Could a game like Tempest 2000 be a hit today?

[goatdan]

I've been playing my way through Tempest X3, and I went to read some reviews of it online. Granted, I realize it came out after the much superior Jaguar version (superior from a gameplay standpoint), but X3 is an excellent game in its own right, and had Tempest 2000 not have come out on the Jaguar, X3 would have been in my top five of all time probably.

But Tempest X3 isn't a popular game. In fact, GameSpot gave it a 3 out of 10 in reviews. That is a far cry different than the Jaguar version, which was called the Jaguar's killer app for the longest time.

Robotron was another update that was done recently, with Robotron X and Robotron 64 both being pretty true-to-their-roots in the way of gameplay, but both of them were passed over by the majority of magazine reviews as games that just weren't worthwhile of a purchase.

Is the day of the arcade style game over? As much as I enjoy my Xbox and GameCube, they don't have any updates that had as much care put into them as Tempest 2000 or Robotron 64 did. Is the day of arcade-like experiences only going to be lived on through Museum and Compilation discs? If so, why do you think this occurred? Tempest 2000 was quite the hit and it got a lot of attention. Did the failures of Hasbro/Atari to convert Centipede, Pong and Missile Command in an interesting way put an end to all updates?

I hope not, but I think the industry is headed in that direction. Are there any other really great updates to classic games -- that maintain and enhance the original gameplay style, not replace it -- that perhaps I'm missing?

[it290]

Well, shooters are doing fairly well. Not mainstream, but there are enough of them being released. As for updates to classic games, Raiden III is out in Japan already. Hopefully it will get a good port.

[Graham Mitchell]

If they made arcade-style games with tons of titties and dismembered body parts flying everywhere (like Hunter: the Reckoning, though there's no tits in that game really) it'd be a hit. I don't think the mainstream public and the high school kids want to buy games because they're fun anymore. They want to buy them because they're an opportunity to do dispicable things. This is just my opinion, however.

[Phosphor Dot Fossils]

You're askin' the wrong guy, Dan. Tempest X3, Crazy Climber 2000, the new version of Q*Bert from a few years back...I love all that stuff. So...it's very popular. With me.

Sadly, major game developers seem to have lost sight of the Earl demographic in recent years. I predict it will be their downfall.




P.S. I should actually point out that I really didn't like Robotron X. But again, that's probably just me too.

[squidblatt]

The retro-collections must be doing fairly well since there are so many being released, but then they are extremely cheap to begin with. It's hard to update an old arcade license because the temptation to change the gameplay is so strong; you either have to reinvent it entirely or have faith in a concept developed on decades old technology. The examples you cited are successful instances where this faith was rewarded. But what usually happens is that the games are reinvented as mediocre titles that are not true to the source and not up to the standards of the current competition, like the remakes of Spyhunter and Defender. If titles like the Metal Slug series, Ikaruga, and all the 2D fighters are doing well enough, than I'd say that there is still room in the market for the old arcade titles, but I don't see the license owners spending money updating them as long as they keep trying to come up with the next GTA clone. At most, they will try to cash in on name recognition like Midway recently did with Narc.

[YoshiM]

Is arcade-style gaming over? I think the concept is still alive. it290 brought up a good point with SHMUPs and we're still getting games like Spikeout, which is essentially a 3D "sequel" of Streets of Rage. One can also look at games like EA's "Street" series which have most of the criteria of what can make a game "arcade like".

However, you seem to be wondering about classic remakes. Developers/publishers are trying to balance on a line between attracting current gen gamers and keeping the interest of old school gamers (which typically have larger wallets) with nostalgia. Most of the time it seems either they get it "wrong" (the game as a whole suffers and neither camp likes it) or it stays pretty close to the source but current gen media and gamers snub the title because it doesn't adhere to the trend of current gaming (which I believe was the case with Tempest X3 and Robotron 64). Of course I'm not saying modern gamers don't know what good gaming is, it's just that there's a generation difference and these close remakes for their Cube/Xbox/PS2 doesn't do anything for them, especially if it's only one title per disc (like Pong for PSX, for example).

[TEXASGAMEPLAYER]

QUOTE it290

Well, shooters are doing fairly well. Not mainstream, but there are enough of them being released. As for updates to classic games, Raiden III is out in Japan already. Hopefully it will get a good port.



well I for one would to know of some new shooters in america. I think my collection is almost complete from nes to ps2 and the only new shooters to my knowledge are the "r-tpye final" and "gradius 5". And I just found out about 1".gekioh" 2."shooter spaceshot" and bought them for the ps1

[zmweasel]

I've been playing my way through Tempest X3, and I went to read some reviews of it online. Granted, I realize it came out after the much superior Jaguar version (superior from a gameplay standpoint), but X3 is an excellent game in its own right, and had Tempest 2000 not have come out on the Jaguar, X3 would have been in my top five of all time probably.

Isn't the only real gameplay difference between Tempest 2000 and Tempest X3 the "dumb" AI Droid in the latter?


Is the day of the arcade style game over? As much as I enjoy my Xbox and GameCube, they don't have any updates that had as much care put into them as Tempest 2000 or Robotron 64 did. Is the day of arcade-like experiences only going to be lived on through Museum and Compilation discs? If so, why do you think this occurred? Tempest 2000 was quite the hit and it got a lot of attention. Did the failures of Hasbro/Atari to convert Centipede, Pong and Missile Command in an interesting way put an end to all updates?

Do you define "hit" as critical or commercial? T2K was an extremely well-reviewed game (I wrote it up for Wired back in the day), but I don't think it was a major seller.

And, yeah, pure twitch gameplay has been pretty much banished to the realm of unlockable mini-games. Most modern games are about environments and experiences, with high scores being a secondary or nonexistent element. Hell, it's been going in that direction since Super Mario Bros.

The developers of the Centipede update wrote a "Postmortem" column for Game Developer in which they confessed to essentially botching the job. I could scan it & send it if you're interested.

Did you try Midway's update of Defender? It came and went rather quickly, but I thought it was okay.

-- Z.

[Captain Wrong]

Do you define "hit" as critical or commercial? T2K was an extremely well-reviewed game (I wrote it up for Wired back in the day), but I don't think it was a major seller.

I was thinking the same.

Regardless, I agree with Zach. I think, at least stateside, the days of twitch gaming being anything then an afterthought bonus in a larger game are over and I think it has been for quite a while. The Dreamcast was the last console to feature a steady stream of twitchers, and it didn't exactly break sales records.

[kainemaxwell]

Did you try Midway's update of Defender? It came and went rather quickly, but I thought it was okay.

-- Z.
I remember the update to Sinistar pretty much went the same way too.

[it290]

well I for one would to know of some new shooters in america. I think my collection is almost complete from nes to ps2 and the only new shooters to my knowledge are the "r-tpye final" and "gradius 5". And I just found out about 1".gekioh" 2."shooter spaceshot" and bought them for the ps1

Well, you're missing Shikigami no Shiro 2 (called Castle Shikigami 2 in the US). It's only 10 bucks... great game for that price, even if the translation sucks. And of course less new, but you have Ikaruga for the cube and Silpheed for PS2 (which I hear is not very good). There are also a few for the GBA.

One thing that I think really helps is when the original creators stay involved with the updates to their games. Look at Sid Meier, all of his updates have turned out well and sold decently. The name recognition helps, too. He doesn't do arcade games, but you get my point. I'm sure if Miyamoto designed a new 2d Mario game for the GBA or DS it would be a hit. Of course, you also have Eugene Jarvis, but his new games are just kid of..weird.

[lendelin]

Shmups and more traditional RPGs (Shining Tears, Ys, Fullmetal Alchimist) have appeal today, but they never will be smash hits again.

In particular shmups have appeal because the basic motivation for games - CHALLENGE - is still there, and the intense, fast paced action cannot be replicated in 3D.

They won't be bestsellers because game development from the mid 80s on found a better way to satisfy the two basic motivations (challenge and exploration which results in identification with game content) for playing videogames: smashing buttons are combined with exploration through vast environments which can be transformed and revisited, and stories help to immerse the gamer into the game. Replay value, challenge, and exploration are this way combined.

If you look at game development, one characteristic is the silent development of the hybrid game: elements get slowly combined which were separated by traditional genre lines. Shmups focused in a simple way on one aspect, and they got absorbed. Narrow-mindedness has appeal today, but only as a cheap and refreshing variation to games today.

Shmups aren't dead, they live hidden in every current action game and fast paced shooter and FPS.

The puzzling and attractive Q is: would the same basic, unchanged gameplay resisting transformation of newer developments be successful today? Besides looking at sales figures for new franchises like Ikaruga, we already have the answer.

There is only one series which never took a vacation since the mid 80s, (unlike R-Type or Gradius) and never changed the basic gameplay: the Mega Man series. Once a smash hit, top-notch in every department, it is relegated today to a niche franchise. Mega Man X8 is profitable because of relatively low development costs despite moderate sales figures, but it hasn't mass apeal anymore like Mega Man 2 or 3.

MM as a piece of the past is exactly that: a piece of the past. It explains its appeal and shortcomings. If time stands still, the rule is you are swept away. (MM being the big exception)

[goatdan]

I've been playing my way through Tempest X3, and I went to read some reviews of it online. Granted, I realize it came out after the much superior Jaguar version (superior from a gameplay standpoint), but X3 is an excellent game in its own right, and had Tempest 2000 not have come out on the Jaguar, X3 would have been in my top five of all time probably.

Isn't the only real gameplay difference between Tempest 2000 and Tempest X3 the "dumb" AI Droid in the latter?

Tempest 2000 (Jaggy version) has a lot of differences, that were then botched when moved to the Saturn and PC, and were then further changed (and partially fixed) with X3. A quick overview:

T2K PC / Saturn made the spikes a lot harder to shoot though, made the AI droid useless, removed most of the real hard webs to pass and make it so that when the Zappers (Pulsars? I forget their name) get to the end they don't rush around really fast, but instead just slowly move around, making it a lot less important that you zap them.

TX3 went a few steps further, changing more of the enemies -- the Demon Heads are gone and replaced with this other... thing that isn't nearly as intimidating. There was also again a redesign of the Webs from the PC / Saturn version... And the droid is just as dumb. Powerups happen a lot quicker though, so it means that you'll get things quicker which evens out the fact that you quite often end up getting spiked on your way out. X3 also includes a 2000 mode that is some wacky hybrid of the Jag / Saturn versions -- featuring the same levels and enemies as the Jaguar version but the Saturn spikes and AI droids. Enemy layout also seems to be from the Saturn version.

And the sound effects on all three non-Jaguar versions suck. The music is actual CD audio, which is nice (although personally I like the cart music slightly more), but the sound effects are absolutely horrendous. It seems that most of the bassy, full Jaguar sounds were replaced with tinny, cartoonish sounds.


Do you define "hit" as critical or commercial? T2K was an extremely well-reviewed game (I wrote it up for Wired back in the day), but I don't think it was a major seller.

Tempest 2000 for the Saturn, PC and X3 for the Playstation were not big sellers in any way. But the Jaguar version was supposedly the third best-selling Jaguar title (after Cybermorph and Alien Vs. Predator) and caused a lot of places to take a serious look at the Jaguar. It also had a decent advertising campaign.

It wasn't as big as a hit like Grand Theft Auto San Andreas or Halo 2, but for a system that simply didn't catch on in the mainstream, it did very well.


And, yeah, pure twitch gameplay has been pretty much banished to the realm of unlockable mini-games. Most modern games are about environments and experiences, with high scores being a secondary or nonexistent element. Hell, it's been going in that direction since Super Mario Bros.

I agree... I just think it is kind of sad. I really enjoy the updates to a lot of these older titles, and I would love to see some more excellent, classicly inspired games come out and not suck. Centipede and Missile Command were two games that really could've been done excellently in 3D (in fact, Missile Command 3D for the Jaguar is a good game, although FAR too short).


The developers of the Centipede update wrote a "Postmortem" column for Game Developer in which they confessed to essentially botching the job. I could scan it & send it if you're interested.

I would be, thanks :)


Did you try Midway's update of Defender? It came and went rather quickly, but I thought it was okay.

I haven't because it was 3D, and Defender and games like it are some of my favorites (another canidate for a good 2D update, which was unfortunately not in any way the Jaguar version). If you think it holds pretty true to it though, I will pick it up -- I keep looking at it every time I walk into the local EB... Would it be better for the GameCube or Xbox?

[Nature Boy]

I think the twitch games do allright on handhelds, but not on the consoles.

Handhelds are mostly played quickly, aren't they? Like on a plane or in an outhouse or standing in line or waiting for your wife to get ready or whathaveyou? And you don't want to be in the middle of something big once that window is closed.

I think they'll always have a home. They just might take on more of a Wario Ware feel (where there are lots of them bunched together) as opposed to buying just Tempest and being satisfied with that.

[Aussie2B]

Most of the time it seems either they get it "wrong" (the game as a whole suffers and neither camp likes it) or it stays pretty close to the source but current gen media and gamers snub the title because it doesn't adhere to the trend of current gaming (which I believe was the case with Tempest X3 and Robotron 64).

I think that about sums it up. In the last couple years I picked up both Tempest X3 and Robotron 64, and I like both a lot. They're especially good compared to their values. With almost no demand for them, you can get them for dirt cheap. Anyway, as much as I enjoy them, I can absolutely see why they didn't catch on. The graphics definitely weren't anything to write home about, and considering the average age of a PlayStation or N64 owner, most probably had no clue what the original games were so name recognition didn't help either. These kids want the latest, greatest new thing, not a remake of a game even older than they are. They'd much rather being playing Mario and Zelda or Crash and Tomb Raider.

[Kid Ice]

Shmups and more traditional RPGs (Shining Tears, Ys, Fullmetal Alchimist) have appeal today, but they never will be smash hits again.


I don't know about that. My feeling about the shooters released over the last 5 years or so is that they have just not been good enough. Yes, there have been plenty of good ones, but none to make me think "This is GREAT, this could be a mainstream hit".

With the whole retro/old skool vibe going right now, I could see a great shooter being a big hit. Actually, I've had that feeling for a few years now, but the likes of Silpheed/Ikaruga/R-Type Final/Gradius V aren't going to do it...all those games are good, but it would have to be something monumental to get the kids off GTA for a few minutes.

I'm really rooting for a shooter renaissance similar to what happened to RPGs after Final Fantasy 7...maybe this is just wishful thinking, but I can see it happening when the right game comes along.

[Daniel Thomas]

I'll second that wish for a shooter rebirth. Highly unlikely, but you can always hope.

The real problem from a design point of view is that most developers have lost all the 2D design skills. Hardly anyone knows how to make a good 2D game anymore, aside from a handful of developers for the GBA (and even then, a lot of them went bankrupt). The whole corporate money thing has taken over. Game budgets top $5 million, and are expected to jump to eight figures in the next cycle. There's the hope of having a mega-hit on par with Halo or GTA, but it's practically a turkey shoot.

This is what all the old hands were complaining about at the GDC, and I can't blame them. But I realy don't know how one would change that. I'd like to believe that there's room for an "alternative" or indie-gaming scene, where lower-budgeted 2D games could make a couple bucks.

This is something where game magazines should step up and take responsibility, but they haven't and they never will. They're toy catalogues; their existence is devoted to hyping the hot new toy that's coming out six months later. The day after a game is released, it's dropped and never spoken of again. That needs to change.

Are there any other prozine writers besides Zach who frequents the DP boards? We really need to bring them over here and start some dialoging.

[Graham Mitchell]

This is something where game magazines should step up and take responsibility, but they haven't and they never will. They're toy catalogues; their existence is devoted to hyping the hot new toy that's coming out six months later. The day after a game is released, it's dropped and never spoken of again. That needs to change.


Couple of things: First, I agree with you here big time Daniel. A little anecdote: A neighbor subscribes to EGM. He's lazy and stoned all the time, so he often forgets to pick it up. Our maintenance guy just throws it away after a week, so I asked him if I could have it, and he gave it to me. When I took it up and read it, I was appalled. EGM used to be the greatest in the early 90's. It has degraded to a mindless booby mag, and they don't have anything to say about a game except comment on the graphics, and the violent or sexual content.

Second off, I think some of the shooters being released lately on the PS2 have been really good, actually. R-type Final is great! It's challenging, it looks amazing, and it's got all those unlockable ships. Plus (and I haven't figured out what causes this) sometimes level 2 is submerged underwater, and sometimes it's dry...it's just a little subtlety that makes me say "wow" and encourages replay. I think this game is so good, in fact, that if more people heard about it and knew what it was, it would have taken off a little more. But as it was, I didn't even know the game existed until I started coming onto DP a year ago, and I went all around the North Suburbs tryin to find a copy--nobody had it so I had to special order it.

Some of the shmups we're seeing are very good, but the word is not getting around. The video game mags, or somebody, is not doing their job.

[Captain Wrong]

Some of the shmups we're seeing are very good, but the word is not getting around. The video game mags, or somebody, is not doing their job.

It's not just that, but gamers today don't understand how to play shmups as indicated by the backhanded reviews they get. A reviewer will begrudgingly admit a shmup is fun but not without telling you you can "finish" the game in 20 minutes. Hmm...how's that work? Oh yeah, you beat the continue button like a redheaded stepchild. :roll:

Post-Playstation gamers don't seem to understand that in the arcade (which shmups are a product of) continues cost you money, so the object was to get as far as you could on few credits. It's not like damn near every other game out there today, with multiple save points and endless continues. The point isn't just to reach the end (like it is in so many modern games,) the point is to reach the end without continuing and getting a high score.

And that's another thing gamers today don't get. Scoring seems to be relegated to minigames. Do any games actually tally a score anymore? I don't think modern gamers understand playing for any reason other than reaching the ending or unlocking something. The concept of trying to beat a score (and being able to rank your skill at a game based on the score) is totally out of their range of experience.

I could go on. But I think that's kind of the crux of it. I think a lot of it has to do with the death of the arcades and I think a lot of it has to do with modern gamers only being exposed to "cinematic" gameplay that favors persereverence over skill.

[zmweasel]

Are there any other prozine writers besides Zach who frequents the DP boards? We really need to bring them over here and start some dialoging.

I've heard that a few prozine peeps hang at the Gaming Age Forums, but given that I have to treat most of them as "the enemy" (freelancing is war), I've never bothered to check.

-- Z.

[Graham Mitchell]

Some of the shmups we're seeing are very good, but the word is not getting around. The video game mags, or somebody, is not doing their job.

It's not just that, but gamers today don't understand how to play shmups as indicated by the backhanded reviews they get. A reviewer will begrudgingly admit a shmup is fun but not without telling you you can "finish" the game in 20 minutes. Hmm...how's that work? Oh yeah, you beat the continue button like a redheaded stepchild. :roll:

Post-Playstation gamers don't seem to understand that in the arcade (which shmups are a product of) continues cost you money, so the object was to get as far as you could on few credits. It's not like damn near every other game out there today, with multiple save points and endless continues. The point isn't just to reach the end (like it is in so many modern games,) the point is to reach the end without continuing and getting a high score.

And that's another thing gamers today don't get. Scoring seems to be relegated to minigames. Do any games actually tally a score anymore? I don't think modern gamers understand playing for any reason other than reaching the ending or unlocking something. The concept of trying to beat a score (and being able to rank your skill at a game based on the score) is totally out of their range of experience.

I could go on. But I think that's kind of the crux of it. I think a lot of it has to do with the death of the arcades and I think a lot of it has to do with modern gamers only being exposed to "cinematic" gameplay that favors persereverence over skill.

:hail:

Wow, somebody agrees with me. I think you're right on about this. Any shmoe can beat a modern game as long as they have the time to put into it. The concept of gaming as a skill is virtually lost outside of the FPS multiplayer games, which I have no interest in since everybody cheats anyway. Even people playing Final Fantasy XI online buy gil on ebay. Nobody wants to play anything hard anymore, they don't want to be challenged.

Sometimes the cinematics in games are really interesting and worthwhile, and I remember when CD-rom first came around, they were the main reason for playing the games, to see all those beautiful, hand-drawn animations. But lately it seems that more effort goes into cinematics than into making a fun game (look at some of the recent Final Fantasy titles.) I think the Metal Gear series has the balance down right, but very little else does.

Oh, and I'm still trying to reset the score counter on Balloon Fight! LOL

[Nature Boy]

I don't think it's fair to criticize the post PlayStation gamer for not getting it. I think it makes more sense to criticize the game makers for not evolving with the times. Or to just accept the fact that gamers tastes change over time and nobody is to blame.

Text Adventures were big at one time too.

If shooters want to be about getting high scores I don't think they should attempt to tell a story. High scores should be all about just playing, not about following some convoluted storyline.

[Captain Wrong]

I don't think it's fair to criticize the post PlayStation gamer for not getting it. I think it makes more sense to criticize the game makers for not evolving with the times. Or to just accept the fact that gamers tastes change over time and nobody is to blame.

Hmm...I can see your point. I don't think it's necessarly newer gamer's fault, I think that since the PSX came out, gamers are exposed to that type of gaming less and less. Then you get into a chicken/egg type situation. Which came first? The cinematic style of gaming or people wanting the cinematic style of game?

I still don't think newer gamers really get how you're supposed to play shmups because it is a very different style of gaming. I always see "it's too hard and it's too short" which tells me that the person saying it had no idea what they were getting into. Yeah, they're hard and short because they're quarter munchers. I just doesn't seem to me that modern gamers understand that becuase they didn't grow up with arcades.

As for stories in shmups, I always scroll past that junk anyway. I don't think anyone is going to confuse Castle Shigami for a Final Fantasy anytime soon, and I always think that kind of stuff is there to give you a break between stages more than anything else.

[Nature Boy]

I still don't think newer gamers really get how you're supposed to play shmups because it is a very different style of gaming. I always see "it's too hard and it's too short" which tells me that the person saying it had no idea what they were getting into. Yeah, they're hard and short because they're quarter munchers. I just doesn't seem to me that modern gamers understand that becuase they didn't grow up with arcades.

It seems to me taht they're not quarter munchers anymore though, because they're trying to tell me a story (and quarter munchers never bothered trying to tell me a story - that's what today's games do). Take Gradius V, make it like River Raid (no story, not end, just more and more difficult) and *then* I'd be with you complaining when I heard of people who didn't get that it was a quarter muncher.

Personally I don't know why they bother in Gradius anyway. I certainly pay *zero* attention to what's going on.

[Captain Wrong]

I still haven't picked up GradiusV yet. :(

I don't know if it's any different than what's been poping up in most Japanese boards since the late 90s. Is it? It just seems like every shmup in the last 10 years has had some kind of story to it complete with endings.

I've always thought it's silly, but maybe someone digs it?

[Kid Ice]

I still haven't picked up GradiusV yet. :(

I don't know if it's any different than what's been poping up in most Japanese boards since the late 90s. Is it? It just seems like every shmup in the last 10 years has had some kind of story to it complete with endings.

I've always thought it's silly, but maybe someone digs it?

Not I. "There was a time when the Earth battled the moon" blah blah blah. Just serve me up some aliens and robots to destroy.

I attribute that sensibility to Star Wars (the first one). I don't think it was a coincidence that the first wave of arcade games (Space Invaders, Asteroids, etc.) took place in outer space.

I don't know if gaming reflects the popular culture at large as much these days. It seems today gaming just reflects gaming, with pretty much everything (that sells) being some variation on Tomb Raider, Resident Evil, Madden, Gran Turismo, and Final Fantasy. (oh yeah and Doom)

[Aswald]

Hell, yeah!

[Graham Mitchell]

R-type Final has very brief cinematic segments between levels, too. They're not great but they're not that out of place.

I remember Sol-Feace on the Sega CD had really brilliant cinematics that I loved to watch. What is it that makes those so great and the ones today (which seemingly boast a lot more visual muscle) kind of lackluster? Why is it that I'm impressed by the 10-year-old technology and bored to tears by the new? Does anybody else feel this way?

[Nature Boy]

I still haven't picked up GradiusV yet. :(

I don't know if it's any different than what's been poping up in most Japanese boards since the late 90s. Is it? It just seems like every shmup in the last 10 years has had some kind of story to it complete with endings.

I've always thought it's silly, but maybe someone digs it?

I find the storyline enjoyable from an unintentional comedy standpoint. A storyline in this genre just can't work IMO.