Is there really a convincing argument for the 7800 over NES?

[MarioMania]

yep.Do you have the NES repo site Bangtango

[theoakwoody]

The 7800 would have had a slight head start. That's all. It isn't as if Nintendo would have released Super Mario Bros. for the 7800 instead, though, so it is a moot point.

The threads not about whether or not Nintendo would have published games for the 7800. The thread is about whether or not the 7800 would be considered as a successful system or even THE 8 bit system had things been different and it had been released in '84. And I don't see why they wouldn't have released super mario on the 7800 because they had already released Mario Bros., Donkey Kong, and Konkey Kong Jr. So I don't think its a moot point.

[bangtango]

The threads not about whether or not Nintendo would have published games for the 7800. The thread is about whether or not the 7800 would be considered as a successful system or even THE 8 bit system had things been different and it had been released in '84. And I don't see why they wouldn't have released super mario on the 7800 because they had already released Mario Bros., Donkey Kong, and Konkey Kong Jr. So I don't think its a moot point.

Well, if you want wild speculation, I'll give you some :)

Either Nintendo or Sega still would have overwhelmed Atari, assuming the Sega Master System and NES were released on schedule. I'm not going to sit there and break this down piece by piece. I'll go off on a real tangent below, though.

Let's say for fun that the NES was never released but the Master System was. Meanwhile Nintendo was around releasing games for other platforms. I think the Master System would have soundly thumped the 7800 upon its release, unless Nintendo was releasing lots of titles on the 7800 only. The trouble is you know Nintendo would have wanted to go for a more powerful machine that could do their games right. Nintendo would have understood the benefits of a system, like the SMS, that can promise decent to good arcade conversions of games that were actually somewhat NEW (Outrun, Double Dragon, etc.) and not stuff from years ago (Centipede, Asteroids, etc.) that was already ported onto earlier systems even if they were inferior ports to what the 7800 could turn out.

Best case scenario in this alternate history without the NES would have been Nintendo releasing games for BOTH the SMS/7800. So 1984 or no 1984, the 7800 just wasn't going to last. The best they could have hoped for would be some middling third party support but they wouldn't have gotten support on the level that Nintendo did. Not when there were prolific third parties that only came into the game on account of Nintendo's eventual success. I don't think the market wasn't as flooded with third parties in 1984 as it was when Nintendo was on fire with the NES. The computer game market, yes, but not every successful computer game would have been headed to an Atari 7800. It'd have been on the Atari computers instead. Not even the NES got versions of some of the best computer games, so the 7800 wasn't going to be seeing a lot of them either.

Yes, the 7800 could have seen some additional software from Nintendo but there is no guarantee that would have been happening. With all of that said, let's cut to the chase. Atari wasn't going to have the market to itself forever. Either Nintendo or Sega still would have taken it from them somewhere along the line.

It is just my opinion but I think the biggest problems for Atari came from within. I can't speak for the buying public back then but I think people may have been tired of Atari and wanted the next big thing.

I wanted the Lynx and Jaguar to prosper when I used to read about them in magazines about 15 years ago. So I haven't got it in for Atari. I'm just calling it the way I see it.

[boatofcar]

I don't think the SMS would have had a chance against the 7800 in 1984 simply because their marketing in the US was so bad. Plenty of people never even knew the SMS existed.

[bangtango]

yep.Do you have the NES repo site Bangtango

I have one of them. I'll send it to you in a PM or something.

[theoakwoody]

I don't think the SMS would have had a chance against the 7800 in 1984 simply because their marketing in the US was so bad. Plenty of people never even knew the SMS existed.

I agree. Sega didn't have any success in Japan so I don't know why things would have been any different in the US. The key is Nintendo, if they never entered the US market the 7800 would have run away with the market. I don't know enough about the European market and how Sega was able to do so well there but it just didn't translate to Japan and the US.

[j_factor]

For all the horrible marketing, SMS still outsold 7800, did it not?

And anyway, the SMS only did so badly because of Tonka; if it weren't for the already great success of the NES, I don't think Sega would've handed off the SMS to Tonka in the first place.

[boatofcar]

For all the horrible marketing, SMS still outsold 7800, did it not?


I really, really doubt it, but if you have a link to that info, I'd be glad to be proven wrong.

[theoakwoody]

I really, really doubt it, but if you have a link to that info, I'd be glad to be proven wrong.

I have no data to argue either way but I've heard that the Tramiels actually made quite a bit of money for themselves with the 7800 by keeping production and development costs way down. They probably sold at least a couple of million consoles. The thing that is amazing to me is how many sealed 7800 games are still out there. It seems like there are more sealed than unsealed games listed on Ebay nowadays.

For all the horrible marketing, SMS still outsold 7800, did it not?


And anyway, the SMS only did so badly because of Tonka; if it weren't for the already great success of the NES, I don't think Sega would've handed off the SMS to Tonka in the first place.

So was Tonka their excuse in Japan as well?

[Rob2600]

If you check out the screenshots for M.I.A. on the 7800 you can see what the console was capable of, those graphics look amazing.

I just looked at some screen shots of the Atari 7800 Missing in Action prototype game. The graphics are good...definitely better than I was expecting. I'd say they're on par with second-generation NES games. However, by 1988, the graphics in good NES games far surpassed Missing in Action's graphics.

So, if Missing in Action is almost the best graphics the 7800 could do, then the NES was much better.


Wait, wait, wait. Are you reading from the Wikipedia article (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nintendo_64#Architecture_and_software_development) ? It mentions those three same companies.

This is what I see:

The N64 was horribly straitjacketed by an infernally low texture cache; 4 kilobytes! Conker only looks as good as it does because they used tiny patches to build up better looking, larger "mega-textures" from the bits, but this approach has some obvious drawbacks in how much detail can be used.

There were also problems with the video processor's microcode being too accurate, which led to needless waste of CPU cycles. Nintendo did eventually allow outside developers access to (primitive) tools to program microcode by themselves, but that was too late in the game to make much of a difference.

That's funny. I didn't see your response until just now. No, I didn't read that from Wikipedia.org. I followed Nintendo 64 development very closely in the late 1990s and early 2000s and knew which developers were capable of producing amazing looking games on the Nintendo 64 and which developers weren't.

True, the Nintendo 64 had a very small texture cache, but as you stated, smart developers like Rare found loopholes and workarounds. In the right hands, it wasn't a problem. Some games, like Shadow Man, Rayman 2: The Great Escape, Conker's Bad Fur Day, etc. are borderline Dreamcast quality.

You're also right about the N64's ridiculously accurate 3D rendering microcode. It seems Silicon Graphics made the Z-buffer too accurate, which put more strain on the two CPUs than necessary. A few developers eventually optimized the microcode or disabled the Z-buffer entirely.

[8bitdude]

Its funny how back in the day all we had was a Master System in our home and everyone who came to my house to play it, liked it better than there Nes & 7800.

I like all three systems don't get me wrong, and they all had there strong points.

But really if the Master System would have been promoted more in the states, I really do think it would have did better in the US.

I mean other than the US and Japan, when it comes to this 8 bit selling war, the Sega Master System won.

Its just the fact that the Nes won in the US, and people take that as the Nes won the world.

[Rob2600]

other than the US and Japan, when it comes to this 8 bit selling war, the Sega Master System won.

This must be that "new logic" some people keep using. :)

[boatofcar]

This must be that "new logic" some people keep using. :)

The thing is, while the SMS was more popular in Europe than the NES, the 8 bit console market was ridiculously small compared to the 8 bit console market. In terms of worldwide sales figures, there's no comparison between the NES and the SMS.

I'm not really sure why the SMS was so popular in South America.

[tom]

This must be that "new logic" some people keep using. :)

NES sold 1.5 mill consoles by 1992 in Europe, hardly earthshaking now is it (source: Game Over book).

SMS did better in UK than NES, mainly due to SMS games cost GBP 29.90, NES games cost GBP 50.00. Imagine spending GBP 50 ($100), on a game and you end up with something like Godzilla, or Taboo.

Kids in UK were still playing Spectrum tape games during the late 80, where a game cost GBP 6.00 - 9.00 and Amiga/ST games cost 19.99. Who's gonna buy expensive NES games in UK, are you mad?

SMS did better in SA (Brasil) due to the fact that Sega struck a distributing deal with Tec Toys, and Nintendo ignored SA (source: interview with Tec Toys in Retro Gamer )

[tomaitheous]

The SMS might have out sold the NES in EU, but the 8bit console market wasn't as huge in EU as it was in US and JP. BR is just a weird exception. SMS was going strong due to price of the games and console VS whatever else you were going to pay for which was a huge difference - according to my friend who's from Brazil.

If the NES didn't come to the US, I don't think the SMS could have created the hype and atmosphere that the NES had. Sure it would have been popular, but not like the NES. The strength of the NES comes from it's library of games, which where originally from Japan. That was the key to the success of the US NES market. The SMS library from Japan wasn't on par with the Famicom. The SMS just didn't have the vast quality and unique library to draw from(japan) that the NES did.

I've seen this argument that if the Nintendo didn't have such strong arm licensing tactics or if the NES never came to the US, that the SMS *would* have created the exact same scenario. Given what we know now, I just don't see that happening.

I remember at the time of NES and SMS in 1988, looking at the SMS library and thinking... there's nothing there I really *wanted* to play. Of the games I played/sampled, they felt generic and stiff. Thanks to emulation now a days, I actually got to see the few gems of the system.

As for the 7800, the res just really holds the system back. It has that funny atari computer and C64 low res look. MIA looks average at best - though I haven't seen it in action. The 7800 also has a lot of arcade games that I would not or do not play, like Joust, Centipede, Dig-Dug(well.. maybe Dig-Dug :D ), Choplifter!, Asteroids, Donkey Kong, Donkey Kong Jr, Mario Bros, Galaga, Karateka, Rampage, Q*bert, etc.

[tom]

The key to success in USA was Nintendo's bullying tactics. Stock anything else besides the NES, we'll pull it out.

The NES is really mostly a quantity over quality console. 2200 carts for NES/Famicom, let's say 100 to 150 quality titles, 200 tops.

Unique titles? They didn't even make it to USA.

.

[guitargary75]

No, it's all about the titles. Mario, Zelda and Metroid.

[tom]

No, it's all about the titles. Mario, Zelda and Metroid.

See what I mean?

[Greg2600]

As for the topic of the post, the hardware of the NES was superior (aside from the design of the cartridge intake). The D-pad was huge, I couldn't take the Atari stick anymore. The hardware on the Atari system itself was not as good as NES or SMS. Not to mention everything with the 7800 except the game cartridges were gigantic. And the games Nintendo developed or parties like Konami or Capcom chipped in with were superior to anything at that time. Atari's major 3rd parties of the past like Coleco, Activision, Imagic, and Parker Brothers were either out of the game business or on their way out. The NES exclusivity pacts killed any chance Atari or Sega had, but they were already done in.

Now, had the 7800 been released in 1984 as planned, and Nintendo still went ahead with the NES, what would have happened? Honestly, I think the same thing, because Atari was a management disaster. But if they were properly managed and actually listened to their programmers, maybe not. They would have been able to satisfy home gamers with proper arcade ports of new arcade games. I never agreed with this notion that in those years the home computer was king over the video game. Most of America could not afford nor had any use for a home computer. Everybody still had a 2600. However, again I come back to the games. The reason the game market crashed IMO was that there suddenly were no more new, inventive games. They all kept recycling the same games. Nintendo's biggest draw were games like SMB, Zelda, Metroid, Punch out, RC Pro-Am, etc. Games you had never seen the likes of before, even in the arcade. Now if Atari was able to get the Capcoms and Konamis to make games for the 7800 as well, Nintendo would not have been as exclusive. But even so, everybody had to have Super Mario Brothers and the like.

[ApolloBoy]

Not to mention everything with the 7800 except the game cartridges were gigantic.

:?

The 7800 is close to the same size as the NES, that's not what I'd call "gigantic". Now if you substituted the "78" for "52", then that'd make sense.

[Rob2600]

NES sold 1.5 mill consoles by 1992 in Europe, hardly earthshaking

Yes, but that doesn't mean the Sega Master System won the 8-bit war. Hence, my "new logic" comment.

[tom]

Yes, but that doesn't mean the Sega Master System won the 8-bit war. Hence, my "new logic" comment.

Well, it did were consoles are concerned here in Europe, even the VCS Jr sold more in the late 80s/ early 90s than NES did. I think VCS is the winner, followed by SMS and Videopac (Philips was very popular with the Videopac in Europe)
Of course the 'real' 8-bit war in Europe was won by C-64, in the UK it was Spectrum (C-64 was popular all over Europe, Spectrum was a UK only success).

[Rob2600]

Well, it did were consoles are concerned here in Europe, even the VCS Jr sold more in the late 80s/ early 90s than NES did.

The 8-bit war wasn't limited to Europe. It was worldwide.

[tom]

The 8-bit war wasn't limited to Europe. It was worldwide.

Yes, but as 8bitdude stated the NES success was limited to Japan and USA. here in Europe it wasn't even a fart in the Atlantic when compared to the US sales. Whereas the SMS was doing quite alright, had good advertising, and Sega smoothly managed the changeover from SMS to MegaDrive (and also managed to beat the SNES in sales).

(I remember standing in a game shop in the early 90s and they demonstrated the NES/R.O.B. combination. Kids were saying what a load of rubbish, that doesn't even do anything.)

[Rob2600]

Yes, but as 8bitdude stated the NES success was limited to Japan and USA.

"Limited" to Japan and the U.S.? That's funny. They're the two biggest video game markets in the world.


I remember standing in a game shop in the early 90s and they demonstrated the NES/R.O.B. combination. Kids were saying what a load of rubbish, that doesn't even do anything.

R.O.B. wasn't meant to do anything practical. It was just a gimmick to get stores in the U.S. to stock the NES in 1985.

[tomaitheous]

Unique titles? They didn't even make it to USA.


You obviously don't know very much about the NES in the US then.

[Rob2600]

Look at a game like Tower Toppler. THAT was what the 7800 could do.

Yeah, but the NES could do it too:

Castelian - NES Gameplay (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZXVy6XumttI)

Tower Toppler for the Atari 7800 (halfway through the video) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6W9iDia4DhU)

The submarine bonus stage in the 7800 version features impressive parallax scrolling. The NES version features a different, stupid, completely unimpressive bonus stage instead. D'oh!

[tom]

You obviously don't know very much about the NES in the US then.

See this forum, see the upper left hand side: Online Rarity Guide, go there, select Nintendo NES, US Game releases, click on 'go for it big boy'...that's all...

.

[strongmanx]

As for the topic of the post, the hardware of the NES was superior (aside from the design of the cartridge intake). The D-pad was huge, I couldn't take the Atari stick anymore. The hardware on the Atari system itself was not as good as NES or SMS. Not to mention everything with the 7800 except the game cartridges were gigantic. And the games Nintendo developed or parties like Konami or Capcom chipped in with were superior to anything at that time. Atari's major 3rd parties of the past like Coleco, Activision, Imagic, and Parker Brothers were either out of the game business or on their way out. The NES exclusivity pacts killed any chance Atari or Sega had, but they were already done in.

Now, had the 7800 been released in 1984 as planned, and Nintendo still went ahead with the NES, what would have happened? Honestly, I think the same thing, because Atari was a management disaster. But if they were properly managed and actually listened to their programmers, maybe not. They would have been able to satisfy home gamers with proper arcade ports of new arcade games. I never agreed with this notion that in those years the home computer was king over the video game. Most of America could not afford nor had any use for a home computer. Everybody still had a 2600. However, again I come back to the games. The reason the game market crashed IMO was that there suddenly were no more new, inventive games. They all kept recycling the same games. Nintendo's biggest draw were games like SMB, Zelda, Metroid, Punch out, RC Pro-Am, etc. Games you had never seen the likes of before, even in the arcade. Now if Atari was able to get the Capcoms and Konamis to make games for the 7800 as well, Nintendo would not have been as exclusive. But even so, everybody had to have Super Mario Brothers and the like.

I agree with this post 100%.

My experience: I lived thru the times and played the atari 2600 to death I remember being bored to tears after a few hours playing brand new games. Every game was just a remake of another successful game. My favorite games for the atari system were Nintendo rip offs like Kangeroo or the Donkey Kong games. Every game developed for the Atari system was 1 level except just a little harder than the last and you only played for points. Even if Atari had come out earlier than Nintendo it would have died with out Japanese support. American programmers were probably the most unimaginative designers at the time. We would have just saw more clones with emphasis on high scores instead ofa ctually beating the game.

I do remember playing Super Mario Bros for the 1st time and it was just so new and different from anything we had seen before. I mean it was amazing at the time and this is the game that pretty much changed everything. I remember getting this game before it was packed into the system. This game had been out for awhile and the 7800 never came out with anything close to it.

WHy are people making a big deal about Desert Falcon? I remember playing this game back in the 80's on the 7800. I liked it for like 5 minutes until I realized every level was the same as the last one. I got all excited to play this one again 3 years ago. It was boring then and it is boring now.

[MrSparkle]

Or does someone REALLY like the boxes the NES had for controllers? :/

that someone would be me those "boxes" rock i still have my originals and they went through hell when i was a kid being smashed when playing frustrating games, they never miss a beat. and say what you will but i believe theyre more comfortable than any of ataris controllers EVER.

[Harkunan]

The SNES could do PS3 graphics thankfull for the carts being able to use outside chips like for example ( Dungeon Master, Tales Of Phantasia, Starfox ) so my question is.


Out of all this conception of what is better has anybody considered building a cart that has it's own processor or color upgrade for the darn system.

The NES, SNES, genesis, Master System, Sega Saturn, N64, and PSX all did it why not this system too?

The 7800 can also play past Atari games and the Master System can play Colceo vision games.

If not then the whole feature is doomed?

Then what about the Atari Jaguar is there a upgrade for that to play 7800 games?

I mean Atari was just stone cold when it came to concept gaming and was left with mini games that had no creativity or anything to drive it.

Like Wario for example grew to be even popular then Mario at some point and today is still a way better Mario on the fun scale. Then they released WarioLand Four while being nice it is extremly fun and short compared to the original Wario Land game.

What did Atari had to drive it's games?

From the look of things they just kept on releasing the same exact game over and over again. It is like how Namco keep releasing pac-man or other game like Pac-man but they don't drive.

Take Elevator action became more of a Covert Spy game then just taking the elevator up and down.

Okay I am done sticking up for Atari