If you pressure them long enough they'll eventually cave

[njiska]

From Game Spot:
Sony will repair any of its handhelds suffering from a broken square button gratis; new models unaffected.

TOKYO--Following complaints by consumers in Japan, Sony Computer Entertainment officially announced that it will repair any PSP suffering from a defective square button. According to reports, a manufacturing defect caused some units' square buttons to stick when pressed and not pop back up.

Sony released a statement that said the problem affected only about 0.6 percent of the 510,000 PSPs that were shipped during 2004. The company assured gamers that the manufacturing problem has since been solved, and PSP units shipped after the start of 2005--all those that will go on sale in the US on March 24--will not suffer from the problem.

Owners of a Japanese PSP with a defective square button should send the unit to Sony's repair service, which will fix the machine for free. Details on the PSP swap are available from the official Japanese PlayStation site.

By Staff -- GameSpot

As arrogant as they were about it, Sony finally caved. It's a good day for anyone wanting a PSP. To be honest i didn't think they'd ever actually do it. I mean remeber this quote:
Kutaragi was unapologetic about the issue: "This is the design that we came up with. There may be people that complain about its usability, but that's something which users and game software developers will have to adapt to."

Guess we don't have to adapt anymore. I'm glad someone at Sony has some common sense.

[tholly]

great....now all the people that bitched that they werent going to get one because of a problem that affected 0.6% of Japanese systems no longer have that excuse....maybe they will realize that the system is gonna be good and that the value pack isnt too much money

[spider-man]

About time Sony did this (I find that logic/common sense and corporations don't mix LOL ). Thankfully my Jp psp had no such defects (with the exception of one dead pixel).

[Matt-El]

Man, Kutagari sounds like an ass! Even now if i were one to buy a psp with that fix-up available, Who knows what else might bust!

[CartCollector]

Hopefully other companies (read Nintendo) will follow their lead, and stop the arrogance toward the consumer. If you don't cater to the consumer, the consumer wont cater to you. That will be Nintendo's downfall, lest they heed that advice.

[Mr.FoodMonster]

Man, Kutagari sounds like an ass! Even now if i were one to buy a psp with that fix-up available, Who knows what else might bust!

Great example of this. PEOPLE WILL FIND ANYTHING TO BITCH ABOUT.

That is all.

[tholly]

Man, Kutagari sounds like an ass! Even now if i were one to buy a psp with that fix-up available, Who knows what else might bust!


....but chances are your system will perfectly...and never bust

what if by not buying it, you are missing out on a system that could become your favorite system....but you'd never know cuz you didnt buy it

[goatdan]

great....now all the people that bitched that they werent going to get one because of a problem that affected 0.6% of Japanese systems no longer have that excuse....

I don't think that this is the only thing that people were concerned about. And realistically, were the people who were bitching about that button (and you're quoting Sony's problem number, which quite frankly I wouldn't believe -- companies often cite numbers that can only be a guess...) Anyway, were the people who were bitching about how I wouldn't get one just because of that button actually going to buy them?

Now, for the people that were concerned about Sony's reply about the problems of the model and how consumers would have to deal with it, they might be more willing to get one now... But that doesn't make Kutaragi's comment a fair one. Perhaps that turned some people away from it, and fixing it now might just be too little, too late.


maybe they will realize that the system is gonna be good and that the value pack isnt too much money

How do you know that the system will be good? You can make a statement for yourself that the value pack isn't too much money, but that doesn't convince anyone else of it.

I can't wait to see the games. I can't wait to see the system in action. I was surprised and a little put off to see that games would cost $50.00 for it though. I haven't paid more than $20.00 for a current gen game, and for portable games -- no matter how good -- I can't ever see paying over $40.00.

I know that you've preordered, but I think that I'm going to take the "wait and see" route. It most definitely is out of my price range right now...

[Cirrus]

Whoops, I thought this post was about talking your wife into letting you buy arcade machines...

[joshnickerson]

If you don't cater to the consumer, the consumer wont cater to you. That will be Nintendo's downfall, lest they heed that advice.

What are you babbling about? Nintendo's customer service is LEGENDARY.

[tholly]

If you don't cater to the consumer, the consumer wont cater to you. That will be Nintendo's downfall, lest they heed that advice.

What are you babbling about? Nintendo's customer service is LEGENDARY.


i dont think his comment is a matter of customer service

[njiska]

Hopefully other companies (read Nintendo) will follow their lead, and stop the arrogance toward the consumer. If you don't cater to the consumer, the consumer wont cater to you. That will be Nintendo's downfall, lest they heed that advice.

Sony is arrogant, Nintendo is proud. Nintendo's lack of support for the broadband adapter shows that they don't always listen to what we want, But at least their customer service is good and at least thhey try to help us.. My DS had a dead Pixel and they immediately sent me a replacement, they didn't ask for POP or anything. They just said, "Ok we'll ship you the replacement and then you can ship your bad one back after you get it."

Nintendo is a good company that does care about it's customers, however they can't anwser your every demand. Sony on the other hand perfers to not admit that a problem exists and would much rather just screw you. On top of that Sony isn't very loyal to anyone, not even other companies. Sony is greedy, Nintendo and Microsoft (at least in the console realm) are not. Nintendo's a quality company. If somethings not up to par they will try to fix it. Microsoft cares about innovation and they have pretty much set the standard for what should be in a good console. Sony can't be branded as being either. Their customer support is sub-par at best and they're innovations usally involve taking a good idea and adding to their system at an addintional cost to the consumer. Or coming up with an interesting idea (i.e. the Cell) and taking for piss ever to get it to market. To be honest Sony admitting to the button problem and offering to fix it is the first good thing they've done in a long long time and i hope it's the start of a new trend, though i doubt it will be.

[soniko_karuto]

great....now all the people that bitched that they werent going to get one because of a problem that affected 0.6% of Japanese systems no longer have that excuse....maybe they will realize that the system is gonna be good and that the value pack isnt too much money

Uhm, sorry, but let's say that you bought a car, ok?, so you test drived the one at the agency, and loved it. So you hop on your brand new car, and BEHOLD!! the brake does not work!!

should you:
A) bitch about it and sue some assess from some companys,
B) be happy because your car came with a free ipod, or
C) adapt to it.

Have a nice day.

[chicnstu]

soniko_karuto

Nice. That was good.

[Matt-El]

The Answer Is A. ALWAYS A. You as a consumer have a right to.
Truthfully my opinion on Sony is I just don't really care. I used to hate Sony for when way back they went behind nintendo and planned on releasing a 32 bit playstation anyway and would also be able to play the 16 bit SNES CD Games. That doesn't mean that Nintendo wasn't crafty with stuff like lockout chips and stuff, but those two things are unrelated and pointless to bicker about. Doesn't matter anymore to me now.

But I must say he really did sound like an ass! LOL

[tholly]

great....now all the people that bitched that they werent going to get one because of a problem that affected 0.6% of Japanese systems no longer have that excuse....maybe they will realize that the system is gonna be good and that the value pack isnt too much money

Uhm, sorry, but let's say that you bought a car, ok?, so you test drived the one at the agency, and loved it. So you hop on your brand new car, and BEHOLD!! the brake does not work!!

should you:
A) bitch about it and sue some assess from some companys,
B) be happy because your car came with a free ipod, or
C) adapt to it.

Have a nice day.

completely out of context

sure...those 0.6% of people should complain
but.....0.6% is a VERY small percentage and should not affect any other people's decisions

everyone that drives car X doesnt return it because 5 people out of 10,000,000 had a problem with something....it would take more than those 5 to affect anything

no product has 100% perfect rate of production

[Graham Mitchell]

If you don't cater to the consumer, the consumer wont cater to you. That will be Nintendo's downfall, lest they heed that advice.

What are you babbling about? Nintendo's customer service is LEGENDARY.

You took the words right out of my...hands. Nintendo has the best customer service of any video game company I've dealt with.

[hezeuschrist]

great....now all the people that bitched that they werent going to get one because of a problem that affected 0.6% of Japanese systems no longer have that excuse....maybe they will realize that the system is gonna be good and that the value pack isnt too much money

Sorry, unless the PSP can give me head, $250 is too much. $200 is too much. I don't give a shit what kind of worthless features it's got, unless it's pleasing me physically it's not worth it.

And yes, 0.6% of all systems sold is a fucking HUGE number for a serious an issue as a button not retracting to it's proper position. It's every bit a part of the core functionality as the battery is, and for Sony to sit back and say, "99.4% working products, good enough" is INTENSELY arrogant and it's not so much people aren't willing to purchase the system for fear of a defective square button, but for fear of ANY defect and having Sony tell them finger themselves. By the way, saying 5 out of 10 million is nowhere near the (if Sony's numbers are to be trusted) 3,060 of 510,000 defective units.

This product will be the begining of something terrible. Sure I'll get one somtime, as I'm a collector and it's bound to have a game or 2 I'll want to play, but it's going to be at a serious bargain price.

You really need to take off your fanboy glasses and realize that the price alone of this thing is an absolutely horrible thing to happen to gaming. Not to mention they can't even begin to backup the rationalization for the price by claiming it's a high quality piece of hardware, the only thing they can say about it is it's sexy. People will pay it and that sucks for EVERYONE.

[dreamcaster]

The main thing turning me off the PSP is the crappy battery life. 2-4 hours? No thanks - the Atari Lynx and Sega Game Gear were getting better mileage 15 years ago.

And the constant recharging of the PSP's battery will cause it to die earlier, forcing you to either buy a new battery, or shelve the system if you don't think it's worth the money to do so.

[tholly]

You really need to take off your fanboy glasses and realize that the price alone of this thing is an absolutely horrible thing to happen to gaming.


im anything but a fanboy...i refused to buy a PSX and only got mine when i got it in a lot with 2 NES systems complete, 1 boxed, and a bunch of games for $20....even then i havent played more than 1 or 2 games on it

the ps2, i have very little games for it, and the last game i bought for it was katamari damacy....so, if anything i am a nintendo fanboy or microsoft fanboy

[PDorr3]

yeah I'm not suprised they came down to this, it's only right they repair the units.

[hezeuschrist]

Then why do you blindly advocate the greatness of a system that hasn't even had the chance to overcome it's glaringly obvious obstacles? The price being the Alpha and Omega of why it's a terrible landmark in gaming history.

If Sony garners support for it at $250, they will set a precedent and have no reason to reasonably price any furture handheld, nor will any competitor. Nintendo included.

[sirgeoph]

Then why do you blindly advocate the greatness of a system that hasn't even had the chance to overcome it's glaringly obvious obstacles? The price being the Alpha and Omega of why it's a terrible landmark in gaming history.

If Sony garners support for it at $250, they will set a precedent and have no reason to reasonably price any furture handheld, nor will any competitor. Nintendo included.

Not necessarily. PS2 was released at $300 in 2001. Which sounds like, okay, everything new will be $300. GameCube? $150. You can't really say that it'd set a precedent. It might set a precedent for Sony handhelds, but not all future handhelds.

All that aside, why doesn't Sony fix all the defective CD eyes they put in their PS2s for the past 4 years? Seems like that'd be a good idea.

[tholly]

Then why do you blindly advocate the greatness of a system that hasn't even had the chance to overcome it's glaringly obvious obstacles? The price being the Alpha and Omega of why it's a terrible landmark in gaming history.

If Sony garners support for it at $250, they will set a precedent and have no reason to reasonably price any furture handheld, nor will any competitor. Nintendo included.


but...the price isnt the alpha and the omega

i know im not paying for it as its a gift, but i was planning to get it for myself at the $250 price....if it was $300 i would have still decided to get it

the price was not the make or break it for me

im not saying it is going to be the one and only needed system, the system to end the need of all other systems, im just saying that i cant understand how people can bash it on an insignificant problem ... 0.6% is statistically unsignifcant .... and how can they bash it if they havent even played a demo system

[soniko_karuto]

to all the people who won't wait for a rerelease of the psp: i hope you get a sticky button :P

[Griking]

The primary reason that I won't buy one when its released here in the USA is because Sony is known for the shitty quality of their consoles when they're first released. Think about it, every one of them has had big problems when they were first released. So now Sony is finally agreeing to repair them under warranty. Hurray for Sony!!! :roll:

Besides, by the time they redesign the thing and release it without defects not only will it probably be cheaper but I won't have to purchase accessories and games that I don't want when I buy it.

[Griking]

Oops, double post. :angry:

[Ulticron]

Sony is in the business to make money, nothing more nothing less. There's been defects in all their products. Even back in the playstation days they were more concerned with money by making a machine that pirates couldn't mod instead of worrying about the fact that after a few yrs of use the CD laser gets a little off center and when it reads games music and video are really choppy. I took excellent care of my playstation and it has that problem. I've had my hands on several different Saturns and they've never had that problem. Why? Cause while Sega was in the business to make money too, they were also in the business to make a quality product.

As for joshnickerson's comment, I agree w/him. Nintendo is excellent with customer service. The only product problem I ever had was with my original gameboy. Entire lines of pixels simply died and it was getting worse. I called Nintendo, they told me that the first few thousand gameboys they produced had that problem, told me where my nearest Nintendo repairman was and that there would be no charge for the repair. Not only did they repair it for free they told me they put new A/B buttons and sensors in free of charge too. As far as making games and catering to the consumer Nintendo's only mistake has been not buying Sega when they had the chance. It would have made them an overnight unstoppable GOD if they had done that, but still I enjoy my cube none the less.

Back to Sony, I'm not going to applaud them for finally making right their wrongs. They should have done that in the first place, and honestly their previous arrogance about the matter has turned me off to them completely. I have a handful of games I still want for my Playstation and my Playstation 2, after that's all said and done, I probably won't be spending anymore of my money on them.

[SirDrexl]

So, does this actually fix the issue about the button not being as responsive as the others, or just how it can stick? It seems like two different things. The way Kutaragi talks about it, the issue with the button not being as responsive as the others is due to the way the system was designed, and every unit would be affected by it, not just a small percentage of them.

[anagrama]

So what will the haterz find to bitch about now then? I mean, there's gotta be something, right?

[Griking]

So what will the haterz find to bitch about now then? I mean, there's gotta be something, right?

Its not about hating and wanting to bitch, its about having certain expectations of a product when you're asked to shell out $250 for it.

[njiska]

So what will the haterz find to bitch about now then? I mean, there's gotta be something, right?

Blind Faith, so foolish. You don't have to be a hater to bitch about the PSP. The problems spoke for themselves and they were, and are still are very real. Maybe you don't realize it but there is still the issue of dead pixels with the PSP and beleive me even one dead pixel will piss you off. I had one on my DS and it pissed me off to no end. But i got it replaced for free.

See a "Hater" finds a little, insignificant problem and blows it out of proportion. We on the other hand are complaining about huge problems that weren't, and in the case of the dead pixels, still aren't being addressed. A sticky button is a life or death matter with a console and dead pixels really hurt the experience. Griking was right. We have expectaions when we're spending that much money and i damn well think our concerns are justified. Sony has fixed the sticky button because of complaints from people like us, the gamers. Now if you find someone bitching that the unit is too shiny, then you've found a real hater. But don't bitch about us.

And if you think i'm a Sony hater just trying to cover up let me share this with you. I do not like Sony's business practices and i do not like their quality control. I know Sony builds devices from cheap parts that have a tendance to break. However all that aside i still own a PSTwo and i am planing on buying a PSP so i can enjoy MGA. In short i don't like Sony, but i don't hate them either.

[esquire]

So, does this actually fix the issue about the button not being as responsive as the others, or just how it can stick? It seems like two different things. The way Kutaragi talks about it, the issue with the button not being as responsive as the others is due to the way the system was designed, and every unit would be affected by it, not just a small percentage of them.

I was thinking the same thing here. Is everyone sure we are talking about the same issue? The original issue was a design defect that made the square button unresponsive because it was loacated too close to the PSP's screen. The issue raised in the orginal post was a sticky square button that didn't return to the default position. It could be the same, but it doesn't sound the same. A design defect would affect all consoles, not just a small percentage. Th e problem in the original post sounds like a manufacturing defect that only affected a few consoles during a certain production run. If that is the case, I am not sure if the problem has been resolved.

[petewhitley]

Sony is in the business to make money, nothing more nothing less ... Cause while Sega was in the business to make money too, they were also in the business to make a quality product.

Saying stuff like that gets in the way of any reasonable point you're trying to make, and paints you as a deluded fanboy of the worst kind. And Nintendo has been in the videogame market because they're altruistic, right? All companies are in business to make money. Sony, Sega, Nintendo, 3DO, blah blah blah. My god, I can't believe how people come up with this shit.

[Muscelli]

Huzzah!

[goatdan]

I forgot all about this thread! To reply to two comments...


im not saying it is going to be the one and only needed system, the system to end the need of all other systems, im just saying that i cant understand how people can bash it on an insignificant problem ... 0.6% is statistically unsignifcant ....

First off, according to Sony there were 0.6% of the consoles returned because of the problem so far. Now, if the big rumor holds true that the PSP has such a high demand in Japan that you can't find one anywhere, people that purchased one might be holding onto it until they can get another console to replace it. Others will do just what Sony wants them to do and "deal." The hardware was perfect, don't complain :roll:

For fairness sake, let us say that it is only 1% that suffer this problem. From what I have heard, that would be estimating very low, but hey. 1% should be "statistically unimportant" just like 0.6%, right?

Well, if 1% of the people have a problem with the PSP, and lets say that it sells a total of a million consoles at launch, that means that 10,000 consoles will be returned to Sony for the defective button. This means that $2,500,000 worth of consoles will be returned.

Sony, therefore including the defective consoles, sold $250,000,000 worth of consoles. Of that, we can realistically say that 5% will be "profit" for the early systems if history holds true. That means that on sales of $250,000,000, Sony will have gained $12,500,000.

The returns of the systems will have to come out of this meager profit. So doing the math that follows, the failures will eat 20% of Sony's profits.

Is 20% an insignificant number?

You can't sit there and claim that 0.6% is insignifcant. In your example, if there was 10,000,000 consoles sold, that wouldn't be 5 people, that would be 60,000. And if Sony's public relations arm spun that number somehow, I would imagine the real number would be much higher.

And companies spin their numbers all the time to make them look better. I have specific examples I have seen in real life. Naive people believe them all the time. Look further and don't be so trusting to see the truth.


and how can they bash it if they havent even played a demo system

Because Sony stated that the consumer has to adapt to everything that everyone has said isn't so good about the PSP. Crappy battery life? That's up to the programmers to make games that don't use the processor much. Sticky button? That's up to the programmers to avoid using and consumers to adjust to. Dead pixels? (If you believer it) that's your problem unless the screen is pretty much dead. High price on systems and games? Too bad.

I don't have to have a system in front of me to know that I don't like those three things about it.

I was in an EB just yesterday talking with a bunch of people that were comparing the PSP and the DS. They were all, as far as I can tell, "casual" gamers and the word on the street from them is that they don't like the battery life and they would rather buy a PS2 and games or a DS and games instead of a PSP. I think that the PSP will be a hard sell to people who don't have all of the current systems because they could get a DS and a GameCube for the same price as a PSP.

I'm interested and have racked up a metric ton of credit from EB from their game trade-in thing this month, but I'll admit that I am not sure if I want to buy a PSP, get a DS and a bunch of games or wait for the next gen something-or-another to be released... The fact that the games will cost $40-50 where the DS games cost $25-$35 really has me thinking too...


honestly, I love mine, but I am really tired of buying failure systems.. 1st system was a saturn, second was a dreamcast, 3rd was a gamecube (not really a failure, but defiently the underdog of this gen). I am really getting worried about DS..

How you can be worried about a system that has had the most successful worldwide launch ever in the terms of numbers sold is beyond me, but okay.


those of u that think ds will kill psp, take note that gameboy never "won" a war aginst another portable, but rather the portables producers had financial trouble.. sony is defiently going to be its first real competition... gamegear was good and all, but sega was balancing way too much on themselves when they released it, they had what, 4 consoles out at the time..

Here I would like to point out the fact that the Atari Lynx BLEW AWAY the GameBoy when released, and it was released very shortly after the GameBoy (less than a month, if memory serves me right). Atari was definitely not in any financial trouble at the time, and attempted to promote the Lynx. The problem was that consumers had loved the NES so much and the brand name was so strong (unlike Atari) that Nintendo ran away with it. Oh, and cost difference: Lynx was $149.00, GameBoy was $109.00.

Sega was much more of a rival than Atari was because not just did Sega have a more powerful system (although less powerful than the Lynx), they also had the trust of consumers. When the GameGear came out it was 1990 and Sega was only promoting the Genesis. I don't know where the other three consoles come in, unless you're counting the Sega Master System... The Sega CD came out in 1992, and the 32X in 1994. Those didn't cause the downfall of the GameGear.

Nintendo has managed to kill each generation of challenger because of a strong brand name and strong games to go with it. Sony is probably the first major threat since Sega, but so far the weakest portable has prevailed... And it has always had the Nintendo seal of quality on it. That is an undeniable fact.


i hate to say it, but i think psp will really kill DS's sales.. considering DS is aimed at a younger audience (who dont shop online), though ds still has a change with the price tag

I don't understand why you think the DS is aimed only at a younger audience. Yes, it has a Mario game on it, but the included demo was for Metroid Prime: Hunters. Not exactly a children's game. I'd say that the DS is aimed pretty well straight across the board.

Besides that, especially in America it is probably more important to get a grip on the younger crowd. They play in the car when on trips, they play on the bus on the way to school, they play with their friends when they get together and so on. Once you become an adult in the US, chances are you are the driver on that tripp, you aren't taking the bus to work and, unless you're a collector, you're not usually calling your friends to get together to play DS games. As a regular ol' consumer, if I get a portable I'm going to be playing it when I'm home. That being the case, why would I want to play a portable console that is more expensive than any regular console by almost double? I already have a sweet stereo and great TV that I would like to play on.

The DS has the gimmick stick that I can't use on any of the home consoles. And that's something kinda cool. And as an adult, it makes sense on why I would need another console to do that, and that I wouldn't / couldn't do it on my regular ol' TV. So now if I'm looking for new games, I have a chance.

Nintendo still hasn't truly won because their software line up sucks right now. But if they can pull out some quality titles in time for the US launch of the PSP like Metroid, Mario Kart and Animal Crossing, I think it will be a huge uphill battle for the PSP in the States.

[njiska]

Goatdan that has to be one of the most thorough and detailed posts i've ever seen. You make good points and very clearly. Maybe someone will actually read your post and finally get the point.

[Muscelli]

ive been owned by u goatdan... i didnt know about the lynx or such

[Graham Mitchell]

Thanks, Goatdan. I can't believe all this had to be literally spelled out for people.

You know, everybody's really quick to dismiss somebody as a "fanboy" or a hater. Logical, thinking people can come to their own conclusions. So somebody agrees with the Nintendeo fanboys to a certain extent here. That doesn't make them a fanboy, or a Sony hater.

Every video game company has made a mistake at some point that pisses people off. Now it's Sony's turn (again). Just because they've screwed over consumers several times in the past 10 years doesn't mean I hate Sony across the board. I dislike the way they're handling this, and I feel that the DS is just a better system, as it provides something totally new instead of the same old same old. I don't care how big that screen is; all games look better on a TV, and the PSP offers nothing in terms of innovation in gaming. Nintendo's giving us many reasons to get excited about their new machine. Sony brand loyalty seems to be prevailing for most people that I talk to, however.

OK, end rant.

[petewhitley]

First off, according to Sony there were 0.6% of the consoles returned because of the problem so far. Now, if the big rumor holds true that the PSP has such a high demand in Japan that you can't find one anywhere, people that purchased one might be holding onto it until they can get another console to replace it. Others will do just what Sony wants them to do and "deal." The hardware was perfect, don't complain :roll:

For fairness sake, let us say that it is only 1% that suffer this problem. From what I have heard, that would be estimating very low, but hey. 1% should be "statistically unimportant" just like 0.6%, right?

Well, if 1% of the people have a problem with the PSP, and lets say that it sells a total of a million consoles at launch, that means that 10,000 consoles will be returned to Sony for the defective button. This means that $2,500,000 worth of consoles will be returned.

Sony, therefore including the defective consoles, sold $250,000,000 worth of consoles. Of that, we can realistically say that 5% will be "profit" for the early systems if history holds true. That means that on sales of $250,000,000, Sony will have gained $12,500,000.

The returns of the systems will have to come out of this meager profit. So doing the math that follows, the failures will eat 20% of Sony's profits.

Is 20% an insignificant number?

You can't sit there and claim that 0.6% is insignifcant. In your example, if there was 10,000,000 consoles sold, that wouldn't be 5 people, that would be 60,000. And if Sony's public relations arm spun that number somehow, I would imagine the real number would be much higher.

And companies spin their numbers all the time to make them look better. I have specific examples I have seen in real life. Naive people believe them all the time. Look further and don't be so trusting to see the truth.

Dan, you paint a nice picture, in this case your facts are suspect, and ultimately they've been pulled out of thin air. Firstly, you've extrapolated from Sony's official figure of 0.6% to 1.0%. Why and how? Because of YOUR uninformed assumptions. Secondly, you say that Sony is making a 5% profit off of system sales. This is known to be untrue. Sony is selling the PSP at a loss. Why on earth would they do that? To make money off software sold to an installed user base of course, just as multiple consoles before the PSP have done. The whole "20%" of profits portion of your agrument is absurd and irrelevant, Sony isn't in the business of selling the PSP system to make a profit, it's trying to install a user base. It may be naive to trust everything Sony/Nintendo/etc. say, but you'd be just as naive to trust a marketing analysis that operates on false assumptions and non-facts.


I don't understand why you think the DS is aimed only at a younger audience. Yes, it has a Mario game on it, but the included demo was for Metroid Prime: Hunters. Not exactly a children's game. I'd say that the DS is aimed pretty well straight across the board.

Besides that, especially in America it is probably more important to get a grip on the younger crowd. They play in the car when on trips, they play on the bus on the way to school, they play with their friends when they get together and so on. Once you become an adult in the US, chances are you are the driver on that tripp, you aren't taking the bus to work and, unless you're a collector, you're not usually calling your friends to get together to play DS games. As a regular ol' consumer, if I get a portable I'm going to be playing it when I'm home. That being the case, why would I want to play a portable console that is more expensive than any regular console by almost double? I already have a sweet stereo and great TV that I would like to play on.

The DS has the gimmick stick that I can't use on any of the home consoles. And that's something kinda cool. And as an adult, it makes sense on why I would need another console to do that, and that I wouldn't / couldn't do it on my regular ol' TV. So now if I'm looking for new games, I have a chance.

Nintendo still hasn't truly won because their software line up sucks right now. But if they can pull out some quality titles in time for the US launch of the PSP like Metroid, Mario Kart and Animal Crossing, I think it will be a huge uphill battle for the PSP in the States.

Your view is not only America-centric (a mistake in an international system war), but it is largely "goatdan-centric" (based upon your own gaming preferences, from a guy who apparently never rides the bus/train/airplane or carpools). Pre-order sales are showing us an overwhelming demand among the general public for the PSP (you can read about it's effect on American retailers HERE (http://www.bwflag.com/2005/02/eb_no_longer_ab.html), and we've seen the continual sellout in Japan). Past "gimmick" systems (Virtual Boy, Vectrex, a variety of failed control systems) have shown us that the public has little interest in "gimmicks", and instead prefers technologically-advanced, entertaining, original games (just another reason that Sony has won the current home system wars, they have simply offered more original gaming concepts not found on the GC). And even Nintendo (you can check that HERE (http://www.nintendo.com/games)) doesn't plan on having Metroid Hunters, Mario Kart DS, or Animal Crossing anywhere near release before the PSP launches. I applaud your efforts to make the DS seem like the little-system-that could, but in the real world (one that includes international markets, as well as the general, non- classic gaming public) most signs point to a pending Sony victory. But as you said, the war hasn't been won yet. We'll see.

[Algol]

-IMO, the $250 price for the PSP is at the very least, going to be an obstacle for Sony. You may say that Sony is aiming for the older market, but I say when the DS is a whole $100 cheaper, and has specs that are FAR from competitive, the choice isn't like black and white.

-Considering about 6 of every 1000 Japanese PSPs had the bad sqare button, I doubt it will really be much of a factor for the consumers, but Sony really shot themselves in the foot the way they made it sound like ALL PSPs were that way and to just "adapt."

-I truly believe the DS can be an excellent console, but I'm holding off on getting one until it gets some more quality titles. Aditionally, Nintendo has stated the DS is NOT GBA's successor. I'm wondering if Nintendo is going to announce the next Game Boy right before the PSP's launch to steal some of Sony's thunder.

[goatdan]

Dan, you paint a nice picture, in this case your facts are suspect, and ultimately they've been pulled out of thin air. Firstly, you've extrapolated from Sony's official figure of 0.6% to 1.0%. Why and how? Because of YOUR uninformed assumptions.

Do you understand at all how marketing companies do things? If 0.6% of the consoles had been returned due to problematic buttons before Sony announced they would replace broken ones, that's nice but something tells me the ultimate number will be higher.

Since you think that apparently anything that is printed must be true, let me give you an example of a press spin:


Strap in and fly the fast track this summer aboard Midwest's Most Extreme Thrill Ride Ever! Vertical Velocity, or V2 for short, is a suspended spiraling impulse coaster that utilizes an advance design electromagnetic propulsion system to launch riders to speeds of up to 70 mph in less than four seconds.

All right... this press release seems to state that the ride will launch you to 70 mph in less than four seconds. In fact, every press release that Great America has done on this ride says so. But it doesn't.

I worked on the ride. The launch is 0 to 40 in about six seconds. The time that you go 0 to 70 is when you drop back to Earth from 180 feet in the air after the second launch.

Is the PR a lie? No. Is it the entire truth? Absolutely not.

Do I trust Sony that "only 0.6%" of the units suffer from this problem? So far, perhaps. Is it the entire pictures? Absolutely not. If you think otherwise, that's fine... but don't try to tell me that guessing that 1% of the units actually suffer from this problem and I can't question Sony's PR.


Secondly, you say that Sony is making a 5% profit off of system sales. This is known to be untrue. Sony is selling the PSP at a loss. Why on earth would they do that? To make money off software sold to an installed user base of course, just as multiple consoles before the PSP have done. The whole "20%" of profits portion of your agrument is absurd and irrelevant, Sony isn't in the business of selling the PSP system to make a profit, it's trying to install a user base. It may be naive to trust everything Sony/Nintendo/etc. say, but you'd be just as naive to trust a marketing analysis that operates on false assumptions and non-facts.

My gosh, are you really that out of it to see that I outlined the entire thing because 0.6% is not an insignificant number. And the fact is that you don't know how much Sony is or is not making off the PSP sales. Obviously, the hardware numbers aren't where Sony is going to make the majority of their money, but that has nothing to do with anything else.


Your view is not only America-centric (a mistake in an international system war),

No crap? We were talking about the American launch here last I checked. Maybe you missed these lines:


Besides that, especially in America it is probably more important to get a grip on the younger crowd.


I think it will be a huge uphill battle for the PSP in the States.

So yes, I think I established that fact rather well. But thanks for telling me that wasn't what I was looking at.

I think that the PSP's marketing is suited very well for Asia where devices that are all in one like it are very well received, and owning your own car is a very rare thing.


but it is largely "goatdan-centric" (based upon your own gaming preferences,

On my own preferences? Of what? The fact that I said that as a consumer the DS offers something the PSP doesn't? Last I checked, it was a fact that the DS had a touch screen and the PSP didn't.


from a guy who apparently never rides the bus/train/airplane or carpools).

Amazingly, I've rode most of those. In fact, I ride a bus to work four times a week... but I drive to get to the bus stop.

I don't know how you think everyone in America is commuting everywhere. I bet that if we did a poll of the people that were out of High School, I would bet that at least 90% had a car. I would also assume that the percentage for having a car of people married with kids would be even higher.


Pre-order sales are showing us an overwhelming demand among the general public for the PSP (you can read about it's effect on American retailers HERE (http://www.bwflag.com/2005/02/eb_no_longer_ab.html), and we've seen the continual sellout in Japan).

Wow. Are you seriously claiming an article that states that if you didn't preorder it "sucks to be you" to be a totally reputable source? That's sad if you are.

That article states _nothing_ about how many units are being shipped. What if every store is getting two units? You yourself in the past claimed that Sony just can't find a way to make more units. (Why this is is still beyond me.) But anyway, taking your argument from before, maybe Sony just can't supply enough of them.


Past "gimmick" systems (Virtual Boy, Vectrex, a variety of failed control systems) have shown us that the public has little interest in "gimmicks", and instead prefers technologically-advanced, entertaining, original games (just another reason that Sony has won the current home system wars, they have simply offered more original gaming concepts not found on the GC).

I find your view to be "largely pete-centric." You claimed three things that you feel that people like in games. The first was technologically advanced. Okay, so the PS2 should be at a disadvantage there, right?

What about the GameBoy vs. the Lynx? GameBoy vs. GameGear? Playstation vs. N64? NES vs. Sega Master System? Atari 2600 vs. pretty much everything?

I'm sorry, but technologically advanced doesn't hold true, at least not if history shows us anything.

Entertaining is a things that are in the eyes of the beholder. I agree that it takes games like that to move systems. But I don't find the GTA series or Halo to be entertaining at all. You never know what will catch someone's fancy.

As for your originality comment, that must be in the eye of the beholder too, as I find a lot more wacky, off-the-wall concepts seem to get published to the non-Sony systems first, and work better on non-Sony systems. I would give the PS2 Katamari, but beyond that I can't think of any high-profile "original" games for it. Off the top of my head, I can think of Super Monkey Ball and Viewtiful Joe for the GameCube.

Oh, and Viewtiful Joe was also released for the PS2, but sold fewer copies to PS2 owners than it did as a GameCube game.

So anyway, your opinions on why the PS2 is so great simply don't hold up to the reasons that a system wins.

As for the gimmick deal, I stated it was a gimmick stick because in a very real way, it is. But it is also the part of the system that you cannot get with other systems. Why didn't the Virtual Boy succeed? It had a lot to do with the screen and what the system was and was not. The DS is a hell of a lot less of a gimmick than the Virtual Boy is, and is realistically portable. A direct comparison of the two is unfair.

As far as I know, PDAs have been relatively popular in the past five or so years. In fact, PDAs with their little gimmick stick have vastly outsold the original handheld computers. Seems to have worked for them.


And even Nintendo (you can check that HERE (http://www.nintendo.com/games)) doesn't plan on having Metroid Hunters, Mario Kart DS, or Animal Crossing anywhere near release before the PSP launches.

All that I can find on the pages for all of those is this:

"Release Date: Announced"

Last I checked on _all_ of those titles, they had no release dates. It is often that companies pull out the big guns at the launch of another console. Remember when the Dreamcast came out? So did Final Fantasy 8. Same day. I wouldn't be surprised to see some of those titles by then.


I applaud your efforts to make the DS seem like the little-system-that could,

And I applaud your efforts to defend Sony to the bitter end, even when I wasn't attacking them. Nintendo has a track record in handheld consoles, that calling a system that has an installed userbase of over a million in the US the "little-system-that could" doesn't make sense to me. You dismiss the DS like it isn't a contender.

It is a contender. And for the moment at least, it has the upper hand in the US market. Maybe that is "just" because the PSP hasn't come out yet, but you need to stop ignoring the fact that the DS exists and has already proven itself with a line up of games that is one of the worst ever for a console this far into its lifespan.


but in the real world (one that includes international markets,

Again, since when did the conversation about the US market include international markets? Did I not make this clear to you, or do you just choose to not read my posts when deciding how to defend Sony?

I wasn't attacking Sony. I'll say it again. I wasn't attacking Sony.

Lay off. You claim to not be a Sony fanboy, yet _every time_ I make an argument about how the data that is out there right now means that you cannot simply dismiss the DS, you come into the conversation and act like you can dismiss it because it isn't Sony.

Next time, read the argument before replying please. In case you missed it, I was discussing the problems that the PSP faced when trying to gain a foothold in the US market.


as well as the general, non- classic gaming public) most signs point to a pending Sony victory.

How can the "general, non- classic gaming public" have made signs pointing to a pending Sony victory already? Because EB and GameStop stopped taking preorders?

Do you realize that the same companies stopped taking preorders for the DS too? Or do you just think that it was only the "non-general, classic gaming public" that has managed to purchase well over one million consoles in the US?


But as you said, the war hasn't been won yet. We'll see.

Yes. I'm glad that you got this part of my post.

Even though you don't believe me, I promise you that I really don't have anything riding on who will win the "portable war" right now. I do think that it is crazy that Sony fanboys are claiming the PSP a victor already because of the fact that the DS has such a huge installed user base already. I see this as a situation not unlike the Genesis / SNES time. By the time Nintendo came into the market with the SNES, the Genesis had already become so well established that it was very hard for Nintendo to catch up in sales. Nintendo has already sold over one million consoles in the US. That is an incredible lead.

As I said before though, Nintendo still hasn't truly won because their software line up sucks right now. But if they can pull out some quality titles in time for the US launch of the PSP like Metroid, Mario Kart and Animal Crossing, I think it will be a huge uphill battle for the PSP in the States.

That is what I think. I think that both history and the "real world" tend to support that theory. If you want to get into how things work outside the US, I would happily amend my statement to say that the PSP is a great device for the Asian market, and I think it very well could outsell the DS long-term there. And probably in Europe too.

[petewhitley]

Do you understand at all how marketing companies do things? If 0.6% of the consoles had been returned due to problematic buttons before Sony announced they would replace broken ones, that's nice but something tells me the ultimate number will be higher.
Do I trust Sony that "only 0.6%" of the units suffer from this problem? So far, perhaps. Is it the entire pictures? Absolutely not. If you think otherwise, that's fine... but don't try to tell me that guessing that 1% of the units actually suffer from this problem and I can't question Sony's PR.

Question all you want, but that surely doesn't give you enough data to come up with your own numbers and develop complex theories of profit margins.


My gosh, are you really that out of it to see that I outlined the entire thing because 0.6% is not an insignificant number. And the fact is that you don't know how much Sony is or is not making off the PSP sales. Obviously, the hardware numbers aren't where Sony is going to make the majority of their money, but that has nothing to do with anything else.

But it has everything to do with your grand-theory of Sony losing money on the PSPs defects. It is a known fact in the gaming business that Sony is losing money on the PSP as a system, therefore rendering your theory meaningless and pointless.


I don't know how you think everyone in America is commuting everywhere. I bet that if we did a poll of the people that were out of High School, I would bet that at least 90% had a car. I would also assume that the percentage for having a car of people married with kids would be even higher.

You're ingoring people who have cars but still use alternative transportation, as well as people who use handheld devices when *gasp* not commuting, for a variety of reasons.



Past "gimmick" systems (Virtual Boy, Vectrex, a variety of failed control systems) have shown us that the public has little interest in "gimmicks", and instead prefers technologically-advanced, entertaining, original games (just another reason that Sony has won the current home system wars, they have simply offered more original gaming concepts not found on the GC).

I find your view to be "largely pete-centric." ... As for the gimmick deal, I stated it was a gimmick stick because in a very real way, it is. But it is also the part of the system that you cannot get with other systems. Why didn't the Virtual Boy succeed? It had a lot to do with the screen and what the system was and was not. The DS is a hell of a lot less of a gimmick than the Virtual Boy is, and is realistically portable. A direct comparison of the two is unfair.

Not at all unfair. Time and sales have consistently shown that gimmicky videogame controllers have failed. The DS has a gimmick of control as it's main selling point. Don't believe it? Then why is Nintendo insisting that it's not the direct successor to the GBA?


Last I checked on _all_ of those titles, they had no release dates. It is often that companies pull out the big guns at the launch of another console. Remember when the Dreamcast came out? So did Final Fantasy 8. Same day. I wouldn't be surprised to see some of those titles by then.

Yeah ... Nintendo is hiding the fact that alll those games are coming out in the next three weeks. As are the distributors and retailers who are planning on stocking them. Sure. Great coup, Big N x_x


It is a contender. And for the moment at least, it has the upper hand in the US market. Maybe that is "just" because the PSP hasn't come out yet

You think so Dr.?


I wasn't attacking Sony. I'll say it again. I wasn't attacking Sony.

No. You just have a history of rallying against them, and happen to own an online store that sells systems before and after the PS, yet does not carry any PS products. Gotcha.


Next time, read the argument before replying please. In case you missed it, I was discussing the problems that the PSP faced when trying to gain a foothold in the US market.

I read it completely, that's why I responded. I found that it was filled with factual inaccuracies and outright mistruths. As are most of your posts regarding the DS.


As I said before though, Nintendo still hasn't truly won because their software line up sucks right now. But if they can pull out some quality titles in time for the US launch of the PSP like Metroid, Mario Kart and Animal Crossing, I think it will be a huge uphill battle for the PSP in the States.


Go ahead and ask any major retailer, gaming journalist, or even Nintendo themselves. The chances of any one of those games hitting before the PSP launch is nill. Not so much of an uphill battle then, is it?

[goatdan]

Pete, you need to give up replying when you make no sense...


Question all you want, but that surely doesn't give you enough data to come up with your own numbers and develop complex theories of profit margins.

Right. So the 0.6% is absolute fact and I can't challenge it not can I "develop a complex theory of profit margin," which, by the way has NOTHING to do with the point that 0.6% IS an major number.

I hate people that argue like you because there is no way to even make sense with them since you are arguing points that have little and nothing to do with the point of the example. It would be like talking about how fast your car can go and me stating my car could go 120 MPH and you running in and complaining that I can't drive that fast because of the speed limit.

If you have a counterpoint to the "0.6% is a significant number" why don't you try to make it?


But it has everything to do with your grand-theory of Sony losing money on the PSPs defects. It is a known fact in the gaming business that Sony is losing money on the PSP as a system, therefore rendering your theory meaningless and pointless.

You're right! If Sony loses some money or if they lose a ton MORE money on a defect, it doesn't matter! Both ways, they lose money.

Trumpet it again Sony fanboy -- 0.6% doesn't matter! 0.6% is the highest the number could possibly be!

I don't believe you.

Oh hey, a real world example about how 0.6% matters -- at work, I had a bunch of computers that had a certain type of hard drive in it that were known to fail 0.5% of the time. Dell recalled all of the affected drives and replaced them with new drives because Dell felt that 0.5% was an unacceptable failure rate for a component necessary to the product.

And if you care to argue that a button isn't as important as a hard drive as many fanboys do, I'd wonder if you would accept a keyboard without the space bar working.


You're ingoring people who have cars but still use alternative transportation, as well as people who use handheld devices when *gasp* not commuting, for a variety of reasons.

Not if you read the original post, where I noted that most people would use handheld devices when at home. And you are seriously off your rocker if you think that the majority of American's commute to work using trains, planes and busses.


Not at all unfair. Time and sales have consistently shown that gimmicky videogame controllers have failed. The DS has a gimmick of control as it's main selling point. Don't believe it? Then why is Nintendo insisting that it's not the direct successor to the GBA?

Why don't you actually try bringing up some real examples? Not a console that was failing during the crash of 83 and one that didn't make sense to release at all. Seems that people have become rather used to using touch interfaces... PDAs, when you sign credit card things at most stores, etc.

I was the one who stated that the DS had a gimmick in my original post. Make a point for yourself that has to do with the actual topic, and stop dodging.


Yeah ... Nintendo is hiding the fact that alll those games are coming out in the next three weeks. As are the distributors and retailers who are planning on stocking them. Sure. Great coup, Big N x_x

You may be right, you may be wrong. It has been done before. I never claimed they would be out. I claimed they could be out.



It is a contender. And for the moment at least, it has the upper hand in the US market. Maybe that is "just" because the PSP hasn't come out yet

You think so Dr.?

Wow are you being a fanboy again. I said this because your claims are always that the only reason anyone purchased a DS is because the PSP wasn't out. That claim is INSANE. This was a sarcastic remark because you seem to think that one million consoles sold in a continent means nothing in the grand scheme of things.

I wish you could come back down to Earth, astronaut.


No. You just have a history of rallying against them, and happen to own an online store that sells systems before and after the PS, yet does not carry any PS products. Gotcha.

I have a history of rallying against them? Because I successfully pointed out in the thread where you claimed that the PSP was the obvious winner in Japan that ONE WEEK doesn't make a trend?

And just like in that conversation, to dodge the fact you don't have anything to refute the comments with, you bring up the GOAT Store again like it is somehow related. You know from a private message conversation that I had with you that it offends me that you are trying to make an absurd link to my "affiliation" and I will defend it. Since obviously you don't have any respect for me and you want to try to "hurt" the GOAT Store by making the other fanboys go elsewhere, I'll say this again:

The GOAT Store cannot compete on a price basis with Best Buy. Or any large chain store like Target, Circuit City or a slew of other places that still carry Playstation games. I'm not going to waste money on a business that I run as a hobby trying to "support" the Playstation, when I could lose it all because one of those stores decides to dump their product like Toys R Us did recently.

As I have also pointed out, the GOAT Store does not carry any portion of the Game Boy line up, or the Neo Geo Pocket as well as a variety of other products. And I'm a big Neo Geo Pocket collector.

Your point is completely stupid and off base, on top of the fact that it is yet another where you have nothing that relates to the conversation to say, so you try something unrelated that to someone mindless may make sense.

And after talking with you in private about all of this last time and explaining how not just was your claim against the GOAT Store baseless, but it also personally offends me, I've lost all respect for you. Get a life.


I read it completely, that's why I responded. I found that it was filled with factual inaccuracies and outright mistruths. As are most of your posts regarding the DS.

Yes. Shall I find an article by someone who quotes that if you don't own a DS it "sucks to be you" and then point to it to claim that Nintendo owns you? Another stupid dodging attempt. Shut up.


Go ahead and ask any major retailer, gaming journalist, or even Nintendo themselves. The chances of any one of those games hitting before the PSP launch is nill. Not so much of an uphill battle then, is it?

Yup. Even if none of those games comes out, the fact that one million consoles have been moved definitely means that Sony can stomp all over them.

As usual Pete, I think that I'll let everyone else decide what they want to about your "facts."

You complain that these boards are full of Nintendo-centric posts and that the truth isn't there, then leave. The people on these boards have a unique perspective of the industry because many of them follow the history of it. The fact that you are falling all over yourself to try to make it sound like the DS has no chance and is the great underdog is crazy when it has already sold over two million consoles worldwide in less than half a year.

On top of that, this last post by you has made all the difference in my opinion of you. Last time, you claimed yourself to be the "bigger man" because you walked away from the argument (again, that you had no points in and just dodged all the points that I made) and I made a post defending myself since you personally attacked me.

At least last time, I felt that you walked away with some integrity. Now I know for a fact that you have none. Please don't bother responding again. I don't need to hear anymore of your fanboy whinings, and I don't think anyone else does either. If you have relevant points, try making them for once in your life. If I have to reply to you next time, I'm going to cut everything that you dodged because I don't even try to reason with people I don't respect.

As that great piece of journalism says about the overwhelming demand among the general public for the PSP:


Sucks to be you.

[petewhitley]

At least last time, I felt that you walked away with some integrity. Now I know for a fact that you have none. Please don't bother responding again. I don't need to hear anymore of your fanboy whinings, and I don't think anyone else does either.

Wow. You're a big man Dan. Running away from a debate. I'm sure you loved it last time when I walked away, as I wouldn't be able to point out the numerous fallacies in everything you say. Paint me as a fanboy, paint me "stupid" (your own words in the post above). I'll come right out and call you an asshole, who can't seem to debate an issue without throwing down the gauntlet of insults and asking those who disagree to not post anymore. If what I have to say is whinings, at least I show some intelligence about the gaming industry, your posts reflect a general ignorance of not only gaming, but sales and marketing as well. I'll shut up Dan, when the ignorant (yourself included), stop spreading lies masked as truths across this board.

And just as the charge you've leveled against me in the past, your reply to me failed to counter or even argue what you quoted me as saying. You had a jolly time getting some great one-liners in, but you didn't actually come back and refute the charges I levied against you. I doubt you ever will, as they are valid critiques of a deeply flawed argument.

For anyone unfortunate enough to be reading this, here is an example of the type of B.S. Dan routinely spouts off about:

I have a history of rallying against them? Because I successfully pointed out in the thread where you claimed that the PSP was the obvious winner in Japan that ONE WEEK doesn't make a trend?
Ok. Now point your browser over HERE. (http://www.the-magicbox.com/gaming.htm) Take a look at Feb. 25ths news. It clearly shows that the PSP has outsold the DS in Japan, in 2005. Some 400,000 units to approx. 330,000 units. Dan here will tell you that isn't a trend. Sales in 2005 do not constitue a trend. I wish I could turn my brain off and read his posts without getting a little upset. I can't.

[scooterb23]

People who argue about videogames are funny.

[esquire]

People who argue about videogames are funny.

Just think, in all that time they spent arguing about video games, they could have been playing them instead. @_@

Even sadder is the fact that I wasted my time actually reading all that vitriol. :embarrassed:

[goatdan]

Wow. You're a big man Dan. Running away from a debate. I'm sure you loved it last time when I walked away, as I wouldn't be able to point out the numerous fallacies in everything you say. Paint me as a fanboy, paint me "stupid" (your own words in the post above). I'll come right out and call you an asshole, who can't seem to debate an issue without throwing down the gauntlet of insults and asking those who disagree to not post anymore.

Yes. Both times I had integrity. Both times I made points without insulting you. Last time you called me a fanboy. This time, you come out with something that we talked about in private messages after last time because it personally offends me. Yet you try to make me into the bad guy.


If what I have to say is whinings, at least I show some intelligence about the gaming industry, your posts reflect a general ignorance of not only gaming, but sales and marketing as well.

Yes, apparently I have no idea about the gaming industry, even though I have personal connections with some of the biggest companies in the US. And gaming in general? Shoot, no one must respect my opinions even though I've been paid to write reviews of things before. You're also right that I must have no idea about how sales and marketing in the US works... It isn't like I run a store or have organized and promoted a gaming event in the past.

Wow Pete, call me all the names that you want, but what have you done that makes you the expert? I don't claim this stuff often / ever because it doesn't really matter in conversations, but I don't think that you want to try discrediting me as most people here will laugh at you.


I'll shut up Dan, when the ignorant (yourself included), stop spreading lies masked as truths across this board.

And just as the charge you've leveled against me in the past, your reply to me failed to counter or even argue what you quoted me as saying. You had a jolly time getting some great one-liners in, but you didn't actually come back and refute the facts I presented. I doubt you ever will, as they are valid critiques of a deeply flawed argument.


For anyone unfortunate enough to be reading this, here is an example of the type of B.S. Dan routinely spouts off about:

I have a history of rallying against them? Because I successfully pointed out in the thread where you claimed that the PSP was the obvious winner in Japan that ONE WEEK doesn't make a trend?
Ok. Now point your browser over HERE. (http://www.the-magicbox.com/gaming.htm) Take a look at Feb. 25ths news. It clearly shows that the PSP has outsold the DS in Japan, in 2005. Some 400,000 units to approx. 330,000 units. Dan here will tell you that isn't a trend. Sales in 2005 do not constitue a trend.

Yes. That was the thread where you talked about how the one week that the PSP outsold the DS by a margin of nearly two to one was the nail in the coffin for the DS. That thread happened at the start of this month. Anyone with their brain on could tell you that one week is not a "trend." I stated in that thread that in a few weeks, you could decide if it was a trend or not.

Perhaps it is, but the numbers that you quote above still don't prove your point of the two to one sales ratio.


I wish I could turn my brain off and read his posts without getting a little upset. I can't.

Perhaps because when fanboys read facts, they get angry?

You dodged all of the arguments again, instead trying to point out how I had no credibility (which I think most people who know me well would tell you is laughable, at best) and that you "won" the debate from last time because the data since then kind of supported your position, which I at the time said that it very well could. What points did you have about this conversation? None.

As usual.

Quote your sources, "Sucks to be you."


Just think, in all that time they spent arguing about video games, they could have been playing them instead.

Heh, I've said this before... I actually find it more interesting to read about video game trends and watch the marketplace than I do playing them. I really enjoy reading two people intelligently post point / counterpoint arguments about certain aspects of the industry that have a lot to back them up.

I hate getting in arguments with people like Pete because they do not make counterpoints and instead make claims that have nothing to do with the argument at hand. Since I am interested by the facts, it annoys me when someone like Pete trys to skew them because if people were to believe him, it means that he would enter arguments claiming things were true and people would believe him.


Even sadder is the fact that I wasted my time actually reading all that vitriol.

Well, I'm not making you do that, but I hope that if you did decide to read it all you can see who actually came out making sense and who didn't have any points.

[esquire]

Just think, in all that time they spent arguing about video games, they could have been playing them instead.

Heh, I've said this before... I actually find it more interesting to read about video game trends and watch the marketplace than I do playing them. I really enjoy reading two people intelligently post point / counterpoint arguments about certain aspects of the industry that have a lot to back them up.

I hate getting in arguments with people like Pete because they do not make counterpoints and instead make claims that have nothing to do with the argument at hand. Since I am interested by the facts, it annoys me when someone like Pete trys to skew them because if people were to believe him, it means that he would enter arguments claiming things were true and people would believe him.


Even sadder is the fact that I wasted my time actually reading all that vitriol.

Well, I'm not making you do that, but I hope that if you did decide to read it all you can see who actually came out making sense and who didn't have any points.

Well, judging by my screenname, "esquire" which is a title given to lawyers, hint hint ;) , I hope you guessed my profession. As one versed in logic and reasoning, I can tell who made more sense. There is an old saying for lawyers. "If you have the law on your side, argue the law. If you have the facts on your side, argue the facts. If you have neither, rant and rave and jump up 'n down 'til you're blue in the face." :grumble:

[petewhitley]

Yes. That was the thread where you talked about how the one week that the PSP outsold the DS by a margin of nearly two to one was the nail in the coffin for the DS. That thread happened at the start of this month. Anyone with their brain on could tell you that one week is not a "trend." I stated in that thread that in a few weeks, you could decide if it was a trend or not.

Perhaps it is, but the numbers that you quote above still don't prove your point of the two to one sales ratio.

At the time of our discourse in that thread (~ Feb. 8th), the PSP had outsold the DS in Japan each of the previous five weeks of 2005. Not one week Dan. And now it's outsold the DS for the previous eight weeks of 2005. For a supposedly well-respected figure in this community, you sure have a funny way of BLATANTLY IGNORING facts. I'd be the one laughing if you only weren't so patronizing in your ignorance. Furthermore, it was you, not I, who claimed a two-to-one sales ratio, of the DS over the PSP. And I will prove that to all by offering your exact words from that previous thread, dated Feb. 8th:


As someone pointed out in a different thread, the DS is outselling the PSP in Japan by a rate of more than 2 DSes for every one PSP. That makes the PSP the underdog.

Lies, Dan, lies. At this point, having been proven wrong again, you've devolved into telling outright lies and blaming others for your missteps. Pity that.

[goatdan]

At the time of our discourse in that thread (~ Feb. 8th), the PSP had outsold the DS in Japan each of the previous five weeks of 2005. Not one week Dan.

Man, can you please check your facts? The DS outsold the PSP for the first two weeks of 2005 in Japan. The PSP outsold the DS for the next two weeks when that post was made.


And now it's outsold the DS for the previous eight weeks of 2005. For a supposedly well-respected figure in this community, you sure have a funny way of BLATANTLY IGNORING facts.

Amazingly, it seems as if you are the one ignoring the facts. I haven't even looked at the last four weeks of this year yet. Regardless, you're trying to argue a point that I stated in the last thread could very well be a fact. If you're trying to tell me that I ever said that the DS will always outsell the PSP, you're wrong.

And what does this have to do with the American launch of the PSP anyway? I don't get it?


I'd be the one laughing if you only weren't so patronizing in your ignorance. Furthermore, it was you, not I, who claimed a two-to-one sales ratio, of the DS over the PSP.

You cliamed that the PSP had been outselling the DS by a steady rate of nearly two to one. Which is untrue when you look at how many consoles have been sold to date.


And I will prove that to all by offering your exact words from that previous thread, dated Feb. 8th:


As someone pointed out in a different thread, the DS is outselling the PSP in Japan by a rate of more than 2 DSes for every one PSP. That makes the PSP the underdog.

Um... okay. So the DS has not outsold the PSP now? Or the 70,000 console gain that the PSP had made this year trumps the half million or so gain the DS had last year?

And what does this have to do with the American launch anyway?


Lies, Dan, lies. At this point, having been proven wrong again, you've devolved into telling outright lies and blaming others for your missteps. Pity that.

Proved wrong again?

What does any of your post have to do with the American launch of the console? Furthermore, you're trying to argue a trend with me after the fact, a point I never would or could argue. That would be like if you found a dug up a quote of mine stating that the Jaguar had a very good test market introduction, and based on that it could be really possible and then said that I obviously knew nothing because the Jaguar failed.

If you care to talk any more about the American launch of the console, I'll be ready for it. I expect I'll have another dodge reply next time where you tell me how I know nothing and my facts must be wrong.

To quote your best sources, "Sucks to be you."

[petewhitley]

You cliamed that the PSP had been outselling the DS by a steady rate of nearly two to one. Which is untrue when you look at how many consoles have been sold to date.

There you go again Dan. Your missrepresenting the facts (I hope, as opposed to just outright lying), as you're prone to do. Here's specifically what I said, in quotes:


Nintendo is viewed as the underdog because they're up against "big bad Sony." And you have your facts wrong. The DS, which went on sale before the PSP and without the hardware shortage suffered by Sony, has sold more overall units in Japan. The PSP is currently outselling the DS in Japan by a rate of NEARLY 2 PSPs for every one DS. And the PSP has sold more units in Japan in 2005 than the DS. Link is HERE.

When I posted that retort to your claim, the link I provided (which still works) clearly showed a nearly two-to-one ratio for the most recent period of sales. Your quote, which I will provide again here, was clearly untrue, then and now.


As someone pointed out in a different thread, the DS is outselling the PSP in Japan by a rate of more than 2 DSes for every one PSP. That makes the PSP the underdog.


What does any of your post have to do with the American launch of the console? Furthermore, you're trying to argue a trend with me after the fact, a point I never would or could argue ... If you care to talk any more about the American launch of the console, I'll be ready for it. I expect I'll have another dodge reply next time where you tell me how I know nothing and my facts must be wrong.

Because you're the one who's argued these points in the past Dan, and you're the one who drudged them up again in the context of this debate. The more times you drag it up, the more times I'm gonna have to knock you off your high horse by showing everyone that you're talking out of your ass. I'm not just telling you your facts are wrong and that you're blaming others for what you have said Dan, I'm proving it with links. You never link to sources, you never link to outside confirmation of what you espouse. Because it comes straight out of your ass Dan, without any basis in reality. Bring some FACTS to the table next time Dan, not opinions. It's increasingly hard to debate about this with you when you refuse to come prepared.

[njiska]

Look Dan and Pete i can see you too are starting to tear into one another so allow me to off this information to hopefully calm the fires.

While this information does come from Nintendorks, it is reliable and credible information.

From Nintendorks.com
This year, the PSP has sold 362,355 units in Japan as of February 13th, while the DS has sold 305,679. As you can see, the DS has sold less in 2005. The DS launched first, so it has less momentum now. On the other hand, it has had an opportunity to sell more, with 1,495,596 units picked up by consumers in 2004. Meanwhile, the PSP only moved 482,252 last year. Total, that makes 1,801,275 DS units compared to 844,607 PSP units.

That's not really fair, as the PSP hasn't been out as long, launching two weeks after the DS. To be fair, then, if we cut off the past two weeks' worth of DS sales (55,757), the new total figure is 1,745,518 DS units. That's about 900,000 units worth of difference. Call me an optimist, but I think that's pretty good, considering the DS' scrawny lineup thus far.

in short the PSP is out selling the DS in Japan this year, the DS has a larger installed base over all and to answer Dan's question this has absolutely fuck all to do with the god damn north american launch.

For a thread that i started because Sony had finally addmitted that the PSP sticky button was a problem, it sure has spiiraled out of control. Don't get me wrong i love the debate and i love arguements. But if you're gonna argue do it right. Dan has been presenting a really strong case the last few posts and he's clearly not a fan boy. But both Dan and Pete and others are getting a little personal in their attacks. So do me a favor and try to attack the issues instead of each other. You'll get better results.

[Phosphor Dot Fossils]

And with that, I think we've had about enough of this one. I just don't see the 'debate' going anywhere from here, given that the debaters are attacking each other and not the issues at hand.