Video Games -- A Girl Thing?

[Flack]

New article on CNET.com

http://news.com.com/Video+games--a+girl+thing/2008-1043_3-5618256.html?tag=nefd.lede

[soniko_karuto]

nice article. Btw, it does feel kinda feminist article too.

[mr_nihilism]

Feminism, equality..blah blah blah

[crazyjackcsa]

Hmmm 10% of attendees are women and suddenly gaming is a girl thing? Why won't a female play a male Character? Ladies, any answers? Interesting article, but it didn't really say anything.

[Queen Of The Felines]

Why won't a female play a male Character? Ladies, any answers?

For pretty much the same reason a male won't play a female character most of the time...identification purposes most likely.

However, I'm sure most of us that are really into gaming would just pick whichever character is the best.


Feminism, equality..blah blah blah

:bareass:

Kristine

[punkoffgirl]

Hmmm 10% of attendees are women and suddenly gaming is a girl thing? Why won't a female play a male Character? Ladies, any answers? Interesting article, but it didn't really say anything.

Why do you mean, "Why won't a female play a male Character?"
It wasn't all that long ago that if girls wanted to play games, all of characters were male, so we didn't have a choice. Even now, at least half of the playable female characters in games look like porn stars.

[davidleeroth]

Why won't a female play a male Character? Ladies, any answers?

For pretty much the same reason a male won't play a female character most of the time...identification purposes most likely.

If there's choice, I pick a female character every time. :-P

[hydr0x]

If there's choice, I pick a female character every
time.

same here, well, not every time, but often

if women want equality they should start using male characters without complaining, sure, there should be a 50/50 ratio of male and female characters used but women shouldn't always complain when they have to play male chars, men also do have to play female chars, or is there any man in here who wants to miss out on games like Space Channel 5, Beyond Good & Evil, Kya, Primal and a lot others... i guess not

[Lady Jaye]

Hmmm 10% of attendees are women and suddenly gaming is a girl thing? Why won't a female play a male Character? Ladies, any answers? Interesting article, but it didn't really say anything.

10%, or 1,000 women attending out of 10,000 attendants, that's not bad at all. It may not seem like a big number, but it's better than it seems at first.

Oh, and yes, I do play male characters when I don't have the choice or when the class of the female characters doesn't interest me (in RPGs, I like to play warriors rather than mages or archers... and women characters are often either sorceresses or archers - see Baldur's Gate: Dark Alliance as an example of this gender-based class selection).

And that's one of the elements I absolutely love about Neverwinter Nights. You have complete choice for your character. The choice of class is the same regardless of gender, you have different available portraits, clothing styles, faces, races... and even physical types. That's much better than the usual Barbie/porn-star selection offered to us women gamers.

[punkoffgirl]

If there's choice, I pick a female character every
time.

same here, well, not every time, but often

if women want equality they should start using male characters without complaining, sure, there should be a 50/50 ratio of male and female characters used but women shouldn't always complain when they have to play male chars, men also do have to play female chars, or is there any man in here who wants to miss out on games like Space Channel 5, Beyond Good & Evil, Kya, Primal and a lot others... i guess not

oh NO! And exactly what percentage do you think THAT is out of the total number of games released every year? Poor, poor oppressed guys. Give me a break, you're not going to get sympathy for that handful of games.

[squidblatt]

Some of you guys are missing the point. She was saying that female characters are too often designed with men in mind, so even when there is a choice, women are not likely to gravitate towards the female hero. In real life, these qualities are the physical signs that a women is ready for sex. For example, Ninja Gaiden's Rachel is the equivalent of a Ryu design with a massive erection. There are some characters that don't follow that convention, but a great many, if not most, do. I thought the article made some great points, and it had nothing to do wth feminism. Whenever women attempt to address issues concerning women, there's always a group of men who start bitching about feminism as if they ever bothered to learn the slightest fact about it. The article was a practical and pragmatic examination of how companies can better market their games towards females.

[Daria]

Hmmm 10% of attendees are women and suddenly gaming is a girl thing? Why won't a female play a male Character? Ladies, any answers? Interesting article, but it didn't really say anything.

Oh we will. Aftar all we've been playing male leads for 20 years, it's about time someone switched it up a bit though. :P

[vultar]

I play mainly console type RPGs, so for the most part I don't get a choice in the gender of my characters. In truth though, it doesn't really matter to me because I tend to pick characters based on their initial stats and whether or not I like the character design; acctually when given the choice, I'll choose non-human characters because I think they look more interesting. I really have never been one to think of myself as the main character. I will say, though, that when a game I'm playing has female characters, friend or foe, that look like hyper-porn stars, (unless it's played as a joke) it really bugs me, but again, I think that's mainly due to the fact that, to me, they don't look like they could do what thier supposed to be doing. I don't know, maybe high-heels and a mini bikini are keys to excellent swordsmanship.

[hydr0x]

If there's choice, I pick a female character every
time.

same here, well, not every time, but often

if women want equality they should start using male characters without complaining, sure, there should be a 50/50 ratio of male and female characters used but women shouldn't always complain when they have to play male chars, men also do have to play female chars, or is there any man in here who wants to miss out on games like Space Channel 5, Beyond Good & Evil, Kya, Primal and a lot others... i guess not

oh NO! And exactly what percentage do you think THAT is out of the total number of games released every year? Poor, poor oppressed guys. Give me a break, you're not going to get sympathy for that handful of games.

did you actually read my post? i said there should be far more female characters and i'd love that (and no, not because they are pretty or anything like that) i just said there is absolutely no reason to complain every time you have to play with an character of the opposite sexn all honesty, does it even matter? i don't give a shit what sex my char is, i wouldn't mind if 90% of the heros where heroines, that's what you have to realize, yes, there should be more female chars, but no, it doesn't make a game more or less fun if the hero is of a different sex, it doesn't even matter in the big majority of the games. maybe the only reason there are more male heroes is the fact that they have easier 3D models? i guess not, but still, it makes no difference to the game which sex the char has (unless it's part of the game!) so why complain about it every time.. i can understand you want more female chars, and i'd like the industry to do that, but i can't understand if you think "damn, why does it have to be a male hero again" every time you boot up a new game
ever noticed the majority of magazine covers are female? well, ever seen a guy complaining? no... LOL :hmm:

[bargora]

hydr0x, did you actually read the article? It seems that in general, women would rather play using a (non-porn-star) female avatar. The article is about attracting a larger female playerbase.

So what's the point about lecturing the female gamers in here that they ought to suck it up and play men characters? Oh, wait. They've already been doing that for years now.

It's like hearing that a study was done saying there aren't very many women beer drinkers because many women don't like the taste of beer. Then you post on a beer-drinker's board that, yes, beer should taste better, but you think that the (beer-drinking) women reading your post should just (keep) drink(ing) beer anyway. @_@

[DynastyLawyer]

Good article... The character generator in Star Wars Galaxies wasn't a victory for only women though. It was a victory for anybody who wanted an attention deficit disorder level of control over their character.

[levikalland]

I have a little sister about 16. she loves games wether they be male or female leads. after all its not about the characters these days as much as the story right?? I dont even play as many games that you see characters in. galaga was an all time favorite and who knows what could have been int he ship right?? No need to be offended by this but dont women normally have more avid social lives than men??? I know ythat when im playing a tournament of XIII at home i dont invite my sister, because then i have to hush my freinds behaviour and language, and lets face it If it werent for admins id be just as crass on these boards. But back tot he topic, until just recently women have not shown much interest in gaming until just recently, or they have not expressed it. All im saying is I have no problem playing a female character as it is just a game, not an expression of your personal sexuality.

[methuselah]

I've always wanted to play Helga in the non-existant Oblong's game myself:
https://netfiles.uiuc.edu/zuccarin/www/seth/home_helga.jpg

Let's face it, most American woman look like toads, we should let them play them in video games.

www.angusoblong.net

[Lady Jaye]

Hmm, as I've posted in another thread last week, actually, Pac-Man, Ms. Pac-Man and Centipede attracted their share of girls in the arcade back in the day, so it's not like overnight there was this new breed of humans called the girl gamer.

And as was pointed out before in this thread, the question is not whether there should be more female characters in games, but rather whether there should be a better variety of them. Y'know, more Samus Aran, and less sex kitten-ish characters (y'know the type: huge floating devices passing for breasts, very revealing clothes, not the practical stuff that a true kick-ass female character would wear if she were out to hack and slash her way...).

[levikalland]

ok so youre saying you want more realistic women in games. so then should guys in games be less fake?????? i forgot all us guys on here were gigantic muscle mases with secret powers and the ability to seduce any woman?? it will never be realistic, but thats half the fun, to be someone your not. videogames are an escape from reality, not an extension of it.

[Lady Jaye]

ok so youre saying you want more realistic women in games. so then should guys in games be less fake?????? i forgot all us guys on here were gigantic muscle mases with secret powers and the ability to seduce any woman?? it will never be realistic, but thats half the fun, to be someone your not. videogames are an escape from reality, not an extension of it.

Nope, just more variety, that's all. We don't get half the variety that you guys get.

See my post above for an example of a step in the right direction (that is, Neverwinter Nights).

[levikalland]

isnt variety by definition non gender based???theres tons of variety. if you want to change the world join the military or red cross or something. why doesnt barbie get a job and stop bishing at ken for everything?? why isnt there more variety in underwear for men?? since the dawn of time sexes have coexisted peacefully, then came the eternal question, Why????? in this case why are videogames gender based?? Lok back at your ancient myths and mythology and see, most of the worlds heroes have been men. games werent made for women originally as women are supposedly smarter and have better things to do.

[Promophile]

I'd rather not have a system like neverwinter nights. Nothing makes me dislike a game more than fully customizable characters. When I play a game I want my character to have a set look, personality, and story, and I don't want to have to worry about picking the wrong stats.

[Daria]

why isnt there more variety in underwear for men??

Wait.. you guys have briefs, boxer-briefs, boxers, and mankinis which all come in various prints and colors. There is variety in men's underpants.

And the rest of your post was too retarded for words so I skipped it.

[levikalland]

too retarded???that sounds like the backing down of an improperly stated argument??I guessto someone who is set int here mind on how things should be done it would seem retarded, i am willing to admit there arent many video game women that dont sport some admittidely risque oufits, but lets face it, how far are we here in america from dressing like that?? Your complaining about women being busty and half naked?? ohh wow i didnt realize it was so unrealistic of a portrayel of women. lets face it, in media, wether it be magazines, movies, tv, or games, everyone is portrayed much better looking than usual. take it with a grain of salt and realize there will never be realistic or even semi realistic characters in games or any other media. heros are someone you can look up to or admire, not someone you can identify with and be on the same level as. next time you post back to me please relize i enjoy reading mor than a handfull of non backed arguments with opinionated claims of retardation.

[john_soper]

This thread reminded me, aren't we coming up to the tenth anniversary of Tomb Raider? It can't be too far off.

[SuperNES]

mankinis

eww. i don't want to imagine that... :eek 2:

anyways i dont really care what gender my character is in a game, i just pick whichever one has the best stats, or if it's a game with customizable characters i make it look like me (male)

[bargora]

ok so youre saying you want more realistic women in games. so then should guys in games be less fake?????? i forgot all us guys on here were gigantic muscle mases with secret powers and the ability to seduce any woman?? it will never be realistic, but thats half the fun, to be someone your not. videogames are an escape from reality, not an extension of it.
levikalland, did you even read the article? The complaint is not simply that the female avatars are unrealistic, but rather that they are generally unrealistic in a way that shows that they are ready to get down and "do it" RIGHT NOW.

I suppose that an analogous situation might be if (almost) all male avatars were portrayed as homosexual stereotypes that were hungry for the act. In other words, if the only gender-appropriate avatars available in a game expressed sexual tendencies that are distracting and possibly distasteful in the view of the prospective gamer.

Please note that I do not intend to make any judgments about homosexuality. Period. I just suspect that if someone can't understand why women find the "sexpot avatars" offensive, maybe they'd also be the kind of person that would be aghast at the notion of only having the option in a game of selecting among a cast of homosexual avatars. I regard this as the "what if all games were Cho Aniki?" thought experiment.

[DynastyLawyer]

ok so youre saying you want more realistic women in games. so then should guys in games be less fake?????? i forgot all us guys on here were gigantic muscle mases with secret powers and the ability to seduce any woman?? it will never be realistic, but thats half the fun, to be someone your not. videogames are an escape from reality, not an extension of it.

Yeah, but having a semi-realistic landscape helps games tremendously, generally in terms of story. Girls that are overly sexified tend to make extremely poor videogame characters. I'll take Elly before Tifa any day, because Elly's a fucking human being, and Tifa is a piece of furniture. Likewise, no fucking game is going to stray from physics completely. It has to be grounded somewhere. Even Jumping Flash can't pounce over a building, man.


Lok back at your ancient myths and mythology and see, most of the worlds heroes have been men. games werent made for women originally as women are supposedly smarter and have better things to do.

AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! I appoint you best new poster. I shall watch your career with great interest.


i am willing to admit there arent many video game women that dont sport some admittidely risque oufits, but lets face it, how far are we here in america from dressing like that??

This was your best point.


lets face it, in media, wether it be magazines, movies, tv, or games, everyone is portrayed much better looking than usual. take it with a grain of salt and realize there will never be realistic or even semi realistic characters in games or any other media.

That doesn't make it an ideal situation to be in. I mean, I could be a slave working to the crack of a whip, and if someone tells me to "take it with a grain of salt" and that "it will never change" I'm gonna smash their face in.


heros are someone you can look up to or admire, not someone you can identify with and be on the same level as. next time you post back to me please relize i enjoy reading mor than a handfull of non backed arguments with opinionated claims of retardation.

Actually, they're a little bit of both, chief. Best new poster.

[methuselah]

Hey, let's be fair, we need a new Marvel Comics Rawhide Kid (http://archives.cnn.com/2002/SHOWBIZ/12/09/rawhide.kid.gay/) video game too.

Golly mister, that's a big gun, can I hold it? Sure son.

http://www.npr.org/programs/waitwait/archrndwn/2002/dec/021214.marvel.jpg

"Rollin rollin rollin, boy my ass is swollen, I've got a <heeyah!> rawhide!"

[mr_nihilism]

i am willing to admit there arent many video game women that dont sport some admittidely risque oufits, but lets face it, how far are we here in america from dressing like that?? Your complaining about women being busty and half naked?? ohh wow i didnt realize it was so unrealistic of a portrayel of women.

It's not very unrealistic at all. Many woman dress provocatively. And I'm guessing that the majority of such are in their teens and early 20's. Which is probably the target group for games anyways. But hey, we promise to look beyond the skimpy outfits and respect these digital characters for their minds as well. Honost!


he complaint is not simply that the female avatars are unrealistic, but rather that they are generally unrealistic in a way that shows that they are ready to get down and "do it" RIGHT NOW.

Just as in the real world....

[bargora]

i am willing to admit there arent many video game women that dont sport some admittidely risque oufits, but lets face it, how far are we here in america from dressing like that?? Your complaining about women being busty and half naked?? ohh wow i didnt realize it was so unrealistic of a portrayel of women.
It's not very unrealistic at all. Many woman dress provocatively. And I'm guessing that the majority of such are in their teens and early 20's. Which is probably the target group for games anyways. But hey, we promise to look beyond the skimpy outfits and respect these digital characters for their minds as well. Honost!

the complaint is not simply that the female avatars are unrealistic, but rather that they are generally unrealistic in a way that shows that they are ready to get down and "do it" RIGHT NOW.
Just as in the real world....
Hey man, nice troll.

[Promophile]

i am willing to admit there arent many video game women that dont sport some admittidely risque oufits, but lets face it, how far are we here in america from dressing like that?? Your complaining about women being busty and half naked?? ohh wow i didnt realize it was so unrealistic of a portrayel of women.
It's not very unrealistic at all. Many woman dress provocatively. And I'm guessing that the majority of such are in their teens and early 20's. Which is probably the target group for games anyways. But hey, we promise to look beyond the skimpy outfits and respect these digital characters for their minds as well. Honost!

the complaint is not simply that the female avatars are unrealistic, but rather that they are generally unrealistic in a way that shows that they are ready to get down and "do it" RIGHT NOW.
Just as in the real world....
Hey man, nice troll.

sorry but someone having a different opinion than the PC majority isn't trolling. All I have to say on the subject is what do you expect. Videogaming is dominated by young men. Companies want to sell their games and make money. Is it not logical that they therefore make the females portrayed in these games "sexy"? Have you ever seen a romance movie \ novel where the girls main love interest is some nerdy looking computer programmer? Hell no. Do they make the males in video games any more realistic? saying that making girl characters sexy is the same as making the male characters horny homosexuals is comparing apples to oranges. I have to ask you, what exactly are you expecting? Fugly girls with snaggle teeth? There are lots of games with female characters who, while not exactly "ugly", aren't beautiful / don't dress sexy. I'm sorry if it makes me a "pig" but if I'm going to be playing a game for 20 hours I'd rather have to look at attractive female character rather than ugly crones.

[Kroogah]

sorry but someone having a different opinion than the PC majority isn't trolling. All I have to say on the subject is what do you expect. Videogaming is dominated by young men. Companies want to sell their games and make money. Is it not logical that they therefore make the females portrayed in these games "sexy"? Have you ever seen a romance movie \ novel where the girls main love interest is some nerdy looking computer programmer? Hell no. Do they make the males in video games any more realistic? saying that making girl characters sexy is the same as making the male characters horny homosexuals is comparing apples to oranges. I have to ask you, what exactly are you expecting? Fugly girls with snaggle teeth? There are lots of games with female characters who, while not exactly "ugly", aren't beautiful / don't dress sexy. I'm sorry if it makes me a "pig" but if I'm going to be playing a game for 20 hours I'd rather have to look attractive female character rather than ugly crones.

So when girl gamers complain, your answer is "Video games aren't for you"?

[Promophile]

My response is "video games aren't targeted at you". If I suddenly started reading romance novels I wouldn't expect realistic portrayals of men.

[bargora]

Promophile, did you even read the article? The complaint is not that "sexy lady" avatars exist. It's that in most games there are only sexy lady avatars, and so maybe it would be cool if there were, oh, say, maybe at least one female non-sexy-lady avatar available to play.

Or would that offend you? Would your eyes burn?


My response is "video games aren't targeted at you". If I suddenly started reading romance novels I wouldn't expect realistic portrayals of men.
That's funny. I thought that video game companies wouldn't mind if women would give them money in exchange for their video games.

BTW, thank you for using the straw man "OMG teh PC police are out to get us" argument. My shot glass awaits the inevitable invocation of a certain mid-20th century political party.

[Queen Of The Felines]

why doesnt barbie get a job and stop bishing at ken for everything??

Have you not been in a Toys R Us lately? Barbie's been everything from a doctor to a freakin' astronaut.


since the dawn of time sexes have coexisted peacefully

Yeah, those slave girls, witch hunts, dowrys, and murder of female infants really shows how peaceful everyone was. Oh, and have you been reading about what happens when a woman gets raped in some Muslim areas?


games werent made for women originally as women are supposedly smarter and have better things to do.

Like make babies and cook your dinner? :roll:

Daria's right, you ARE retarded.

Kristine

[Promophile]

Promophile, did you even read the article? The complaint is not that "sexy lady" avatars exist. It's that in most games there are only sexy lady avatars, and so maybe it would be cool if there were, oh, say, maybe at least one female non-sexy-lady avatar available to play.

Or would that offend you? Would your eyes burn?




I used to play Everquest alot. Of all the female players I knew 99 percent of them chose the"sexiest" looking female races in the game. I could count on one hand the number of female trolls (fugly), ogres (fugly) and humans (pretty average looking) I saw that were played by female gamers (and before you say anything I've met most of these girls in real life, they were my guildmates). Every "create your character" game I've played in the last 5 years has at least given you the ability to make an average, if not ugly looking, female character, and I think thats the way it should be. Thanks for the personal attack but no, It wouldn't make my eyes burn to see ugly female characters, but that doesn't mean I would prefer it. If you would like staring at ugly girls for 20-100 hours you have some problems.


That's funny. I thought that video game companies wouldn't mind if women would give them money in exchange for their video games.

First I would like to say that I'm talking about games with premade characters. I think that all games containing female character creation should have good variety in the phsyical features you can chose. That having been said why would game companies hurt game sales by toning down their "sexy" female characters? I can tell you right now that DoA:XBV didn't sell as well as it did because it's such a darn good volleyball game. Sex sells (to men). Hollywood knows it and so do game developers. companies aren't going to change that to appease a small minority of video game purchasers.

[Queen Of The Felines]

If you would like staring at ugly girls for 20-100 hours you have some problems.

I think he'd be playing the game, not jerking off to it, so it wouldn't matter to him. :P

Kristine

[Kroogah]

It wouldn't make my eyes burn to see ugly female characters, but that doesn't mean I would prefer it. If you would like staring at ugly girls for 20-100 hours you have some problems.

More realistic =/= Ugly.

[mr_nihilism]

If I suddenly started reading romance novels I wouldn't expect realistic portrayals of men.

Seriously, why is it that men don't seem to complain about such things, yet women are quick to do so?

I mean if I were to ask my male buddies what they thihk about the portrayal of men in novels or in games, well, they will probably say little. Perhaps even shrug as if to say "who cares?"

[Promophile]

Internet crashed reposting this.

[bargora]

Yes, Promophile, it is good that some games allow customization. And I will not dispute your point that many women who already play video games choose to use attractive, perhaps even unrealistically attractive avatars.

But the point of the article is that to attract new women gamers (you know, the ones who don't like video games because maybe they aren't comfortable with the usual current array of pre-made sexy-lady avatars),

maybe it would be cool if there were, oh, say, maybe at least one female non-sexy-lady avatar available to play.
As far as I can tell, you are saying:

1) There should not be any non-sexy-lady female avatars available in games that do not allow avatar appearance customization, because
2) you wouldn't want to have to look at a non-sexy-lady female avatar for any period of time, and
3) to hell with any women who might otherwise play video games but don't because they are put off by the current selection of sexpot-only female avatars in most games featuring non-customizable avatars (i.e., most console games), because
4) you don't care whether the market for video games grows or not.

In other words, in your world, ALL VIDEO GAME WOMEN OUGHT TO BE HOT.

Since you seem to be missing the point, I AM NOT SAYING THAT WE NEED TO ELIMINATE THE SEXY-LADY-AVATARS. Nor am I saying that you must look at the non-sexy-lady avatars, or that non-sexy-lady avatars must be, to use your word, "fugly", or that you should enjoy looking at ugly things.

If you feel personally attacked, it is only because it seems to me that you are being purposefully obtuse.

[Lady Jaye]

Oh well, I guess then I shall never play a Mario game again, because you know, Mario doesn't correspond to the typical male sex model. :roll: Maybe we should ask Nintendo that they replace Mario, Luigi and Wario by Castlevania male characters.

Heck, let's bring this one step further! Let's ask G4 to have a male virtual model contest! Between the Castlevania characters and the RE4 main character and the last couple of Final Fantasies, just to name a few, there's oughta be enough entries!

[Phosphor Dot Fossils]

Sheesh. Reading this thread has made me long for the intellectual cleansing power of Strawberry Shortcake on the 2600. And that's all I'm gonna say. :P

Oh, and whoever says games aren't for girls has never seen my wife play Master Of Orion 2 or Star Control 2. That is all.

[Atar1G1rl]

why doesnt barbie get a job and stop bishing at ken for everything??

Have you not been in a Toys R Us lately? Barbie's been everything from a doctor to a freakin' astronaut.

Kristine

OK, this is driving me nuts. Barbie dumped Ken over a year ago. (http://www.cnn.com/2004/US/02/12/offbeat.barbie.breakup.ap/) Geesh!

[le geek]

Looks like a may be too late to add some discussion but who knows...

If you go to another article...
http://www.gamespot.com/news/2005/03/14/news_6120413.html


GS: Have female characters in games changed over time?

SGR: That's something we're working on. I expect we'll see it change, because that's something I've been screaming and hollering about the loudest. I'm going to speak specifically about avatars, because avatars are what we ask our player to identify with. The avatar is the representation of the player in the virtual environment. So this is going to be you.

Now, every time I talk about avatars, I get a lot of push back. They say, "We exaggerate male characters just like we do female characters; you girls are just too sensitive." That's true in some ways, and it's not true in some ways. What's true is, because we want that avatar to represent us, and we want to be the hero of the story, we want that avatar to be a hero. There are certain physical traits that we equate with being a hero. We expect our heroes to be young, we expect them to be strong, and we expect them to be either virile or fertile.

There actually are physiological signals that say this. We know that, for males, those signals are broad shoulders, narrow waist, slim hips, large arms, large legs, and long, thick hair. For females, those signals are large breasts, placed high on the chest cavity, slender waist, round derriere, and long, thick, flowing hair. We exaggerate those traits [for both genders].

What we do differently with our female characters is we add an additional layer of exaggeration. We exaggerate those traits that say, "I'm ready for sex right now." When the human body is ready for sex, there's a blood rush to the face, we see a reddening and a thickening of the lips, we see a thickening of the eyelids--resulting in that heavy, bedroom-eye kind of look--we see an open mouth with an increased respiration rate, and erect nipples. What we do with our female characters is exaggerate those. And then we dress her to emphasize those traits.

Males exhibit exactly the same traits--with one notable addition--when they are ready for sex.

GS: One you probably can't put in a video game.

SGR: It would be funny if we did! But we don't exaggerate them on the male, do we? So what we do is put a character in the game that says, "I'm ready for sex," all the time, and we ask our female players to be that person. And then we wonder why she gets come-ons from the other males. Of course guys are going to respond to that. And we give her no choice. We force her to be viewed that way, and to display these traits at all times.

There's no male player I'm aware of that would be comfortable with a male character that was displaying these traits. So bringing this awareness to our artists and developers is one of my mini-crusades. To understand what we do with our female characters compared to our male characters, and what we can do to increase the comfort level for our female players when you give them avatar characters to play. Don't hypersexualize them, but make them young, make them strong, make them fertile.

[calthaer]

The problem with her attitude has nothing to do with gender this or that and everything with the fact that nobody wants to consider that games, like just about every other medium, have predilections or "biases" towards certain types of content (see Marshal McLuhan and stuff like "The Medium is the Message"). That content may or may not be of interest to the majority of the female persuasion - it may not simply be a matter of doing more thinking and research on the subject of "how can we make games that women want to play." Maybe - in general - women want to socialize with other people rather than swing digital swords or shoot virtual guns. Maybe a chat room is a more interesting "game" than Mario Bros. for them.

The idea that media are neutral vehicles for ideas is something that they're glossing right over when it should be the start of their conversation.

[methuselah]

SGR: It would be funny if we did! But we don't exaggerate them on the male, do we? So what we do is put a character in the game that says, "I'm ready for sex," all the time, and we ask our female players to be that person. And then we wonder why she gets come-ons from the other males. Of course guys are going to respond to that. And we give her no choice. We force her to be viewed that way, and to display these traits at all times.

There's no male player I'm aware of that would be comfortable with a male character that was displaying these traits.


Leisure Suit Larry would fit the bill I think ;)

[Daria]

heros are someone you can look up to or admire, not someone you can identify with and be on the same level as.

Right... sorry nope. Don't look up to whores. As for being on their level? I like to think I've above the level of the average lonely man's fantasy.

[E Nice]

It also sounds like some of it can be jealousy over appearance.

[Daria]

Why does non revealing clothing automatically equate to ugly? A woman doesn't have to have huge tits and a thong up to her shoulder blades to be attractive. And if she does you're in for some serious fucking disapointment in your personal lives.

Personally I don't always mind the sexy avatar. In fact concerning some characters the role fits them perfectly. Angela from Sekien Densetsu 3 or Dias/Bleu from Breath of Fire are two characters I absolutely adore.

But playing those characters is my descion, I want the choice not to if I prefer it. There's no reason the market has to cater to the average teenage male with a chronic conditon of blue balls, and wasn't that the whole point of the article? To attract female gamers who don't want to put up with your sterotypical bullshit?

In closing any boy who has the nerve to sit there and tell me that I have to play a bimbo because that's just the way things are and that I have to get used to it can go fuck himself.

[soniko_karuto]

In closing any boy who has the nerve to sit there and tell me that I have to play a bimbo because that's just the way things are and that I have to get used to it can go fuck himself.

Sorry to dissapoint you, and sorry to be so direct, but if you see it that way, then you are no better than them. Do the usual, you don't like something, don't do it.

[Daria]

In closing any boy who has the nerve to sit there and tell me that I have to play a bimbo because that's just the way things are and that I have to get used to it can go fuck himself.

Sorry to dissapoint you, and sorry to be so direct, but if you see it that way, then you are no better than them. Do the usual, you don't like something, don't do it.

Do what? Swear? o.O

[Promophile]

I lost my internet for like the last 6 hours which is why my last post was screwed up. Anyways, back to what I was saying. I would rather play a game with "hot" or "cute" characters than one with fugly characters. Some people seem to take that to mean that what I'm saying is that if a game doesn't contain "hot girls" (the definition of this is debatable) I won't play it, which I didn't mean at all. All I was trying to say was that the majority of gamers want good looking characters, and thats what the game companies are delivering. It's kinda like a researcher stating that black kids score lower on standardized tests being labeled a racist. I'm just saying how it is, not how I WANT it to be. Calthaer hit the nail on the head. Like it or not, games are NOT a neutral medium, it panders almost totally towards males, especially in the US (In Japan female versions of Harvest Moon are actually good sellers).

[Promophile]

The problem with her attitude has nothing to do with gender this or that and everything with the fact that nobody wants to consider that games, like just about every other medium, have predilections or "biases" towards certain types of content (see Marshal McLuhan and stuff like "The Medium is the Message"). That content may or may not be of interest to the majority of the female persuasion - it may not simply be a matter of doing more thinking and research on the subject of "how can we make games that women want to play." Maybe - in general - women want to socialize with other people rather than swing digital swords or shoot virtual guns. Maybe a chat room is a more interesting "game" than Mario Bros. for them.

The idea that media are neutral vehicles for ideas is something that they're glossing right over when it should be the start of their conversation.

Very succulently put. I totally agree with everything that you've said. Not to go on a rant or anything but these days everything has to be equal without bias in order to be PC. Some things are just naturally biased yet some people refuse to aknowledge that.

[DDCecil]

This thread reminded me, aren't we coming up to the tenth anniversary of Tomb Raider? It can't be too far off.

Pfft Forget Lara Croft, Time Gal (Real name Layka or Reika) turns 20 this year! She may have skimpier clothes than some heroines, but she is a smart scientist (It says so right in the manual).

[soniko_karuto]

the fault of all these stupid feminist rants about games, is of mattel and their barbie games. I mean, every girl that played that p.o.s., got scared and very much bored, and say to hell with nintendo(that's what video games where called when they got their second air).

[hydr0x]

i'm not going to reply on anything said in this thread as both sides are using absolutely ridiculous argumentation (yes, BOTH sides)

i'd just like to add to points to think about

- does anyone really think more girls will game just because there are more average-looking chars? come on, where do you live, the target group would be 12-25 years old, have you looked at that age group recently, they are not far away from dressing like the game characters (and if you're calling the chars "whores" @Daria, then you're calling a lot of real women that way!)

- why do women always complain whenever there's something where there are more men than women?? i just don't get it, no man would ever complain about there being more women in a lot of fields of our life. If you want equality, live equality, and stop bitching about every little thing where the female rate is under 50%, it's never going to be 50/50 in everything, because interests differ!

[hydr0x]

But playing those characters is my descion, I want the choice not to if I prefer it.

i ask you this, do you really think men have any choice?? the vast majority of male characters is also your typical trained handsome sexy guy, and that's more away from reality than the female chars, just look at the reality and see what the avarage american man looks like, and you'll hopefully realize we are not better off than the girls are, we are just not complaining all the time...

[soniko_karuto]

hydr0x just reminded me of what happened a while ago over here. Women started acting very feminist and went to the goverment. They started swearing and were threatening to take their clothes off in sign of protest. So we just waited :evil:

So they got the idea, and started throwing rocks and stuff. Then the mob control kicked in, and they fought back. Guess who lose and who was complaining about brutality against females.

[GarrettCRW]

Gee, this reminds me of some of the comments on the Women in Refrigerators website by men in the comic industry-absolute cluelessness as to just why the status quo was so patently offensive to women. And, like the comic book industry, the video game industry shall soon find that they need to evolve past this sensibility-or die.

[soniko_karuto]

Gee, this reminds me of some of the comments on the Women in Refrigerators website by men in the comic industry-absolute cluelessness as to just why the status quo was so patently offensive to women. And, like the comic book industry, the video game industry shall soon find that they need to evolve past this sensibility-or die.

google told me this http://www.the-pantheon.net/wir/women.html

[Promophile]

Gee, this reminds me of some of the comments on the Women in Refrigerators website by men in the comic industry-absolute cluelessness as to just why the status quo was so patently offensive to women. And, like the comic book industry, the video game industry shall soon find that they need to evolve past this sensibility-or die.

You sure about that? to use my oft-cited example, romance novels and soap operas cater almost exclusively to females yet both of them show no signs of decline. Not every single form of media is gender neutral, and some just CANNOT be gender neutral in the real world. Game sales are reaching record highs each year. What the companies are doing now seems to be right, at least as far as the sale figures go. Games have been targeted at girls for decades and most of the attempts have been faliures. Is that because the games were bad or because the average girl doesn't want to sit in a dark room alone playing games? Research has shown that girls are MUCH more likely to play online games than offline ones. I could go on forever about the fundamental differences and traits of the sexes but to wrap it up I would just like to say that the game industry can and will survive and, yes, thrive without tapping the female gaming market.

Now if you'll excuse me I think I'm going to go complain on some soap opera message board about how every male character in soap operas is a handsome genius millionare who takes his shirt off every 10 minutes.

[digitalpress]

Very succulently put.

*giggle*

[squidblatt]

Nowhere in the article does anyone say that there needs to be more average women characters. As someone already quoted, she explicitly says that women gamers enjoy playing the young, sexy hero. She also says that the personification of a teenager's wetdream is not going to have the same impact on a girl as it would on a boy. The physical signs of sexual readiness in females are inherently suited to attract male attention, but are a turn-off for women.

She also says that male characters are also exaggerrated; they just don't present the biological signs of sexual readiness that the female designs do. Again, Sam Fisher is exaggerrated, but you don't see him sneaking around with a throbbing erection. That's the difference according to the article.

It may be true that females are just not attracted to the medium to the same degree as males, but from a marketing perspective, that is not a practical position. However much women may be wired differently, there is more than enough evidence that the female market has potential. All this woman is saying is that companies don't need to worry so much about finding the right concept as they do making their current designs more welcoming. What is so PC about that?

[punkoffgirl]

Nowhere in the article does anyone say that there needs to be more average women characters. As someone already quoted, she explicitly says that women gamers enjoy playing the young, sexy hero. She also says that the personification of a teenager's wetdream is not going to have the same impact on a girl as it would on a boy. The physical signs of sexual readiness in females are inherently suited to attract male attention, but are a turn-off for women.

She also says that male characters are also exaggerrated; they just don't present the biological signs of sexual readiness that the female designs do. Again, Sam Fisher is exaggerrated, but you don't see him sneaking around with a throbbing erection. That's the difference according to the article.

It may be true that females are just not attracted to the medium to the same degree as males, but from a marketing perspective, that is not a practical position. However much women may be wired differently, there is more than enough evidence that the female market has potential. All this woman is saying is that companies don't need to worry so much about finding the right concept as they do making their current designs more welcoming. What is so PC about that?

I like you :) Please, stick around!

[methuselah]

Why don't you guys pick apart a successful example of a successful cross-gender game?

The most successful title I can think of that has brought in a significant new audience of female gamers is Dance Dance Revolution.

Discuss.

[mr_nihilism]

I'm sure to sound like a jerk, but frankly, until women make up a significant percentage of overall gamers, I don't see very much changing unless males decide to actually listen to these complaints and start clamoring for less "sexed-up" characters as well.

What is the actual percentage of girl gamers out there? And out of that how many are actually offended by the ultra-sexy look of these avatars? As far as the second question goes, I'm guessing not that many.

Whatever. Things will change eventually. Just don't hold your breath waiting for it to happen.













.

[Sniderman]

Why don't you guys pick apart a successful example of a successful cross-gender game?

The most successful title I can think of that has brought in a significant new audience of female gamers is Dance Dance Revolution.

Christ...
http://tinypic.com/29625v
http://tinypic.com/2962a0
http://tinypic.com/2962ck
Welcome to 1980. And these games single-handedly brought scores of - ugh - wimmenz into our He Man Woman Haterz Arcades.
:roll:

[Lady Jaye]

...not to mention the grande dame of videogames:

http://www.flatbatteries.dsl.pipex.com/opinions/pixelchick/mspac.gif

[Sniderman]

...not to mention the grande dame of videogames:

http://www.flatbatteries.dsl.pipex.com/opinions/pixelchick/mspac.gif

And she did as well - if not better - than her male counterpart, as I recall.

[methuselah]

What I am suggesting is that the discussion focus on what made a game successful for the female audience, not arguing about what is frustrating to the female audience in current games.

I have no experience with the 80's arcade generation, but I have seen time and time again the success of DDR in the arcades and at home. Discuss whatever games you want, but what would be constructive in this thread is for the girl gamers to pin down *exactly* what they found compelling in specific video games, and why that may differ from what boy gamers may found compelling in the *same* title.

Additionally, there is the issue of getting the girl gamer's interest in the first place. The article mentioned that Warcraft was very successful but was uninteresting until it had been played. What about a successful cross-gender game initially drew in the female audience? For Ms. PacMan I think it is clear (assuming it was a cross-gender success as someone suggested), but what about the last decade of games that have shaped the mold of gaming today?

[SpasticFuctard]

I'm sure to sound like a jerk, but frankly, until women make up a significant percentage of overall gamers, I don't see very much changing unless males decide to actually listen to these complaints and start clamoring for less "sexed-up" characters as well.

What is the actual percentage of girl gamers out there? And out of that how many are actually offended by the ultra-sexy look of these avatars? As far as the second question goes, I'm guessing not that many.

Whatever. Things will change eventually. Just don't hold your breath waiting for it to happen.

Allow me to be the first to invite you to bleed to death rectally after your remove your head from your colon. You are a stain upon humanity and I will endeavor to enlighten you as to why:

The point of the article, and of this woman's 20 year crusade is to bring women into the fold. To make them gamers among us; To give you conversation topics with the other gender. I know that while your /\/\4]) displays of ub3r micro have gotten you laid tons of time, and you have actually wallpapered your home in the phone numbers of the nearly nude writhing forms of your past conquests, some of the gamer community would quite like to have a discussion with the ladies about their favorite past time.

Tell me, does your gluteus make good earmuffs?

Tell me this also: What makes you think any rational person wants to hear your misanthropy espoused as a viable economic strategy?

SF - OMFG, STFU NOOB!

[mr_nihilism]

I know that while your /\/\4]) displays of ub3r micro have gotten you laid tons of time, and you have actually wallpapered your home in the phone numbers of the nearly nude writhing forms of your past conquests

I'm sure that was supposed to be extremely witty, but since you refrained from using actual English in part of that sentence, I'm not really sure what you're getting at. Something about getting laid...blah blah blah. Believe it or not, I'm married and have a six month old child.

Anyways, thanks for contributing to the thread. No wait, you didn't. All you did is bash me. But hey, you really put me in my place.


Tell me this also: What makes you think any rational person wants to hear your misanthropy espoused as a viable economic strategy?

What? Compared to the nonsense that you just spewed out? Get real.