MAME Trademark in Jeopardy

[Jorpho]

http://tarr.uspto.gov/servlet/tarr?regser=serial&entry=76627578

Oh dear. That's the CEO of Ultracade, by the way.

(Reported at http://www.zophar.net .)

[Mr.FoodMonster]

Lets hear it for blatant theft!


::crickets::

[Graham Mitchell]

On what grounds is he suing Mame? Was Ultracade around before Mame? Or is he just suing them because mame gives the cow away for free?

[Dimitri]

On what grounds is he suing Mame? Was Ultracade around before Mame? Or is he just suing them because mame gives the cow away for free?

He's not suing...yet. He's applying for a patent on the name and logo design, both of which were around for at least four years before he started his company. Right now he's going around getting "MAME cabinet" auctions removed from eBay, claiming "IP infringement" even though the trademark hasn't gone through yet.

Here's a few more discussions about it:
BYOAC thread (http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php/topic,32339.0.html)
MAME World thread (http://www.mameworld.info/ubbthreads/showthreaded.php?Cat=&Number=25153&page=0&view=expanded&sb=5&o=&fpart=1&vc=1)
MAME.net thread (http://www.mame.net/cgi-bin/wwwthreads/showpost.pl?Board=mamegeneral&Number=168487&page=0&view=expanded&mode=threaded&sb=7#Post168487)

Since the news of this is spreading so rapidly (it's already been Slashdotted), there's likely no way that it'll go through, if people contact the attourney and the trademark office.

[poloplayr]

So, basically he wants to "steal" the logo for Ultrarcade? I hope not a soul will buy anything from them and that he ends up broke and miserable. Some nerve!

[Kid Ice]

Here is the explanation from the CEO of Ultracade:

http://games.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=140128&threshold=1&commentsort=0&tid=203&tid=17&tid=10&mode=thread&cid=11734594

From a business and legal standpoint, I am mostly in agreement with his reasoning. With classic gaming increasingly gathering steam in the mass market, expect more of this. When MAME first came out it was a hobbyist thing and no one really cared. Now there is money to be made.

[Jorpho]

Fair enough... But what is there to stop someone from building a cabinet that runs RAINE instead of MAME, or simply a rebranded program titled "EALOAM" (Emulates a Lot of Arcade Machines)? Or is he trying to patent the concept of a multiple arcade machine emulator in general (which might well mean that some of Namco's cabinets would be in violation)? I can't see this ending well.

[Flack]

I agree with the guy's problem and his plight, I just don't agree with the actions taken to fight the problem. The guy's issue is, he's trying to compete with his legal product (Ultimarc) against people illegally selling MAME cabinets. I agree with that, that's a problem. I just don't know that copyrighting someone else's logo and such is the right way to fight that fight.

I agree with you Jorpho, I think this action just leads to people changing their MAME logos and calling those cabinets something else to avoid eBay cancellations.

[lurpak]

"and have invested millions of dollars creating a
market for retro games"

why thank you sir, I as many others would have had no intrest if it wasnt for your company...(which I had never heard of before 10 minutes ago).

so he's bought the licences to games that are in reality only viable in the public domain and not commercial market.

he claims that its people benefiting from others hard work.. that he's bought the rights too... hello ?

what I find hard to beleive is that no-one had trademarked the "MAME" name before.

for "Software Hardware Arcade Machine Emulator".. :(



just posed this question on that forum


Because the MAME product has been a "public domain" item previously, Software rights owners such as yourself and others, who have legitimate claim to the ROMS that are being unlawfully distributed, frequently supplied with these units, have had no principle figure head to sue for breach of copyright.

Does that mean since you are now atempting to take ownership of the MAME trademark you will be the figure head for wich copyright owners can now sue ?
since it will be your tradename product expiditing this distribution.

does this sound reasonable ?

[Kid Ice]

"and have invested millions of dollars creating a
market for retro games"

why thank you sir, I as many others would have had no intrest if it wasnt for your company...(which I had never heard of before 10 minutes ago).

so he's bought the licences to games that are in reality only viable in the public domain and not commercial market.

he claims that its people benefiting from others hard work.. that he's bought the rights too... hello ?

what I find hard to beleive is that no-one had trademarked the "MAME" name before.

for "Software Hardware Arcade Machine Emulator".. :(



just posed this question on that forum


Because the MAME product has been a "public domain" item previously, Software rights owners such as yourself and others, who have legitimate claim to the ROMS that are being unlawfully distributed, frequently supplied with these units, have had no principle figure head to sue for breach of copyright.

Does that mean since you are now atempting to take ownership of the MAME trademark you will be the figure head for wich copyright owners can now sue ?
since it will be your tradename product expiditing this distribution.

does this sound reasonable ?

To say the licenses he bought aren't commercially viable is inaccurate. I agree that a number of them are old arcade licenses that are only of interest to hobbyists, but there are others that are still commercially available through compilations (and they must be selling because Namco, Capcom, Atari, etc. keep churning them out).

To answer your question about the question you posted, no it doesn't sound reasonable. He has already purchased the rights to the games in the Ultracade cabinets. Even if he takes complete ownership of the MAME name (not likely IMO) I'm not sure why any copyright owners would sue him...there's nothing illegal about the emulator itself.

[SoulBlazer]

Once again, Flack said very well what I was going to say. :)

My question is, why did'nt the main people behind MAME copyright the trademark and name back when they first STARTED? Could'nt they see this happening at some point? Sure, MAME is legal but most of the ROM's used on it (and I admit I myself play) are not. I'd cover my ass in a situation like this.

[stargate]

he's a big dick who is only in it for one thing.... $$$$$$$$

whereas the people behind MAME are not.

[Kid Ice]

he's a big dick who is only in it for one thing.... $$$$$$$$

whereas the people behind MAME are not.

Seems a lot of people are "dicks" according to you.

This is someone who happens to be in the BUSINESS of making the classic games we all enjoy publically available.

The problem with the gaming community is that too many of us are accustomed to getting something for nothing.

[LocalH]

First of all, IANAL just to cover my ass.

Foley is breaking the law. How?

He is trying to illegally trademark MAME using a mark that is copyrighted by someone else, and other than the copyrighted logo, this situation has nothing to do with copyright or patent law. Regardless of his ulterior motive, he is going about it the wrong way, and basically committing the same acts that he claims he wishes to prevent (that is, copyright infringement).

Plus, in the process of filing for a trademark you must declare, under penalty of perjury, that you are the lawful owner of the intended mark. Which means he can go to jail over this, should the MAME team push back hard enough.

This has nothing to do with preventing people from selling MAME cabinets with a full ROM collection preloaded. He is already trying to take action against people selling marquees that incorporate the MAME logo. He is also trying to take action against people who legally sell cabinets with ROMs acquired from StarROMs (which can be done if the ROMs are purchased in the customer's name).

This guy is a dick. He's trying to monopolize the custom arcade cabinet market, under the auspices of trying to fight against illegal resellers. I hope this guy gets crushed.

[Phosphor Dot Fossils]

He is trying to illegally trademark MAME using a mark that is copyrighted by someone else, and other than the copyrighted logo, this situation has nothing to do with copyright or patent law. Regardless of his ulterior motive, he is going about it the wrong way, and basically committing the same acts that he claims he wishes to prevent (that is, copyright infringement).
BINGO.

And you'd be surprised how many corporate entites don't do this, or willfully step right in the middle of the little guy's back anyway because they figure he won't fight back, or can't afford to.

[Jorpho]

As long as people sell "home-made" MAME machines w/o any illegal ROMS on them, they're not doing anything wrong, and by going after sellers who state in their auction that no illegal ROMS are included, he's simply assuming every seller is guilty of including them (and we all know how Ebay doesn't bother to verify such matter...).

I suspect he's not too far off the mark when he says that a lot of people do include them or instructions on how to get them.


Let him go after all the romz sites if he's so concerned about it.

Shutting down an eBay auction and shutting down a Chinese website are two entirely different matters.


Besides, he even admits you can't run 99% of the games out there on Ultracade legally either, so who's going to spend 4x as much for one of his "legal" machines?

Huh? I thought he said that you can in fact run the Capcom, Midway, Tatio, etc. games on Ultracade legally because he can actually sell the licenses legally. (It's not like people are buying MAME cabs to satisfy their cravings for pornographic Mahjongg games; the ones Ultracade has licensed are probably the ones that people are most interested in playing.)

[badinsults]

Copyright != Trademark


I completely understand this guy's reasoning, and I fully support what he is doing. If MAME is not actively protecting its trademark, this guy can take it, especially if it is hurting his bottom line, he should be able to protect it. Even the authors of emulators like zsnes go after auctions where people try selling the emulator illegally. It sounds like this guy paid for a liscence to use MAME, so he wants to protect his investment.

[LocalH]

None of that matters. He's doing it in the wrong way. He is violating the law and claiming to do it in order to keep other people from violating the law. That would likely not be a defense in front of a judge.

Had he created his own MAME logo, and used that, then he'd probably have a lot easier time getting the trademark (although he's still lying when it comes to his declaration of ownership, which can result in fines or imprisonment). As it stands now, he's using someone else's copyrighted logo and claiming it to be his own mark. Not only that, but he has told eBay that he does indeed have the mark, and used that to shut down legal auctions, when in reality the mark is pending and has not been granted yet. This means that, hypothetically, if the MAME dev team (the true rights holders) chose to sell MAME on eBay, that he could have their auction shut down.

I can support his stated reasons behind what he's doing, but actions speak louder than words, and since he's going after people who are not distributing illegal ROMs with their cabinets, I conclude that his stated reasons are just a smokescreen for his real motive, which I believe is merely wiping out competition in the market of multi-game cabinets. The person selling cabinets with legal StarROMs even has explicit approval from StarROMs to do so, provided that the ROMs are licensed in the name of the buyer, yet his auction was cancelled.

The MAME dev team does not support his chosen method of tackling illegal distribution of ROMs, so it stands to reason that he is doing the wrong thing, both legally and morally.

[Pente]

http://www.ultracade.com/mame.htm

Heh he's fulla shit. And of course if you've been following this the past few days, you'd see how the guy has 100% backpedaled after being exposed.

So.. the best way to prevent copyright theft (already illegal ) is to trademark "MAME'? Hmmmm in that case..... I will patent the concept of emulation. Fucking cunt deserves a kicking :roll: Like the guy who tried to take the Linux name...

You can wipe multigames off ebay.. big fn' deal. He can put his finger in that dyke all he wants but it won't stop the flood of those crappy multicabs (the bane of any serious arcade collector). Anyway his biggest dumb move is claiming ownership and taking legal action on it when he's not been awarded anything. Remember Intel trying to trademark numbers? ;-) or the names of towns/cities in CA. That was my favorite.. I could just see the city of Modesto receiving a letter from Intel attorneys. "You must now use the correct wording of 'the city of modesto (tm) Intel 1998." LOL


Had he created his own MAME logo

The sad thing is I know the people who created and painted that. They have since dropped off the online scene though. Who knows where they are..

[Push Upstairs]

So he's not going to get the trademark for MAME?

[koltz]

He has to prove ownership of the copyrights before his is granted them and I believe that there is proof from way back on who designed the logo and the original creator of the MAME program. Now what he should be doing (and eBay) is finding these systems that have the ROMs bundled. I have seen a ton of emulation disks for sale on eBay which I thought was illegal. If he wants to fight emulation, he should be getting the companies behind him to do it. I highly doubt he will be awarded the copyrights on MAME and honestly I believe them trying to do this will hurt his company even more.

Corey

[calthaer]

So where can we donate to cover the real MAME creators' legal fees?

[stargate]

His intentions are questionable at best. how exactly will owning the MAME name/logo stop piracy? why does he feel he is entitled to own the MAME name/ logo when he had NOTHING to do with its creation? How will any of this stop the sale of emulator cabinets on ebay?

The guy is full of sh!t, period. none of his reasoning makes sense. it is pretty clear what he is up to. he is going after MAME because MAME is the biggest competition to his company, and its free to boot. this is his first step. if he gains ownership of the MAME name he will file a cease and desist against the true MAME owners. further litigation will follow, guaranteed. he will spearhead the fight against any type of emulation because it cuts into his profits.

The creators of MAME and other emulators will likely fold up shop and disappear. They do not have the time nor resources to fight a lengthy legal battle.

And the only option that will be left in the end is a $4,000.00 Ultracade machine (that will be renamed MAME because he owns the rights) which will come with the games that he decides are popular/ lucrative to own the rights to. Should you want to play any rare or obscure games, well tough sh!t.

So I stand by my initial assessment. The guy is a dick!!!

[SuperGunGuru]

His intentions are questionable at best. how exactly will owning the MAME name/logo stop piracy? why does he feel he is entitled to own the MAME name/ logo when he had NOTHING to do with its creation? How will any of this stop the sale of emulator cabinets on ebay?

The guy is full of sh!t, period. none of his reasoning makes sense. it is pretty clear what he is up to. he is going after MAME because MAME is the biggest competition to his company, and its free to boot. this is his first step. if he gains ownership of the MAME name he will file a cease and desist against the true MAME owners. further litigation will follow, guaranteed. he will spearhead the fight against any type of emulation because it cuts into his profits.

The creators of MAME and other emulators will likely fold up shop and disappear. They do not have the time nor resources to fight a lengthy legal battle.

And the only option that will be left in the end is a $4,000.00 Ultracade machine (that will be renamed MAME because he owns the rights) which will come with the games that he decides are popular/ lucrative to own the rights to. Should you want to play any rare or obscure games, well tough sh!t.

So I stand by my initial assessment. The guy is a dick!!!

This pretty much sums up my feelings. I don't agree with selling mame cabs with roms fully loaded and even providing links to them is questionable for me. This guy has already tried to get royalties from people that use the mame logo for stuff like marquees, yet he has said that's not what he's about. He doesn't even have the trademark and he's trying to get royalties. :angry:

[Jorpho]

Royalties? I saw nothing about that.

[SuperGunGuru]

I believe it was on arcadecontrols.com where I read about the royalties. Someone said they got an email from this guy asking for royalties from using the MAME logo for marquees or whatever.

[Nature Boy]

I'm a little confused. Is it just the name and logo "MAME" that he's going after? 'Cause if it is who cares? The guy who created it should get some bucks for his work of course but I don't see why an emulator of another name would smell foul.

If it's the emulator itself that would stink but it's not like emulations is 100% legal, right? Owning roms of stuff you don't own yourself and all that? And that falls into the "well, I enjoyed it while I could - what's next" category.

[stargate]

I'm a little confused. Is it just the name and logo "MAME" that he's going after? 'Cause if it is who cares? The guy who created it should get some bucks for his work of course but I don't see why an emulator of another name would smell foul.

If it's the emulator itself that would stink but it's not like emulations is 100% legal, right? Owning roms of stuff you don't own yourself and all that? And that falls into the "well, I enjoyed it while I could - what's next" category.

I believe (for now) it is only the name and logo "MAME" he is after. Who cares? Well, this guy had nothing to do with MAME, the name or logo so he is basically trying to obtain the rights to something he had no part in creating. Imagine if you spent the better part of the past decade creating something and then some guy comes along and tries to steal it from you and then sues you for using it?? It's totally whacked.

Anyway, like I said, this is just the beginning. He will certainly try to shut down any form of emulation because it is hurting his business. Hopefully he falls flat on his face.

As for the whole "well, I enjoyed it while I could - what's next" aspect of it... Well, if emulation gets stamped out, the entire purpose behind emulation (preserving classic arcade games) will be lost as well. There are really only a handful of commercially viable classic games out there. The others will undoubtedly get swallowed up by time. How many functioning Rastan games do you think are still out there? What about Wizard of Wor, Sky Smashers, Scrambled Egg, Victory Road, Mikie High School Graffiti, Moon Cresta, etc etc. Well, not many. Now admittedly many people, most people, couldn't give a sh!t. Others, like myself, want to preserve ALL videogames for future generations to be able to enjoy. I would love to be able to show my grandchildren what I was playing when I was 12 years old. I feel that all videogames should be preserved. Emulation is the only way to accomplish this.

So when someone comes along and tries to shut down emulation (and it is always due to greed), just keep in mind the consequences.

As for the whole "emulation is illegal" deal. Well, technically, this holds some truth. But ask yourself this: If a billionaire went around the world buying up every piece if classic art, art that many considered an integral part of our history and culture and then announced he was going to destroy it all in a huge bonfire, what should we do? Do we let him destroy it because he owns it? because he has a legal right to destroy it? F that, someone has to step up to the plate and say "this is wrong" and save it.

[Jorpho]

Anyway, like I said, this is just the beginning. He will certainly try to shut down any form of emulation because it is hurting his business. Hopefully he falls flat on his face.

That's a rather harsh way of putting it... He just doesn't want people to make money (and compete with him) doing something illegally that he has worked hard to do legally.

[Phosphor Dot Fossils]

That's a rather harsh way of putting it... He just doesn't want people to make money (and compete with him) doing something illegally that he has worked hard to do legally.
That may be the case, but I think what people are objecting to is that he's going about it the wrong way, and quite probably doing something illegal (claiming someone else's intellectual property as his own) in the process.

[Iron Draggon]

OK, let's assume that he wins. What happens to "Put The Blame On Mame"? This is totally stupid. I hope that the judge throws HIM in jail for attempting it.

[Push Upstairs]

That's a rather harsh way of putting it... He just doesn't want people to make money (and compete with him) doing something illegally that he has worked hard to do legally.

PDF said it first but i will sum it up like this.

Doing something wrong (trademarking something that was never yours) to combat something wrong (playing illegal ROMS) doesnt make him right in any way.

The way he is going with this makes him far worse than those people downloading and playing ROM's.

[Nature Boy]

I believe (for now) it is only the name and logo "MAME" he is after. Who cares? Well, this guy had nothing to do with MAME, the name or logo so he is basically trying to obtain the rights to something he had no part in creating. Imagine if you spent the better part of the past decade creating something and then some guy comes along and tries to steal it from you and then sues you for using it?? It's totally whacked.

I *did* say he should be compensated for creating the logo. I do care about that. And I hope he fights it.


Well, if emulation gets stamped out, the entire purpose behind emulation (preserving classic arcade games) will be lost as well. .

I personally don't think emulation will *ever* be stamped out. It might be harder to come by roms or emulators, but it *will* live on. After all, creating a game for scratch that runs on a VCS emulator is 100% legal.

[Sylentwulf]

Nice :)

[Push Upstairs]

The guys name is David Foley?

I was picturing the guy from News Radio/Kids in the Hall LOL

[stonic]

Ultracade is featured in this month's Playmeter mag. There was no mention of the whole MAME flap. Likewise, it appears he removed all his comments about it from his website.

Foley/Ultracade = owned :D

http://home.ptd.net/~scottith/owned.jpg

[kingpong]

In the end, Foley wasn't so bad. Though probably the result of a bunch of backpedaling, and not his original plan, within a short period of time after the whole thing started he withdrew his claim without whining and it was picked up by Nicola. Overall, it wound up being a good thing for MAME, as it led to the revision of the MAME license (though it is still as laughable as any open or semi-open source license) and other legal-ish things, as well as spurring on increased actions against unwanted non-official MAME builds.

[SuperNES]

http://www.maj.com/gallery/Nuhvok-2000/FunnyStuff/owned.gif

[pragmatic insanester]

It's not like people are buying MAME cabs to satisfy their cravings for pornographic Mahjongg games

DO NOT TRAMPLE ON MY NICHE MARKET!

[stonic]

Well, the legit owner(s) of MAME(tm) are now going after EVERY auction that has "MAME" in the description:

http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php/topic,37734.0.html

There's also a big thread in RGVAC right now about it.

Thanks, Foley. Thanks a lot.

[Icarus Moonsight]

When I saw some celebrity had a MAME cocktail unit they bought off of ebay on one of them Crib-like shows. I knew this was coming...

I'm currently working on finishing up my rom set for the MAME cabinet I want to build in the near future... I think I'll shoot for the nearer future in light of all this.

Foley if your reading this... Go die in the forest, Foreskin breath!

As far as the MAME developement team requesting that the auctions be pulled I can understand that. You have to defend your property or you lose it.

[Kid Ice]

Hmmmm....I wonder if a commercial version of MAME isn't ahead...

[Griking]

6. You must not include any unlicensed game software (ROMs or CHDs) or artwork with your product. Furthermore, you must not provide information to those who purchase your product concerning where to obtain unlicensed game software.

7. You must not mislead the buyer with pictures or lists of games that do not come included with your product. Any games or pictures you use must refer to properly-licensed games that are included with the purchased product.


Where do the Mame team have the right to make this demand? Last I knew the rights to the roms themself were owned by the companies who made the games, not the Mame team. Actually, Mame has done everything they could to distance themselves from the actual game roms to avoid being associated with piracy.

The same goes with the game images. What right do the Mame team have to say that I can't put a screenshot of say Donkey Kong in an auction listing? Wouldn't that be Nintendo's problem?

[Ed Oscuro]

First off, trying to steal somebody else's trademark is always the wrong thing to do and makes you a sneaky bastard. That's pretty simple. Secondly...


Simply put, we are making an effort to stamp out the commercial sales of M.A.M.E. based systems that advertise the ability to play thousands of games while relying on the customer to obtain the ROMs which can not legally be obtained.
Eh? Who said that's any of his business? What he's trying to do is stamp out competition. Being ruthless perhaps means you've got "business sense," but I see that as perverse.

I have a number of Capcom ROMs on MAME (.36 era-ish) that I own legally, licensed by Hanaho Games from Capcom (or however that goes).

I would like to see illegal MAME cabinet sales on eBay killed, and so does the MAME team (officially, anyhow!).

@ Griking: Come on. If I create software, I have every right to say "Don't bundle this with Software X (be it competition, *.DLLs I've got for sale elsewhere, or anything illegal).

[LocalH]

As far as I know, this shit is completely over. Foley rescinded his trademark application, and I believe Nicola has either applied, or applied and already received the trademark.

[Ed Oscuro]

As far as I know, this shit is completely over.
Yup. I've seen another experience where some idiot tries to trademark a name so somebody else couldn't use it...noble intentions there (Foley's suspect really just because he's got a product, I've got nothing on him besides that) but it makes you look like an ass.

Oh, and if the examiner lets this stuff by, they've totally punted. You don't give people registrations (or copyrights) for stuff they didn't originate, but you've got to be on top of things to make sure the office doesn't mess that up. MAME is somewhat of a bafflement since the guy came out and said he was pretty much anti-MAME and Nicola's name is well known, but the link between rightful trademark owner and the "trademark" can easily be overlooked, especially if the rightful owner isn't interesting in registering.

Hence, register everything...and print stuff out...

[Griking]

@ Griking: Come on. If I create software, I have every right to say "Don't bundle this with Software X (be it competition, *.DLLs I've got for sale elsewhere, or anything illegal).

Maybe under normal circumstances but Mame has no purpose without the use of the illegal roms that they supposingly want to distance themselves from.

Also, demand #6 doesn't say anything about bundling roms with Mame. They just say that you "must not include any unlicensed game software (ROMs or CHDs) or artwork with your product."

Now let me make it clear, I don't sell roms, cabinets or anything Mame related but if I were going to make a cabinet and include 5 DVDs full of roms that would work on Mame if the buyer downloaded it himself what right does Mame say that I can't do that? Isn't that like Microsoft saying that I can't sell a book that I wrote that was in *.doc format because it can be viewed / opened with Word? I know at Staples we sell HP compatible printer cartridges that have no other purpose other than to be used in HP printers

[Captain Wrong]

All I know is I see an alarming amount of MAME cabs at auction anymore and they always seem to bring some of the highest bids. I've got no problem with people making and selling them. That's their biz. And if they wanna include teh r0mz (illegally, of course) that's between them, their concience and the law. I personally don't feel they should be at coin-op auctions. Just my 2 cents so I can understand why they might go after the people on eBay as that's probably the only area they might be able to patrol.

And I think Aron Giles is right on the money about this:


In order to use the trademark, we are going to have to set up some rules under which it can be used. This is likely going to come in the form of, simply, "You must request explicit permission to use the MAME trademark."

Of course, permission will be given to many legitimate uses (still have to ask, though!) But there is indeed a growing commercial sector that is abusing the MAME name to make claims that aren't true without violating the law ("Play 1000s of arcade games!" -- yeah right, show me your license for that), and quite frankly, many of the MAME team members are as against that as Mr. Foley is.

We'll be announcing more details shortly, but the most likely end result is going to be: if you want to use the MAME name, you've got to get rid of your illegal ROM links, your information on how to buy/download illegal ROMs, and your claims that anything you sell will let you play 100s or 1000s of games (unless you've legitimately licensed them).

[Ed Oscuro]

@ Griking: Come on. If I create software, I have every right to say "Don't bundle this with Software X (be it competition, *.DLLs I've got for sale elsewhere, or anything illegal).

Maybe under normal circumstances but Mame has no purpose without the use of the illegal roms that they supposingly want to distance themselves from.
Emulating systems isn't illegal, and that's been established for quite a while now. So saying there's no use to MAME (note that the code listings are freely available) isn't looking at the larger picture.

Secondly, you're assuming a whole lot with "illegal." This is the same garbage that P2P detractors use to claim that P2P (which is, indeed, the way of the future...way of the future) isn't usable for anything but illegal file sharing. Did you miss the part where I said I legally own some Capcom ROMs?

The MAME license works and is fair under law. Pure and simple.

[Jorpho]

Indeed, you can use MAME to play Gridlee, Poly-Play, and Robby Roto without any legal consequences.

[NE146]

I personally don't feel they should be at coin-op auctions.

I heartily agree.. there is something pretty stupid at trying to sell off a PC in a glorified casing as an actual coin-op. As a hobby project? Sure. But being sold along with other coin-ops is sort of like selling a tv-out laptop w/Z26 on it along with other 2600's.

[Griking]

Secondly, you're assuming a whole lot with "illegal." This is the same garbage that P2P detractors use to claim that P2P (which is, indeed, the way of the future...way of the future) isn't usable for anything but illegal file sharing. Did you miss the part where I said I legally own some Capcom ROMs?

If Mame's original purpose was so just play the Hanaho/Capcom roms (which I own as well btw) and someone else hacked it to play all roms I might agree with you. But Mame had already been out and providing a way to play illegal game roms for years at that point.

As far as P2P I again don't think its a a good comparison. you can use P2P to download ANY kind of file. Its only illegal if you're downloading copyrighted things. Mame's entire purpose on the other hand is to play bootleged (with the exception of a few already mentioned) games.

[Ed Oscuro]

... Mame had already been out and providing a way to play illegal game roms for years at that point.
Take a look at what Jorpho posted, and again, at what I wrote. There are legitimate purposes for MAME, and the drivers are meant to be generally compatible with the systems they emulate.

Now, if you're saying that there was a case to be made that MAME started out as a project with no legal uses (I don't think this has ever been the case, as it's an overall framework being built up over time to gain legal uses), then you might have something. But as of right now, you can't argue that MAME at present has no fair uses.

[Griking]

I've been using Mame for many many years now and I'm now distressed that I may have been missing the big picture.

What was/is the primary function of Mame other than providing the ability to play roms?

All of the other feature of Mame that I enjoy (the history files, snapshot & cabinet pics, etc...) were added after Mame had already been established as a rom playing tool. Even the ability to play Gridlee, Poly-Play, and Robby Roto were added after the fact.

[Ed Oscuro]

As far as P2P I again don't think its a a good comparison.
On the contrary; it's the best comparison I can think of because it deals with legitimate technology that has gained infamy due to its legion illegitimate uses.

For purposes of this discussion, we can say that the biggest thing separating Nullsoft (eh) Shoutcast broadcasting from MAME is that one allows you to broadcast your voice or any other home made recorded material. MAME seems different because arcade games = corporate property, right? Well, you've got some MAME games that are now private property.

Some folks don't like it, but as our lives grow more and more technology-centric we'll need to have software available for many tasks if we are to protect freedom of speech. What we need is a cheap system for selling game licenses to consumers, or even a home use only license for allowing you to use copies of an arcade game at a library, and the library would have a license for it much like they do a book.

[SoulBlazer]

So if someone wants to build a MAME cabinet and wants to buy the parts, and then emulate games on it that he ALLREADY owns, that will still be allright?

And if someone wants to sell a MAME cabinet, he needs to contact MAME first for permission to sell it on EBay and can't make any mention AT ALL of what it's USED for? :hmm:

[Nature Boy]

Take a look at what Jorpho posted, and again, at what I wrote. There are legitimate purposes for MAME, and the drivers are meant to be generally compatible with the systems they emulate.

Yeah yeah yeah, everybody knows that the emulation on it's own isn't illegal. But come off your high horse - you know as well as I do that 99.9% of the people who use and enjoy MAME do so with illegally obtained software.

Did it occur to you that perhaps they're just trying to keep the project from getting canned by the big boys? Isn't that why they ask you and I to not distribute the software with roms that aren't in the public domain? Isn't it reasonable to think "hey, if I copywrite this perhaps I can stop people on eBay from jeopardizing all of my hard work just so they can make a buck?"

The only stuff I've read about this is in this thread, but I saw nothing unreasonable. Excepting, of course, the typical overinflated sense of entitlement...

[ddockery]

So if someone wants to build a MAME cabinet and wants to buy the parts, and then emulate games on it that he ALLREADY owns, that will still be allright?

And if someone wants to sell a MAME cabinet, he needs to contact MAME first for permission to sell it on EBay and can't make any mention AT ALL of what it's USED for? :hmm:

You're mising the point. MAME cannot be legaly sold in any way. Selling any cabinet with MAME installed is illegal in and of itself. You can build and sell arcade cabinets with PCs connected to them all day, but MAME should not be installed. In this case, it's not a "MAME cabinet" at all. Sure, whoever buys it would probably install MAME, but when it's sold, it's just a PC in a cab.

As far as whether it's alright to build a cab to play roms you own, why in the world wouldn't it be?

[Diatribal Deity]

I believe Mr. Foley actually posted on here once...let me see...

Quote:
Originally Posted by NayusDante
"Ultracade as a company doesn't exist anymore. GlobalVR bought them,
and the original founder went on to insult the emulation community by filing copyright on the MAME logo."

Originally posted by DAVIDFOLEY
"You have your facts and timeline incorrect. I filed a trademark application for the word MAME to put a stop to commercial entities selling MAME based machines without licenses which were cutting into UltraCade sales. I had contacted the MAME team asking them to do something about it, and the requests went unanswered so I took legal actions to remedy the situation. Once the MAME team became involved, I gladly handed the trademark over to them. Aaron Giles confirmed this but most of the online community was too immature or motivated by other factors to listen to the facts. Also, this was done several years before we sold UltraCade."


Quote:
Originally Posted by NayusDante
"GlobalVR has a multi-arcade cabinet now, which includes more things like Dragon's Lair, Space Ace, Gauntlet, and maybe 1/3 of the original Ultracade 86-game-pack. It doesn't have any of the Capcom, Toaplan, or Williams stuff, from what I saw."

Originally posted by DAVIDFOLEY
"GlobalVR has discontinued this cabinet. It had less games than UltraCade did. We had Dragon's Lair et all on the UltraCade platform before GlobalVR acquired it and subsequently lost most of the licenses agreements.

Next year my MegaCade upgrade hardware will be released for the consumer market that will upgrade all existing UltraCade and Arcade Legends machines, and will have the option to load hundreds more games."

Looks like what goes around comes around.

[BetaWolf47]

Indeed, that was in my thread here:
http://www.digitpress.com/forum/showthread.php?t=132373

[Diatribal Deity]

GameRoom mag had an article about the indictment last month:

http://www.gamasutra.com/php-bin/news_index.php?story=24691

Interesting point that by purchasing a compilation you are buying a license for each of the games and then based on the end user agreement may be able to resell the license of those games (i.e. in an ultracade or like machine) thus circumventing the necessity to license each title from each company.

This was the case with Microsoft Return of Arcade which included titles like Pacman (Namco titles) and others.

Looking at this guy's bio, leads me to believe he is both very bright and litigation savvy. I do not envy those who will need to wade through the murky quagmire of this case.

[nhm]

I've only been on this forum a short while, but there are 3 things that I can tell you about threads like these:

1. Don't take legal advice or analysis from gamers.
2. Don't take business advice or analysis from gamers.
3. Don't take relationship advice or analysis from gamers.

By and large, gamers posting here have very little or no experience in any of these matters.

[InsaneDavid]

I've only been on this forum a short while, but there are 3 things that I can tell you about threads like these:

1. Don't take legal advice or analysis from gamers.
2. Don't take business advice or analysis from gamers.
3. Don't take relationship advice or analysis from gamers.

By and large, gamers posting here have very little or no experience in any of these matters.

4. Give advice on all three.

[nhm]

4. Give advice on all three.

Let's see....

Legal advice. Before you post on a forum what's legal and what's not legal, look it up. Almost all laws and regulations are posted on the internet. Example:
www.copyright.gov
Someone earlier posted that trademark=copyright. Not correct. The differences can be found here:
http://www.uspto.gov/web/offices/pac/doc/general/whatis.htm

Business advice. Do what you love, not what you think will make a lot of money. Do what you do better than anybody else can do it. Do your best to offer a product or service that nobody else offers.

Relationship advice. You have to give a little to get a little. Want to go to a convention or expo without getting any gruff? Take your lady out to a nice dinner the night before, or take her to a movie she wants to see (no matter what it is). This builds a cache of "do what the hell I want to do time."

[portnoyd]

I've only been on this forum a short while, but there are 3 things that I can tell you about threads like these:

1. Don't take legal advice or analysis from gamers.
2. Don't take business advice or analysis from gamers.
3. Don't take relationship advice or analysis from gamers.

By and large, gamers posting here have very little or no experience in any of these matters.

4. Don't take advice on being a troll from this guy. He's pretty terrible at it. The gamers are uneducated and antisocial angle is so 1998.

[Flack]

Let's see....

Legal advice. Before you post on a forum what's legal and what's not legal, look it up. Almost all laws and regulations are posted on the internet. Example:
www.copyright.gov
Someone earlier posted that trademark=copyright. Not correct. The differences can be found here:
http://www.uspto.gov/web/offices/pac/doc/general/whatis.htm

Business advice. Do what you love, not what you think will make a lot of money. Do what you do better than anybody else can do it. Do your best to offer a product or service that nobody else offers.

Relationship advice. You have to give a little to get a little. Want to go to a convention or expo without getting any gruff? Take your lady out to a nice dinner the night before, or take her to a movie she wants to see (no matter what it is). This builds a cache of "do what the hell I want to do time."

A wise man once told me:

1. Don't take legal advice or analysis from gamers.
2. Don't take business advice or analysis from gamers.
3. Don't take relationship advice or analysis from gamers.

[nhm]

Yes, but I was asked personally;). I don't think anyone can argue with the advice I gave anyway:angel:!

Also, I'm not trolling or looking for trouble, I'm just making an honest observation. It's not meant to put people down, it's meant to be funny.

[portnoyd]

It's not meant to put people down, it's meant to be funny.

So you're a troll?

[nhm]

So you're a troll?

Nope, not in the least. Maybe I have a more twisted sense of humor, but that's it. I think somebody once said something about the ability to "laugh at one's self".....