In Hindsight, Atari Jaguar seems very 16 bit to me

[Anthony1]

After playing a number of Jag games, I've convinced myself that the Jag really wasn't a 64 bit system.

You can talk about Tom and Jerry and all this crap until you are blue in your face, but I really don't give a damn.

If you were to put every Jaguar game on a TV and line all the TV's up, the games look very 16 bit. Certainly, the Jag if it is to be considered 16-Bit would definitely be a turbocharged 16 bitter, with advanced 16 bit graphics, but quite honestly I just don't see this thing as anthing close to a 64 bit system. I don't even see it as a 32 bit system.

To me it's a 16 bit system that is supercharged with some special effects. That's about it.

I mean, look at Bubsy and Zool and Cannon Fodder and Troy Aikmen football, etc, etc ,etc.

Try to tell me that these are really 64 bit games or even 32 bit games.

I'm sorry, but I don't see it.

Nothing against the Jag, I still like it quite a bit, but I think when looking back at that system, it should almost be classified along with the Genesis, SNES, Sega CD and those type of systems.

[orangemage]

i believe that it had 2 32bit processors (32+32=64, do the math LOL ) yeah most of the games didn't look better then anything on the 32X

[Anthony1]

i believe that it had 2 32bit processors (32+32=64, do the math LOL ) yeah most of the games didn't look better then anything on the 32X


Speaking of systems pretending to be more advanced then they really are....


32X is very much in that category. Again, I see the 32X as being a 16 bit system, despite the name. I can't think of any 32X games that actually "look" like 32 bit games. Not only that, the 32X would brag about 32,000 colors or whatever, and I never saw those either. Looks basically just like Genesis with a Super FX chip or something.

[Algol]

Supposedly, it was a very difficult system to program, and many developers just weren't sure how to push the system. That's why many games aren't that much better than 16 bit stuff.

[Daniel Thomas]

The whole '64-bit' tag was little more than a marketing line. Those numbers don't mean anything when consoles use multiple processors for various tasks.

I remember back when Atari claimed that the Lynx had 32-bit audio, because it had four 8-bit sound channels. The Jaguar was the same nonsense. The console was just barely above the level of the Genesis and Super Nintendo. It did pump out some great color, but so what?

It's embarassing to think that Atari seriously promoted this console. It never had a chance.

[jonjandran]

Actually the jaguar had a 16bit processor and a 64bit graphics chip.

So they chose to bill it as "64bit" .. :roll:

But it was more like 16bit+

[Kid Ice]

I guess it depends on what a 32-bit or 64-bit game looks like to you. When I think 16-bit I think Genesis, and there are a number of Jaguar games (Iron Soldier, Battlesphere, Protector, Fight for Life, Checkered Flag, sheesh a lot of them) that couldn't have possibly been done on a Genesis.

I do agree that Jag games don't look anything like 32-bit and 64-bit games if you're using the Playstation and N64 as standards.

[K3V]

This debate has been done a zillion times, (thank EGM for the 32+32 theory), so I'll just quote the Jaguar FAQ:


Q. Was the Jaguar really a 64-bit system?

A. The question is hard to resolve, largely because the definition of what
constitutes an "N-bit" system has not been set. Of the five processors in
the Jaguar, only the object processor and the blitter are "true" 64-bit
components. Because the blitter and the object processor are in the Tom
chip, by extension Tom is a 64-bit chip. Furthermore, the Jaguar also
used a 64-bit memory architecture, according to Jez San of Argonaut
Software.

Some say the Jaguar should be considered a 32-bit system, as that is the
maximum register size in the programmable processors (the 68000, the
graphics processor, and the DMA sound processor). Others say the Jaguar
can be considered a 64-bit system, because 64-bit components are used, and
the GPU can access 64 bits of data if required. Again, the lack of an
agreed-upon definition serves to complicate the issue.

According to Jaguar designer John Mathieson, "Jaguar has a 64-bit memory
interface to get a high bandwidth out of cheap DRAM. ... Where the system
needs to be 64 bit then it is 64 bit, so the Object Processor, which takes
data from DRAM and builds the display is 64 bit; and the blitter, which
does all the 3D rendering, screen clearing, and pixel shuffling, is 64
bit. Where the system does not need to be 64 bit, it isn't. There is no
point in a 64 bit address space in a games console! 3D calculations and
audio processing do not generally use 64-bit numbers, so there would be no
advantage to 64 bit processors for this.

"Jaguar has the data shifting power of a 64 bit system, which is what
matters for games, so can reasonably be considered a 64 bit system. But
that doesn't mean it has to be 64 bits throughout."

For the record, the opinion of most third party developers and observers
is that the Jaguar is indeed a 64-bit system. The emphasis is on the word
"system"; while not every component is 64 bits, the Jaguar architecture,
as a COMPLETE SYSTEM, is.

To see the power of the system you need to play games created for the system, not ports from 16 bit platforms. See Tempest 2000, BattleMorph, Iron Soldier 1 + 2, BattleSphere, Zero 5, Alien Vs Predator, etc.

[yuppicide]

Don't forget the Turbo Grafx-16. Wasn't that really an 8-bit processor and 8-bit sound?!

[Jorpho]

I'm pretty sure the TG-16 had 16-bit graphics of some sort.

Anyway, as mentioned in the above article, at the heart of the Jaguar there was indeed a 16-bit Motorola 68k processor, just like in the Genesis, Amiga, Macintosh, CDi, Neo Geo, et cetera. It has been suggested that programmers were really quite content to do what they could with the familiar 68k, even though the Jaguar really was capable of many things with the other processors included in the unit. The 68k was really just meant to orchestrate everything. Untapped potential, y'see.

[PDorr3]

well alien vs predator seems like a 32 bit game, but everything else...16bit..

[FABombjoy]

Using "bits" to determine theoretical capabilities is misleading anyway. Remember, the 386 and Pentium 4 are both 32-bit.

[GaijinPunch]

Speaking of systems pretending to be more advanced then they really are...32X is very much in that category. Again, I see the 32X as being a 16 bit system, despite the name. I can't think of any 32X games that actually "look" like 32 bit games.

Space Harrier

[Graham Mitchell]

Tempest 2000 looked pretty damn good to me. I don't think that could have been done on the SNES or Genesis. Playstation and Saturn weren't around then, either, so that game was the shit for awhile.

[le geek]

The Jag, game for game, was a dissapointment, but play Iron Soldier and Tempest 2000 and tell me they could be done on the Genesis or SNES...

Cheers,
Ben

[NoahsMyBro]

I feel foolish for even entering this very tired, and very silly and pointless topic, but I just wanted to point out that while we're throwing around the 'bit-ness' of various consoles, the Intellivision was 16-bit.

Does anybody reading still believe the 'bits' of a system matter?

[Graham Mitchell]

I feel foolish for even entering this very tired, and very silly and pointless topic, but I just wanted to point out that while we're throwing around the 'bit-ness' of various consoles, the Intellivision was 16-bit.

Does anybody reading still believe the 'bits' of a system matter?

No, I don't think it ever really has, and that's why I posted in the first place. Thank you for having the guts to say it.

[crazyjackcsa]

Do "Bits" Matter? Not really. To take a modern take on it, Do Polygon counts matter? Not really. Especially Whe certain companies, ie Sony. Take the total maximum flat shaded no effects no AI numbers. It sells to the casual gamer, that's it, that's all.

[Anthony1]

The Jag, game for game, was a dissapointment, but play Iron Soldier and Tempest 2000 and tell me they could be done on the Genesis or SNES...

Cheers,
Ben


There isn't any question, that there are "certain" jaguar games that couldn't be done on the SNES or Genny, but does that mean that the Jag wasn't essentially a "souped up" 16 bit system ?

No.


When the SNES got the Super FX chip, it could do Starfox. When the Genesis got that special chip, it could do Virtua Racing.

So basically, the way that I look at it, is that the Jaguar was basically a 16 bit system, but it came towards the end of the lifespan of 16 bit technology, and it definitely had some extra features and effects to take it beyond ordinary 16 bit gaming, but can you really consider the Jag to be a true 32 bit or 64 bit system?

Hell no.


But again, I do agree that the Jag had a "few" advanced games that seemed quite a bit beyond what the SNES and Genny could do. For example, consider the Jag port of Doom. Compare the Jag port of Doom with the SNES port of Doom, and it actually looks like the Jag is far beyond 16 bit. And Aliens vs. Predator definitely looks like it's beyond 16-bit. Cybermorph, while similar to Starfox on the SNES, is way beyond what Starfox can do. But if Nintendo had come out with a new, modern 16 bit system, at the same time that the Jag was released, it would have been dramatically better as well, and it would have easily been able to do games like AVP and Cybermorph.


Sure, this is a childish discussion, that has been done to death a million times, but it's still fun.

[badinsults]

Bit rate is a rather silly thing to judge the power of a console. I mean, most people would agree that the Xbox is the most powerful console out right now, followed by the Gamecube. However, the Xbox is 32 bit, the GC is 64, and the PS2 is 128. Of course, people have argued the bit rate of all these consoles, but in reality it is of little meaning, except to the people developing for them.

[Naouruki]

i believe that it had 2 32bit processors (32+32=64, do the math LOL ) yeah most of the games didn't look better then anything on the 32X


Speaking of systems pretending to be more advanced then they really are....


32X is very much in that category. Again, I see the 32X as being a 16 bit system, despite the name. I can't think of any 32X games that actually "look" like 32 bit games. Not only that, the 32X would brag about 32,000 colors or whatever, and I never saw those either. Looks basically just like Genesis with a Super FX chip or something.

Show me a 16-bit console that can handle Virtua Fighter or Virtua Racing the way way the 32X does, and I may believe you. Or its port of Space Harrier. Even the very clear and large resolution of the video in the DP 32X CD games.


You cannot, and as such, this is merely yet another rant from yet another person who has barely had experience with something game-related and suddenly considers himself fit to pass judgment on everything about it.

[ubersaurus]

After playing a number of Jag games, I've convinced myself that the Jag really wasn't a 64 bit system.

You can talk about Tom and Jerry and all this crap until you are blue in your face, but I really don't give a damn.

If you were to put every Jaguar game on a TV and line all the TV's up, the games look very 16 bit. Certainly, the Jag if it is to be considered 16-Bit would definitely be a turbocharged 16 bitter, with advanced 16 bit graphics, but quite honestly I just don't see this thing as anthing close to a 64 bit system. I don't even see it as a 32 bit system.

To me it's a 16 bit system that is supercharged with some special effects. That's about it.

I mean, look at Bubsy and Zool and Cannon Fodder and Troy Aikmen football, etc, etc ,etc.

Try to tell me that these are really 64 bit games or even 32 bit games.

I'm sorry, but I don't see it.

Nothing against the Jag, I still like it quite a bit, but I think when looking back at that system, it should almost be classified along with the Genesis, SNES, Sega CD and those type of systems.

Actually, from what I read, it was set up so that developers could program games in a more familiar 16 bit mode until they got the hang of developing the more powerful stuff. What actually happened is people just did quickie ports of 16 bit games because it was easy, and no one really bothered to use it's power.

So in a sense, yes, the games did look 16 bit...but Battlesphere, Tempest 2k, AVP, and such forth all had the visual look of 32 bit era system.

[thegreatescape]

You cannot, and as such, there is merely yet another rant from yet another person who has barely had experience with something anthony1 related and suddenly considers himself fit to pass judgment on everything about him.
quote edited for perspective.

As for the actual subject, I dont think its entirely fair to compare games like Star Fox and virtua racing that were both released at a time when developers where fully aware of what their respective consoles could do, to anything released on the Jag or 32X which lived short, cursed lives.

[Naouruki]

You cannot, and as such, there is merely yet another rant from yet another person who has barely had experience with something anthony1 related and suddenly considers himself fit to pass judgment on everything about him.
quote edited for perspective.



Cute, iditoic, and laughably pathetic from a total ass of a pseudo-elitist member of a boatrd who has a lot of posts and as such beleives he can spew out bullshit down his nose towards others because he has a lot of posts, all at the same time. Get your lips of your own ass, it's no wonder your 'perspective' is so skewed.

Where ddi I judge anthony1 as a person or everything about him? Please, do tell. On other other hand his writing off the 32X as having merely the capabilities of a 16 bit machine is pathetic - VF alone is testament to that, despite the short life of the machine, and despite the fact that games that do not show the prowess of a machine are no proof of its lack thereof. Anthony1's argument would resonate with one sole crowd, the third-graders on the playground. 'TETRIS IS BLOCKY AND UGLY SO GAMEBOY IS TEH SUCKY!!!!'

[thegreatescape]

Dude this isnt gamefaqs, and we're not all out to shove FF7 down your throat and hate on you for playing 32X, nes and n-gage so save the condescending tone for that other board.

There were plans for a genesis SVP enchanced Virtua Fighter port and though it wouldnt have have the speed of the 32X version, if VR is anything to go by it would have been damn good. Not to take anything away from the 32X, but there are always comparisons between late gen games and early ones for new systems, and in this case they are perfectly valid (though a bit harsh).
You'll also be hard pressed to find someone that doesnt think tetris is blocky :P

[anagrama]

*Bangs. Head. Against. Table*
This. Has. Been. Done. To. Death.
"Bits". Mean. Nothing.
End.

[sabre2922]

the jag had two 16-bit graphic processors but the bandwith was 64-bit.
It was basically a pumped up 16-bit console.
All in all the Jag really wasnt a terrible system and had good to great potential.
but of course the only games that truly showed this were a select few >l Alien vs. Predator.

[YoshiM]

The Jag, game for game, was a dissapointment, but play Iron Soldier and Tempest 2000 and tell me they could be done on the Genesis or SNES...

Cheers,
Ben


There isn't any question, that there are "certain" jaguar games that couldn't be done on the SNES or Genny, but does that mean that the Jag wasn't essentially a "souped up" 16 bit system ?

No.


When the SNES got the Super FX chip, it could do Starfox. When the Genesis got that special chip, it could do Virtua Racing.

So basically, the way that I look at it, is that the Jaguar was basically a 16 bit system, but it came towards the end of the lifespan of 16 bit technology, and it definitely had some extra features and effects to take it beyond ordinary 16 bit gaming, but can you really consider the Jag to be a true 32 bit or 64 bit system?

Hell no.


But again, I do agree that the Jag had a "few" advanced games that seemed quite a bit beyond what the SNES and Genny could do. For example, consider the Jag port of Doom. Compare the Jag port of Doom with the SNES port of Doom, and it actually looks like the Jag is far beyond 16 bit. And Aliens vs. Predator definitely looks like it's beyond 16-bit. Cybermorph, while similar to Starfox on the SNES, is way beyond what Starfox can do. But if Nintendo had come out with a new, modern 16 bit system, at the same time that the Jag was released, it would have been dramatically better as well, and it would have easily been able to do games like AVP and Cybermorph.


Sure, this is a childish discussion, that has been done to death a million times, but it's still fun.

Ahhh, the age old debate. Love it.

Anyway, when you say "true 32 bit", what do you mean? Are you using the Playstation as a benchmark? The N64? That's like saying an old RCA "Home Theater" projection television isn't really "Home Theater" because it couldn't do 16:9. I'm not a fan of the Jaguar (except for Tempest 2K, awesome game) I WILL say that games that were designed to actually make use of the hardware were above and beyond (at least in capability, not necessarily good games) what was available from the leading 16 bit consoles.

This leads into your "When the SNES got the Super FX chip, it could do Starfox. When the Genesis got that special chip, it could do Virtua Racing." statement. Same thing with the NES and the more powerful MMC chips being able to get "16 bit quality" without having a 16 bit system (Super Mario 3 was touted to give you "16 bit quality", if I'm not mistaken). The thing is those games were more expensive (can't remember Star Fox's price but V.R. was $99) and, while increasing the overall power, were still limited visually and aurally by the platform they were on. That's why the 32X had the video pumped out through IT rather than the Genesis console itself. So while the added chips could net you "x-bit like" cartridge it's still not going to give you what the next higher level of hardware is capable of.

I believe if the Jaguar got more attention and developers were able to get a better grip on the system's architecture there probably wouldn't be as many debates about the Jag and its "bits".

[Gregory DG]

After reading that "Art of Trolling thread" I can't help but wonder about this one... :roll:

[goatdan]

I think that the original poster was correct though. All Jaguar games do closely resemble Intellivision games, but nothing comes close to the power of the Xbox, which is supposedly only half as powerful as the Jaguar.. I do think the games look slightly better than Intellivision games, so I call the Jaguar a 20 bit machine.

Since my Saturn and Playstation look like hell compared to my Xbox, I've decided they must be no more than 24 bit machines. Especially because the "N64" must have had less than the Xbox's 32 bits. I'd probably put it at 26. And the Dreamcast / PS2 can go at the 30 level. The GameCube is harder to put into a category, because it is a little less powerful than the Xbox, although more powerful than the DC / PS2.

The GameCube is clearly 31.5 bits.

Oh, and the SNES missed it's marketing opportunity, as it was obviously 19 bits, which clearly trumps the Genesis's 18 bits.

No one can disagree with that either, because it is obvious that the bits of the chips is all that have to do with the power of the console. It is really obvious to me that my 2.8 GHz P4 chip must really be a 64 bit processor because of my NVidea graphics card, that must be at least 128 bits because it makes things look better than my Xbox by FAR.

It's too bad all those systems had to be clumped between the 16 bit Intellivision and the 32 bit Xbox. It really sucks that Atari had to do this stupid "bit" thing and lie to us.

By the way, why don't more of us talk about the NES being a 17 bit machine? I really thought it looked better than the Intellivision... am I the only one? Maybe I'm in the minority, but I think that Super Mario Brothers 3 is nicer looking than Astrosmash, for instance.

Argh. It's all so hard to track, and it is just too bad that all these companies had to make up their bits for stupid marketing schemes...

[fishsandwich]

Silliness, all. The Jag has a 16-bit CPU for general functions, but many half-ass developers used it as the main GPU and ignored the two specialized GPU's that had considerably more power.

Similar story for 32x... developers used the Genny's 16-bit CPU for background graphics and just used the 32x chips for front graphics, a big waste of power (Mortal Kombat 2! Pitfall! Primal Rage!) The 32x has two genuine, true-blue 32 bit CPU's that weren't used like they should have been...just a lot of mildly enhanced Genny games.

Neither console lived long enough or received enough support from first-rate developers to show their true capabilities. Both will blow away the SNES, Genny, and Neo-Geo when it comes down to 3-D. No contest, game over.

I don't care how many FX chips you put in your SNES carts or how many SVP chips you put in your Genny carts... neither the SNES or the Genesis would have ever, EVER, *EVER* been able to come close to duplicating the speed and visuals of Iron Soldier 2, Skyhammer, Zero 5, Virtua Fighter, DarXide, or the unreleased X-Men: Mind Games. No way, no how.

Cheers

:roll:

[Jorpho]

After reading that "Art of Trolling thread" I can't help but wonder about this one... :roll:

I missed that one.

Anyone else here remember the demo footage for the unreleased Jaguar game, "Black Ice White Noise", that was released a few years back?

[goatdan]

After reading that "Art of Trolling thread" I can't help but wonder about this one... :roll:

I missed that one.

Anyone else here remember the demo footage for the unreleased Jaguar game, "Black Ice White Noise", that was released a few years back?

The proto was actually released somewhere as a free download, I believe from the authors.

BIWN is pretty slick. Atari's Shenmue, more or less.

[Jorpho]

BIWN is pretty slick. Atari's Shenmue, more or less.

Eh... I can't see it succeeding with the FMV NPCs, even in the era when it was to be released.

[evilmess]

BIWN is pretty slick. Atari's Shenmue, more or less.

Eh... I can't see it succeeding with the FMV NPCs, even in the era when it was to be released.

Yeah BIWN is pretty cool looking. The amazing for it's time Crusader No Remorse and No Regret had FMV NPC's and it worked well back in 1996/97 in a kitchy sorta way. http://users.pandora.be/eforum/emoticons4u/happy/962.gif

[Anthony1]

Just one last thing on this....


When I was talking about how the Jag and 32X are very 16 bit to me, and that I would basically classify them as turbocharged 16 bit machines, what I was talking about, wasn't the potential of the systems, but the actual realities of the systems.

Not what could have been done with them if developers really took advantage of their power, but what actually was done.


I think if you had 100 television monitors, and 80 of them had Genesis games running, and 20 of them had 32x games running, and they were all mixed in with each other, and you asked some 15 year old to tell you which of the games were on a more powerfull system, and all you could see is the screen and you didn't know which system it was, I think the kid wouldn't be able to tell the difference.

That was the point that I was trying to make.


Same thing if you took all the Jag games and mixed them in with SNES games on 100 monitors. Although the kid would probably pick AVP out in a crowd.

I will give the Jag AVP. That game actually does look far beyond 16 bit, but the rest of it could have been mistaken for a very advanced 16 bit game.

That's all I'm trying to say. I'm not trying to put down the Jaguar or 32X and say that they suck. They both have their merits and their place in gaming history.

I bought both systems the first day that they were available and I had alot of fun with both. Especially the Jag.

[goatdan]

I think if you had 100 television monitors, and 80 of them had Genesis games running, and 20 of them had 32x games running, and they were all mixed in with each other, and you asked some 15 year old to tell you which of the games were on a more powerfull system, and all you could see is the screen and you didn't know which system it was, I think the kid wouldn't be able to tell the difference.

That was the point that I was trying to make.

If that was the point that you were trying to make, what does it matter what the "bit-ness" is? If you did that with a SNES and a Playstation and only put Killer Instict and the Donkey Kong Country series on the SNES and early 2D Playstation games (Raiden Project, for instance) side by side, the graphics of the SNES are easily going to hold their weight.

It isn't fair to look at a system that was developed on to the point that it reached its full potential and compare it to a system that never really made it off the ground.

And even with that having been said, there are a lot of games that look and play a hell of a lot better on the Jaguar than their counterparts. NBA Jam TE is near arcade-perfect. Zoop plays a million times better on the Jaguar than on the Genesis. Zool 2, while suffering from slowdown on the Jaguar is light years ahead of Zool for the Genesis or SNES. Raiden on the Jaguar is another arcade-perfect port that handily eclipses the other console versions. DOOM is, according to iD, the best port of the original ever. Same with Wolfenstein 3D.

Cybermorph was truly a revolutionary game, even if it looks like Star Fox. It was the first time the go-anywhere game concept came into being. It may seem like nothing now, but it was a major step forward and a lot of people thought Atari was stupid for packing it in with the system because it would've sold a lot of copies.

Then, if you want to take a look at games that couldn't have been done as good on either the SNES or the Genesis, you can look at Ultra Vortek, Defender 2000, Super Burnout, Trevor McFur and Val D'Isre... and that's just for 2D.

If you're looking at 3D, neither the Genesis or SNES could have handled Alien Vs. Predator, Tempest 2000, Iron Soldier, Cybermorph, Battlemorph, BattleSphere, Missile Command 3D, Skyhammer, Towers 2, Zero 5, I-War, Hover Strike and World Tour Racing.

So, you're looking at roughly half the Jaguar library being games that couldn't be done on other systems. Now, since the Jaguar only really lived for two years, the programmers never really took full advantage of it's hardware. Donkey Kong Country came out late in the SNES's life for instance. If games like Trevor McFur, AvP and Tempest 2000 were near-launch titles, think about the upgrades that could have been made had the system stuck around.

So anyway, your bit argument is tired and pointless -- I challenge you to find one game with my 32 bit Xbox that does not look nicer than my 64 bit N64. Your argument that the entire library of both the Jaguar and the 32X (which I'm not touching this post, but could do the same thing with) is rendered nearly moot if you go through half the games on the system.

The Jaguar was a 64 bit machine. It was a pointless marketing scheme that backfired when EGM decided to challenge them on it. As I recall though, EGM isn't always right -- EGM also claimed that the Jaguar Virtuality Headset that was on display at E3 in 95 (?) was an arcade game hooked up with a Jaguar shell to make it look like it was functioning.

I've played the real thing, and it's absolutely mind-blowing how well it works. EGM was wrong about that too. And there is no way that the SNES or Geni could have handled a VR attachment like that.

[fishsandwich]

Just one last thing on this....


When I was talking about how the Jag and 32X are very 16 bit to me, and that I would basically classify them as turbocharged 16 bit machines, what I was talking about, wasn't the potential of the systems, but the actual realities of the systems.

Not what could have been done with them if developers really took advantage of their power, but what actually was done.


I think if you had 100 television monitors, and 80 of them had Genesis games running, and 20 of them had 32x games running, and they were all mixed in with each other, and you asked some 15 year old to tell you which of the games were on a more powerfull system, and all you could see is the screen and you didn't know which system it was, I think the kid wouldn't be able to tell the difference.

That was the point that I was trying to make.


Same thing if you took all the Jag games and mixed them in with SNES games on 100 monitors. Although the kid would probably pick AVP out in a crowd.

I will give the Jag AVP. That game actually does look far beyond 16 bit, but the rest of it could have been mistaken for a very advanced 16 bit game.

That's all I'm trying to say. I'm not trying to put down the Jaguar or 32X and say that they suck. They both have their merits and their place in gaming history.

I bought both systems the first day that they were available and I had alot of fun with both. Especially the Jag.

Put the MOST ADVANCED Jaguar and 32x games and mix them in with those Genny and SNES games and even the stupidest 15 year old will pick out DOOM, AVP, VF 32x, and DarXide.

Cheers

:D

[Iron Draggon]

No way that Ruiner Pinball could've been done the same way on Genesis or SNES, and that game isn't one that anybody typically cites as showcasing the power of the Jag at all. But if you have the opportunity, play it and check it out. Notice the amount of colors. No way that this could've been done on Genesis or SNES. Maybe on 32X, but that's certainly the only system in the same era that could've handled it. Now notice the effects that occur when the game goes into multiball mode. Now way that you would ever see such smooth scaling on Genesis or SNES. Again, only the 32X could match this. I'm not looking at it right now, but I'm sure that I could point out other little details about it that could never have been done on Genesis or SNES. So IMHO, the Jaguar was basically a very worthy competitor for the 32X, and I would say the superior competitor at that. As for the N64, I'd say that it blew the Jag away, but if the Jag had ever been pushed to it's limits as well as the N64 was, then those two were probably on even ground as well. I would have to agree though, that it's about the same thing as the Turbo is for the 8BIT era. Just a supercharged 16BIT system. But a very good one.

[Kid Ice]

I think if you had 100 television monitors, and 80 of them had Genesis games running, and 20 of them had 32x games running, and they were all mixed in with each other, and you asked some 15 year old to tell you which of the games were on a more powerfull system, and all you could see is the screen and you didn't know which system it was, I think the kid wouldn't be able to tell the difference.


I find this methodology questionable. Why couldn't it be half and half? With that many screens it's hard to pick out anything. I say make it five Genny and five 32X games. Still think it would be hard to tell? And why not ask a 25 year old who has probably played some 16-bit games? Present company excluded, most 15 year olds don't know anything earlier than the PSX or the N64.

And hey, wasn't this thread about the Jaguar?

[Charlesaway]

Factually, was the Jaguar a 16 bit system? No. It was, at the very least, a 32-bit system, and probably a 64-bit system.

Can you say the games seemed 16-bit(ty?)? Yes, this is a subjective opinion.

But remember, there are and were 2d games that seemed 16-bit(ty) released on the PSX, and some of the early 3d releases on the PSX were laughable compared to some of the later and last releases. Programmers learn a lot about the architecture of a system over time, and can squeeze every last drop of performance out of it.

My point is that it's not really fair to automatically group a system to a 'bit' rating, even subjectively, based on the appearance of the games. Were it so, there would definitely be two separate groups of 8-bit systems (with the NES and SMS being in a league of their own compared to the likes of the Atari 2600)

Anyhow cheers. :)

[Wavelflack]

This reminds me of the 17-bit "Platypus". Anyone remember that?

[Ze_ro]

Oh man, this thread is positively painful... it's hard to believe so much ignorance can be crammed into such a small space. I'm not even going to try to make any corrections except to say one thing:

NUMBERS OF BITS ARE COMPLETELY MEANINGLESS

So stop saying things like "turbocharged 16 bit", because that doesn't mean anything at all. You're not even comparing the actual systems here, you're comparing the games. So what if Dragon and NBA Jam don't look like something on the Playstation? So what if Checkered Flag could be done on a Genesis or SNES using extra hardware? None of it really matters at all. The Jaguar was built with high-end 2D gaming in mind because that's the direction the industry was headed in at the time.

If for some unimaginable reason you really have to rate the power of machines and divide them into classes (I can't imagine any point in doing this, yet for some reason this seems important to Anthony1), then just create a mid-way class between what you would call 16-bit and 32-bit generations... like so:

16-bit: Genesis, TurboGrafx-16, SNES, etc

Early 32-bit: Jaguar, 3DO, CD-i, CD32, etc

Late 32-bit: Playstation, Saturn, N64, etc

I don't know why I'm even bothering posting to such a worthless thread in the first place. Here's hoping for a lock before things get much worse.

--Zero

[Gregory DG]

Were it so, there would definitely be two separate groups of 8-bit systems (with the NES and SMS being in a league of their own compared to the likes of the Atari 2600)
No way. The 2600 is a 4-bit system. You can tell by the graphics! LOL ;)

[Graham Mitchell]

Actually, this thread is good for something: it's really making me appreciate the Jaguar. Now I want one. I wanted nothing to do with it when it was released, but there really were some gems, weren't there?

[ghostangelofcky]

some games look cool ie Doom, AVP but yeah some of the others are just eww. LOL

[goatdan]

Actually, this thread is good for something: it's really making me appreciate the Jaguar. Now I want one. I wanted nothing to do with it when it was released, but there really were some gems, weren't there?

Yeah. Depending on what you're looking for, a surprising number of gems really. Tempest 2000 for the Jaguar is the best game ever in my opinion, and while the other versions are okay, they changed a bit of the gameplay and it doesn't live up. T2K was hugely addictive on the Jaguar and I beat it in regular and hard modes. T2K on the Saturn and PC I never cared to play through. Tempest X3 on the PSX is pretty good, although some of the changes were very odd.. and not for the better.

Other than that, I'd give the Jaguar 20 games that I think are excellent for it.

[YoshiM]

@ze_ro: I'm not sure why you seem to be getting your undies in a bunch over this thread. In a historical sense "bits" DOES matter, as it clearly defines not only an era of gaming (as defined by advertising) but as gives a general idea of (if a person had played games from that time frame) the overall quality, ability and limitations of the systems of that era. Back in the day it was also a measuring stick to determine if a multiplatform-released game was actually better (and thus worth it to own the more powerful hardware) than it's "x-bit cousin". I remember a lot of game reviews where the author wondered why the game was released on a 3DO/32X/Jaguar because it's no different than what was on the less expensive "smaller bit" systems.

Looking at the original post it seems he wasn't saying that the system really wasn't 64 bit but that the majority of the product released on the Jaguar didn't seem to be any better than what was out on the "classified as" 16-bit hardware and that anything advanced the Jaguar could do (like 3D polygons and such) the "classified as" 16-bit systems could do just as well with a little help (SuperFX chip and whatnot). So this thread really wasn't intended to be a "bit war" but more of a comparison using clearly defined and recognizable descriptions, in this case "16-bit" (which lumps together SNES, Genesis and TG-16) vs "Jaguar". It just gets real easy to spin off into a "bit war" where we start comparing processors.

Anyway, if you knew nothing "good" would come of this thread, why bother reading it or even responding?

[Big Papa Husker]

You'll also be hard pressed to find someone that doesnt think tetris is blocky :P

LOL LOL LOL LOL

[Kid Ice]

I don't know why I'm even bothering posting to such a worthless thread in the first place. Here's hoping for a lock before things get much worse.

--Zero

I don't agree with the premise of the thread, which I've made clear enough in my two previous posts, but why would the thread be locked? You'd think the subject could at least be open for discussion. It seems like poeple are personally offended by the entire concept of talking about systems in terms of "bits". In my mind this is just a convenient way to classify systems. Yes, TECHNICAL GENIUSES, I realize there is a lot more to a system's technical specifications than just bits. Relax.

[bargora]

i dont think teh xbox is a 32-bit system 'cos teh graf1xx roxxorz 2 hard. it's more liek a 256-bit system becuz it's twice as better than teh PS2, which is only 128-bit. it's also 16 times as gooder than the SNES, which is a 16-bit system.

Do teh maht!