First Strike Against XBox 360?

[poopnes]

http://cube.ign.com/articles/606/606538p1.html

One of the biggest selling points for the PS2 was probably the built-in DVD player. The PS3 will have a "next-gen" DVD drive, so naturally it will be able to play the "next-gen" movies.

After digesting this article, I've come to the conclusion that it basically confirms that the 360 will be using standard DVD media. Does anyone else think that this might have a negative impact on the 360 come next year (when the PS3 launches). To the casual gamer, being able to play next-gen games and movies must be a huge selling point. Or will it even matter?

I just wanted to see if anyone else had any thoughts. I don't think its a huge deal, mainly because of the almost required need for a HDTV to get the benefit of the new DVD format. But a feature is a nice feature to have even if you never use it.

[THATinkjar]

I have to admit, I know next to nothing about the new DVD format. It's not something I have much interest in.

What I would say, though, is Microsoft are pushing HDTV harder than anyone else seems to be at this point (perhaps because the 360 is coming out way before the other consoles).

And to boot, if the 360 is coming out September/October/November this year, then it would be impossible for them to include the new format.

[FurinkanianFrood]

The American public isn't ready for next gen DVD.

The added hardware cost is a liability IMO.

And if the movies are gonna take awhile to make any siginificant headway, what kind of game needs 40 or whatever GB of data?

Cinematic garbage sans gameplay perhaps?

And this is coming from someone who enjoys some old FMV games mind you.....

How many people in the US really have HDTVs? I know that as soon as they see this fake-techie techno-yuppies will jump all over that question....

It's not many. I've never seen one in a home, nor do I know anyone who owns one. I don't know anyone who seems interested in buying one either.

Two groups buy these:

1. Only the moron-elite who can afford them because their daddy bought them a degree from Harvard folks....

2. People who really enjoy wasting money....

I thought I was in the second group, but MP3 players, fancy cellphones, PSPs and all the other neoyuppie techno glitter prove otherwise.

Where are all these HDTV's people have in their homes.

The main argument in favor of the Blu-ray aspect of PS3 is that people got on the DVD bandwagon largely as a result of the PS2.

Consider this however:

How many people needed to buy a new TV to watch movies with their PS2? Thought so....

Let's see how many people are gonna spring for a system whose main draw requires a several hundred dollar "add on", and movies that have scarcely started being released.

Let's see: $350 PS3 (conservative est. IMO), $350 TV (by then it will be a bit lower, but probably without a tuner for this price?), 2 x $30 dollar movies, 2 x $50 games ($60?),
$30 extra controller.

A relatively conservative estimate comes to: $890!!?

In an economy that punishes those whose jobs weren't handed to them by the incompetent elite who run nearly everything these days, who can afford this crap?

Sony systems were never worth a damn anyway, despite what the propaganda slaves say. All flash (actually very little, but the appearance of flash, little substance (yeah I know about SoTN and such, there are always exceptions... Though that one still doesn't quite have the substance of an oldschool Cvania).

I can hear them stampeding this way.... The dark forces are gonna yell at me till they are blue in the face.

[Griking]

I don't think I've ever watched a DVD on my Xbox and could care less if the Xbox 2 has that ability or not. I buy a game console to play games, not watch movies, browse the web or listen to audio CDs. These are all cute little extras but they no doubt add to the cost of the hardware and I'd rather my console be affordable and great for playing games than cost extra and do all sorts of things that I have no interest in doing.

[Aprilsrain]

Well, I bought my PS2 because I didn't have a dvd player and I wanted to play final fantasy games. So that definitely made an impact. Of course, I already had an x-box at the time (I was late on the play station bandwagon). Microsoft feels like their hardware's just a little more reliable and their proprietary games tend to be a little better...and I think that they should continue with that instead of trying gimmicks like Sony does.

[goatdan]

Microsoft has stated that Xbox 2 won't have the new drive because Hollywood hasn't decided on a format yet, and it would be a horrible idea for them to invest a ton of money into a format that doesn't happen.

Sony makes their own formats and figures that people will just go with them no matter what... so if they include a new format it could very well be the one that doesn't catch on (Beta, MiniDisc?)

[Darth Sensei]

I've never used a console to play DVD's simply because of how expensive compared to how durable they are. With all the problems people have had with PS2's and to a lesser extent XBOX's why on earth would you use them to watch DVD's when you can get a cheap player for $40 or less?

[goatdan]

Yeah... darn board downtimes. I'll do a lot less double posting when that is fixed, promise :)

[machine.slave]

bah... I don't think it'll be a problem. Most games don't even use a full DVD, and most end-users are still using regular TV's.

[bargora]

For what it's worth, the PS2's DVD playback capability was a key point in persuading my wife that we should get one (or that I should receive one for my birthday in 2001). We didn't have a DVD player, and they were still over $100 back then, IIRC.

Now what was this topic about? Oh, right. I like Xbox. The next one should be good, too.

[Charlesaway]

The American public isn't ready for next gen DVD.

The added hardware cost is a liability IMO.



I agree wholeheartedly there, even being Canadian myself. People are just in the past 2 years getting comfortable with DVD. They don't want to move to something new.




How many people in the US really have HDTVs? I know that as soon as they see this fake-techie techno-yuppies will jump all over that question....

It's not many. I've never seen one in a home, nor do I know anyone who owns one. I don't know anyone who seems interested in buying one either.


Though it's well documented, at least insofar as I can research, that Canadian's adopt these new technologies at a faster rate than the US (see Home Theatre systems, internet, broadband, etc), about 1 in 7 Canadian homes apparently has an HD/HD compatible TV.

I bought mine 2 years ago now, mainly to view DVD's in a more comfortable widescreen format. I don't have an HDTV tuner yet; probably this month. My cable provider offers 24 HD channels already, and they are included in the rental price of the box, or I can get them for free if I purchase the tuner anyhow.

I was the first in my group of friends to purchase one, but now I have 2 other friends (and a number of co-workers) who have their own. I find a penetration rate of 1 in 7 to be a little high, but not much so.



Let's see: $350 PS3 (conservative est. IMO), $350 TV (by then it will be a bit lower, but probably without a tuner for this price?), 2 x $30 dollar movies, 2 x $50 games ($60?),
$30 extra controller.

A relatively conservative estimate comes to: $890!!?

In an economy that punishes those whose jobs weren't handed to them by the incompetent elite who run nearly everything these days, who can afford this crap?


Aside from your point of HDTV (and digital TV) not penetrating the market, I agree with pretty much everything else.

But one final point to remember, or reflect upon, is this: I'd be willing to bet that the hardcore gamer is in of him/herself inherently an early adopter of technology. The first several million next generation DVD players/gaming systems will be going mostly to people who do already have their HDTV, even if they aren't using it as such now. Some prominent research firms have been quoted as estimating well over 10 million HDTV's in American homes by the end of this year. Once a format is settled upon, people will buy it; no matter what the cost.

[goatdan]

For what it's worth, the PS2's DVD playback capability was a key point in persuading my wife that we should get one (or that I should receive one for my birthday in 2001). We didn't have a DVD player, and they were still over $100 back then, IIRC.

Now what was this topic about? Oh, right. I like Xbox. The next one should be good, too.

Yup. The only reason I got an Xbox was for DVD and music capability. After I bought it, I had four games for it for about four months before I started getting into the games.

[DeputyMoniker]

Well I dont think its going to impact the system in the same way cats impacted the 64 but I DO think it will be a handicap when the PS3 and Nintendo it the market. Blu-ray technology isnt really the same thing as minidiscs. Minidiscs would have made it just fine had they lowered the price and gotten enough players into homes before MP3s hit. Now if PS3 hits the market early enough, then I'd like to believe that it would push "Hollywood" towad Blu-ray technology. As a matter of fact, I dont even think PS3 will have to be on the market yet. I think if Sony woud commit to Blu-ray AND commit to a believable release date, "Hollywood" would follow them into the market.
HD-DVD has no support, the only thing that will make HD-DVD happen is if people start buying HD-DVD players. That probably wont happen for a while.
On the other hand, you have Blu-ray. Supported by millions of PS3s that are already in peoples homes. That gives Blu-ray a good start.
Now back on topic, Microsoft abandoned HD-DVD.
I dont think that the decision will ruin the Xbox 360.
Now think about this...
I DO think that this decision has sealed the fate for HD-DVD.
Looking at Nintendos history, they dont ike to pay other companies to license their formats. (CD-i, CD, DVD) So there isnt a very good chance that they will adopt HD-DVD.
Now what reason is there for anyone to assume that HD-DVD is the better format? Blu-ray is ALREADY going to be in our livingrooms!

[sabre2922]

I couldnt care less what format any of them use I will get the system"s" that have the games that I WANT and that interest me its all about the games man ;)

although I do beleive that Sonys Blu-Ray push may be more successful in the end but who knows? and who really cares?

the majority of the WORLD has just now gotten into the full acceptance of DVD while it may be a big thing to us tech geeks the rest of the world simply isnt ready for yet ANOTHER format to watch movies on and most are perfectly happy with current DVD technology both gamers and especailly the non-gamers.

[leonk]

The only reason DVD's are so popular in the first place is because how cheap you can find DVD players.

Why would anyone spend 300$+ on next gen DVD-HD players when they can buy a standard DVD player for less than 40$ these days?

I think the future is in better compressed DVD's than DVD-HD.

Think of it of what MP3's have done to CD's. MP3 players are a heck more popular than the new CD formats.

[john_soper]

although I do beleive that Sonys Blu-Ray push may be more successful in the end but who knows? and who really cares?

I care! HD-DVD is a lousy format, 15GB per layer. The best thing for everyone is that blu-ray (25GB per layer) kills it quickly. They're already talking about compression for the first hi-def HD-DVD movies.
Sales of hdtv sets are ramping up (finally) and will quickly become widespread, look around they don't cost that much. Take the price of color tvs twenty years ago and adjust that for inflation :)
I was happy with both vhs and dvds at the time, but seeing some hd PBS shows made me a believer.

[goatdan]

Well I dont think its going to impact the system in the same way cats impacted the 64 but I DO think it will be a handicap when the PS3 and Nintendo it the market. Blu-ray technology isnt really the same thing as minidiscs. Minidiscs would have made it just fine had they lowered the price and gotten enough players into homes before MP3s hit. Now if PS3 hits the market early enough, then I'd like to believe that it would push "Hollywood" towad Blu-ray technology. As a matter of fact, I dont even think PS3 will have to be on the market yet. I think if Sony woud commit to Blu-ray AND commit to a believable release date, "Hollywood" would follow them into the market.

Minidiscs and beta failed for the same reason. And while we're at it, Apple failed for the same reason -- one company trying to keep a lockdown on the media is not something that is good for consumers, and most importantly Hollywood.

Which by the way, why do you keep putting into quotation marks? If it is to question why I said Hollywood before, what I meant was "the film industry" which ultimately will decide the fate of the next DVD format -- if the film industry decides that they will go with BluRay because consumers can cheaply purchase players, then Blu-Ray will "win." If Sony tries to keep a monopoly on the format instead of letting everyone use it, I really doubt Hollywood will go along with that idea, since it means that Sony will control them.


Now what reason is there for anyone to assume that HD-DVD is the better format? Blu-ray is ALREADY going to be in our livingrooms!

If Blu-Ray is already in our living rooms, but controlled only by one company, I'd tend to opt for the other format myself. We all saw what happened with Apple computers vs. IBM-compatible computers. Apple was nearly driven out of the market because competition kept driving the cost down of IBM-compatible PCs and features kept being added, while Apple stagnated.

Apple has re-appealed to people based on sex-appeal a lot lately and is claiming more of the market. They no longer try to appeal to the market based on a "features" list (the one button mouse, for instance) but instead use this to their advantage. For Apple, it works because ultimately, Apple controls the software that is put onto their machines.

Hollywood controls the movies that are going to be put into these other machines, and if Hollywood doesn't want Sony to have all of the power and if Sony isn't willing to give up the format, I doubt we'll see much in the way of support.

[DeputyMoniker]

Double post...

[DeputyMoniker]

Which by the way, why do you keep putting into quotation marks? If it is to question why I said Hollywood before
I put them there because I felt they belong there. I wasn't questioning anything. I knew what you meant.


If Sony tries to keep a monopoly on the format instead of letting everyone use it, I really doubt Hollywood will go along with that idea, since it means that Sony will control them.


You know, DVD isn't open source. It's owned just like Blu-ray. Anything DVD related requires licensing fees to be paid to Phillips. Phillips then pays the other companies who helped create the DVD standard. Sony is among those who get paid.
CD isnt any different. Niether is Blu-ray. Sony isn't the only company who will be getting paid for Blu-ray, they're just the big guys in charge, much like Phillips is with the DVD standard.

[goatdan]

Which by the way, why do you keep putting into quotation marks? If it is to question why I said Hollywood before
I put them there because I felt they belong there. I wasn't questioning anything. I knew what you meant.

Okay, no problem. I was just confused seeing them there.



If Sony tries to keep a monopoly on the format instead of letting everyone use it, I really doubt Hollywood will go along with that idea, since it means that Sony will control them.

You know, DVD isn't open source. It's owned just like Blu-ray. Anything DVD related requires licensing fees to be paid to Phillips. Phillips then pays the other companies who helped create the DVD standard. Sony is among those who get paid.
CD isnt any different. Niether is Blu-ray. Sony isn't the only company who will be getting paid for Blu-ray, they're just the big guys in charge, much like Phillips is with the DVD standard.

How I understand it (could be wrong...) Phillips is in charge of the DVD encoding, but the hardware itself doesn't pay a license to Phillips. I think that Sony has tended to keep the manufacturing side of things for themselves, which is why people may be more leery about Blu-Ray.

[poopnes]

No need to argue about which format is better, they're joining together to create one format. So it's all null. (That's what the article said). I didn't know that MS had allready decided not to include HD-DVD or BluRay in the 360...I figured they would go with HD-DVD just to go against Sony.

[Anthony1]

In response to your original question, about whether or not the fact that the XBOX 360 won't do HD-DVD or Blue Ray and will that be a big strike against them, actually if anything it will help them out quite a bit in this battle.


High Def DVD players are expected to start showing up around Xmas 2005, and the first players are expected to cost huge jack. Like in the 1 grand range or so. In 2006, as more of them start to trickle out, you will see some closer to $500, but still that's a ton of money.

It's actually pretty mind boggling to think that Sony could put a blu-ray drive in the PS3 and be able to sell it for $299 in late 2006.

If they did that, they would be taking such a huge freaking loss on their PS3's that it would be ridiculous.

Microsoft is well aware of this, and that is why they made the choice to stick with regular DVD and simply go with the dual layer DVD disks. This makes the XBOX 360 much cheaper to manufacture, and it allows them to actually release a unit in late 2005.

The pressure that this is going to put on Sony is going to be tremendous. Microsoft is basically forcing the issue by releasing the 360 ahead of schedule. By releasing that system in November 2005, they force Sony to release their PS3 by late 2006. This is going to put Sony in a very dangerous position, because even by late 2006, you can't have a PS3 with blu ray retail for $299. They would be losing well over $200 on each system sold.


But if they remove blu-ray from the PS3, then they are showing that they are "reacting" to Microsoft, rather then going with their original plan.

Now they could be stubborn and say F whatever Microsoft is doing, and release a blu ray PS3 for $399 in late 2006, but will a $399 console fly in these modern times? $299 seems to be the max for a console to start out at.

Not only that, but if Microsoft really wants to take it to Sony, they can lower the price of the 360 to $249 or even $199 if they want to go with the knockout blow.

e3 2005 is going to be real interesting because we should get some more info regarding the PS3 and Blu Ray, and what Sony is going to do. If they are going to take Blu Ray out of the PS3, they would probably have to announce this in the near future, so that people have time to get over the dissapointment of it being removed.


The bottom line is that things are getting very interesting. The decision by Microsoft to go with a standard DVD media for the XBOX 360 is a huge thing. It has huge ramifications and actually very few of them are negative ramifications towards Microsoft. It actually helps them in alot of ways, and puts tons of pressure on Sony from a price standpoint and a release time standpoint.

[FurinkanianFrood]

It's actually pretty mind boggling to think that Sony could put a blu-ray drive in the PS3 and be able to sell it for $299 in late 2006.

If they did that, they would be taking such a huge freaking loss on their PS3's that it would be ridiculous.

Microsoft is well aware of this, and that is why they made the choice to stick with regular DVD and simply go with the dual layer DVD disks. This makes the XBOX 360 much cheaper to manufacture, and it allows them to actually release a unit in late 2005.


Thanks Anthony, that's exactly what I was trying to say, just phrased in less psychotic manner. Very true.

And for the record, both Sony systems have a couple dozen nice games. I just got sick of their BS and have a funtastic happytime temper about it is all.

Nintendo is dying threads tend to tick me off, and I am awfully defensive about the Jag for some reason.

[DeputyMoniker]

you can't have a PS3 with blu ray retail for $299. They would be losing well over $200 on each system sold.


Microsoft was losing close to that when they released the Xbox.


How I understand it (could be wrong...) Phillips is in charge of the DVD encoding, but the hardware itself doesn't pay a license to Phillips. I think that Sony has tended to keep the manufacturing side of things for themselves, which is why people may be more leery about Blu-Ray.

Nah, manufacturers have to pay also. I got this from the Philips site...

Philips and their partners in these license programs own a number of patents and have a number of patent applications pending relevant to DVD systems, which are licensed by Philips to DVD disc- and player/recorder manufacturers.

Now to get it all into perspective, let me show you two more things I got form the Philips licensing website...

DVD

PHILIPS ELECTRONICS N.V., SONY CORPORATION, PIONEER CORPORATION and LG ELECTRONICS have started a joint patent license program handled by PHILIPS. The license program covers essential patents for DVD-Video and DVD-ROM.

Philips and their partners in these license programs own a number of patents and have a number of patent applications pending relevant to DVD systems, which are licensed by Philips to DVD disc- and player/recorder manufacturers.
By acquiring licenses from Philips under one of the DVD patent license programs, manufacturers will be allowed to use the patents of Philips and their partners for the relevant DVD products.

PHILIPS ELECTRONICS N.V has started a patent license program handled by PHILIPS. The license program covers essential patents for DVD-Video and DVD-ROM.

Philips owns a number of patents and have a number of patent applications pending relevant to DVD systems, which are licensed by Philips to DVD disc- and player/recorder manufacturers. By acquiring licenses from Philips under one of the DVD patent license programs, manufacturers will be allowed to use the patents of Philips for the relevant DVD products.

DVD Video Player and DVD ROM Player

Under the essential patents of Royal Philips Electronics, Sony Corporation, Pioneer Corporation and LG Electronics, Inc. relating to the DVD-Video and the DVD-ROM systems, Philips offers a patent license to manufacturers of DVD players. This combined license is offered as a convenience to interested manufacturers who wish to obtain a license under the patents of Philips, Sony, Pioneer and LGE in a single package. Philips, Sony, Pioneer and LGE also offer separate licenses under their respective patents. For information concerning the conditions of separate licenses under patents of Sony, Pioneer and LGE, please contact the respective companies.


Blu-ray

The distribution of the Blu-ray Disc format specifications, the Format and Logo License Agreement (FLLA) as well as the Content Protection Support Agreement (CPSA) is handled by Sony. The conditions of these activities are as agreed upon by the Blu-ray Disc Founder companies.
The following companies have jointly established the basic specifications for a next generation large capacity optical disc video recording format called "Blu-ray Disc".

Hitachi, Ltd.
LG Electronics Inc.
Matsushita Electric Industrial Co., Ltd.
Mitsubishi Electric Corporation
Pioneer Corporation
Royal Philips Electronics
Samsung Electronics Co., Ltd.
Sharp Corporation
Sony Corporation
Thomson

The Blu-ray disc specifications (by means of an Information Agreement), the Format and Logo License Agreement as well as the Content Protection System Agreement are handled by:

Blu-ray Disc Agent
Shinagawa Interciy C tower 27F,
2-15-3 Konan Minato-ku,
Tokyo, 108-6201
Japan,
E-mail: agent@blu-raydisc.info
Fax: +81-3-5769-5727

for more information see also www.blu-raydisc.info

These activities are performed at conditions agreed upon by these companies.


Really, the only difference is that with Blu-ray, it seems that you cant negotiate with seperate patent holders. Even if you only want to take advantage of one DVD patent, you still have to go through the same people.