What do you think of this? (Child age related to games)

[Funk Buddy]

Here is a quote from someone on the KC freecycle group.


My son has two PS2 games he would like to offer to another child. He is 9 years old and both games are above his age level (in my opinion). Both games are rated M for mature. I posted a brief description on both games which I pulled off of a gaming site. Both games come in the case with the user guide. Minimal scratching as he didn't care for either game. He said they were too hard for him.

1) Metal Gear Solid 2 – Sons of Liberty
2) Exterminator


#1 What's a nine year old doing with M rated games? Granted these two games are not that bad IMO. No where near GTA or something similar, but still killing people.

#2 The poster did say they should go to an older child, good job there.

#3 I find the part about "Minimal scratching as he didn't care for either game." quite funny! I guess that means they didn't get played a lot, so they didn't get handled ie scratched.

While this really is a pointless post, I wonder what you folks with kids say. I know this has been brought up in other topics about the level and type of games you let the tikes have at.

[kai123]

When and if I have kids.(God save us when that happens :P ) I would play through the game myself before hand to see how graphic it really is. I feel that I would have a upper hand over other parents in that I wouldn't mind playing the game with my kid to explain what is real and what isn't. I don't think I would let my kids play MGS 2 at 9 years old though. It is pretty graphic and the story may be a little too much for that age group. What with Otacon and his stepmom or whatever it was. x_x

[punkoffgirl]

Not sure why this is in Off Topic, but I'm going to push it on over to the gaming forum :)

[RCM]

I think if parents teach their kids general right from wrong rules they won't have to worry as much. I played violent games as a kid. It never escaped me that killing was wrong. If you raise your kids well and teach them it shouldn't be a huge issue. But there are fucked up people in the world who are going to rape and kill no matter what they have been taught.

THE ONE, THE ONLY- RCM

[Promophile]

One of my friends has a 6 year old brother. He plays just about every game we do. It hasn't harmed him in any way, he's a normal kid. In fact the kid is freaking awesome at games. He's 6 years old and can beat us sometimse in Smash Bros Melee or Mario party. Kinda reminds me of myself, when I was his age and beating adults at Killer Instinct at the arcade.

[Emily]

I think if parents teach their kids general right from wrong rules they won't have to worry as much. I played violent games as a kid. It never escaped me that killing was wrong. If you raise your kids well and teach them it shouldn't be a huge issue. But there are fucked up people in the world who are going to rape and kill no matter what they have been taught.

THE ONE, THE ONLY- RCM

Yeah, Same here! I have always had tons of hand-me-down games from my older cousins, and that includes quite a few "violant" titles. When I was younger I didnt play these that often because( on average) I sucked at them ;)

[Dahne]

Metal Gear Solid for everybody! :D

[Funk Buddy]

@ POG Didn't think it was for the regular VG forum, but ok.

I have played games since 1975 or so and I have played all types. My Mom didn't keep any type of game from me, but come on... what was really that bad in that era. Move on to the 8th grade, now if she would have gone through my C64 games I might have got in trouble. :D Then again, how bad was strip poker? On to 11th grade, still had the trusty 64 and that's it until the 90's and the Genesis.

I think most kids can handle the violent and gory "games" since they are just games. This totally depends on the household environment IMO. I think a parent would want to know what a game contained before their kid played it, but you can't control what other parents let their kids play. It's a never ending battle (today) for parents I'm sure with TV alone, causing uncomfortable questions. How do you say no to little johhny when he wants that neato army game, but can't have it because it's too real. Good for the adults, but not for kids. I hope they keep making games for children and figure out they don't have to be dumbed down, sacharine laden games.

[evildead2099]

Comparing games to one another solely on the basis of their ESRB rating can be like comparing apples to oranges. If I had a kid who was 9 years old, I'd be much more inclined to let that kid play an M-rated title Metal Gear Solid instead of M-rated titles like Manhunt or Grand Theft Auto.

You have to realize that ESRB ratings are recommendations; its up to partents/parental guardians to determine if their kids are mature enough to play certain games. If that nine year old kid is allowed to watch Schwarzenegger films (The typical sort, not ones like Jingle All the Way), I doubt that playing Metal Gear Solid is going to have a huge impact on that child's development or concept of appropriate conduct.

[Gapporin]

I think that games like MGS would be over most kids' heads anyways. "Outer Heaven what?"

[pixelsnpolygons]

I think the parent has every right to decide whether its okay for his kid, but the part about it being offered to another child is a little... odd. I watched A Nightmare on Elm Street and Total Recall, etc., as a young child - I was about 4 when I first saw A Nightmare on Elm Street. If you compare Metal Gear Solid with, say, The Terminator - most kids in the 80's and 90's watched that movie - no harm done. I don't think there's any harm, really - but it does depend - as some kid went psycho after she saw Scream. I have a 3 year old - I'll take him and violent games on a case by case basis - but as a general rule, by 9 I think he'd be ready for just about anything. It'd be more a case of how long I'd want him to keep some innocence.

[SMB]

I would love to see his face when he is watching the last parts of the game.

[EnemyZero]

yeah, my parents never regulated the games i had when i was a kid..but then again other than stuff like MK and splatterhouse there wasnt much bad stuff....either way i agree if the parents teach there kids right from wrong, they should be ok. When my daughter is old enough i am certainly going to regulare what she plays...i dont understand why they'd buy an m game but..its not just because of whats in the game..but alot of m games are too hard to grasp at such a young age...when i was little Final Fantasy was complex...and we've come a long way

[TheRedEye]

"Mommy, I don't like this game."

"Why not, sweetie?"

"The bad skeleton face man said that livejournal is an unnatural factor that is hindering the evolution of information. Also, Raiden is a faggot."

"Go to your room."

[Dahne]

They could develop a debilitating fear of fat men on roller skates. LOL

[evildead2099]

yeah, my parents never regulated the games i had when i was a kid..but then again other than stuff like MK and splatterhouse there wasnt much bad stuff...

That's true for the most part, but there are few contemporary games that can compare to Chiller in terms of how much "bad stuff" is encouraged.

[Anthony1]

This is an interesting topic, especically for me because I have two very young boys. One is 4 1/2, the other is 19 months.


I was playing Halo 2 the other day, and my wife and kids came home and my wife got mad because I was playing the game and the boys came in and watched it. She thought it was way too violent, and I thought about it and decided that she was probably right and I should turn it off.

So I don't think it's just an issue of letting a kid play a violent or adult type game, you also probably shouldn't let them watch you play it.


But back to the issue at hand, I personally plan to start my kids off with 16 bit games like SNES and Genesis stuff. Mario and Sonic type games.


But if you get real about it, killing in video games even occurs in Mario games. It just isn't displayed in a realistic manor. I mean you are jumping on enemies heads and then they dissappear. That's basically killing. If you want to get real basic about it.

The vast majority of video games out there are about eliminating the enemy one way or another.

[ianoid]

It all depends on the kid. There are no hard and fast rules. Very young kids are what you have to be most careful about since they are kind of senseless. But if a 6 yo plays with a 9 yo brother and has that comfort/role model, it may make some more shocking stuff easier to take- or at least ask about. Then again, a 2 yo probably won't get what's happening in an FPS, as reality testing is far from mature.

I am going to avoid adult themed games around my kids as long as possible. What I'll let them see or play will depend on my judgement of their understanding of the games and their likelyhood of modeling based on the games. I doubt that I'll expose my 6 yo (4 years to go) to anything overtly violent. Of course, jumping on a mushroom or kicking koopas or whatever will probably be kosher. Bugs Bunny is pretty violent- firing guns and anvils dropping on characters in these cartoons don't effectively communicate the consequences of these actions.

[Promophile]

Bugs Bunny is pretty violent- firing guns and anvils dropping on characters in these cartoons don't effectively communicate the consequences of these actions.

Hrm and yet your grandparents didn't drop anvils on your great-grandparents heads.

[MacNes]

I let my little brothers play any game until I saw the effects on my youngest(whos 7). After he had a few min in GTA and from watching me, he was talking about how funny and cool some of the stuff I had done, like robbing a bank and various other crimes I had commited. My 9 yr old brother on the other hand realizes that line between reality and games a lot better. So he can play it, but my youngest bro, I wont let him even watch it. Something that I found pretty funny though, the next day my youngest bro had allready created Carl Johnson in Tony Hawk 4, looked just like my outfit I had on him.

[goatdan]

Interestingly...

I was in a GameStop today taking advantage of the last day of the buy-two, get-one-free deal there and I saw two kids, probably age 8 walk up the the Xbox display, pick up the two GTA games there and say (I kid you not) "Hell yeah! It's Grand Theft Auto! It's Grant Theft Auto 2... no, three! This game kicks ASS!"

I have no clue where the parent was.

On one hand, I can remember a time when I knew stuff that was off-limits but still "got into it" anyways. Specifically, I figured out how to play Leisure Suit Larry. I don't think it scarred me for life.

On the other hand, I knew what I was doing was wrong. I had to "sneak" my time with Larry because I knew I wasn't supposed to be playing it. These two little kids were not just talking about the game (although they hadn't seemed to have played it), but using swears to describe what they thought of it. There was no parent around.

Obviously, you can't be with your kids all the time. But in a small shop like GameStop, I would definitely not just let my little kid run in there and start grabbing anything to look at. If I have children, when they are 8, they won't be getting GTA and parts of my collection will be under lock and key. On the other hand, depending on the game I would sit down and play with them. I haven't played Exterminator, but I wouldn't mind playing Metal Gear Solid with my child if I feel he or she is ready for that level of game. Note though: I would be playing the game _with_ my child.

I heard that there was a study done recently about when the brain starts to develop a sense of real and fantasy. I heard it was at about age 2. After that point, they realize that the cartoons aren't real, and they can do stuff that you can't do in real life. They realize that games aren't real, and you don't have "three lives" if you happen to walk off a cliff or get hit by a Koopa shell. A few bad apples don't make the entire medium bad.

At the same time, I definately wouldn't want to glorify realistic violence to someone at that age -- Understanding that Mario was able to beat Bowser is fine. Understand that you have to go cap some foo's ass because he stiffed a pimp's ho some money... Maybe when you're older. :)

[Promophile]

I was in a local gaming store and this kid and his dad came up and asked to play a game (at this store you can test games before you buy them, they have a couch and this fancy setup). Guess which game they bring up? BMX XXX. The employee tells the father he can't let them play because of nudity. The father then says, get this "What if I play and he just watches". Now I don't really care about nudity, my dad actually gave me a Playboy mag when I was like 10 to 12 ish, but I can't believe this guy wanting to play the game in the middle of a crowded gamestore, knowing about the nudity.

[mezrabad]

My 7 year old son and I played Kirby's Air Ride today and had a blast. Then we played Halo deathmatch together and had a blast. It's about my son and I having fun together, it isn't about ESRB ratings. The people who rate those games don't know me and don't know my son. I know my son, and he knows it's just a game. (It should be noted that we didn't play while my 3 year old daughter was awake, we played with her until her nap and then we did Kirby and Halo.)

I think it's more important to think for yourself and to play with your child (as opposed to "here, play this while I ignore you") than to mindlessly cling to ESRB ratings.

[Ed Oscuro]

Metal Gear Solid for everybody! :D
No...proper education before Hideovision starts messing with their minds. o_O

[Videogamerdaryll]

My 3 yr old son plays Halo & Halo 2 a lot..he's very good at them too for his age.
He was born to Halo..
He also plays most of the games on the Arcade machines.

I have a ton of learning system type stuff like Pico/Socrates for him..(plus all he'll get at Christmas)
Plus Sesame Street for the NES and Atari 2600...I let him play the Atari 2600 a lot ..but he's much better at the new age stuff.

I may let him play those games...but I will not let him play the GTA's...

[petewhitley]

In my experience (3yrs now) working in the world of child/famiily therapy, most professionals actually err on the side of NOT over-regulating their own kids exposure to violent media. I don't see many of my co-workers bringing home Manhunt, but I don't see them scouring their kids game collections for it either. It's pretty well-documented that holding desireable media away from children does more harm than good. Your best tactic is to allow it, but not promote or minimize it's impact. Left on their own, with gentle guidance, kids usually turn out allright. Extreme exposure or extreme denial is where you see the kind of kids that a guy like me gets assigned to "fixing" x_x .

[Dahne]

I don't see many of my co-workers bringing home Manhunt, but I don't see them scouring their kids game collections for it either.

Well they certainly should be!

Letting your children buy poorly made, overmarketed games is extremely irresponsible parenting. ;)

[jdc]

My three year old son has been watching me play video games ever since he was able to. He IS starting to get a grasp between what is real and not real. I've always stressed that the games were pretend and that the big boss monsters were ONLY in video games, not under his bed.

I'm starting to let him play games now, in very limited doses. We've started with kids games on the Genny and PSX, and Mario on the NES. I'm going to go and pick up a SNES for this purpose. He'll get racers on the N64. I'm holding off on the shooters until he's older although he's been watching Halo and Halo2 since launch day and is fully aware of who Master Chief is. He'll play plenty of PS2 platformers, which hold most of his interest. (cartoon characters, brightly colored worlds)

I don't think that the games themselves hurt. It's how you present them. He's seen me play Grand Theft Auto 3 on a few rare occassions......but I play the storyline. It might be different if he watched me run around in the game clubbing people while yelling "eat this, mutherfucker!!!" I don't allow him to watch his 19 yr old brother and friends play GTA.....because that is how they DO react.

[brykasch]

Yeah there are just so many variables when it comes to what may be right for a child to play. No household or enviornment is going to be the same.

My daughter is 2 1/2 and I play most games around her (sans gta games as there is way to much language in there I don't want her picking up). She knows that I am fighting bad guys and likes watching me play world of warcraft. Course right now she doesn't sit and watch me play very long she is too busy doing her things playing with toys etc, now as she gets a little older I may change what I do aorund her a little, but we'll see at that time.

[evildead2099]

I was in a local gaming store and this kid and his dad came up and asked to play a game (at this store you can test games before you buy them, they have a couch and this fancy setup). Guess which game they bring up? BMX XXX. The employee tells the father he can't let them play because of nudity. The father then says, get this "What if I play and he just watches". Now I don't really care about nudity, my dad actually gave me a Playboy mag when I was like 10 to 12 ish, but I can't believe this guy wanting to play the game in the middle of a crowded gamestore, knowing about the nudity.

I wonder if that store would have a problem with him playing something excessively violent like Mortal Kombat.

'Yeah, we don't mind if you show our customers how to brutally kick the shit out of your opponent - do all the fatalities you like! Just so long as the game won't show customers what the unclothed (read: NATURAL) human body looks like, anything you want to play is fine with us!'

[QBert]

I can't believe some of you guys let your kids watch/play Halo. Well, from the way kids are nowadays, I can believe it. Yes the ratings are not perfect or for everyone, but come on....give me 1 GOOD reason why any kid under even 12 should be playing games like that.

I have 2 boys, 7 and 5. I also have Halo and lots of other games like that. (Hitman, Pantzer Dragoon etc)
There is no F*$@ing way I'm letting them play those games. Oh they want to when they see the boxes, but I tell them NO (just like a parent should), and say when they are older they can play it as it's FOR GROWN UPS.
They understand.

Kids, little KIDS, should not be playing any type of game where it's obvious that you are KILLING other people. I know in Halo it's aliens, but same diff.

They are just as happy playing other games like mario, mario kart, rock n roll racing, 100's of arcade games...and many more that I could rattle off where they DON"T KILL PEOPLE.
Now, I do (sometimes) let them play games like Street Fighter, (not MK), King of Dragons....shit like that, but I find that when I do let them play those games, they want to wrestle and fight more.


I could go on, but why? is it going to change anything, no.

just when I read that more than 1 person here lets their 3 year old play this shit....that pissed me off. No reason for that shit at all.

Also, my kids are very mature and grown up for their ages.....doesn't mean I think they are ready to depict killing other humans.
- If they are exposed to it, hell yea they're gunna wanna play it.....wouldn't and don't you?

/rant

[ghostangelofcky]

This is a ? that has raised it's ugly head in our household as well.
My wife and I have a first child on the way in 5 months, and yes I'm excited as hell, words don't even describe it :D . We both are avid gamers and we both see it as "not that big of a deal"
But, at the same time with games like GTA and Leisure suit larry, we have to wonder. Mortal Kombat cam out when I was a wee lad and my parents bought it for me that christmas, even though it was the Gamegear version with bad frame rate on this so called "most violent" video game ever my parents didn't think anything of it. Same with music and pretty much everything else. But times are different, I suppose I'll just have to wait and see. My paerents rules on video games when I was younger was "If I want to play games on the Apple IIe I had to play that terrible Math Blaster game for an hour before I was allowed to delve into the world of King's Quest.

I think if anything that I am more looking forward to sitting down and enjoying my hobby with my son/daughter more than anything. :)

[Nature Boy]

It all depends on the kid. There are no hard and fast rules. Very young kids are what you have to be most careful about since they are kind of senseless. But if a 6 yo plays with a 9 yo brother and has that comfort/role model, it may make some more shocking stuff easier to take- or at least ask about. Then again, a 2 yo probably won't get what's happening in an FPS, as reality testing is far from mature.

I am going to avoid adult themed games around my kids as long as possible. What I'll let them see or play will depend on my judgement of their understanding of the games and their likelyhood of modeling based on the games. I doubt that I'll expose my 6 yo (4 years to go) to anything overtly violent. Of course, jumping on a mushroom or kicking koopas or whatever will probably be kosher. Bugs Bunny is pretty violent- firing guns and anvils dropping on characters in these cartoons don't effectively communicate the consequences of these actions.

This is pretty much exactly what I was going to say. I've got an 7.5 month old right now so it's a *long* ways away, but since I'm interested in these sorts of things anyway I think it'll be pretty easy for me to judge what I'm comfortable with him playing and what I'm not comfortable with.

The Bugs Bunny reference is strangly apt, as I've been buying those "Gold Collection" DVD sets and wondering what I'm gonna do. I'll probably let my son watch it as long as I know he knows that it's just a cartoon and you can't do that stuff in real life. I was certainly smart enough to know the difference when I was growing up (and the cartoons weren't as chopped up as they are now) so I'm sure he will be too.

[Aussie2B]

What ever happened to buying your child a Mario game or something? o_O I'm guessing that 9-year-old kid doesn't have the money or means to get those games himself, so what, out of all the options on the shelf the mom or dad thought those two were most suitable for their child? O_o Maybe it's just a case of indifferent parenting where they simply purchase whatever the child points out.

Anyway, I find this whole issue kind of strange because I never had any problems like this when I was a child. Games that were rated for an older audience just didn't appeal to me to begin with. When I was under 13, I liked Mario, Donkey Kong, Kirby, etc. I think the first Teen-rated game I ever bought was Killer Instinct Gold, and I was around 14 at the time. I started buying several Teen-rated games in my teen years, but yet again, the Mature-rated games simply didn't appeal to me. By the time I finally bought a Mature-rated game, I was 17 or 18. I never consciously waited to be old enough, and my parents never controlled what I played and watched either. I don't believe I ever really watched TV programs or movies that were rated for an audience older than I was either.

Likewise, I watch my 10-year-old sister-in-law play games, and she doesn't seem to have any interest in Teen and Mature rated games, for the most part. She's happy playing the same stuff that I played at that age (and it's by her own choice, no one is encouraging her to play those games and not to play others). Often she doesn't want to see scary stuff because it gives her nightmares.

I guess, though, I only know the outlook of a girl, so I'm sure little boys crave mature stuff much more than little girls.

[evildead2099]

I can't believe some of you guys let your kids watch/play Halo. Well, from the way kids are nowadays, I can believe it. Yes the ratings are not perfect or for everyone, but come on....give me 1 GOOD reason why any kid under even 12 should be playing games like that.

For the same reason that people who're as old as I am play Halo.

12 does seem like a young age for an individual to play a 'combat simulator,' but I would consider letting a 12 year old play Halo if that individual demonstrated that he/she was mature and that the activities portrayed within the game are not appropriate for the 'real' world. Halo is rated for audiences 18 and over, but I retrospectively doubt that it was would have 'corrupted' my sense of appropriate conduct if I played it at the age of 12.

[Promophile]

[quote=QBert]I can't believe some of you guys let your kids watch/play Halo. Well, from the way kids are nowadays, I can believe it. Yes the ratings are not perfect or for everyone, but come on....give me 1 GOOD reason why any kid under even 12 should be playing games like that.

It's kinda funny when you consider that 100 years ago 12-ish year olds were considered adults and were working / married.

[Keir]

My mother-in-law bought Vice City for her grandson when he was 9 or 10. Her reasoning was that it's no worse than any of the other games he plays. Some people just seem completely incapable of saying no to their kids. (I guess I should point out that she is his legal guardian, and not either of his parents.)

[QBert]

I can't believe some of you guys let your kids watch/play Halo. Well, from the way kids are nowadays, I can believe it. Yes the ratings are not perfect or for everyone, but come on....give me 1 GOOD reason why any kid under even 12 should be playing games like that.

For the same reason that people who're as old as I am play Halo.

12 does seem like a young age for an individual to play a 'combat simulator,' but I would consider letting a 12 year old play Halo if that individual demonstrated that he/she was mature and that the activities portrayed within the game are not appropriate for the 'real' world. Halo is rated for audiences 18 and over, but I retrospectively doubt that it was would have 'corrupted' my sense of appropriate conduct if I played it at the age of 12.

ok, maybe I should have stuck with the 3 year olds....I totally understand what you say regarding less than 12...and every person, kid is different.... but 3? 4?

What if you took identical twins and exposed one of them to 'combat simulators' at 3 and continued to do so until hes older. The other kid, expose him to only mario and kiddie games until they are older, then gradually advance him/her to more hardcore games.

You can't say it's not going to in some way have a negitive infulence on the one who's exposed to killing at an early age.

There's a reason they put those little rating on games....sure we don't all agree on them all, but they don't do it for fun.
I guess it doesn't matter, we still will have people out ther raising little snipers. :2gunfire:

[Promophile]

The fact of the matter is that violent media has NO IMPACT on real life violence by children. Take Japan, which has some of the most violent media in the world, but also has one of the lowest rates of childhood violence.

Disturbed kids don't become disturbed due to violent games, they become disturbed due to mental social, and sometimes physical problems.

[mezrabad]

I can't I could go on, but why? is it going to change anything, no.

just when I read that more than 1 person here lets their 3 year old play this shit....that pissed me off. No reason for that shit at all.

Also, my kids are very mature and grown up for their ages.....doesn't mean I think they are ready to depict killing other humans.

/rant

Don't get pissed off. I love my kids, too. I'm very careful about what media/situations/environments I let my kids experience. Which is why I don't let my particular 3 yr old daughter even watch Halo. Besides, she's a girl and prefers Bloodrayne. (JK) Seriously, people who know what their kids are playing (even if they aren't the choices you would make) aren't the problem, it's the people who have no earthly clue what their kids are playing/viewing and eventually smoking/injecting who are the real problem. Anyone who makes sure to know what their kids are doing are stepping in the right direction. You may already know this, I just wanted to underscore it.

By the way, my kid was playing "this group of toys is fighting with this group of toys" long before I let him even see a videogame. (Though, it's probably because he caught a few episodes of Pokemon.) I think the urge to kill and do violence is an instinct we all have and have to learn to control, the earlier the better.

The point I was trying to make earlier is that it's more important to play WITH them than it is to worry about the ESRB rating of what they play. That way, you can talk to them about what they are seeing and teach them big words like "decapitated" and "ensanguined" which makes a HUGE impression on the first grade teachers. (LOL, I slay me!)

I'm trying to expose my children to inappropriate material by small exposures to it and explaining why it's inappropriate, why the behavior in the game is NOT behavior to emulate and why such and such a game may or may not be crap. My son is 7 and will soon be entering the world of "other people" over whose behavior I have no control. He'll need to be able to make the distinction between appropriate and inappropriate content all by himself just like he has to make the distinction between his own appropriate and inapproprate behavior depending on where he is (school, home or guest in someone else's home).

Because of this "entercation" (opposite of "edutainment), my son is already learning how to make good choices about what is okay to play with me and what is okay to take out and play with his friends. He has also learned to turn down his friends when they want to play an inappropriate game on our systems. He doesn't say, "no, my dad won't let us" he says with confidence and conviction "no, that's not appropriate for us to play (the game was Time Crisis II), lets play Super Monkey Ball, instead".

I respect that you may disagree with me, but in my opinion the confidence and conviction he shows in choosing among videogames will serve him extremely well when he has to make choices as a tween/teenager concerning drugs, sex, fighting etc. At least that's my thinking, but, what do I know? My kids came "loose" as in "no box or manual". I really wish I'd picked up a manual.

[Cryomancer]

I'll never fully understand the complaints to GTA. Yeah, it's violent and sexual and profanity filled and whatnot, but where are people getting the idea that it's being glorified so much? I can't understand the guys going "this dude is so cool" while playing it. Mostly I say this in regards to vice city...am I the only one who played that and can sense that you're not actually supposed to like the characters, they are all vapid sterotypes and are, as far as I'm concerned, not to be worshipped but more so almost pitied? the game is basically saying "everyone was stupid in the 80s" to me, they all make poor decisions and whatnot. they all feel like some drug dealer who's caught up in delusion and can't think properly to me. Guess that's just my interpretation, anyone else sense this? I can't speak for san andreas as I haven't played it, and it wasn't really the case as much in GTA III, but after playing through vice city I in no way wanted to be anything like the characters.

But then again not many people pay attention to GTA for storyline so it's kinda pointless to say.

[Aussie2B]

The fact of the matter is that violent media has NO IMPACT on real life violence by children. Take Japan, which has some of the most violent media in the world, but also has one of the lowest rates of childhood violence.

I think you got your info backwards. The Japanese aren't big on violence, so that's why more family-oriented games have always been the norm there. However, they ARE very open about sex (a result of their culture being so sexually repressed before). The US, on the other hand, is relatively okay with violence being everywhere in the media, but sex is completely taboo.

Also, the main reason why they have a low rate of violence is because guns are virtually impossible to get (and of course, the lack of violent media surely makes some difference).

[evildead2099]

The fact of the matter is that violent media has NO IMPACT on real life violence by children. Take Japan, which has some of the most violent media in the world, but also has one of the lowest rates of childhood violence.

I think you got your info backwards. The Japanese aren't big on violence, so that's why more family-oriented games have always been the norm there. However, they ARE very open about sex (a result of their culture being so sexually repressed before). The US, on the other hand, is relatively okay with violence being everywhere in the media, but sex is completely taboo.

Also, the main reason why they have a low rate of violence is because guns are virtually impossible to get (and of course, the lack of violent media surely makes some difference).

I wouldn't say that the Japanese lack violent media. They do, however, approach violent media differently than average North Americans do. Although Mortal Kombat was readily available in Japan, it was not nearly as popular there is it was in North America because Japanese audiences felt that the game didn't offer sufficient incentives for performing fatalities on opponents.

[nesgamer]

I don't allow him to watch his 19 yr old brother and friends play GTA.....because that is how they DO react.

Wait. Did you say his 19 year old brother?

[mezrabad]

Mostly I say this in regards to vice city...am I the only one who played that and can sense that you're not actually supposed to like the characters, they are all vapid sterotypes and are, as far as I'm concerned, not to be worshipped but more so almost pitied?

YES! Actually, I noticed that in GTAIII, you're playing a turd floating in a sea of turds. No one has escaped corruption, (except maybe the paramedics and the firefighters), you're just doing to others what they'd all do to you if they had a baseball bat. In fact if you gave them all baseball bats, they'd be clubbing each other to death (and then clubbing the paramedics, 'cause you know they'd come). Quite poetic when you think about it.

[Promophile]

The fact of the matter is that violent media has NO IMPACT on real life violence by children. Take Japan, which has some of the most violent media in the world, but also has one of the lowest rates of childhood violence.

I think you got your info backwards. The Japanese aren't big on violence, so that's why more family-oriented games have always been the norm there. However, they ARE very open about sex (a result of their culture being so sexually repressed before). The US, on the other hand, is relatively okay with violence being everywhere in the media, but sex is completely taboo.

Also, the main reason why they have a low rate of violence is because guns are virtually impossible to get (and of course, the lack of violent media surely makes some difference).

One word

Akira.

[petewhitley]

However, they ARE very open about sex (a result of their culture being so sexually repressed before).

Not to threadjack, but they are?!? I'm pretty sure from some of your posts that you've also had some experience in Japan (correct me if I'm wrong). In my experience that is definitely NOT the case.

[Aussie2B]

However, they ARE very open about sex (a result of their culture being so sexually repressed before).

Not to threadjack, but they are?!? I'm pretty sure from some of your posts that you've also had some experience in Japan (correct me if I'm wrong). In my experience that is definitely NOT the case.

I don't have any experience in Japan unless you count me being way too obsessed with their products, culture, and language. :P

They're.... weird... about sex. o_O They still have all sorts of strange laws (actually, I don't know if they're true laws anymore or if they're just done out of tradition) like not being able to show pubic hair (they'll blur the area), the edge between the head and the shaft of a circumsized penis or one that has the foreskin rolled back (they'll usually put a black censor bar over it or in art they'll draw undetailed phallic shapes, hence why they love to use symbolic stuff like tentacles), or the clitoris (again, they'll use a censor bar). It can be kind of difficult to find uncensored Japanese porn or hentai.

BUT while they have issues with normal natural things like those, bizarre fetishes are becoming really common. They seem to be really fond of gadgets. A good chunk of Japanese porn just has a guy or two using all sorts of hilarious gadgets on a girl. The panties obsession is pretty bad too. I'd be almost scared riding a packed Japanese subway with so many "gropers" out there (and it's not just a silly, prank kind of thing; a lot of those gropers practically make an art of their techniques o_O ). I'm not even going to get into the REALLY sick stuff...

The easiest way to tell that Japan is more open to sex than violence is to just look at their entertainment. Yeah, there are violent games, anime, etc., but the amount of it is absolutely dwarfed by games with sexual content. The exact opposite is true of American entertainment.

Overall, I'd just say Japan society is still struggling to find a happy balance for their ids. They're polite and people-pleasers to the very end, but they have to learn how to not repress their sexuality without going overboard. In a way, the US is starting to go through the same process. There is a lot of extremely sexual stuff out there, but it's butting heads with the Puritanical history of America. I'll never understand why it's okay for parents to let their preteen girls idolize Britney Spears and Christina Aguilera gyrating around in suggested orgies, but Janet Jackson exposing a little nipple is the most horrifying thing ever. o_O

[petewhitley]

Hmmm. I'm not an expert, but I spent a couple of years in Japan and found the Japanese to be far more repressed about sexuality than Americans. Much of our Stateside exposure to Japanese culture highlights the extreme/unique/etc., and therefore it's easy to believe that the average Joe (or should that be the average Hiroshi, heh) identifies with what makes it's way over here. They don't. We've just been overexposed to that crazy underbelly.

[izret101]

If you think your kid is going to become psychotic due to exposure to these "violent" games don't give them to them and don't let them buy them. But DO NOT complain and bitch about it as a general situation and that action should be taken. You ruin it for those kids who do have the mental capacity to distinguish between reality and games.

[goatdan]

Wow... Whole lot of interesting stuff. Lemme see here:


My paerents rules on video games when I was younger was "If I want to play games on the Apple IIe I had to play that terrible Math Blaster game for an hour before I was allowed to delve into the world of King's Quest.

I loved Math Blaster, and I would often times find myself firing that game up after I had enough King's Quest. Seems as if we were playing the same stuff though :) Did you ever get to play Number / Fraction / Word Munchers? Those were some of my favorites.


I'll never fully understand the complaints to GTA. Yeah, it's violent and sexual and profanity filled and whatnot, but where are people getting the idea that it's being glorified so much? I can't understand the guys going "this dude is so cool" while playing it.

I think that Rockstar intended the games to be taken as a sarcastic look at society, but I don't think that you realize that when you are younger. There were times where I knew the game was being tounge-in-cheek about some of the stuff that was going on, but I know that had I been younger, I would've thought differently.

In 7th and 8th grade, I very vividly remember people listening to Snoop Dogg and then referring to girls as "bitches and hos" and talking about how great it is to drink gin and juice and smoke indo. Half of the people didn't know what was going on, but they figured it was fun because the music was good.

To put a modern spin on it, Eminem has been villified for the same reason -- that his music promotes gay bashing and hurting yourself and all that crap. I have some friends who are gay that think that he's a genius and don't take offense in any of what he says, but I worry that there are some people that hear something in a song they like and automatically believe it like I saw in the 7th and 8th grade. Those people probably shouldn't be listening to Eminem.

I do listen to his music, as well as Snoop's music (as well as heavy metal and other often "bad" types of music) and enjoy it. But when I have children, I won't be introducing them to that type of music until I know that they won't just go, "Gay people suck! Let's do drugs and have sex with hos!"

I think that the same precaution should be taken with GTA as well as certain other game series.


Not to threadjack, but they are?!? I'm pretty sure from some of your posts that you've also had some experience in Japan (correct me if I'm wrong). In my experience that is definitely NOT the case.

I have had the pleasure of visiting a few different countries and having friends throughout the world. From my observations, I'd say this about American Sexuality:

We demonize sexuality a lot more than other places, in my opinion because we worry that open sexuality will lead to children having sex at a younger age. Because of that, we try to hide it from them. What ends up happening is that we basically glorify it and make it a taboo thing that therefore people (children) are more curious about and therefore want to experiment with more and see more of.

Other countries don't hide it as much, but it tends to be more tasteful. When I was in France, looking out of our hotel window you could see an ad with a topless woman for perfume (I think). When I was flipping through the public channels at about 9:00 pm on a weekday, there was a full porno movie on one of the channels.

I was very young when I went to Norway, but I very much remember seeing a magazine cover that had a naked woman on it that was within my reach. It was kind of one of those "whoa" moments you don't forget because I think it was the first naked woman I had ever seen. (I was 7 or 8?)

The Chinese and Japanese are sort of the same way from what I have been told (I've got two friends from each country). It's there, but it is not overblown about what it is and isn't.

Ironically, this summer I went down to New Orleans. The stuff that you see in the French Quarter is MUCH more sexual than the stuff that you would see going to France or where ever, and it is of a much more explicit nature.

It all boils down to the fact that I think that by repressing it, we make it into something that is a lot more interesting than if it was just out in the open.


If you think your kid is going to become psychotic due to exposure to these "violent" games don't give them to them and don't let them buy them. But DO NOT complain and bitch about it as a general situation and that action should be taken. You ruin it for those kids who do have the mental capacity to distinguish between reality and games.

I'm just curious -- you sound like you think that the parents should be parents but kids should still be able to make the final decision. If you knew someone that was age 10 that had saved up $10.00 and he walked down to the nearest GameStop and asked to buy GTA III for the Xbox, do you think he should be able to get it without his parents being present?

I'm all for letting parents make decisions for their kids, but I agree that there should be a little protection help from society. I wouldn't want my kid to walk into a porn store and buy hardcore pornographic materials at age 10 even if I do feel that we are too repressed in America, and I wouldn't want them buying a M rated game without me until I knew I could trust them -- and 17 sounds about right for that to me.

[Anthony1]

If anybody wants to talk about something that pisses them off, you know what really pisses me off?


I went to the movies a number of years back, and saw the movie Pulp Fiction when it first came out. And there were people there with little kids. It made me freaking sick to my stomach to see young kids inside a movie theater with a movie like that playing on the screen.


And people wonder why America has so many psycho murderers.

[mezrabad]

If anybody wants to talk about something that pisses them off, you know what really pisses me off?

I went to the movies a number of years back, and saw the movie Pulp Fiction when it first came out. And there were people there with little kids. It made me freaking sick to my stomach to see young kids inside a movie theater with a movie like that playing on the screen.

And people wonder why America has so many psycho murderers.

Yeah, I felt the same way when I was at "Saving Private Ryan" and there was a woman there with an infant and a 4 year old. I mean that opening scene was basically "you are there" war, (without dying and getting shot at and with popcorn and a cherry coke). I must admit, I was feeling a little sick about that myself. I guess, having known how I felt seeing that, I can understand how a bunch of parents can feel a certain way hearing the kinds of games some of us let our kids play.

Still, larger than life, surround sound "Saving Private Ryan" with a four year old disturbs me. How many heads should a child see explode? It's one of the reasons I won't show my kid Raiders of the Lost Ark until he's like, 12.

[QBert]

I can't I could go on, but why? is it going to change anything, no.

just when I read that more than 1 person here lets their 3 year old play this shit....that pissed me off. No reason for that shit at all.

Also, my kids are very mature and grown up for their ages.....doesn't mean I think they are ready to depict killing other humans.

/rant

Don't get pissed off. I love my kids, too. I'm very careful about what media/situations/environments I let my kids experience. Which is why I don't let my particular 3 yr old daughter even watch Halo. Besides, she's a girl and prefers Bloodrayne. (JK) Seriously, people who know what their kids are playing (even if they aren't the choices you would make) aren't the problem, it's the people who have no earthly clue what their kids are playing/viewing and eventually smoking/injecting who are the real problem. Anyone who makes sure to know what their kids are doing are stepping in the right direction. You may already know this, I just wanted to underscore it.

By the way, my kid was playing "this group of toys is fighting with this group of toys" long before I let him even see a videogame. (Though, it's probably because he caught a few episodes of Pokemon.) I think the urge to kill and do violence is an instinct we all have and have to learn to control, the earlier the better.

The point I was trying to make earlier is that it's more important to play WITH them than it is to worry about the ESRB rating of what they play. That way, you can talk to them about what they are seeing and teach them big words like "decapitated" and "ensanguined" which makes a HUGE impression on the first grade teachers. (LOL, I slay me!)

I'm trying to expose my children to inappropriate material by small exposures to it and explaining why it's inappropriate, why the behavior in the game is NOT behavior to emulate and why such and such a game may or may not be crap. My son is 7 and will soon be entering the world of "other people" over whose behavior I have no control. He'll need to be able to make the distinction between appropriate and inappropriate content all by himself just like he has to make the distinction between his own appropriate and inapproprate behavior depending on where he is (school, home or guest in someone else's home).

Because of this "entercation" (opposite of "edutainment), my son is already learning how to make good choices about what is okay to play with me and what is okay to take out and play with his friends. He has also learned to turn down his friends when they want to play an inappropriate game on our systems. He doesn't say, "no, my dad won't let us" he says with confidence and conviction "no, that's not appropriate for us to play (the game was Time Crisis II), lets play Super Monkey Ball, instead".

I respect that you may disagree with me, but in my opinion the confidence and conviction he shows in choosing among videogames will serve him extremely well when he has to make choices as a tween/teenager concerning drugs, sex, fighting etc. At least that's my thinking, but, what do I know? My kids came "loose" as in "no box or manual". I really wish I'd picked up a manual.

No man, I don't totally disagree with you, as you made some good points here that I agree with. My kids are smart enough to know why i won't let them play certain games, and they are fine with that. (It's not just Dad saying NO, for no good reason)
Also they are too getting to that age where "other people" will have an influence on them too, and with me not being there all the time (we're split up, i get em on weekends. :( ) it's tough, but waddayado? They've got to get out there and learn things for themselves.

Basically I was upset that some people don't treat little kids like kids anymore, they are treated like small adults.....which can be fine, but can also be trouble too, depending on the situation.



Oh and to izret101, if this was directed at me:

If you think your kid is going to become psychotic due to exposure to these "violent" games don't give them to them and don't let them buy them. But DO NOT complain and bitch about it as a general situation and that action should be taken. You ruin it for those kids who do have the mental capacity to distinguish between reality and games.


Sorry pal, that's not how I think, nor what I said. I was just stating SOME people don't watch or care what their kids are doing....I do play games with my kids and I buy the games, not them. Also i wouldn't be worried about people like me ruining anything for kids who can't distinguish between reality and games.

[vulcanjedi]

Greetings programs.

I have found myself in a strange position of raising a family today after raising one in the early 80's.

I remember paying $4 each to rent beatem n eatem and custers revenge for the 2600 just to see what the hype was all about. And then waiting till the kids were all asleep. Then finding out just how stupid those games were :)

So even to this day there is a line I won't cross when kids are around based on nudity.

When it comes to violence I just make sure I am aware of what they are watching and playing. Actually I just make sure I am aware of whatever it is they are playing. There is a big difference between cartoon and live action violence. But I trust all of it to balance out. So if I'm playing Mark of Kri and my 6 year old is asking how I did that stealth assassin move I'll explain and not worry about it.

My 6 and 7 year olds would rather fluff match in fur fighters than frag in brute force :) So my daughter playing Virtua Fighter is no bigger of a deal than my son playing Spice World :)

What does worry me is when they both get goofy and put the teletubbies game in for more than an hour...

end of line

[izret101]

I'm just curious -- you sound like you think that the parents should be parents but kids should still be able to make the final decision. If you knew someone that was age 10 that had saved up $10.00 and he walked down to the nearest GameStop and asked to buy GTA III for the Xbox, do you think he should be able to get it without his parents being present?

I'm all for letting parents make decisions for their kids, but I agree that there should be a little protection help from society. I wouldn't want my kid to walk into a porn store and buy hardcore pornographic materials at age 10 even if I do feel that we are too repressed in America, and I wouldn't want them buying a M rated game without me until I knew I could trust them -- and 17 sounds about right for that to me.

I can understand parents needing to be present when i child is going to buy a M rated game. But there is really no reason for people to say that the sales of M rated games should be completely banned.the rule of a parent being their upon purchase that is good make them active in knowing what there kid is playing. Enforce that rule more strictly but there is no need for these people who take it to the extreme.


So basically i am arguing a similair point with you but i did not clarify myself well enough the first time.
At 16 i buy M games with a driving permit at the few places that actually card me.
Most have stopped because they remember me.

Also why do you not know your 10 year old is going to the pron store you live next to? @_@ LOL :P


And no Qbert that was just said in general

And Vulcan try this cheat and tell me if it works:
At the globe menu, hold the START button and press CIRCLE, TRIANGLE, TRIANGLE, CIRCLE. Then plress L1+L2+R1+R2+START+SELECT simultaneously to reset the game.
It says you get an alternate title screen with the Spice Girls Naked. Let me know if it happens and if your kids can still play the game if it does :D.
Couldn't up the last question.

[vulcanjedi]

and 17 sounds about right for that to me.

And Vulcan try this cheat and tell me if it works:
At the globe menu, hold the START button and press CIRCLE, TRIANGLE, TRIANGLE, CIRCLE. Then plress L1+L2+R1+R2+START+SELECT simultaneously to reset the game.
It says you get an alternate title screen with the Spice Girls Naked. Let me know if it happens and if your kids can still play the game if it does :D.
Couldn't up the last question.

That is just too funny. I remember at about the time it came out there were people that swore there was a tomb raider naked code :)

Yes it does show the spice girls completely absolutely naked with no clothes on.

Hey, that reminds me. My third most popular web page is all about the 1982 coleco game Smurfs where there is a glitch ( or deliberate programming ) that makes Smurfette get slightly naked. Chect it out for a laugh.
http://www.vulcanjedi.com/smurfette.htm

btw, if my 6 year old was able to do the code for the naked spice girls I may just have to let him see that.

And lastly I do play Conker's bad fur day in front of my kids. We have never laughed so hard while playing any game as we did when the poo monster wanted corn...

VJ

[izret101]

I have seen that cheat in a rather respectable videogame magazine for the last 3 years and i have never heard of them having a code that did not work.
Oh yes of course i mean Tips & Tricks.

Also to finish my direct quote from their magazine it says "You'll get an alternate title screen that shows the Spice Girls... naked?"

[goatdan]

I can understand parents needing to be present when i child is going to buy a M rated game. But there is really no reason for people to say that the sales of M rated games should be completely banned.the rule of a parent being their upon purchase that is good make them active in knowing what there kid is playing. Enforce that rule more strictly but there is no need for these people who take it to the extreme.

I don't know of one person in this thread that said that M rated games should be banned. I for one would be totally against that. At the same time, when / if I have children, I know that I won't be able to watch them all of the time. I got into stuff that my parents probably didn't want me seeing, but it wasn't as easy as going out to a store and just asking for it. I'm sure my kids will get into stuff too... But I don't want them looking at games at Target or somewhere while I'm shopping and then meeting me on the way out at age 10 with GTA in tow.


Also why do you not know your 10 year old is going to the pron store you live next to? @_@ LOL :P

My point was that if I had a 10 year old and lived near a porn store (I have neither a 10 year old or live anywhere near a porn store that I know of) I wouldn't want him or her just going outside to play for a few minutes and then coming home with a magazine that they sold him. :)