eBay seller argues over insurance

[Perkar]

so i won this auction here:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=8146918684&ssPageName=STRK:MEWA:IT

notice at the bottom where it says "insurance optional"

i go through his checkout, and it's already added the insurance in and says it's required. confused i was. i notice back in the listing that he states "If you do not wish to have insurance please add a discount for $1.50." but i basically say F it, if it says required insurance here, i'll keep in on there, don't want any trouble....

i receive my package a few days ago, and lo and behold.... no insurance was purchased for my item. i was dumbfounded, so i wrote the guy a few emails:

>> On Fri, 26 Nov 2004 22:52:02 -0800 (PST)
>> Mike Otto <perkar11@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> >hello,
>> >
>> >i received the auction i won from you today; tnn
>> >hardcore heat for dreamcast. i am very happy with
>> the
>> >product, however.... i purchased shipping insurance
>> on
>> >this item, and the package i received was not
>> insured.
>> >i would like to receive a refund on the $1.50 i
>> paid
>> >for shipping insurance that was not purchased. my
>> >paypal address is perkar11@yahoo.com. thank you
>> >
>> >mike


his response:

>--- Mike Morio <supermario@netins.net> wrote:
>
>> Hi, I am sorry. But if the item was damaged during
>> shipment it would obvisouly been my responisbliet to
>>
>> replace it.
>>
>> Mike


it's my understanding that insurance is puchased at the post office so if there is loss or damage to the item, it's the POST OFFICE'S RESPONSIBILITY. Am i wrong? so i send him another email, obviously getting a little angrier...


On Sat, 27 Nov 2004 22:02:57 -0800 (PST)
Mike Otto <perkar11@yahoo.com> wrote:

>so you will be refunding the $1.50 you've more or less
>stolen from me? i know $1.50 might be something small
>to bicker about, but i paid for shipping insurance and
>i expected shipping insurance to be purchased. there
>was no insurance purchased.

i come home today and have my $1.50 refunded and have a new email....

Hi, I sent you $1.50 but I don't think I had stolen that
from you. You still recived the same product and I would
have refunded you had anything happened to the cd.

Mike




i'm glad he gave me a refund on the $1.50, but a situation like this simply shouldn't happen. why oh why are 99% of all sellers on ebay extremely stupid? ARGH

[Lost Monkey]

>--- Mike Morio <supermario@netins.net> wrote:
>
>> Hi, I am sorry. But if the item was damaged during
>> shipment it would obvisouly been my responisbliet to
>>
>> replace it.
>>
>> Mike


The seller was correct...

You purchased the insurance from him.. that is how I HAVE to do things because (A) I cannot purchase the insurance from the post office for the type of international packages I ship and (B) as a seller, I have been replacing lost or damaged items out of my own pocket for years anyway... it just has gotten to the point where I don't feel like taking the responsibility or expense any more.

Go to your car or home insurance company and demand back the money they have stolen from you over the last years and see if they give it back...

[SoulBlazer]

Wait a second, you buy insurance from the SELLER instead of the Post Office? WHY? :hmm:

Any good seller should have a promise on their stuff anyway and offer to replace it or refund your money if something happens during transit....WITHOUT charging the insurance fee! :/

Anything I sell I always say insurance optional and list it as such. If the buyer pays for it, I'll get it at the PO. (Always get tracking anyway for myself) If they don't, then I won't.

[Lost Monkey]

Wait a second, you buy insurance from the SELLER instead of the Post Office? WHY? :hmm:

I am not saying that in all cases a seller isn't or shouldn't purchase insurance from the post office, but there are benefits to both the buyer and the seller if the seller "pools" the funds paid for insurance and replaces the item immediately rather than making the bidder go through the torture of a postal claim...



[/i]

[Perkar]

>--- Mike Morio <supermario@netins.net> wrote:
>
>> Hi, I am sorry. But if the item was damaged during
>> shipment it would obvisouly been my responisbliet to
>>
>> replace it.
>>
>> Mike


The seller was correct...

You purchased the insurance from him.. that is how I HAVE to do things because (A) I cannot purchase the insurance from the post office for the type of international packages I ship and (B) as a seller, I have been replacing lost or damaged items out of my own pocket for years anyway... it just has gotten to the point where I don't feel like taking the responsibility or expense any more.

Go to your car or home insurance company and demand back the money they have stolen from you over the last years and see if they give it back...


umm, you purchase an insurance plan for car/home insurance from an insurance company.

this seller apparently believes in "good faith insurance" and frankly, i don't trust a single person i buy anything from on ebay. he is NOT an insurance company.

you post "insurance" in an auction and it automatically implies POST OFFICE SHIPPING INSURANCE.

[Chunky]

this is beyond the most stupidest thing i have seen on ebay.


Lost monkey you and this guy are only stealing or at leat put into the auction that the insurance is from myself and not the post office.

cuz 100% of all bidders would think that it's from the shipping company. end of story

[Perkar]

this is beyond the most stupidest thing i have seen on ebay.


Lost monkey you and this guy are only stealing or at leat put into the auction that the insurance is from myself and not the post office.

cuz 100% of all bidders would think that it's from the shipping company. end of story

exactly.

at minimum, the auction should at least state that the seller will personally replace if damaged/lost, being "good faith insurance" and not shipping insurance...

[Balloon Fight]

this is beyond the most stupidest thing i have seen on ebay.


Lost monkey you and this guy are only stealing or at leat put into the auction that the insurance is from myself and not the post office.

cuz 100% of all bidders would think that it's from the shipping company. end of story

Exactly what perkar and chunky said. Insurance isn't a way for the seller to make an extra couple of dollars, its for the sellers to buy insurance from the post office to replace your money if its lost or whatever.

"Good faith insurance" basically means nothing. Post office insurance means something.

[xaer0knight]

>--- Mike Morio <supermario@netins.net> wrote:
>
>> Hi, I am sorry. But if the item was damaged during
>> shipment it would obvisouly been my responisbliet to
>>
>> replace it.
>>
>> Mike


The seller was correct...

You purchased the insurance from him.. that is how I HAVE to do things because (A) I cannot purchase the insurance from the post office for the type of international packages I ship and (B) as a seller, I have been replacing lost or damaged items out of my own pocket for years anyway... it just has gotten to the point where I don't feel like taking the responsibility or expense any more.

Go to your car or home insurance company and demand back the money they have stolen from you over the last years and see if they give it back...

Note to self: no buying things from you on EBay... "this seller apparently believes in "good faith insurance" and frankly, i don't trust a single person i buy anything from on ebay. he is NOT an insurance company." WHAT Perkar said. Thats right!

[Lost Monkey]

this is beyond the most stupidest thing i have seen on ebay.


Lost monkey you and this guy are only stealing or at leat put into the auction that the insurance is from myself and not the post office.

cuz 100% of all bidders would think that it's from the shipping company. end of story

Why does it make a difference WHO is holding the insurance?

When you rent a film from Blockbuster do they not offer insurance against your having to replace the tape/DVD if you damage it? CALL THE POLICE, THEY"RE NOT AN INSURANCE COMPANY!!

You are going to have to explain to me how my replacing items that are lost or stolen or damaged by the post office, out of an insurance pool is stealing. Unless, you are going to argue that the entire CONCEPT of insurance is tantamount to stealing, then I am afraid you are not going to convince me.

[Perkar]

Why does it make a difference WHO is holding the insurance?

When you rent a film from Blockbuster do they not offer insurance against your having to replace the tape/DVD if you damage it? CALL THE POLICE, THEY"RE NOT AN INSURANCE COMPANY!!

You are going to have to explain to me how my replacing items that are lost or stolen or damaged by the post office, out of an insurance pool is stealing. Unless, you are going to argue that the entire CONCEPT of insurance is tantamount to stealing, then I am afraid you are not going to convince me.

i'm not arguing the fact that insurance is 99% of the time pure theft, regardless of who the insurance is purchased from.

and it's great that you are able to keep your word with your "self-insurance." however, having something "self-insured" gives me absolutely no guarantee that if my item IS in fact damaged or lost, i will get anything back.

shit, if i bought something from you and new you were "self-insuring" i would tell you the item was damaged beyond recognition, or lost, or something, just to be a total bastard.

[Ed Oscuro]

Why does it make a difference WHO is holding the insurance?
Supposing I buy something for $2000, it makes a hell of a lot of difference!

I'd expect the seller to treat that as free money (obviously this one did).

Strange stuff indeed.

[esquire]

You buy insurance from the post office because you have a mode of recourse should they deny coverage for a lost or damaged item. You obviously don't have that if you purchase so-called "insurance" from an ebay seller. The post office is a third party, while the seller has a vested interest in the sale. I don't think it is kosher for the seller to be providing insurance themselves, especially if they don't disclose that in his auction terms. Besides, I am sure it is illegal to provide a service without a license that is both state and federally regulated. Not that the local state insurance commissioner doesn't have better things to do than to track down people providing unlicensed insurance on ebay.

[Perkar]

now i'm starting to wonder.

is it even legal to personally insure something? do you need some sort of certification or be registered as a licensed insurer to do something like that?

any lawyers on the board up on the legal aspects of this topic?

[Lost Monkey]

shit, if i bought something from you and new you were "self-insuring" i would tell you the item was damaged beyond recognition, or lost, or something, just to be a total bastard.

And I would send a replacement or a refund... because that is what the insurance pool is for... get it? ...except... I've already blocked you though.. LOL

[Ed Oscuro]

me 2 pls

[chocoboracerx]

It would appear to me that lost monkey has lost his mind and is now a complete and total lackwit.

[Lost Monkey]

Okay, I've seen the light.. I will drain the insurance pool and send the funds to the USPS in zip-lock bags.

Since I cannot offer postal insurance, I will just have to tell my customers to "fuck off" if they state that they don't receive anything from me or that they receive damaged goods.

I can't compete with you savvy business folk.

I am sorry...

[Ed Oscuro]

OMG a tragedy.

Seriously, why not go with the USPS? If a buyer wants insurance, they'll get it, and YOU won't be doing anything that looks shifty. I'd say it'll save you a lot of headache.

[punkoffgirl]

Why does it make a difference WHO is holding the insurance?

When you rent a film from Blockbuster do they not offer insurance against your having to replace the tape/DVD if you damage it? CALL THE POLICE, THEY"RE NOT AN INSURANCE COMPANY!!

You are going to have to explain to me how my replacing items that are lost or stolen or damaged by the post office, out of an insurance pool is stealing. Unless, you are going to argue that the entire CONCEPT of insurance is tantamount to stealing, then I am afraid you are not going to convince me.

As a SELLER, you should be doing those things ANYWAY, such as replacing items, in good faith, because you stand behind your items. Why does someone have to pay YOU to make sure you'd do those things?

[esquire]

now i'm starting to wonder.

is it even legal to personally insure something? do you need some sort of certification or be registered as a licensed insurer to do something like that?

any lawyers on the board up on the legal aspects of this topic?

Every ebay search on this topic refers to the "carriers" as providing the insurance, not the seller:

http://pages.ebay.com/help/sell/ship-insurance-rates.html

http://pages.ebay.com/help/confidence/isgw-fraud-shipping-concerns.html

Here in Michigan, and I assume in all other states, companies must be licensed to sell and provide insurance, from the broker to the actual provider. The reasoning is simple, if an insurance agent/broker/company does not comply with state guidelines or receives too many complaints the state agency can investigate the matter and shut the company down, and through the state attorney general even bring criminal charges against the business under their police powers.

So yes it is illegal. The real question is whether the state would do anything about a $1.50 transaction.

[Lost Monkey]

OMG a tragedy.

Seriously, why not go with the USPS? If a buyer wants insurance, they'll get it, and YOU won't be doing anything that looks shifty. I'd say it'll save you a lot of headache.

My first post stated that I CANNOT offer insurance..

I am in Canada, shipping more than 70% of my packages to the US.

Second, I ship out about 50 packages per day, ~95% of which are shipped as air mail/lettermail. I cannot offer insurance on lettermail. The best alternative I can offer is to send it registered, but it is cost prohibitive at ~$8.00, since the contents of the envelopes are generally valued at <$10....

Third, I have spent the last couple of years REPLACING things for the post office, out of pocket. Add to that the incidents of fraudulent Paypal payments etc, and it gets EXPENSIVE... It got to a point where I was going to have to tell people to take a hike rather than be able to continue to provide the service I wanted too...

Any package which I ship that does qualifies for insurance via the post office, GETS insured by the post office, either to protect myself or the buyer.

[Lost Monkey]

As a SELLER, you should be doing those things ANYWAY, such as replacing items, in good faith, because you stand behind your items. Why does someone have to pay YOU to make sure you'd do those things?

I will replace defective items at no charge regardless of insurance being purchased or not...

(Suddenly I'm "THE MAN")?!?

[Perkar]

As a SELLER, you should be doing those things ANYWAY, such as replacing items, in good faith, because you stand behind your items. Why does someone have to pay YOU to make sure you'd do those things?

I will replace defective items at no charge regardless of insurance being purchased or not...

(Suddenly I'm "THE MAN")?!?

then why is insurance necessary at all?

[Lost Monkey]

As a SELLER, you should be doing those things ANYWAY, such as replacing items, in good faith, because you stand behind your items. Why does someone have to pay YOU to make sure you'd do those things?

I will replace defective items at no charge regardless of insurance being purchased or not...

(Suddenly I'm "THE MAN")?!?

then why is insurance necessary at all?

I sell factory sealed DVDs. If the customer receives a DVD, opens the shrink and finds the DVD won't play, I replace it.

IF the post office loses it, or it arrives with the packaging smashed etc, that is what insurance is for...

Did I really need to explain that?

[Perkar]

well if the packaging is smashed up, how do i know for sure it wasn't shipped in that state? maybe you were using generic pictures.... hmm

[Lost Monkey]

Every ebay search on this topic refers to the "carriers" as providing the insurance, not the seller:

http://pages.ebay.com/help/sell/ship-insurance-rates.html

http://pages.ebay.com/help/confidence/isgw-fraud-shipping-concerns.html


I am sorry, but I wish there was something relevant in those links, but there isn't...

Honestly, if I felt I was doing something wrong, I wouldn't have come in here and defended an (obviously) unpopular position. :(

[Lost Monkey]

well if the packaging is smashed up, how do i know for sure it wasn't shipped in that state? maybe you were using generic pictures.... hmm

Yes, I know, you don't trust anyone, we get it.

[video_game_addict]

This thread is too funny!

I don't think it's as big of a deal as you all are making it out to be.



I also dissagree with punkoffgirl above, if you sell something once it's in the post office's hands, it's really not much you can do to insure it will arrive safely or even arrive for that matter. If the buyer complains that something went wrong, it doesn't neccessarily make it your fault. Not when the post office screws up. I don't think you should have to pay out of pocket just to make them happy. Sellers like Lost Monkey already do this though to avoid any neutral/negative feedback, but honestly that's going over & beyond call of duty to appease the buyers. So maybe you are the same way, maybe others are not, but IMHO, I don't feel I should have to lose out anytime the post office screws up and breaks or looses a parcel. And that is what the insurance is for, but for the times insurance is not available, like in lost monkey's case, or when the buyer simply doesn't purchase, I don't think it's the seller's responsibility.

[chocoboracerx]

I dunno. just sounds like another reason to hate canada to me.

[Griking]

I think that this arguement is extreme nitpicking. I happen to agree with the original seller and Lost Monkey. I gererally do the same thing myself but usually only for items which are under $30.00 or so. If the seller purchases insurance and if the item is lost or damaged then I refund the customer's money myself. And yeah, if all goes well I make an extra buck. In the long run the buyer gets the exact same service that they would have gotten had the post office been the one insuring the product except by doing it my way the customer gets his money back a lot sooner. I really don't understand why anyone would care about people doing this. As long as their product arrives safely its a non issue. If it's lost in transit or damaged and the buyer's payment is refunded it still should be a non issue.


and it's great that you are able to keep your word with your "self-insurance." however, having something "self-insured" gives me absolutely no guarantee that if my item IS in fact damaged or lost, i will get anything back.

Even if the post office covers the insurance there's no guarantee that you'll get your money back. First of all the post office is going to investigate the incident. Add a few weeks of inconvience there. Second of all IF they pay on the insurance claim they are going to pay the person who purchased the insurance from them who happens to be the seller, not you. So one way or another you're going to have to trust the seller to pay you for a lost or damaged item no matter who the insurance is purchased from.

[Griking]

well if the packaging is smashed up, how do i know for sure it wasn't shipped in that state? maybe you were using generic pictures.... hmm

OMFG x_x

Dude, if you're that paranoid about these kinds of things then you'd probably be much better off just not dealing on ebay at all.

[Zing]

Second, I ship out about 50 packages per day, ~95% of which are shipped as air mail/lettermail. I cannot offer insurance on lettermail. The best alternative I can offer is to send it registered, but it is cost prohibitive at ~$8.00, since the contents of the envelopes are generally valued at <$10....

How/why are you sending DVDs as lettermail? I send out my CDs and DVDs in the smallest possible padded envelope and they are too thick to count as lettermail. They instead get shipped as a "small packet" which is $3.35 CDN and includes insurance for up to $100. Even if a DVD went as lettermail, it should cost at least $2.80 (according to the Canada Post website for "letters" weighing 100-200 grams). For $.50 more you get insurance.

[Lost Monkey]

How/why are you sending DVDs as lettermail? I send out my CDs and DVDs in the smallest possible padded envelope and they are too thick to count as lettermail. They instead get shipped as a "small packet" which is $3.35 CDN and includes insurance for up to $100. Even if a DVD went as lettermail, it should cost at least $2.80 (according to the Canada Post website for "letters" weighing 100-200 grams). For $.50 more you get insurance.


You can see what Canada Post will insure right here:

http://www.canadapost.ca/personal/tools/pg/manual/d01-e.asp

Letter rate is not insurable.

The small packet rate you quoted is for surface mail, which will get there "when it gets there", letter mail usually arrives within a week. The $100 small packet "coverage" is a complete and utter joke. You cannot make a successful claim because there is no way to prove either way whether the package was received because the item it not tracked or even marked in any way at all. The packages do not get entered into CP's database or anywhere else. As far as damage goes, CP (and USPS) will invariably determine that the package was not properly protected and determine that no claim will be paid.

The only way to really insure packages/etc out of Canada is to have it registered, sent as an Expedited Parcel, Purolator or Xpresspost.

[Lost Monkey]

Even if a DVD went as lettermail, it should cost at least $2.80 (according to the Canada Post website for "letters" weighing 100-200 grams). For $.50 more you get insurance.

I got a completely different message from this the first time I read it.. I thought you were trying to say that I could purchase insurance for $.50... :oops: