnedon]

I am still fixing NES's. Just got word back from a US customer. He's happy as heck with his perfectly working NES. Only $25USD warranteed. Ship extra.

[The Manimal]

I'll try the eBay route. Not really willing to pay too much, given I paid $40 average for both of my toaster NES backups, both used and in fantastic condition other than the connectors of course. Most NESs I run across are beat up, have rust, or other crap like that. These looked nice, but when adding too much to the $40, it's too steep.

[omnedon]

I just wanted to make it clear that it's not like they can't be fixed reliably. 8-)

No worries, and I agree.