100% legal console emulation

[rxdoga]

I just came across this www.consoleclassix.com today while looking for screenshots and would like to know what you guys think about this "service". Could this be a sign of someone testing the market for games on demand for newer consoles?

[Damaramu]

IMO, it's a bit foolish to pay for ROM downloads, especially since there are so many places you can find those golden oldies online. :hmm:

[Xantan the Foul]

Yeah, paying for ROMs isn't really a good idea. You can get almost any ROM you want for free. And once you have it, who's to say where it came from? It's not like you can really get in trouble unless you're the one distributing them.

[rxdoga]

I don't believe you can get roms from then. The games are played from their server using the software it seems. I guess thats what makes it legal and yes it does seem foolish to pay to borrow or rent roms.

[Joelius]

Buy...phooey...I'll just go to my favorite porno-infested ROM sites and download a few hundred to my hard drive. Like what was mentioned earlier, who's to say where you got them from. Nor will the Feds come knocking at your door for downloading the original Ninja Gaiden or Final Fantasy or any of the such.

[Captain Wrong]

Have you read the legal info part of that site? I don't possibly see how this could be legal and even if it was, unless I'm misunderstanding how their system works, I don't think it would fly. You're just "renting" the ROM for a finite period, not buying it.

I dunno. The whole thing seems fishy to me.

[rxdoga]

Have you read the legal info part of that site? I don't possibly see how this could be legal and even if it was, unless I'm misunderstanding how their system works, I don't think it would fly. You're just "renting" the ROM for a finite period, not buying it.

I dunno. The whole thing seems fishy to me.

Yeah I just read through it. It seems they found a loop hole because people who use the service never take posession of roms in any way. Not even Nintendo, who I think has sued everyone at some point, never took legal action against them after they responded to a letter Nintendo sent in 2001.

[petewhitley]

I can see not wanting to download ROMs because you want to see to it that those responsible for the games get money. But in this case, the only person getting any money is the guy who is basically "renting" his games out over the 'net. What a waste of money.

[slip81]

Paying for PC ROMs? Not likely, though I would pay something like $1 per game if this type of service was offerd for say my Xbox or PS2. It would be cool to be able to download all the legal games you like and then have them perminately stored on your system's HDD to play whenever you want.

[Flack]

I think that site is 100% legal until one of those companies finds out about it and then it will be 100% shut down and that guy will get 100% sued.

It's an interesting concept (the idea of renting roms, just like Blockbuster rents movies) but my guess is, it won't fly. Without doing much reading, I doubt (regardless of what they say) that they dumped all the ROMs themselves. I read their little legal section ... I dunno, the whole thing seems a bit shifty.

EDIT: It's also interesting that their download package includes other people's emulators. I don't know if they have permission to do that or not (and don't care really) but that makes it seem even more fishy.

[Captain Wrong]

EDIT: It's also interesting that their download package includes other people's emulators. I don't know if they have permission to do that or not (and don't care really) but that makes it seem even more fishy.

That's what I was trying to figure out. I couldn't find any info about how the games were emulated. I had a hunch through all their legal mumbo jumbo it was ripping off other people's emulators.

Of course, I'm not downloading it to find out. :)

[badinsults]

I have seen this debate many times on the Zsnes forum (Zsnes supports this website). Considering that they own all the carts, it is no different than pay per view movies on your satellite. If someone is using a rom, then no one else can play that game, unless they have multiple carts.

[DragonMaster Sam]

Some time ago, I registered on ConsoleClassix, but only played the NES games. No way that I'm going to pay to play SNES Roms. I'd rather download or buy the games online.

[Daria]

Wow. That's complete bullshit.

[SuperNES]

wow, that sounds like complete crap to me. even if it's not, i'd rather just download the normal ROMS for free (and illegaly) it's not like nintendo is still making any money off of old NES games anyways. LOL
or what about those guys who sell discs on ebay containing ROMS and emulators. that's illegal. have you seen the warnings on every EMU site, that say NOT FOR DISTRIBUTION WITH ROMS? the guys who make the emulators don't want to admit that they actually use their emulators for emulation, so they refuse to give you any links to ROMs. ah well, i'm starting to ramble.

[G4MZ0v3R]

Wow. That's complete bullshit.

My sentiments exactly. :D

[Phosphor Dot Fossils]

Something no one's brought up yet is..if you have to download some kind of module to use that site, I betcha it's throwing a heap of spyware/adware/malware/dirty underware onto the hard drive of anyone who falls for the okeydoke.

[Mangar]

I'd never pay for roms ever.

But with that said - It was only 3-4 years ago when the thought of paying for music online was considered "absurd" as well. If industry groups ever got together and figured out a way to actually make a buck in this fashion... (shrug) Never know what could happen in the next 10 years...

[sabre2922]

Emulation is used in large part by gaming enthusiasts like us to enjoy the older games that we grew up with without having to patch together an old NES or Atari AND find an old Working game cartridge and all the troubles that go along with trying to play many of the old cartridge systems be it wore out controllers or whatever.
I have Emulators for NES,SNES,Genesis,Gameboy and a few others but I use them ONLY for my enjoyment not for any type of profit whatsoever.

The game companies/console makers really dont care about emulation unless an individual or small company is making a profit off their copyrighted property and SELLING it Illegally.

The last time I made this statement it started a flaming war but here goes anyway ;)
Many of the old ROMS on MOST of the cartridge systems ARE NO LONGER COPYRIGHTED nor are they owned by ANYONE.
Now There are many exceptions also even the old Mario Bros. and Donkey Kong ROMS are still all property of Nintendo as is everyone of the old NES MEGA MAN games are owned by Capcom basically any popular game series that has moved from the old 8-bit days to current gen or some games that are included in retro collections you can bet that they are still copyrighted AND PROTECTED by the ISA but unless someone is making 100's or even thousands of discs containing those copyrighted ROMS and making a large profit off of something that they DO NOT OWN nobody really cares about an gamer playing a quick game of FAXANADU or Double Dragon on thier NES Emulator.

[yuppicide]

There is a goverment website that says something about a bunch of ROM's being legal if the system is no longer sold in stores and they're not readily available for purchase. Thrift shops, or fleamarkets and stuff like that wouldn't count. Only retail stores.

Anyway, there's a bunch of places online you can buy ROMS. People do not actually sell you the ROM's. Instead you are paying for the CD's (or DVD's) and the postage and time to copy the discs for you. The more you buy the cheaper they are. I don't have the website off hand because I am in Hawaii and my links are at home, but there's a whole community of people who copy discs for you and sell you complete collections and they have feedback ratings and everything.

I personally wouldn't buy any collection unless it's complete.. ie: MAME with everything. It saves me a lot of time to download the stuff I want.

Guess I'm just lazy?! I haven't made a purchase yet. Or maybe it's because I haven't built a MAME cabinet yet?!

[InsaneDavid]

Considering that they own all the carts, it is no different than pay per view movies on your satellite. If someone is using a rom, then no one else can play that game, unless they have multiple carts.

That's the loophole in emulation restriction I've found as well. If you have access to an original physical copy of an emulated game, then it should be legal. Then if anyone has any problem you can show proof of ownership with the physical cartridge. If they are offering a "that game is in use, no more are available for play currently" business model then I can see this having some ligitimacy.


Anyway, there's a bunch of places online you can buy ROMS. People do not actually sell you the ROM's. Instead you are paying for the CD's (or DVD's) and the postage and time to copy the discs for you. The more you buy the cheaper they are. I don't have the website off hand because I am in Hawaii and my links are at home, but there's a whole community of people who copy discs for you and sell you complete collections and they have feedback ratings and everything.

I personally wouldn't buy any collection unless it's complete.. ie: MAME with everything. It saves me a lot of time to download the stuff I want.

This is how I obtain the current MAME-compatible romset, there's a burner I've used in the past and they collect money to purchase media and send the archive to you. You don't pay for contents, just media and mailing.


Guess I'm just lazy?! I haven't made a purchase yet. Or maybe it's because I haven't built a MAME cabinet yet?!

Just started on my arcade cocktail. :) With the size of the current MAME-compatible romset this is really the only logical way to remain current.

[izret101]

I think it would be silly for anyone to pay for ROMs.
There are so many places to get them for free.

I guess if you are paying for them though you are more likely going to get what you want and not hacks or remakes that peopledo. And chances are you will get ones that don't have screwed up Checksums and other such problems.

But i don't see how this site can really say what they are doing is legal anyways.

Selling or rentin the roms would still be just as illegal as giving them away if not more.
Because now you are making a profit on something that is illegal.

just my 2 cents expanded to try and get a few more meseta.

[rbudrick]

Many of the old ROMS on MOST of the cartridge systems ARE NO LONGER COPYRIGHTED nor are they owned by ANYONE.

Copyrights are good in America for 70 years. And trust me...SOMEONE owns the rights to any given game, even if the company is out of business. SOme one probably bought the rights to it.

If you check out online emulators like everyvideogame.com, it seems the rom still ends up on your computer, but they sorta hide it.....dunno if this site does the same.

-Rob

[FantasiaWHT]

By what I understand of copyright law, this is legal if they do have a legal physical copy of the game, BUT they can only "ren t out" one ROM per physical copy. If they only own one and have it rented out to three people, that would be illegal.

Why?

Because they don't have a broadcast license for this media (I'm assuming, since I've never heard of a broadcast license for video game media, but I could be wrong)

To draw an analogy... the distributor of the pay-per-view movies mentioned before did NOT go to the store and pay $20 for the DVD of that movie, they had to pay a broadcasting license fee for that movie, probably in the tens or hundreds of thousands of dollars. Whereas Blockbuster did just pay the retail price for that movie (unless they got an early release license or some sort).

Similarly, radio stations don't pay $8 for their singles they play.

[RockyRaccoon]

This works like a rental store.

Basically...they PHYSICALLY have as many copies of the game as they offer for play.... you can only play as many copies as they actually have. For example Lets say that....:

They physically have 15 copies of Sonic the Hedgehogs.

So the MAX amount anyone out in the world could be playing at once is 15...it cuts it off at there. You pay them to "Rent" the game so to speak through thier software.

So this is really no different than say...blockbuster offering games for rent. Just it's online.

And...yeah, There probably IS Some SORT of violation here, it's just not in the direct COPYRIGHT violations...because what they are doing in all senses is no more the wrong than how blockbuster rents out games.

It's Proabably within the broadcasting of it, like someone else said in this post.

[Red Hedgehog]

This works like a rental store.

Basically...they PHYSICALLY have as many copies of the game as they offer for play.... you can only play as many copies as they actually have. For example Lets say that....:

They physically have 15 copies of Sonic the Hedgehogs.

So the MAX amount anyone out in the world could be playing at once is 15...it cuts it off at there. You pay them to "Rent" the game so to speak through thier software.

So this is really no different than say...blockbuster offering games for rent. Just it's online.

And...yeah, There probably IS Some SORT of violation here, it's just not in the direct COPYRIGHT violations...because what they are doing in all senses is no more the wrong than how blockbuster rents out games.

It's Proabably within the broadcasting of it, like someone else said in this post.

Actually, I'm pretty sure this does fall under copyright infringements (you infringe, you don't violate a copyright) - broadcast rights are included in those. But I don't even think this counts as a broadcast. presumably, they have a copy of the ROM on their servers. When you "rent" the game, it is copied onto your computer and you can then play it all you like until you "return" it. The fact that a copy of the game was made would be a copyright infringement right there (even if it were encrypted or you could only play it when connected to their server). There is nothing in current copyright law that allows something like this (as far as I am aware) and therefore making a copy of the game, even for this purpose would infringe the copyright unless the copyright holder (Nintendo, Capcom, etc.) specificially allowed it. It is possible that a judge might rule doing this is in the spirit of thecopyright law, but it certainly violates the letter.

And for those who have said that the copyrights have expired on these games, or that copying ROMs is legal if the y are not readily available for purpose, you are wrong.

For works created for a company, the copyright lasts for 70 years from the date of creation. For works created for an individual, copyright lasts until 50 years after the creator's death (actually, I'm pretty sure these recently changed to 90 years and 75 years, respectively - but I don't remember if the change was retroactive. I seem to remember the supreme court ruling that it was, but could be wrong). Copyrights do not lapse or relax in this time period. Some copyright holders do release their work into the public domain, meaning it then becomes legal to copy or change or do whatever you want to it. But, unless a copyright holder has done so, if you download a ROM of a game you do not own, you have committed an illegal act. (If you do own a copy, you can make the claim that you were just making a backup of your game.)

Now, most companies don't bother enforcing these old copyrights since it is not worth their while. They are no loner making money on these games. This is why most ROM sites flourish despite the fact that they are technically contributing to illegal activity.

(Note that I only know US copyright law, so this may not apply to other countries)

[rbudrick]

You can not rent a copy of any software or print material unless the owner of the copyright has given you permission to. Or, unless you rent out the original with the copy.

Remember when all those game stores got sued for photocopying the instructions when they rented out games?

Copying a game is not illegal if you own the original. Even then, you can make only one copy. If you get rid of the original, you MUST get rid of the copy too to remain legal. If you sell the game to someone, you must either destory the copy before giving the original to them or you must give the copy to them.

Renting out a ROM alone is not legal if it is copyrighted material, period.

-Rob

[Captain Wrong]

You can not rent a copy of any software or print material unless the owner of the copyright has given you permission to. Or, unless you rent out the original with the copy.

Remember when all those game stores got sued for photocopying the instructions when they rented out games?

Copying a game is not illegal if you own the original. Even then, you can make only one copy. If you get rid of the original, you MUST get rid of the copy too to remain legal. If you sell the game to someone, you must either destory the copy before giving the original to them or you must give the copy to them.

Renting out a ROM alone is not legal if it is copyrighted material, period.

-Rob

This is kind of what I was thinking, I just couldn't find the words.

The other thing to note is lack of legal action against the website does not indicate what they are doing is legal. In their FAQ they mention getting a cease and desist letter from Nintendo, which they ignored, and they claim that because they haven't heard back from them that what they're doing must be legal. No so at all. All that means is they've now been alerted by the copywrite holder that they believe what they are doing is illegal so when/if it comes to court Nintendo can say they were served with the c & d and kept on doing what they were doing.

Honestly, this probably isn't worth Nintendo's time to persue, but they certaintly could if they wanted to.

[Barbarianoutkast85]

If your paying this website for roms wouldnt they need to throw some money up to nintendo, sega etc. etc. to make it 100% legal?

[NeoSNightmarE]

that is the stupidest idea that i have ever heard. why would somebody actually pay for a Rom that you can get online that is just as legal...if not more so than a site that claims to let you "rent" out these things. i dont see this going the route of music at all as it was mentioned before. and Nintendo is like the only licenser that actually gives a shit at this point. and the only reason why they car is because they are taking the old games and releasing them on the GBA as classics and making money on it all over again. /rant.

[JB Lars]

wow, that sounds like complete crap to me. even if it's not, i'd rather just download the normal ROMS for free (and illegaly) it's not like nintendo is still making any money off of old NES games anyways.

You've GOT to be kidding me. Animal Crossing? The e-Reader cards? The "surprise" popularity of the NES ports to the GBA? And that's just off the top of my head.

[FantasiaWHT]

Yes, you aren't just stealing games, you're stealing intellectual property, which is the justification for the extremely high fines for copyright infringements.

[dan2357]

Even if "renting" them out was ok, Don't video stores pay big bucks for there copies of movies and games?
I remember stories of people renting movies and games back in the day and having to pay an absurd amount of money to the store to replace it.

So if this was to be legit, wouldn't he need permission and payfor the rights from the original companys? Even the old ones? I know I still rent movies from the early eighties.

but anyway who would pay for roms.
What else are you susposed to do at work when you sit in front of a computer for 8hrs a day, then look for roms?

[XxMe2NiKxX]

This is not legal, because you require approval in order to legally rent or publicly display anything.

[Red Hedgehog]

Even if "renting" them out was ok, Don't video stores pay big bucks for there copies of movies and games?
I remember stories of people renting movies and games back in the day and having to pay an absurd amount of money to the store to replace it.

Video stores pay big bucks to get movies before they are released for sale to the public. These early movies cost premium because there is no other way to get them. However nowadays with movies being released for sale so soon after the movie is out of theaters, often the sale date is the same date video stores can get them so they don't pay any extra (they have no need to).


This is not legal, because you require approval in order to legally rent or publicly display anything.

Eh? I'm pretty sure the first sale doctine of copyright law allows you to rent any physical item you own. I'm not sure what you mean in terms of public display - that generally refers to broadcasting a song/movie (or performing a song/movie) for the public. I don't know where games fall in there.

[FurinkanianFrood]

1. Video games haven't existed long enough for copyrights to expire. Copyrights can now basically be renewed indefinitely anyway.

2. Anything other than personal use normally requires approval.

3. You can bet that the game company lawyers will call it broadcasting, because it is.

4. The law is irrelavant with regards to corporations. If they consider it worthwhile enough to pursue, THEY WILL WIN.
The law will not stop them.

5. Many of the arguments above fall under fair use rights, which virtually no longer exist. The DMCA pretty much destroyed all consumer rights in this area. You can only do what the corps expliclity say you can, otherwise they will just shell out $$$ and the law will get interpreted in their favor. It always does. Making backup copies for personal use only would be ruled illegal in today's courts BTW.

6. Despite the complaints the above, I do not consider use of ROM images to be ethically acceptable in the vast majority of cases. While my opinion on the ethics of the matter has little to do with the actual law:

ROMS are ILLEGAL. There is no way around this unless the copyright holder relinquishes rights of some kind to another party. Which will never be those guys, me, or you.

There is no loophole. It's a pipe dream.

[LocalH]

5. Many of the arguments above fall under fair use rights, which virtually no longer exist. The DMCA pretty much destroyed all consumer rights in this area. You can only do what the corps expliclity say you can, otherwise they will just shell out $$$ and the law will get interpreted in their favor. It always does. Making backup copies for personal use only would be ruled illegal in today's courts BTW.
No, but dumping 'obsolete' games is exempted as per the Library of Congress. Which, to me, means that 16-bit dumping hardware is legal as well.


ROMS are ILLEGAL. There is no way around this unless the copyright holder relinquishes rights of some kind to another party. Which will never be those guys, me, or you.
Not always true. There are plenty of homebrew ROM images that are 100% legal to download a copy of.

[sabre2922]

WOW I didnt realize that we had so many Lawyers here at DP :roll: how long did it take some of you guys that are freakin experts at copyright laws etc to pass the bar exam?
I rarely pass a bar LOL

The bottom line is that Nintendo , Sega and just about every other gaming company , developer , publisher etc doesnt give a SHIT about some gamer playing an old emulated 8-bit or 16-bit ROM on a PC or Mac no one is making a profit and they sure as hell arent losing any money in any way shape form or fashion Now if you will excuse me I have a meeting with the other members of my firm 8-)

[Captain Wrong]

The bottom line is that Nintendo , Sega and just about every other gaming company , developer , publisher etc doesnt give a SHIT about some gamer playing an old emulated 8-bit or 16-bit ROM on a PC or Mac no one is making a profit and they sure as hell arent losing any money in any way shape form or fashion

Umm, I'm pretty sure Sega was taking people down back when they were still in the hardware business. I'm almost 100% sure there was an article to that effect in the old Official Dreamcast Magazine. I'm also pretty certain Nintendo has taken a few ROM sites out as well.

Both Nintendo and Sega are still making money on these games, so the arguement can be made that they are losing money and in the instance of this "rental" service, someone is making a profit. In fact, most ROM sites are loaded to the gills with advertising, and the ROMS are what draw people to the site so, again it could be argued they are making a profit off them.

Again I say just because no one is being prosecuted doesn't mean it's legal. It doesn't take a lawyer of any kind to know that's true.

[sabre2922]

Actually you just made my point for me ;)
I agree that Nintendo and Sega and a few others ARE still making money off of SOME thier older games thats exactly my point that the few ppl that actaully do use Emulation are in such a small minority that it doesnt detract from their profits nor interfere with their buisness in ANY WAY at least not YET.

The average gamer (i.e. casual gamer) doesnt take the time to download an emulator then search for roms then make it all work on their computer like some of us do ,they like to buy or rent a NEW game and pop it in their PS2 or XBOX or Gamecube and play right then no hassle, now to many of us here at DP its a VERY simple process but when I showed a friend of mine how to do it on his computer he was completely lost and he is a very intelligent person.
Its just that most of us here seem to assume that just about anyone can figure out how to work an emulator on their PC or Mac well it just isnt soo I mean I wonder how many others here have family members that are almost COMPLETELY COMPUTER ILLiTERATE? I know that at least HALF of my family is.

[Zerothis]

There's a misunderstanding of "broadcast rights" broadcasting means in public, at an event and implies duplication at multiple locations. I can have a cable box upstares and 'broadcast' a TV show to my TV downstairs without violating the law. I could 'broadcast' to the next town over the internet or phone lines, provided I took steps to ensure no one else could intercept this broadcast. RadioShack sells a box that lets you watch you own TV from any Internet connected computer. It's legal because only you can watch it. When a game is played, the information is transfered from the ROM to the RAM of the machine. As long as this transfer is kept 'private', it doesn't matter how it gets there or even if the information is modified on the way. As long as no working duplicate is permanently created on the other end, its legal. See case: Galoob v Nintendo. Nintendo tried to claim Galoob was violating copyright and stealing the ROM info of their games. Legally the information in the RAM was not a 'copy' because it was lost when the system lost power and not permenently recorded anywhere (including back onto the ROM). This case also reconfirmed that consumers have a right to a backup copy, provided they legally obtain it (which is trickier than a game genie). Consoleclassix is obtaining their backup copies following the specific instructions allowed in the DMCA. Before 'broadcast', it is encrypted in such a way as to be useless, even to local systems at CC's office. They then use a really looooong game genie (the internet) to send the data to the only machine that has the only decrypted key. This key exists only in the RAM and is erased as soon as contact with the server is broken or the system is switched off. Before deciding this is fishy or illegal, consider that GameTap is doing exactly the same thing for some of their games. Right down to using someone else's emulators.