Games stores not offering warrenties on the PSP?

[njiska]

I was in a local Microplay store the other day and during my usual long chat with the staff i discovered that they were considering not offering a warrenty on the PSP when it became available due to Sony's piss poor track record and due to the problems being experienced in Japan with the PSP having dead pixels and sticky buttons. Basically this means once you've bought it you can't bring it back for an exchange, you have to deal straight with Sony, no returns and no extended warrenties.

Anyone else have a game store near then that's going to do this?? And do you think that they should?? I for one don't trust Sony when it comes to hardware and i'm probably going to wait at least 6 months to a year before i get a PSP, just to see how common the problems are state-side. Even though it kills me because i wanna play MGA.

[EnemyZero]

i noticed a few internet places arent offering refunds or anything, i was looking at NCSX last night and they have a lengthy disclaimer saying that people been finding 4-5 dead pixels on average, and there will be no refunds because of this, and they say something about the square button, and the :L and R triggers and that there really rickety...

[Berty]

Don't they already come with a one year factory warranty anyway?

[njiska]

Some sites, say they've confirmed 1 year and other say they've confirmed 90-day. I'm actually hoping it'll be one year, and from the looks of things it probably will. But i think most of you know that even a year with a Sony PS2 wasn't enough. The bigger is issue the stores that aren't going to take exchanges or returns or offer extended like some people might actually want. Dealing with Sony directly can be a bit of a bitch. I've never had good luck.

[WanganRunner]

Yeah, but it's a pain to deal with that. You have to mail it in, wait forever, it's a lot easier to just take it back to EB and get another one.

[lurpak]

in the UK we have consumer rights laws, whcih mean that a retailer cannot dictate any warranty period below satutory 1 year, our rights include

refund (with reciept) on faulty goods within 28 days
exchange with/without reciept within 28 days
retailer to deal with manufacturer on your behalf 1 year or to repair/'exchange themselves

and in the UK, you are entitled to a "reasonable period of product life"

which means even if sony say its a 1 year guarantee, you could reasonably expect 3-7 years use of this product, of which they are bound to repair/replace. (not many people know or use this law as manufacturers tend not to advertise it..)

im supprised if you dont have similar in the US

[njiska]

in the UK we have consumer rights laws, whcih mean that a retailer cannot dictate any warranty period below satutory 1 year

I use to have rights like that when i lived out on the east coast of Canada. But now sadly i have none (Damn Ontario).

Props to lurpak for posting that. Most people don't know their rights, but you just proved way it's good to know them.

[Mayhem]

The whole European law thing should be interesting when the PSP comes here. However I suspect that Sony will argue that don't quantify any PSPs being faulty if they exhibit:

1) Dodgy shoulder buttons
2) Sticky square button
3) Less than 5 dead pixels within one square inch of screen

Because they haven't in Japan and imagine it may well be the same in the US.

[Xantan the Foul]

Yet another reason I think I'll wait for a hopeful redesign on the PSP (or for an adapter to play the games on my TV).

[esquire]

i noticed a few internet places arent offering refunds or anything, i was looking at NCSX last night and they have a lengthy disclaimer saying that people been finding 4-5 dead pixels on average, and there will be no refunds because of this, and they say something about the square button, and the :L and R triggers and that there really rickety...

...and people said the DS was rushed. If all these problems are true, why isn't Sony fixing them before the system is released in North America?

I remember when IBM ran into trouble with their 45 GB GXP hard drives a few years back. Mass problems with sectors getting corrupted and people losing data. A class action resulted. If Sony doesn't address the alleged problems with the PSP, I seriously think some consumer law attorney will be salivating to bring a class action suit against Sony.

[Jive3D]

This is absolutely RETARDED.

I have far too many games to play and I can EASILY wait for these problems to be fixed with the PSP. I can not stand dead pixels, loos buttons or any of that crap. This system is going to cost us about $300 and it should be flawless out of the box. It's depressing to see a japanese company lost it's standards (even though these standards have been lost for a few years now in Sony's case).

I want a PSP, but I'm modt definately waiting on this one and I'll enjoy my online DS play - when they fucking get around to giving it to us!!

[njiska]

The dead Pixel problem is one thing. It's not something Sony can due much about (aside from using better parts) but the sticky button really bugs the hell out of me.

The button sticking problem however, even though it's a smal problem pisses me off simply because of the arrogance of Sony.

From Gamespot:
Kutaragi acknowledged that the button is less responsive than the others, in part because it's so close to the PSP's 480x272 screen. Because there isn't enough room to put the square button's detection switch directly underneath, it's off to the right, making it less responsive--and sometimes causing it to stick.

Here's the part that really pisses me off. Just listen to the arrogance.

From Gamespot:
Kutaragi was unapologetic about the issue: "This is the design that we came up with. There may be people that complain about its usability, but that's something which users and game software developers will have to adapt to. I didn't want the PSP's LCD screen to become any smaller than this, nor did I want its machine body to become any larger.

"The button's location is [architectured] on purpose," Kutaragi added. "It's according to specifications. This is something that we've created, and this is our specification. There was a clear purpose to it, and it wasn't a mistake."

Offering additional testimony praising the handheld, Kutaragi said, "I believe we made the most beautiful thing in the world. Nobody would criticize a renowned architect's blueprint that the position of a gate is wrong. It's the same as that."

I say fuck adapting, just fix it. We the gamers of this world are the reason there is an industry at all. You're supposed to respect us, not insult us and ignore us. Listen to what we want and you'll make a better system. But Sony doesn't so we're stuck with all these problems and no instore support in most of the world. And that's why Sony won't fix these problems.

Oh and if you're reknowned for making this that break you damn well deserve to be critized over something like this.

[briguy578]

Here's the part that really pisses me off. Just listen to the arrogance.

From Gamespot:
Kutaragi was unapologetic about the issue: "This is the design that we came up with. There may be people that complain about its usability, but that's something which users and game software developers will have to adapt to. I didn't want the PSP's LCD screen to become any smaller than this, nor did I want its machine body to become any larger.

"The button's location is [architectured] on purpose," Kutaragi added. "It's according to specifications. This is something that we've created, and this is our specification. There was a clear purpose to it, and it wasn't a mistake."

Offering additional testimony praising the handheld, Kutaragi said, "I believe we made the most beautiful thing in the world. Nobody would criticize a renowned architect's blueprint that the position of a gate is wrong. It's the same as that."

I say fuck adapting, just fix it. We the gamers of this world are the reason there is an industry at all. You're supposed to respect us, not insult us and ignore us. Listen to what we want and you'll make a better system. But Sony doesn't so we're stuck with all these problems and no instore support in most of the world. And that's why Sony won't fix these problems.

Oh and if you're reknowned for making this that break you damn well deserve to be critized over something like this.


Its arrogance like this that will cost Sony thier top spot in the next console generation. Sony's reached that point where they feel they are doing us a favor by giving us something new. I think the first batch will sell out really quicky, but demand will drop once people realize all the shitty design problems these have, and Sony's insistance that they are "features" will start turning people away.

Sony is digging its own grave in the Portable market, and the DS is putting on its dancing shoes.

[chadtower]

Uh, no. That's their design. You either approve or disapprove with your dollars. That's how LIFE is. If you don't like the design and are unhappy with the product JUST DON'T BUY IT. They can design it however they want. That's not arrogance, that's presenting a design and saying buy it or do not.

Now, the dead pixels issue, you could absolutely lay at their feet. That's not a design issue, it's a crappy part AND crappy QA. That is Sony's fault.

[goatdan]

Uh, no. That's their design. You either approve or disapprove with your dollars. That's how LIFE is. If you don't like the design and are unhappy with the product JUST DON'T BUY IT. They can design it however they want. That's not arrogance, that's presenting a design and saying buy it or do not.

Yes, that is a design thing but Sony's arrogance on the design is what has been turning so many people off. As a company, you don't tell early adopters (who are also probably hardcore gamers) that the system design problems are simply "features" and they can't complain. That's just stupid.


Now, the dead pixels issue, you could absolutely lay at their feet. That's not a design issue, it's a crappy part AND crappy QA. That is Sony's fault.

The dead pixel issue is strange to me, seeing as how my first Sony monitor I was able to return with one dead pixel and get a new one immediately. I definitely wouldn't accept a PSP with dead pixels.

That having been said, I fully expect dead pixels in LCD monitors. We've beaten this topic to death before, but the bottom line is that LCD technology is not perfect, and industry-wide there are problems with dead pixels... When the DS came out, all of the anti-Nintendo people were claiming that the DS had crappy screens because some had dead pixels. Now that the PSP is coming out, all the Sony-haters are getting their revenge and pointing to the fact that the PSP has the same problem.

It's a matter of making a part that can do what the screens can do for the price. They won't be perfect. And quite honestly, the bottom line comes down to if people care and what the return policy is. If Sony accepts them all back at stores, then they are doing the same as Nintendo. We'll just have to wait and see.

[Mayhem]

When the DS came out, all of the anti-Nintendo people were claiming that the DS had crappy screens because some had dead pixels. Now that the PSP is coming out, all the Sony-haters are getting their revenge and pointing to the fact that the PSP has the same problem.

Difference is, Nintendo have been accepting units back as faulty even if the screen only has 1 dead pixel; Sony will not be doing this. And I don't believe shops will either.

[njiska]

Uh, no. That's their design. You either approve or disapprove with your dollars. That's how LIFE is. If you don't like the design and are unhappy with the product JUST DON'T BUY IT. They can design it however they want. That's not arrogance, that's presenting a design and saying buy it or do not.

Do you know what the first rule of business is? The customer is always right. If people complain about the design you fucked up. You're right that they can design it however they want, but if they want to sell it then it should please the customers. If you don't please the customers then you deserve to fail.

The sad fact is that the PSP will be bought, not because of quality, not because of the launch lineup, but because of the name. Sony is actually banking on the PS2 installed base ordering PSPs. They're counting on it and they'll probably make the most money from the poor misguided fools who go around saying, "Yeah PS2 Rules." Now just to be clear that's not a shot at Sony fans, but a shot a people who are pro-sony (regardless of the crap parts they build their systems with), and anti-everyone else.

Because Sony thinks they'll sell on the name alone they aren't as preassured to provide the customer with the best experience. It's why you don't want any one business to have a monopoly. The end user always suffers.

The comments made by Mr. Kutaragi represent Sony and they show that the company does not think about the customer. And seriously, would it have ruined the machine if it was 0.5 mm wider?? No. My guess is that they only discovered the problem late in design and decided to ignore it.

[Jumpman Jr.]

I overheard a clerk at EB today saying that they were offering a warrenty. Maybe its just Canada though.
just as well.. i'll stick with my DS

Edit.. I just realized the origioanl poster is from Ottawa.. like me... which Microplay are you talking about? Bank?... and also.. are you going to the Ottawa meet on Saturday?

[goatdan]

When the DS came out, all of the anti-Nintendo people were claiming that the DS had crappy screens because some had dead pixels. Now that the PSP is coming out, all the Sony-haters are getting their revenge and pointing to the fact that the PSP has the same problem.

Difference is, Nintendo have been accepting units back as faulty even if the screen only has 1 dead pixel; Sony will not be doing this. And I don't believe shops will either.

Do we know this for sure? Again, my monitor is a Sony monitor and when I bought it, it had one dead, green pixel on the lower right hand side of the monitor. I took it to Circuit City, told them what the problem was and immediately they replaced it. Do we know for a fact that stores won't be accepting them?

Again, it all comes down to how it is handled. If stores don't accept them, that will suck for those people who do get and are bothered by dead pixels.

[chadtower]

Do you know what the first rule of business is? The customer is always right. If people complain about the design you fucked up. You're right that they can design it however they want, but if they want to sell it then it should please the customers. If you don't please the customers then you deserve to fail.


No, actually, when it comes to technology, that is far from the first rule. When you're making a hardware device certain tradeoffs have to be made. If they made that button the way you want it, others would have complained about the size increase or the smaller screen. You cannot satisfy everyone in every way. It cannot be done. You have a design issue you don't like. So don't buy it. That's all you have to do. Don't buy it.

[Mayhem]

Do we know this for sure? Again, my monitor is a Sony monitor and when I bought it, it had one dead, green pixel on the lower right hand side of the monitor. I took it to Circuit City, told them what the problem was and immediately they replaced it. Do we know for a fact that stores won't be accepting them?

No, not for sure. But think about it like this. If Sony are not taking back units with dead pixels unless they have a certain failure rate, then what will shops do about it? After all, they could replace a unit that has a failure rate outside of Sony's policy, but what do they then do with the unit itself they've taken back? They can't send it off to Sony to fix because Sony won't take it, just like if the store was an individual customer.

No place you could order from in Japan was taking them back for dead pixels, most likely because of this (and chronic shortage of stock). All of them had a pre-order condition that you accept the unit "as is" and could not return it unless it did actually fail to work full stop.

[esquire]

Do you know what the first rule of business is? The customer is always right. If people complain about the design you fucked up. You're right that they can design it however they want, but if they want to sell it then it should please the customers. If you don't please the customers then you deserve to fail.


No, actually, when it comes to technology, that is far from the first rule. When you're making a hardware device certain tradeoffs have to be made. If they made that button the way you want it, others would have complained about the size increase or the smaller screen. You cannot satisfy everyone in every way. It cannot be done. You have a design issue you don't like. So don't buy it. That's all you have to do. Don't buy it.

Actually, you have another choice. If you buy it and Sony won't replace it or fix it, you as a consumer are afforded rights under state and federal laws. Hence my post earlier about a possible consumer class action against Sony if they take this stance. If the product is not "merchantable" or "fit for a particular purpose" (i.e. legalese for it doesn't do what it is suppose to do), then the consumer has every right to return it or demand it to be replaced or return it for full value.

If Sony will not change their position with respect to these issues, you can be assured that they will be sued. We've seen this time and again with other consumer electronics companies (IBM, Kenwood, etc.) and retailers (Gamestop/Funcoland, EB). What it all comes down to is this - Sony figures it will cost them X amount dollars in repairs, redesign, marketing, loss sales/profits, etc. if the yhave to recall the PSP or redesign it, and it will cost them Y amount of money to defend against possible lawsuits brought against them for violation of state and federal consumer laws. If X > Y, of course they will say "deal with it" and not fix the problems. The same thing happens with other manufacturers such as with the auto industry. They weigh the cost of a recall versus the cost to defend against possible lawsuits.

[kainemaxwell]

I'm sure Sony's PR reps have been spinning this in light of the recent PSP problems. Gotta love Sony's response when more people bitch and want their cash back and can't or gotta deal with Sony's idioticy.

[chadtower]

Actually, you have another choice. If you buy it and Sony won't replace it or fix it, you as a consumer are afforded rights under state and federal laws. Hence my post earlier about a possible consumer class action against Sony if they take this stance. If the product is not "merchantable" or "fit for a particular purpose" (i.e. legalese for it doesn't do what it is suppose to do), then the consumer has every right to return it or demand it to be replaced or return it for full value.

"not merchantable" "not fit for a particular purpose"

How exactly does a sticky button, that works but isn't up to your liking, make a system "not fit for a particular purpose"? If the system makes it out of QA, and works, and continues to work, but isn't as responsive as YOU would like, you're going to sue? Good luck.

[jonjandran]

"not merchantable" "not fit for a particular purpose"

How exactly does a sticky button, that works but isn't up to your liking, make a system "not fit for a particular purpose"? If the system makes it out of QA, and works, and continues to work, but isn't as responsive as YOU would like, you're going to sue? Good luck.

Do you even read what you write ?

A non-responsive button or a button that doesn't work, and is a design flaw is "not fit for a particular purpose". It isn't fit for playing games as THE DEVICE WAS INTENDED TO DO. :roll:

[chadtower]

No, it's fit for the purpose, it's just bad at it. If every crappy product that works but works poorly resulted in a lawsuit you would have no cars, computers, tvs, clothes, food, hell you'd be naked, cold, and shivering in a cave.

[njiska]

No, it's fit for the purpose, it's just bad at it. If every crappy product that works but works poorly resulted in a lawsuit you would have no cars, computers, tvs, clothes, food, hell you'd be naked, cold, and shivering in a cave.

Newsflash chad, people do often sue over ever product thats crappy and in the states they often win. Car companies are always being sued for one thing or another, and stores and companies that violate customer rights laws also get sued. You're not suppose to be able to get away with short-changing the customer. Think about it, if you bought a car tthat, by design, had an accelerator that stuck, you'd probably be pissed and want a replacement now wouldn't you?? Or even better, since Square is often brake, how 'bout a car with sticky brakes?? Didn't think so.

And that's really what the problem is. A button is as important to a game system as a pedal is to a car. If you've got sticky pedals and your only option is to send it back to the factory (except in places with good customer rights laws like lurpak and esquire mentioned) wouldn't you be pissed?? I'd like to think so.

[chadtower]

Okay, now that you're going so far as to compare a handheld gaming system's button to a potentially fatal automobile flaw, I'm going to bow out. We just disagree. I do not consider a sticky button potentially fatal. I also don't get all bent out of shape when a manufactuer puts out a poor product. I just don't buy the product. Why someone would knowingly buy a crappy product, and then sue because it's crappy, is beyond me.

[goatdan]

No, not for sure. But think about it like this. If Sony are not taking back units with dead pixels unless they have a certain failure rate, then what will shops do about it? After all, they could replace a unit that has a failure rate outside of Sony's policy, but what do they then do with the unit itself they've taken back? They can't send it off to Sony to fix because Sony won't take it, just like if the store was an individual customer.

If a store accepts a return, Sony pretty much also will need to accept it from them. If Best Buy has 1000 returns for instance that they replace, and Sony refuses to take the stock back of 1000 systems, Best Buy could stop carrying Sony products or the PSP. Either would greatly harm the PSP.

Large companies have a much bigger bargaining chip with companies, and they also know that they need to make the customer feel happy. "We can't take that back because Sony says so" probably won't cut it at a consumer driven store.


No place you could order from in Japan was taking them back for dead pixels, most likely because of this (and chronic shortage of stock). All of them had a pre-order condition that you accept the unit "as is" and could not return it unless it did actually fail to work full stop.

From running an internet business of my own, I would guess that this has more to do with the high cost of shipping than with an actual Sony return policy. If you're buying something from a vendor, it costs them a certain price to ship it. If it is defective, it costs them again to accept the unit back, replace it and send it again. We have looked at possibly not selling certain systems that tend to brake in transit to people (*cough*Sega CD*cough*) because shipping it two additional times is a cost to us of an additional $25.00. When you aren't making much to start with, that's crazy.

Sony won't pay shipping costs for customers, only to replace the systems.


How exactly does a sticky button, that works but isn't up to your liking, make a system "not fit for a particular purpose"? If the system makes it out of QA, and works, and continues to work, but isn't as responsive as YOU would like, you're going to sue? Good luck.

Do you have a system already? If a button sticks in the down position, that means that it doesn't function properly. I had a keyboard in the past that had a stuck space bar. Sure, it only stuck every three or four times that I hit it, but it still meant that I couldn't type properly because everysooftenitlookedlikethis.

That could render the system not fit for a particular purpose, and what does QA have to do with anything? They don't sit down and play each system for an hour -- the costs would be astronomical to do that. They are probably test one system in every batch of 500 right now, so you still have a chance of 499 failing to work properly.

And I really don't get why you're defending Sony so much on this topic. People are stating that there is a design problem with the system -- that Sony acknowledged -- and that it is goofy that Sony isn't looking at fixing it and instead making it sound like it is the consumer's fault. I don't think that anyone is arguing that trade-offs need to be made with anything, but to state that people can't complain about a button that doesn't properly function because you agree with Sony that it is their problem just sounds odd.

I'd like the PSP to be the best system it can be. It isn't going to be that if every improvement that the customers want is met with a "it's perfect." from Sony. Hell, Microsoft admitted the error of their ways with their hamburger controllers and now exclusively sell the S.

[goatdan]

No, it's fit for the purpose, it's just bad at it. If every crappy product that works but works poorly resulted in a lawsuit you would have no cars, computers, tvs, clothes, food, hell you'd be naked, cold, and shivering in a cave.

So wait now...

Every product is crappy? I have been extremely happy with my car, with my TV, with (most) of my food, my (Sony) monitor and VCR, my computer and so on.

Recently, Dell recalled Maxtor drives from all of their machines that weren't working properly. At my job alone, this resulted in a need to replace 601 hard drives. Out of those drives that we replaced, only a few had actually lost data. But the failure for the device to do its job was high enough that Dell / Maxtor issued a recall. If they hadn't, and it was exposed that Dell / Maxtor knew about the problem and did nothing, a class action lawsuit could have happened.

Yes, they don't all fail. And yes, some people won't care if they get one and the X button doesn't function properly, but claiming that there is never a time that consumers can get mad about something like this is a strange stance.

[Mayhem]

From running an internet business of my own, I would guess that this has more to do with the high cost of shipping than with an actual Sony return policy.

Not entirely. It also applied to everyone in Japan buying it from a shop, not just online sales. I foresee people possibly knackering their PSPs deliberately if it has a fault but can't currently be returned under the existing policy...

It didn't stop it from sellling out in under 12 hours of course.

Anyone who did order online and had a truly defective unit (ie. the battery was faulty, the analog stick had trouble reading up; two cases I have heard of) was allowed to return it, and many places (such as PlayAsia) were also paying the shipping costs to and from Hong Kong.

[njiska]

Okay, now that you're going so far as to compare a handheld gaming system's button to a potentially fatal automobile flaw, I'm going to bow out. We just disagree. I do not consider a sticky button potentially fatal. I also don't get all bent out of shape when a manufactuer puts out a poor product. I just don't buy the product. Why someone would knowingly buy a crappy product, and then sue because it's crappy, is beyond me.

I agree let's end this little dispute between us. It's all just personal opinion. I do think it's a big flaw because i've had bad controllers in the past with sticky buttons and it makes games almost un-playable most of the time. I don't buy the product if they're bad either, but i don't want to see the people who do buy them getting the shaft. I'd like to see that people are able to get something that works, or get an easy replacement if it doesn't, that's all. Personally i don't like the idea of sueing over something, but Sony's refusal to even acknowledge that it's an issue does bothers me deeply. It's like the old adage "It's not a bug it's a feature." Sony knows it a problem but doesn't consider it important enough to deal with. That's what truly bothers me.