IS the Sega of old dead forever?

[sabre2922]

I see rare glimmers of hope with games like Phantasy Star universe etc but all in all what the Hell is Sega doing these days?

I just dont get it no new NIGHTS,Shenmue, Sega Rally,Dayeeetona! Worst of all NO NEW PANZER DRAGOON? or even a remake or Sequel to the masterpiece that is PDSaga? what the Hell happened to the new Vectorman? and why did they destroy Altered beast ?

and now this new Shadow game? a non-hedgehog that looks like a hedgehog with a big freakin gun? I thought it was a joke the first time I saw it O_O I liked him better the way he was presented in Sonic Adventure 2.

Maybe just another rant but I was just curious as to the thoughts of other gamers on this subject if it hasnt already been done specifically on-topic? I searched but...

[Promophile]

Yeah I agree with you. Why aren't we seeing sequels to the good games they put out in the Saturn years? I'd presonally love to see a Sonic Racing Sequel. Loved that game.

[jdc]

I don't thing that you'll see much in the way of Dreamcast-ish stuff any more and you most certainly won't see anything resembling retro. I say "much" because if you toss a copy of Outrun 2 into an Xbox, you'd SWEAR that you were playing a DC using an Xbox controller. Sega rules at bringing arcade cab games into the homes of people who can't obtain/afford arcade cabs. AM2/Yu is awesome, ditto for Sonic Team. Unfortunately they don't produce much stuff.

My view? If a company's gonna die...let 'em die, shove 'em out of the way and make room for the new companies. I don't want the ghost of a once-great company shovelling shit onto the store shelves just because they're "whoever" and still have a tiny pulse. It's a waste of their time and our money.

[Berty]

Sega no longer have the "pleasure" to be able to experiment like they did back in the early nineties. They learnt this lesson the hard way with too many games and even though the games were great, the market response is was poor.

I am with you though, why dont they use thier big guns like deeytona etc?

Alot of the dev studios within sega that created those games are no more now under the yakuza ( i mean sammy ). UGA, Team Andromeda and Hit Maker have now all been combined into Sonic Team and many great minds were lost in the process or are now without a creative voice.

As long as Sega stays out of the home market, there is not going to be any change in this position,... Unfortuneatly.

[Graham Mitchell]

The type of game that Sega is good at (ie-bringing arcade ports home, etc.) is no longer in vogue.
Maybe Sega has abandoned that style in the interest of selling more games. They're probably trying to adjust to the new trends, and it's taking them awhile to adjust.

Shadow the Hedgehog looks kind of retarded to me. I couldn't believe Sonic Team decided to utilize the popularity of GTA or Halo or any other crime/FPS game to sell a Sonic game. It's a new tactic for them (and a pretty icky one, I might add).

[sharp]

Sega has to focus more and more on their results. Yes they had lots of great games, which were expensive to make, but also great to play, and most of them didn't sell that well (Shenmue, Rez). Also rerelease of games like Nights or Panzer Dragoon are no good idea in my opinion. Of course these games are loved by the hardcore gamers, but look at the sales from Panzer Dragoon Orta (which was quite good in my opinion), people just don't buy it.

So to keep it short, I think Sega has no other choice then make more mass-market games. Ofcourse almost everone here would like to see different, but that's not reality. Anyway I think we can still see some good arcadeports from them and PSU also looks intresting. Oh and about the creativity Sega is still lightyears in front of EA.

[InsaneDavid]

Up until recently I had one of the last Sega retailer reference guides from vendors back when I was doing game retail and the Dreamcast was still at full steam. "Daytona 3" shows up all the time in Dreamcast upcoming release guides, again, as TBA. (some say that Daytona USA on the Dreamcast - AKA Daytona 2001 - was what the game became) Simply put, not enough people purchased the Dreamcast release of Daytona USA for Sega to put anything behind it again. Which is a shame since Daytona USA on the Dreamcast was a loving celebration of the greatest arcade racing franchise of all time.

Another thing about Sega not having an in-house console development anymore is development and turn around time is REALLY SLOW. For instance in the official XBox vendor guide from 2002 OutRun 2 is already listed as TBA. Now should it really take TWO YEARS to port over something like OutRun 2, seriously. ..still wonder what happened to the XBox Ridge Racer game for 2002 however (that's Namco, I know).

..off topic - I have a spare PlayStation Retailer Reference Guide if anyone is interested, last updated a year or so after the PS2 launch - PM me if interested.

[Elusive]

The 'Sega of old' you refer to is their tactic of bringing the arcade experience home: from Altered Beast, OutRun, etc. through to (do-do-do-do-do-do-dodo-do-doooo...) Daytonaaaaa! LOL That just won't work now; when you've got ten-year-olds buying GTA and Halo, who wants imaginative gaming? Sega are being forced to appeal to the lowest common denominator, as Sony did in the mid-nineties (which brought aout the accursed casual gamer, grr), Hence Shadow the Hedgehog et al. There's no chance of a new Sega console, either - no-one outside the hardcore demographic would buy it, simply because it'd be prejudged along their previous commercial failures.

However, things are looking up. Treasure are signed up to produce the Gunstar Heroes sequel, and a couple of other classic games brought up to date like Afterburner. Classic compilations are selling like hot cakes in the UK; Sonic Mega Collection (and the later Plus release) sold millions. There are talks of a NiGHTS Into Dreams... release for the DS, or a straight-out sequel. Out Run 2 is proving a hit on the XBox. The Gamehompo service in Japan is doing well. And with Sammy's huge cashflow, who knows what's next?

[DynastyLawyer]

I just dont get it no new NIGHTS,Shenmue, Sega Rally,Dayeeetona! Worst of all NO NEW PANZER DRAGOON? or even a remake or Sequel to the masterpiece that is PDSaga? what the Hell happened to the new Vectorman? and why did they destroy Altered beast ?

I asked Sega about your concerns*, and here is what they had to say:

"Dear Sabre2922,

We appreciate your fandom of our company, but we would like to officially deny that we are dead forever. We're more like an undead zombie, who slowly shuffles to put out good games, just like everyone else in the present videogame industry.

We are hesitant to release new games after we went bankrupt trying to buy back a few copies of Panzer Dragoon Saga on ebay. No matter what creative genius we engage in as a company, it will not contend with running over aliens in tanks, nor will it have any tie-ins to the mafia. Therefore, it will not sell.

Should we fail to make a good game that does not sell, it will be of no consequence. Poor games are released every Tuesday, availiable at your local Gamestop (Note well, not Electronics Boutique). We are more concerned about what would happen if we released a good game in limited supply. Quite frankly, we are sick and tired of gamers retroactively saying our games are classics, ignoring efforts we are currently releasing, only to later buy them for three times the price from a scalper. If you morons were so content to pay 100 bucks for Panzer Dragoon Saga, why didn't you buy two copies when the game was released? If we are to see another GUNSTAR HEROS ULTRA RARE BEST GAME EVER L@@K! auction on Ebay, we will be physically ill.

Best wishes for the summer,
Electronic Arts"

*Libel Disclaimer: I've never REALLY corresponded with Sega in my life. Aside from talking to a fish/man.

[MegaDrive20XX]

It's all about management. Whoever is running the show for Sega of America is doing yet another banged up job.

They only release games that seem to gain profit instead of what a small fan base would like to see.

Sega of Japan on the otherhand, is giving the people the goods. Since Japanese gamers are more die-hard in the Sega scene.

Sega of Old isn't dead to me....just abandoned and SOA isn't really doing much to revive it.

Milking the Sonic cash cow is really sad. Sonic is not Pac-Man...yet obviously Sega is treating this character as such.

In one point of this, I'm happy they don't, because you can't mess with the original by a landslide. Hard to top off what made them so wonderful.

Then in another point of this, I'm sad, because the future generation will never know the true beauty that is "Nights" or "Altered Beast" or "Panzer Dragoon".

[slip81]

I'd have to agree with what Sharp said. It seems that Sega maybe too afraid to release updates to their once popular franchises because no one buys them.

In the last few years we've has sequels to Panzer Dragoon, Shining Force, Sonic, Altered Beast, OutRun, Shenmue, and while they are all decent games worth playing IMO, none of them really sold that well. It seems the only license they have succefully ressurected is Phantasy Star.

It comes as no suprise to me that Sega doesn't want to deal with old franchises or new innovative games. They've had so much bad luck in the past despite the fact that they can make great games and hardware, they're probably just trying to stay in business right now.

[chrisbid]

the sega of old still shines in what remains of arcades, check out their horse racing game, there are crowds of people playing that whenever i go to Dave and Busters. with its breeding type system, i think it could be reworked as a good home game

[Ed Oscuro]

Sega has to focus more and more on their results. Yes they had lots of great games, which were expensive to make, but also great to play, and most of them didn't sell that well (Shenmue, Rez).
Rez wasn't expensive, and surely has been a breadwinner for the company.

[joshnickerson]

For me, Sega died the day they announced "Shadow The Hedgehog", though they've done everything wrong this generation anyway.

[DynastyLawyer]

For me, Sega died the day they announced "Shadow The Hedgehog", though they've done everything wrong this generation anyway.

If Panzer Dragoon Orta and Shinobi were wrong, I don't want to be right.

[InsaneDavid]

It's all about management. Whoever is running the show for Sega of America is doing yet another banged up job.

I hope this isn't the case currently, I was at Sega of America for most of 1999 and it seemed that the overseeing Japanese home office was who kept sweeping in and mucking things up at the last moment.

[GaijinPunch]

Rez wasn't expensive, and surely has been a breadwinner for the company.

The music licenses no doubt were not cheap. Probably more than the other development costs combined.

[joshnickerson]

For me, Sega died the day they announced "Shadow The Hedgehog", though they've done everything wrong this generation anyway.

If Panzer Dragoon Orta and Shinobi were wrong, I don't want to be right.

Their big mistake with Orta was releasing it on the Xbox, where no one gave two s***s about it.

[Cryomancer]

And I see this thread goes by with no mention of Toejam and Earl III. So yeah, they ARE doing some updates just they aren't selling too great.

I just hold out faith that sega lives until adn through the moment when gaming is no longer a fad / next market crash, and then goes on to deliver the real stuff to those still buying consoles in the wake.

[zmweasel]

I just hold out faith that sega lives until adn through the moment when gaming is no longer a fad / next market crash, and then goes on to deliver the real stuff to those still buying consoles in the wake.

Video games haven't been considered a "fad" in 20 years. They've long since entered the entertainment mainstream.

And there's absolutely no chance of a crash to rival the '83-'84 meltdown, although the consolidation of the industry, with larger publishers buying smaller publishers and development studios, will certainly continue.

And what's the "real stuff"? Hardcore-oriented "gamer's games"? SEGA has been publishing those pretty consistently since it went software-only, which is much of the reason it's a second/third-string publisher instead of a rival to EA and Rockstar.

-- Z.

[Zadoc]

Sega's problem is management. They're company is set up like a confederacy, with a very weak central government, and with all of the power in the states, (in this case, the states are the individual development studios).

Since Sega give each studio absolute power of their product, they shot themselves in the foot the minute that they anounced that strategy.

What we have now is a terrible system in which one team creates a Sonic game, but only releases it on Gamecube ignoring the PS2 and Xbox. And then we have a Crazy Taxi release on Xbox, ignoring the PS2 and Gamecube. And now there's Phantasy Star and Shining Force being released on PS2 ignoring Xbox and Gamecube. (And it's just plain stupid not to release Phantasy Star on *the* online gaming console.)

Sega needs to act like a strong federal government and bitch slap its development studios into doing what needs to be done. They need to start truely being platform agnostic. This "pick and choose" garbage is killing them.

They better get their shit together for the next generation, because they've already blown this one.

[pragmatic insanester]

altered beast is availible in japan. vectorman was cancelled, and it looked like shit. he wasn't made of balls or whatever, more like a kraigy first-generation ps2 robot. sega's let me down with the new "dark" hedgehog concept, and the horrible combo stateside with goldenaxe and outrun remakes.


where is streets of rage 4?

[zmweasel]

vectorman was cancelled, and it looked like shit. he wasn't made of balls or whatever, more like a kraigy first-generation ps2 robot.

I got to interview the lead designer and programmer of the Vectorman update a few E3s ago, and it was immediately obvious they were missing the point. The programmer (who was the buffest coder I've ever met -- he must've been working with Barry Bonds' trainer) talked about making the game like Red Faction II, with a focus on destructible environments, while the designer talked at length about his pencil-and-paper RPG background.


where is streets of rage 4?

The mediocre Xbox beat-'em-up SpikeOut is as close as you're gonna get.

-- Z.

[PentiumMMX]

altered beast is availible in japan. vectorman was cancelled, and it looked like shit. he wasn't made of balls or whatever, more like a kraigy first-generation ps2 robot. sega's let me down with the new "dark" hedgehog concept, and the horrible combo stateside with goldenaxe and outrun remakes.


where is streets of rage 4?

There is a Streets of Rage 3? What System is it on?

BTW,the more I think about Shadow the Hedgehog, the more I'd rather buy a Dreamcast and play Sonic Adventure. Sega went down the crapper after canceling Altered Beast and Vectorman 3

[Raccoon Lad]

Sega will make a comeback, mark my words.


It may not be for a while, but untill video gamers get sick of "3D crap", I'm sure Sega will just lie low and build up equity.

There will be a "crash", of which I am certain, but it will be subtle. When this happens, companies will take more time to make sure their games are fun, and when this comes to pass, Sega shall rise again!

[Graham Mitchell]

There is a Streets of Rage 3? What System is it on?


Streets of Rage 3 is on the Genesis, silly! :D


Sega will make a comeback, mark my words.


It may not be for a while, but untill video gamers get sick of "3D crap", I'm sure Sega will just lie low and build up equity.

There will be a "crash", of which I am certain, but it will be subtle. When this happens, companies will take more time to make sure their games are fun, and when this comes to pass, Sega shall rise again!

It isn't going to happen; there will be no crash. The video game business is pretty much indestructible now thanks to the big-money console publishers like EA and Rockstar. Those 2 publishers could probably support the whole industry by themselves. Your average person will never get tired of the "3D crap". Are people tired of shit movies that Hollywood cranks out over and over again without even thinking about what they're releasing? No. Are people tired of watered-down pop music? Shitty, soulless rock'n'roll like Limp Bizkit? No.

Your average person doesn't think about their entertainment; they take what's handed to them. The sad part is that those who don't think about the artistry of what they're consuming greatly outnumber those that do. So what did the artsy folks do about this in music and film? Go underground. They make their own music and movies cheaply, and set up their own networks to support it. Some of the art they produce is so good that the big boys end up buying it off them (look how much money Nirvana is making for people other than Sub Pop or the Cobain estate). Something comparable needs to happen in video games, and soon, or the whole thing will be controlled by Electronic "Arts". There needs to be a platform where quality, innovative and inspired games can be made for WAY LESS money and manpower than it takes to make a PS2 game (which is in the mulimillion dollar range for a total turd now). I look at the DS or the Gameboy Advance and I think that's kind of the only option right now for such a thing.

There will be no crash. Deal with it.

[Raccoon Lad]

It doesn't need to be a crash, just a lull, followed few good selling innovative games.

[InsaneDavid]

For me, Sega died the day they announced "Shadow The Hedgehog", though they've done everything wrong this generation anyway.

If Panzer Dragoon Orta and Shinobi were wrong, I don't want to be right.

Their big mistake with Orta was releasing it on the Xbox, where no one gave two s***s about it.

I have to agree, people can't seriously think that if it was released on the PS2 it wouldn't have been a smash hit. Most of the mainstream general XBox owners bought the console to play games like Halo - a continuation of an amazing historical Sega franchise is something they're simply not going to care about.


And I see this thread goes by with no mention of Toejam and Earl III. So yeah, they ARE doing some updates just they aren't selling too great.

Again, I still think it would have done a lot better had it been on the PS2. I never expected Toejam & Earl III to sell at a spectacular rate since the originals were niche games, but it still should have done better - same with Jet Set Radio Future.


Sega's problem is management. They're company is set up like a confederacy, with a very weak central government, and with all of the power in the states, (in this case, the states are the individual development studios).

Since Sega give each studio absolute power of their product, they shot themselves in the foot the minute that they anounced that strategy.

What we have now is a terrible system in which one team creates a Sonic game, but only releases it on Gamecube ignoring the PS2 and Xbox. And then we have a Crazy Taxi release on Xbox, ignoring the PS2 and Gamecube. And now there's Phantasy Star and Shining Force being released on PS2 ignoring Xbox and Gamecube. (And it's just plain stupid not to release Phantasy Star on *the* online gaming console.)

Again, I have to agree. Sega needed to give a little more flexibility to their development houses but 100% free reign in every aspect is BS. I think Phantasy Star and Shining Force will do BETTER on the PS2 than they would have done on the XBox for the reason I mentioned above. Also I'm sure another reason of this was that Microsoft has pretty much dropped 90% behind the scenes XBox development support more than a year ago for XBox 360 development. (they just can't be happy with screwing up the industry ONCE, they gotta try to do it again) Why Crazy Taxi 3 wasn't cross platform was a stupid move especially after the Crazy Taxi port on the GameCube. Given the last few Sonic games however, Sega did themselves a favor by not wasting the money to port them over to the other consoles. LOL

[zmweasel]

Something comparable needs to happen in video games, and soon, or the whole thing will be controlled by Electronic "Arts". There needs to be a platform where quality, innovative and inspired games can be made for WAY LESS money and manpower than it takes to make a PS2 game (which is in the mulimillion dollar range for a total turd now). I look at the DS or the Gameboy Advance and I think that's kind of the only option right now for such a thing.

"Independent" games will never happen on consoles. That possibility went away when Nintendo introduced lockout chips and manufacturing fees with the NES.

There's a healthy indy-game scene for the PC, however. Game Developers Conference sponsors a yearly indy-game exhibition/competition, and while there's a generous amount of derivative crap from college kids obviously looking to get hired by EA, there's also been some very cool stuff.

Katamari Damacy is revered by game developers -- especially indies -- not only because it's so damn good, but because it was made on a modest budget by a modestly sized devteam. But what are the odds of that development model catching on with North American publishers, or even with other Japanese publishers? Nil.

But this is mightily digressing from the issue of why SEGA can't figure out what North American gamers want. Let's face it: Shadow the Hedgehog is SEGA throwing up its hands and saying "We just don't know."

-- Z.

[Cthulhu]

If Sega is going to churn out garbage, let them die. Screw it. Can they "save" themselves? Of course they can. Will they? Probably not. The games they are forcing out the door now are hopelessly flawed, and I see no indication of that changing.

3D will never go "out of vogue." No crash, no lull, no nothing. Average Joe/Jane consumer isn't looking for 2D, period. He avoids it intentionally. 2D says nothing but "old" to most people. It doesn't matter how many games "gamers" buy each year - there are enough faceless, nameless average people who buy a couple games a year to make them the preferred audience. Go buy the games you like when they come out, and don't buy what you don't want.

[Moon Patrol]

I would really wait until the next gen consoles come out before making a claim of whether Sega isn't as good as it used to be or not. A lot of new technologies, as usual, are being put to the test, and if they don't do well, then that will leave some room for that underdog to pop-up and scream "HERE I AM!"

[zmweasel]

I would really wait until the next gen consoles come out before making a claim of whether Sega isn't as good as it used to be or not. A lot of new technologies, as usual, are being put to the test, and if they don't do well, then that will leave some room for that underdog to pop-up and scream "HERE I AM!"

So you're saying SEGA has a chance to rebound by reinventing itself by launching new franchises alongside the next generation of consoles, since its current franchises have run out of steam? Kind of like what EA did with SSX for the PS2? I'd love to see it happen, but I don't know that SEGA can wean itself off its aged IPs.

-- Z.

[kainemaxwell]

Never know, could be possible like with T*HQ. *shrug

[zmweasel]

Never know, could be possible like with T*HQ. *shrug

True, but THQ has used cartoon and wrestling licenses to establish itself as a major player, not original IPs. Would SEGA be willing to churn out mainstream/tie-in stuff to fund its quirky/hardcore stuff?

-- Z.

[Push Upstairs]

There is a Streets of Rage 3? What System is it on?

:hmm:



I feel the Sega of old "died" with the Dreamcast. I look forward to buying "Outrun 2" however.

I know they still have some talent so i hope they can avoid cramming Sonic into various games ala what Nintendo does with Mario.

I think the problem is that Sega lacks guidance.

[pragmatic insanester]

i wish there were sequels to games like Ring of Red and Disaster Report. <3. There is some good news though, as to the current generation big players. remember that juggernaut tomb raider and the company behind it last century? if people make crap games or over-repeditive stuff, even a large stupid audience will go ADD and desert the beast whore's tit.

[zmweasel]

I know they still have some talent so i hope they can avoid cramming Sonic into various games ala what Nintendo does with Mario.

Waaaaay too late for that, man. Did you not notice Sonic Shuffle, Sonic Battle, Sonic R, etc.?

-- Z.

[Push Upstairs]

Lets return to my comment the moment Sonic Shuffle 5 & Sonic R 3 come out ;)


It hasnt (yet) reached the "excessive" point that Nintendo has taken "Itsa Mario!" to.

[zmweasel]

It hasnt (yet) reached the "excessive" point that Nintendo has taken "Itsa Mario!" to.

So you wouldn't agree that this list of North American game releases from the Online Rarity Guide indicates an "excessive" use of the character?

Sonic Adventure (DC)
Sonic Adventure DX (GC)
Sonic Adventure 2 (DC)
Sonic Adventure 2: Battle (GC)
Sonic Shuffle
Sonic Advance
Sonic Advance 2
Sonic Advance 3
Sonic Battle
Sonic Pinball Party
Sonic Blast
Sonic Chaos
Sonic Drift 2
Sonic Labyrinth
Sonic Spinball (GG)
Sonic Spinball (Gen)
Sonic the Hedgehog (GG)
Sonic the Hedgehog (SMS)
Sonic the Hedgehog (Gen)
Sonic the Hedgehog 2 (GG)
Sonic the Hedgehog 2 (Gen)
Sonic the Hedgehog 3
Sonic the Hedgehog: Triple Trouble (GG)
Sonic Mega Collection (GC)
Sonic Mega Collection Plus (PS2)
Sonic & Knuckles
Sonic 3D Blast
Sonic Classics
Sonic N
Sonic the Hedgehog Pocket Adventure
Sonic Heroes
Sonic 3D Blast
Sonic Jam
Sonic R
Sonic CD

Sonic had two things going for him back in the day: speed and "attitude." The former was rendered moot by advancing technology (quick-scrolling backgrounds aren't a breathtaking marvel in 2005), and the latter was rendered moot by M-rated titles (Sonic was remarkably edgy 15 years ago, but compared to the protagonists of God of War and GTA: Vice City, he's just a silly cartoon).

-- Z.

[Ed Oscuro]

I'm not quite sure how to describe the magic formula, but something's decimated Sonic's reputation, something that goes beyond the constant use of the character. He's doing even worse than Mario, in my eyes. It's amusing that Nintendo's B-list spacesuited heroine would eventually surpass Sonic in pretty much every way imaginable - well, everybody seems to be aware of this but the folks at Sega themselves.

The funny thing is that back when the days of the SMS had ended, Sega was quick to distance itself from the Alex Kidd games by killing off the characters (the gravestones in Altered Beast say as much); but as their arcade heroes weren't capturing the public imagination they invented Sonic...now that Sonic's day has come and gone, it's interesting that Sega seems the very last party to want to acknowledge this.

You know what? The request shouldn't have been to stop making hardware only. It should've been to sideline Sonic and bring some mass appeal back into Sega. Sega was awesome, as you might remember, back when it was about screaming in your ear and beaking the competition in half. You can accuse Nintendo of being a company that makes kiddie games, but Sega seems suffocatingly sugar-coated these days (even Pocket Kingdom, despite its fake-elite speak...argh).

[RCM]

I just dont get it no new NIGHTS,Shenmue, Sega Rally,Dayeeetona! Worst of all NO NEW PANZER DRAGOON? or even a remake or Sequel to the masterpiece that is PDSaga? what the Hell happened to the new Vectorman? and why did they destroy Altered beast ?

and now this new Shadow game? a non-hedgehog that looks like a hedgehog with a big freakin gun? I thought it was a joke the first time I saw it I liked him better the way he was presented in Sonic Adventure 2.

I don't know if it's been released yet but Sega Rally has been in development for PS2. Shenmue 3 is rumored to be in development as an MMORPG. Panzer Dragoon Orta came out in the states a little over 2 years ago and I consider it the best title for Xbox, Ps2, and GC. Meaning it's the best in this gen, I know it's not for PS2 and GC

As for the others, I wouldn't mind a new Daytona. But besides graphics would it really go beyond it's predecessors? I really want a new NiGHts title for sure. But the original is 9 years old now. The sequel would truly have to be spectacular to even approach my expectations.

As for Shadow, i'm not thrilled either. Sonic can't get his own game but Shadow can? Come on Sega.


In the last few years we've has sequels to Panzer Dragoon, Shining Force, Sonic, Altered Beast, OutRun, Shenmue, and while they are all decent games worth playing IMO, none of them really sold that well. It seems the only license they have succefully ressurected is Phantasy Star.

I can't speak for the other franchises, but Sonic still sells well. Heros sold well over a million, I swear it was 1.5 million copies worldwide last time i checked. It's been a while. Nothing compared to his heyday, but not horrible either. The Sonic series has also sold very well on GBA.


Their big mistake with Orta was releasing it on the Xbox, where no one gave two s***s about it.

Play magazine said something to the effect that Sega put a lot of great titles on Xbox before Xbox hit its stride. I agree with that statement on some levels. But it also implies that these titles would have been huge sellers. Would Orta have sold a million copies on Xbox now? Doubtful.

Sega must begin to appeal to mainstream gamers once again to continue and be any kind of relevant force in the industry. But how? Clearly it can't by merely making triple A titles. Blood Will Tell was an attempt at a new franchise and ive heard nothing positive as far as sales. Sega made a tremendous effort to get great games on DC. They came out with awesome sequels and a few great new franchises that really never took off the way they should have like Crazy Taxi and Jet Set Radio. I do dig the solid partnership they have going with Treasure. Perhaps it would be wise to buy them and maybe hand a few of Sega's franchises off to them. NiGHTS 2 developed by Treasure would be an orgasm. My lordy. Feel the Magic was a pretty awesome game too, the novelty still hasn't left me. Good luck to Sega, they need it. Radica controllers can only supply them with so much cash!

THE ONE, THE ONLY - RCM

[InsaneDavid]

As for the others, I wouldn't mind a new Daytona. But besides graphics would it really go beyond it's predecessors?

The same way Daytona USA on the Dreamcast did. Add a few new circuits (3 brand new ones were added in Daytona USA on the DC - Circuit Pixie, Rin Rin Rink, and Mermaid Lake) a couple new car models, and toss in refined online play (anyone such as myself that played Daytona USA on the SegaNet knows it was GREAT but there was way too much drop-out that effected the world ranking). NOTHING has been done with the circuits from Daytona 2 and while yes, the game wasn't spectacular, circuits can still be integrated over or at least added as a seperate mode. What it comes down to is Daytona USA is STILL fun to play in the arcade, can STILL earn $1 per credit (at least the large hydraulic projection screen networked machines) in most arcades, and STILL have tons of playtime logged on them to this day. How many arcade games from 1994 can you say that about?

...who knows, 3DAges remade Virtua Racing, is a straight port of the Model 2 arcade version of Daytona USA with online play in the works? Probably not, but it could always happen.

If there is one thing over all Sega has always done well it is arcade titles and then bringing them home. Large sitdown driving games are one of the few remaining genres that still generate solid revenue in arcades worldwide. Daytona 3 could make the company some decent money - the original Daytona USA and Super GT (SCUD Race) certainly still do.

[Ed Oscuro]

As for Shadow, i'm not thrilled either. Sonic can't get his own game but Shadow can? Come on Sega.
Heh, Sonic's got approximately a billion others to fall back on.

Shenmue 3 is going to be released in China (or was that Taiwan, or both?), and what's being rumored is whether or not it shows up here.

[Tron 2.0]

Something comparable needs to happen in video games, and soon, or the whole thing will be controlled by Electronic "Arts". There needs to be a platform where quality, innovative and inspired games can be made for WAY LESS money and manpower than it takes to make a PS2 game (which is in the mulimillion dollar range for a total turd now). I look at the DS or the Gameboy Advance and I think that's kind of the only option right now for such a thing.

"Independent" games will never happen on consoles. That possibility went away when Nintendo introduced lockout chips and manufacturing fees with the NES.

There's a healthy indy-game scene for the PC, however. Game Developers Conference sponsors a yearly indy-game exhibition/competition, and while there's a generous amount of derivative crap from college kids obviously looking to get hired by EA, there's also been some very cool stuff.

Katamari Damacy is revered by game developers -- especially indies -- not only because it's so damn good, but because it was made on a modest budget by a modestly sized devteam. But what are the odds of that development model catching on with North American publishers, or even with other Japanese publishers? Nil.

But this is mightily digressing from the issue of why SEGA can't figure out what North American gamers want. Let's face it: Shadow the Hedgehog is SEGA throwing up its hands and saying "We just don't know."

-- Z.
Right Sega is in a state confusement at the moment.

Untile they figure out where there going things... will not improve at all.

Right now there attitude is any thing that go's of corse. It's been like this 'since the days of the, Saturn piss poor mangement i'm telling ya x_x

[Elusive]

Bring back the 'SEGA!' scream. LOL

[kainemaxwell]

Never know, could be possible like with T*HQ. *shrug

True, but THQ has used cartoon and wrestling licenses to establish itself as a major player, not original IPs. Would SEGA be willing to churn out mainstream/tie-in stuff to fund its quirky/hardcore stuff?

-- Z.
That's the question that the head businessmen of SEGA can only answer if possible.

[goatdan]

All right, a whole bunch of comments for this thread:

First off, there is a reason that Sega hasn't pulled off anything that is truly wacky and strange but sweet lately... Because they aren't pushing hardware. When Sega was pushing the Dreamcast (and Saturn and Genesis), they had to come up with properties that would make people buy the hardware. It wasn't as big of a deal if a game sold as many copies as long as it was moving hardware. Seaman and Jet Set Radio got out the door because Sega figured that they could move a lot of hardware with each game. If a game sells only 25,000 copies, but moves 15,000 systems, that is a success.

Now, Sega doesn't have to care about the success of moving systems. That is why Microsoft was willing to offer Sega such good deals for Sega to exclusively license some of their games for the Xbox. Microsoft needed to move hardware, and games like Panzer Dragoon Orta, Jet Grind Radio Future and Crazy Taxi 3 were games that gamers would look at and make decisions on which console to purchase because of them. Hell, they sure weighed in on my decision to get an Xbox.

So Microsoft cut them what I'm sure was a really good deal for those games, and even though those games didn't sell like wildfire, it seems like Microsoft was happy with them. Hell, they bundled Sega GT / JGRF with the Xbox for a holiday season even!

Now, about Sonic and Shadow and all that fun stuff. First, lets look at how people are saying that the Sonic series fell off: Wrong. Sonic is still a good selling property for Sega, and as long as they can keep quality games coming out, why wouldn't they keep making them? Sega hasn't pimped Sonic *lately* for his character in other games, and as a platformer it is very strong. If you combine the sales of the Dreamcast and GameCube versions of Sonic Adventure 1 and 2, they sold about a combined 3.5 million games. That's excellent.

As for the Shadow thing, the play mechanics of the Sonic games were changed completely with the E-102 (or whatever number) robot from Sonic Adventure. Suddenly, there was this interesting play mechanic that was liked so much that two characters from the next game (Tails and Robotnik) had levels that played just like them. Personally, I *loved* E-102's levels, but found the Tails / Robotnik levels to be a drag. That having been said, this Shadow thing sounds interesting.

And other Sonic character's have had their own games before when the demand was there for it. There was Tail's Adventure on the GameGear and Knuckles Chaotix on the 32X. This is a normal expansion of the Sonic universe, and it either won't work or it will sell well enough to justify it. Personally, I'm very interested by it -- I just beat Sonic Adventure 2 this weekend, and I would like to know more about Shadow. Heck, the ending of Sonic Adventure 2 was set up so you wanted to know more about Shadow. It makes sense so far. Let's reserve judgement until it's out.

About them not making as good software right now, whoever it was that posted that when we are in the next generation, prices will rise on the current gen stuff and people will complain that they aren't doing enough like the last generation... I think you're dead on. Let's take a look at some of Sega's updated / popular franchises that are on the current consoles:

Beach Spikers (GameCube) - Sega brings the fun of Virtua Tennis to the beach... with babes!

Gun Valkyrie (Xbox) - An innovative little niche title that seems to have been skipped over by nearly everyone.

Headhunter: Redemption (PS2 / Xbox) - For some reason, Sega let Acclaim publish the first Headhunter in the US, but this game proves that Amuze has some great abilities, and the production quality is outstanding. Had this game been pushed more, it would've been huge.

House of the Dead III (Xbox) - Sega brings the only light gun game to a console, and it does amazingly well on it. A huge success, and a good continuation of the series.

Jet Set Radio Future (Xbox) - This game did really well for the Xbox, and was great fun to boot. A lot of the fans were leery of the new play mechanics though (not having to "draw" the graffitti.)

Otogi and Otogi 2 (Xbox) - Both games that are critically acclaimed although not huge successes.

OutRun 2 (Xbox) - I heard from a very reliable source that Sega had canned bringing this out for any console until Microsoft convinced them otherwise and made it very worth their while for it to be an Xbox exclusive. An excellent game, although it didn't sell nearly as many copies as Sega or Microsoft were hoping for.

Shenmue II (Xbox) - This game didn't do so well. With development costs in the hundreds of millions, why oh why would Sega throw money at completing it? Again -- they don't have hardware sales to give them reason to do things that won't make them money.

Shinobi (PS2) - An update to the classic ninja game... Very, very well done, but it didn't have nearly the advertising budget that Ninja Gaiden did, so it didn't sell as well.

Shining Force (PS2) - People have complained about it, but it is an update to the Shining Force series.

Space Channel 5: Special Edition (PS2) - The game didn't sell well at all, but Sega still brought out Space Channel 5: 2 in the US.

Spikeout: Battle Street (Xbox) - Say what you will about this game, but Sega marketed it PERFECTLY. The "only 3000" business at the start made sure that everyone heard about it, and it is much more known about because of it. Personally, I love it too.

Super Monkey Ball 1 & 2 (GameCube) - A completely new franchise for the GameCube that did AMAZINGLY well. The games are tough as nails, cute and the characters are recognizable. A HUGE success.

Toe Jam and Earl (Xbox) - An attempt at an update to one of the classics that everyone usually cites as the "real" Sega. Sold horribly. Go figure.

Virtua Fighter 4 (PS2) - The classic series that started on the Saturn has its fourth installment land on the PS2.

Virtual On Marz (PS2) - The popular-with-the-hardcore, not-with-the-masses series of Virtual On lands on the PS2.

---

Missing from that list is things that are obvious, like the EPSN series and so on. But to say that Sega is "dead" or a "shell of their former self" is something that I feel is wildly inaccurate. There are a LOT of great games that have come out from them that have either been overlooked by the general public (Panzer Dragoon Orta, Virtual On Marz, Headhunter: Redemption) as well as games that were new that did okay.

Sega is doing fine. They are selling enough software to happily get by. And they haven't abandoned what they did best in the older days. Some of the updated franchises haven't proven to be popular (Panzer Dragoon, Toe Jam and Earl, OutRun 2) and that is just progress. Sega hasn't brought out a new Sega Rally, Daytona or Nights, but I don't know if they need too. Nights didn't even sell that well on the Saturn, why would they be all over jumping on bringing that into this generation when the games I named above weren't huge successes.

Sega is doing just fine. And I expect a lot more excellent games out of them in the future. I haven't found many games that have the word SEGA on the cover that I haven't liked, and if you go through what they have actually released for the current consoles, I think you'll find the same thing. Sure, they don't have a Grand Theft Auto or Halo under their belts, but they don't have too. They have been doing just fine so far.

I'll miss the innovation that came with them wanting to move hardware, but I definitely don't miss the games... Sega still hasn't let me down there. I have yet to find a Sega produced game I hate. You just have to look around to appreciate what they have had.

[DynastyLawyer]

I have to agree, people can't seriously think that if it was released on the PS2 it wouldn't have been a smash hit. Most of the mainstream general XBox owners bought the console to play games like Halo - a continuation of an amazing historical Sega franchise is something they're simply not going to care about.


I can seriously think if it was released on the PS2 it wouldn't have been a smash hit. First off Panzer Dragoon Saga didn't sell worth crap, but it started a wave of: "Oh, wow, this is a really good game. All the cool kids play this game." And thus it sells on Ebay.

I think your problem is you're seriously underestimating the people who bought an Xbox. While I can't assume to say a lot of mainstream MTV watchers didn't buy an Xbox based upon the merits of Halo, a Sega fan had a lot of reasons to endorse Xbox from the get-go. Shenmue II, Panzer Dragoon Orta, Sega GT, Jet Set Radio Future? Not to mention a bunch of sequels to Dreamcast games, like DOA3. For a while, you might have called the Xbox the Dreamcast 2. I pretty much bought an Xbox FOR Panzer Dragoon Orta.

I have heard nothing but speculation upon why Panzer Dragoon Orta, a game that didn't sell fantastically on the Xbox, would miraculously become a best seller when put on the PS2, a system with gamers just as trendy.

[zmweasel]

First off, there is a reason that Sega hasn't pulled off anything that is truly wacky and strange but sweet lately... Because they aren't pushing hardware.

So you're saying that SEGA considered Seaman and Jet Set Radio to be system-sellers? They're wonderfully quirky games, but they have no casual/mainstream/American appeal, and they didn't sell Dreamcasts in North America.

SEGA's Feel the Magic XY/XX is one of the quirkiest games for the Nintendo DS, but it sure ain't selling that system in the States.


If you combine the sales of the Dreamcast and GameCube versions of Sonic Adventure 1 and 2, they sold about a combined 3.5 million games. That's excellent.

I don't think anyone's disputing that Sonic remains a viable, if lessened, IP; he's just lost the things that made him unique (and interesting) 15 years ago.


That having been said, this Shadow thing sounds interesting.

Everyone's dismay with the game stems from that awful, awful illustration of Shadow holding a gun. It's pure, insulting pandering to fans of mature gaming.


Let's take a look at some of Sega's updated / popular franchises that are on the current consoles:

There's not a single genuine North American hit in your list. It's *all* hardcore niche titles and outright flops. Sonic is the only mainstream franchise in SEGA's library.


Missing from that list is things that are obvious, like the EPSN series and so on

Which SEGA never knew how to market. The $20 price point and the aggressive approach was all Take-Two.


Sega is doing fine. They are selling enough software to happily get by.

But the point of this thread is to ask whether or not SEGA will once again be a major industry player, as it was in the early '90s. And the answer is a firm "heck, no." As you say, it's a company that's "getting by."

-- Z.

[Push Upstairs]

So you wouldn't agree that this list of North American game releases from the Online Rarity Guide indicates an "excessive" use of the character?

Well, if you want to count every game including orginal "series" games. But Sonic 1-Knuckles isnt excessive no more than Mario 1-4 would be excessive. I'd consider any of the games that strays from the pure "essence" of how these games/characters started to be excessive.

I feel "Mario Party", Mario Golf, & Mario Kart Double Dash as well as "Sonic Drift", "Sonic R", & "Sonic Shuffle" are "excessive". None of these games really add anything to the Mario or Sonic "mythos", and are really just excuses to have an established character in another type of game.


But i wont knock Sega for actually bundling all thier "Sonic Classics" into one game instead of seperate releases.



Sonic had two things going for him back in the day: speed and "attitude." The former was rendered moot by advancing technology (quick-scrolling backgrounds aren't a breathtaking marvel in 2005), and the latter was rendered moot by M-rated titles (Sonic was remarkably edgy 15 years ago, but compared to the protagonists of God of War and GTA: Vice City, he's just a silly cartoon).


This i agree with...but i'd also argue that Sonic was made to have less "attitude" over the years. In "Sonic Adventure" he just seemed to be a bit more mellow.

[goatdan]

First off, there is a reason that Sega hasn't pulled off anything that is truly wacky and strange but sweet lately... Because they aren't pushing hardware.

So you're saying that SEGA considered Seaman and Jet Set Radio to be system-sellers? They're wonderfully quirky games, but they have no casual/mainstream/American appeal, and they didn't sell Dreamcasts in North America.

I think that Sega would've had bigger pushes behind some of their games if they were still moving hardware. I think that Sega (and to an extent, Nintendo) have taken on the "innovate or die" method. I'm not saying that those games were huge system sellers, but that Sega made quirky-ier titles back then because they were hoping to find the next big hit.



If you combine the sales of the Dreamcast and GameCube versions of Sonic Adventure 1 and 2, they sold about a combined 3.5 million games. That's excellent.

I don't think anyone's disputing that Sonic remains a viable, if lessened, IP; he's just lost the things that made him unique (and interesting) 15 years ago.

Well, okay... but which property that has been around for at least 15 years haven't lost that? Mario is in the same boat. Zelda even, although still wildly popular, isn't as "unique" as it was 15 years ago. We aren't in a time where unique software sells. It is tried and true formulas that do. Sonic fits into that, because he essentially pioneered the concept of 'speed platformed' 15 years ago, although it most definitely isn't what it once was.



That having been said, this Shadow thing sounds interesting.

Everyone's dismay with the game stems from that awful, awful illustration of Shadow holding a gun. It's pure, insulting pandering to fans of mature gaming.

I understand the surprise with that screen, but I don't think that it can be labeled as just insulting pandering until we see what the game is like. I think that Sonic could've easily built a game around E-102 from Sonic Adventure and it would've rocked, but due to the fact that at the end of the game, E-102 dies that wasn't possible. Taking a character that is within in the Sonic universe already and making a game around that sounds like a decent idea.

Personally, I don't think and I hope that Sega doesn't try to make this into "Grand Theft Auto: Shadow." If they do, I'll hop onto the outraged bandwagon. Until then, I'm optimistic that this could be the E-102 game that I'm hoping it is.



Let's take a look at some of Sega's updated / popular franchises that are on the current consoles:

There's not a single genuine North American hit in your list. It's *all* hardcore niche titles and outright flops. Sonic is the only mainstream franchise in SEGA's library.

People were complaining that Sega wasn't making enough hardcore games, and I compiled that to counter that argument. Sega is making hardcore games. It's just that it seems there aren't as many hardcore gamers as there once was.

And I would disagree with you about House of the Dead III and Super Monkey Ball 1 & 2 not being successful. Both of those games did really well. Also, for a game that has had almost no marketing at a price above the $20.00 budget title, I think that Spikeout has done excellent.



Missing from that list is things that are obvious, like the EPSN series and so on

Which SEGA never knew how to market. The $20 price point and the aggressive approach was all Take-Two.

Yes -- and the $20.00 price point is an interesting one that shook out in an interesting way: Since NFL 2K5, the amount of games that have come out at a $50.00 price point is nearly nil, while the $20.00 price point has been gaining a lot of steam... When games like Phantom Dust, Narc (even though it sucks, it was a much-touted property) and so on being released at the $20.00 price point is surprising, to say the least, and it will make the start of the $60-$70 game in the next generation a lot harder to swallow.

That has almost nothing to do with this conversation though...

But Sega did know how to market those franchises when they were on the Dreamcast, where they all did very, very well. It's just that Sega opted to keep the 2K series Dreamcast exclusive until 2K3, which opened the door for Madden to find a sweet home on the PS2 before it made it there.



Sega is doing fine. They are selling enough software to happily get by.

But the point of this thread is to ask whether or not SEGA will once again be a major industry player, as it was in the early '90s. And the answer is a firm "heck, no." As you say, it's a company that's "getting by."

The point of this thread seemed to be more of a "Sega no longer makes games for hardcore players. Bring back the great games like Panzeer Dragoon Saga, NiGHTS and so on, and everyone will buy them. My point is that people haven't bought those games in the past, so why would they be so huge now?

Will Sega once again be a major industry player? I still think that they are. Sega has a ton of various IP to work with, and have chose what they wanted to do so far. They will never be a Rockstar or a Electronic Arts, but I don't think that is their goal anyway. With their ability to find talent (Visual Concepts was a team they found themselves) and new projects, I think they could remain a very strong player.

[goatdan]

Just one more thing to mention while I'm thinking about it:

The title of this thread is "Is the Sega of old dead forever." You can look at that in two ways:

Way 1 - Is Sega not the same hardcore, niche game publisher with a few properties that every once in a while got really popular like they once were? I would say they are that same company -- and many of their popular franchises remain the same.

Way 2 - Is Sega not the same powerhouse that they once were when the Genesis was released? Um... That should be obvious. No. But then, neither is Nintendo. Or much of anyone from those earlier days that haven't greatly evolved. Remember when Acclaim was huge? Remember when everything RARE touched turned to gold? Those companies will just never be the same... and that's okay in my book.

[Nature Boy]

Sonic had two things going for him back in the day: speed and "attitude." The former was rendered moot by advancing technology (quick-scrolling backgrounds aren't a breathtaking marvel in 2005), and the latter was rendered moot by M-rated titles (Sonic was remarkably edgy 15 years ago, but compared to the protagonists of God of War and GTA: Vice City, he's just a silly cartoon).

I don't understand why Sega couldn't have continued marketing him in the same way, regardless of advancing technology or M-rated titles.

You can have attitude without blood, can't you? Show him running all over cartoon plumbers and bandicoots or something. They could've made him the so called bad boy of the cartoon mascots.

The speed thing is a bit more difficult, but I can't believe they couldn't have come up with a game that would've still been fast but used today's technology. I didn't care that Sonic was fast where nothing else was, I just liked that it played great.

[RCM]

Heh, Sonic's got approximately a billion others to fall back on.

I want a 3D Sonic title with just Sonic, not his pals. Not even Tails! Sonic has yet to star in his own 3D title. That's sad. I felt the best portions of SA and SA2 were Sonics. When I play I ignore all the other characters and just use Sonic. If Sonic Team could just focus on making a super neato Sonic only game for 3D I, along with everyone else, would be happy!


Shenmue II (Xbox) - This game didn't do so well. With development costs in the hundreds of millions, why oh why would Sega throw money at completing it? Again -- they don't have hardware sales to give them reason to do things that won't make them money.

Shenmue 2 didn't cost hundreds of millions to make. Not even close. The original cost somewhere in the 20-30 million range. Considering S2 uses pretty much the same engine I would wager that it cost even less than that.


Virtua Fighter 4 (PS2) - The classic series that started on the Saturn has its fourth installment land on the PS2.

The classic series that started on Model 1.


There's not a single genuine North American hit in your list. It's *all* hardcore niche titles and outright flops. Sonic is the only mainstream franchise in SEGA's library.

What would you consider genuine US hit? I know VF4 and EVO sold very well. (this is in referece to Goatdan's previous Sega list).


Sega is making hardcore games. It's just that it seems there aren't as many hardcore gamers as there once was.

Sega is certainly making titles that appeal to a hardcore crowd. I don't think it's a question of hardcore gamers dwindling, I think it has to do more with ever changing and evolving taste. What was once mainstream is now niche.

THE ONE, THE ONLY - RCM

[goatdan]

Shenmue II (Xbox) - This game didn't do so well. With development costs in the hundreds of millions, why oh why would Sega throw money at completing it? Again -- they don't have hardware sales to give them reason to do things that won't make them money.

Shenmue 2 didn't cost hundreds of millions to make. Not even close. The original cost somewhere in the 20-30 million range. Considering S2 uses pretty much the same engine I would wager that it cost even less than that.

Oops. Yup, you're right. A cost of somewhere between $20 and $30 million dollars in a development cycle of about seven years...

I heard from a very reliable source that Shenmue sold about half a million copies in the US. Lets say that Shenmue sold another 2.5 million copies in Europe and Japan for a grand total of 3 million copies sold. That means that the development costs per title were nearly $10.00 apiece. On average, a third party developer gets between 10 and 20% of the profits of a game. At $50.00 apeice, that means that Sega is either losing $5.00 per copy sold, or breaking even.

Not something I'd want to hop back into. Talk about a HUGE risk. And while Shenmue II might have cost less to develop overall, the engine would have to be updated for future ones. Even if development can drop to $15 million, that is still super, super expensive. I don't blame Sega for not taking that risk on again.

[zmweasel]

Well, okay... but which property that has been around for at least 15 years haven't lost that? Mario is in the same boat. Zelda even, although still wildly popular, isn't as "unique" as it was 15 years ago. We aren't in a time where unique software sells. It is tried and true formulas that do. Sonic fits into that, because he essentially pioneered the concept of 'speed platformed' 15 years ago, although it most definitely isn't what it once was.

Mario and Link have always been family-friendly cartoon characters, and family-friendliness never goes out of style -- but "attitude" does.

And both the Mario and Zelda franchises were built around fantastic, genre-defining gameplay, while the Sonic games were built around a speed-scrolling gimmick that's long since lost its wow factor. That's why SEGA has to sell all the old-school Sonics in a $20 retro-compilation, while Nintendo can charge $30 for each of the old-school Mario and Zelda titles.


I understand the surprise with that screen, but I don't think that it can be labeled as just insulting pandering until we see what the game is like.

I'm not saying the game is pandering; I'm saying that illustration is pandering, an awful marketing decision that turns off many more SEGA/Sonic fans than it turns on.


People were complaining that Sega wasn't making enough hardcore games, and I compiled that to counter that argument. Sega is making hardcore games. It's just that it seems there aren't as many hardcore gamers as there once was.

I'd argue there are more hardcore gamers than ever, but they're now vastly outnumbered by casual gamers, and development budgets are so massive that top-tier game publishers can't survive on hardcore sales alone. Take Sonic away, and SEGA would be a half-step above Atlus.


And I would disagree with you about House of the Dead III and Super Monkey Ball 1 & 2 not being successful. Both of those games did really well. Also, for a game that has had almost no marketing at a price above the $20.00 budget title, I think that Spikeout has done excellent.

I'm sure House III did quite well, considering it's a light-gun shooter. And I'm sure SMB 1/2 did quite well, considering it was a third-party GameCube game (since ported to the Xbox and PS2). But these are niche titles. These aren't games that make magazine covers or score massive pre-orders. These aren't games that'll make SEGA a major player in the North American market.


Yes -- and the $20.00 price point is an interesting one that shook out in an interesting way: Since NFL 2K5, the amount of games that have come out at a $50.00 price point is nearly nil, while the $20.00 price point has been gaining a lot of steam... When games like Phantom Dust, Narc (even though it sucks, it was a much-touted property) and so on being released at the $20.00 price point is surprising, to say the least, and it will make the start of the $60-$70 game in the next generation a lot harder to swallow.

Nearly nil? I can point you to many dozens of $50-MSRP releases since NFL 2K5 shipped. That claim is simply wrong.

As for the $20 games you mention, Phantom Dust was a quirky Japanese import (for which a $20 price point has become an unofficial industry standard), and NARC was a piece of shit (which Midway realized, and priced it as such).

I'm willing to bet a chunk of change that triple-A titles for the PS3 and Xbox 360 will be $60, without the "limited-edition" packaging nonsense currently being used by publishers to wean the Teeming Millions onto higher price points. It might not happen immediately at launch, but it'll definitely happen over the course of the systems' lifetimes.

But we digress. :)


The point of this thread seemed to be more of a "Sega no longer makes games for hardcore players. Bring back the great games like Panzeer Dragoon Saga, NiGHTS and so on, and everyone will buy them. My point is that people haven't bought those games in the past, so why would they be so huge now?

I absolutely agree with you that SEGA continues to crank out hardcore games, and that they're not selling anymore. The industry has changed a lot in the past 15 years.


Will Sega once again be a major industry player? I still think that they are. Sega has a ton of various IP to work with, and have chose what they wanted to do so far. They will never be a Rockstar or a Electronic Arts, but I don't think that is their goal anyway. With their ability to find talent (Visual Concepts was a team they found themselves) and new projects, I think they could remain a very strong player.

If you define "major industry player" in terms of grosses, as I do, SEGA isn't a major player in the North American industry. I haven't seen grosses for '04 yet, however.

I recall that when SEGA went "hardware-agnostic," its executive leaders expected the company to be right up there with EA and THQ. (SEGA fanboys expected it, as well.) No one at SEGA was talking about devolving into a second-tier publisher with a single mainstream IP (Sonic) and a bunch of modest- or non-selling hardcore/niche stuff, which is what's happened.

-- Z.

[zmweasel]

What would you consider genuine US hit? I know VF4 and EVO sold very well. (this is in referece to Goatdan's previous Sega list).

A game that makes the NPD/TRST top ten for a particular platform for at least two months. (A lot of games hit the top ten on their launch month and quickly disappear.) I don't remember VF4 or Evo riding high in the charts for two or more months, but if I'm wrong, that's cool.

-- Z.

[goatdan]

Mario and Link have always been family-friendly cartoon characters, and family-friendliness never goes out of style -- but "attitude" does.

If you're defining "unique" as Sonic's attitude, I agree. I thought you were looking at Sonic's speed, which while unique when Sega did it is actually probably more unique than the Mario platformers -- there aren't any other 3D platformers that I can think of that use speed like Sonic has.


And both the Mario and Zelda franchises were built around fantastic, genre-defining gameplay, while the Sonic games were built around a speed-scrolling gimmick that's long since lost its wow factor. That's why SEGA has to sell all the old-school Sonics in a $20 retro-compilation, while Nintendo can charge $30 for each of the old-school Mario and Zelda titles.

Wait here though -- the Nintendo ones that they have been selling are the ones that are on the Game Boy Advance.... at least that is what I assume you're talking about. By putting them in a compilition on a console, I doubt that gamers would pay $30.00 for a console version of Super Mario Brothers with no updates. I think it's unfair to say that it means that the Sonic property is a much lower value.

Mega Man now has a huge compilation too. It is $19.99 new. I don't think that means that Mega Man isn't still a strong property. It's just the nature of compilations on consoles versus the single games on portables. Nintendo so far has done an excellent job selling gamers the same stuff over and over. Hell, I bought a copy of Donkey Kong Country for the Game Boy Color because I liked the SNES one so much. But I wouldn't buy a copy of DKC alone on the GameCube for $30.00.


I'm not saying the game is pandering; I'm saying that illustration is pandering, an awful marketing decision that turns off many more SEGA/Sonic fans than it turns on.

That I agree with. I thought that we were strictly talking about the game here.


I'd argue there are more hardcore gamers than ever, but they're now vastly outnumbered by casual gamers, and development budgets are so massive that top-tier game publishers can't survive on hardcore sales alone. Take Sonic away, and SEGA would be a half-step above Atlus.

Agreed. Maybe this is a better way to put it -- that the percentage of hardcore gamers is lower to the percentage of "mainstream" gamers now. It is the whole issue that I've been bringing up lately about how much different the landscape of gaming is now -- when 620,000+ PSP consoles already being sold can in some ways be considered a disappointment... We're in a completely different market. I for one never thought Sega would be EA, and I was always happy about that.


I'm sure House III did quite well, considering it's a light-gun shooter. And I'm sure SMB 1/2 did quite well, considering it was a third-party GameCube game (since ported to the Xbox and PS2). But these are niche titles. These aren't games that make magazine covers or score massive pre-orders. These aren't games that'll make SEGA a major player in the North American market.

While it's true that those aren't the games that will make Sega into a major player, they are a definitely good "level two" sort of set. I don't think that companies like EA and Rockstar have the same sort of mid-range games. If Sega starts up any franchises that are huge in the near future, it could be very good for them. I know they have a survival horror thing coming out that I've already seen on some magazine covers that has potential...


Nearly nil? I can point you to many dozens of $50-MSRP releases since NFL 2K5 shipped. That claim is simply wrong.

As for the $20 games you mention, Phantom Dust was a quirky Japanese import (for which a $20 price point has become an unofficial industry standard), and NARC was a piece of shit (which Midway realized, and priced it as such).

I'm willing to bet a chunk of change that triple-A titles for the PS3 and Xbox 360 will be $60, without the "limited-edition" packaging nonsense currently being used by publishers to wean the Teeming Millions onto higher price points. It might not happen immediately at launch, but it'll definitely happen over the course of the systems' lifetimes.

But we digress. :)

Wait! Before we digress...

Sorry, didn't mean to say nearly nil.... but the price point of the average game has fallen. And games that are released at a price point higher than $20.00 tend to fall to it rather quickly.

I agree that AAA titles for the next round will probably be $60.00, but it seems that the amount of AAA titles is falling lower, and more AA titles are being released at the $20.00 price point.

Okay... Now we can digress ;)


I absolutely agree with you that SEGA continues to crank out hardcore games, and that they're not selling anymore. The industry has changed a lot in the past 15 years.

Yes -- so I think that to say that Sega should change their plan to pull out more hardcore games is strange to me. It seems to me they are trying to do more mainstream stuff, and if it works then they'll be in very good shape.


If you define "major industry player" in terms of grosses, as I do, SEGA isn't a major player in the North American industry. I haven't seen grosses for '04 yet, however.

I recall that when SEGA went "hardware-agnostic," its executive leaders expected the company to be right up there with EA and THQ. (SEGA fanboys expected it, as well.) No one at SEGA was talking about devolving into a second-tier publisher with a single mainstream IP (Sonic) and a bunch of modest- or non-selling hardcore/niche stuff, which is what's happened.

I mostly agree with that. But at the same point, you choose what you publish and what you push. The ESPN series was huge for them until it was bought out by Take 2 (which I would love to know the entire story of, by the way...). Now, Sega definitely has a huge hole in their line-up from that, and with only Sonic around it seems that they could devolve. I think that Sega has a lot up their sleeves though, and I think that they could come on pretty strong...

...but if they do go mainstream, it will alienate a lot of the fans that love Sega for being hardcore. There is just no winning for them, is there?

[zmweasel]

If you're defining "unique" as Sonic's attitude, I agree. I thought you were looking at Sonic's speed, which while unique when Sega did it is actually probably more unique than the Mario platformers -- there aren't any other 3D platformers that I can think of that use speed like Sonic has.

And that's why the Sonic games will never be among the best of the genre; they're locked into the now-irrelevant speed gimmick. Franchises like Sly Cooper, Ratchet & Clank and Jak & Daxter are free to focus on great game design.


Wait here though -- the Nintendo ones that they have been selling are the ones that are on the Game Boy Advance.... at least that is what I assume you're talking about. By putting them in a compilition on a console, I doubt that gamers would pay $30.00 for a console version of Super Mario Brothers with no updates. I think it's unfair to say that it means that the Sonic property is a much lower value.

Yep, I'm referring to the current wave of GBA re-releases. But there's also Super Mario All-Stars for the SNES, which put SMBs 1-3 and the "Lost Levels" into a premium-priced cart for a home console, averaging out to $15 a game (assuming SMAS was $60 -- does anyone remember?).

And look at the value of and demand for the GameCube's Zelda-compilation discs (Ocarina/Master and the old-school titles). Why isn't there a similar frenzy surrounding Sonic Mega Collection Plus?


Mega Man now has a huge compilation too. It is $19.99 new. I don't think that means that Mega Man isn't still a strong property. It's just the nature of compilations on consoles versus the single games on portables. Nintendo so far has done an excellent job selling gamers the same stuff over and over. Hell, I bought a copy of Donkey Kong Country for the Game Boy Color because I liked the SNES one so much. But I wouldn't buy a copy of DKC alone on the GameCube for $30.00.

Mega Man is a strange case, a franchise that went from mainstream to niche because its creators refused to evolve the game design. I wouldn't call it a "strong" IP anymore.

But you're right: Nintendo is masterful at repackaging and reselling the same games over and over again.


I know they have a survival horror thing coming out that I've already seen on some magazine covers that has potential...

Yep, that one could be sweet, though RE4 has raised the bar sky-high in that genre.


Sorry, didn't mean to say nearly nil.... but the price point of the average game has fallen. And games that are released at a price point higher than $20.00 tend to fall to it rather quickly.

I don't know if the average console game was cheaper in '04 than it was in '03, but I suspect you're right. And I don't know if games are getting marked down from $50 to $20 faster than they used to be, but again, I suspect you're right.


I mostly agree with that. But at the same point, you choose what you publish and what you push. The ESPN series was huge for them until it was bought out by Take 2 (which I would love to know the entire story of, by the way...). Now, Sega definitely has a huge hole in their line-up from that, and with only Sonic around it seems that they could devolve. I think that Sega has a lot up their sleeves though, and I think that they could come on pretty strong...

I've only heard bits and pieces of the story, but it boils down to this: SEGA lost all faith in Visual Concepts when Madden destroyed NFL2K in their first head-to-head year, and Visual Concepts lost all faith in SEGA because it didn't know how and didn't have adequate resources to market the franchise. Take-Two came in and told Visual Concepts what it wanted to hear, and SEGA sold VC for a song.


...but if they do go mainstream, it will alienate a lot of the fans that love Sega for being hardcore. There is just no winning for them, is there?

Doesn't seem like it, alas.

-- Z.

[goatdan]

And that's why the Sonic games will never be among the best of the genre; they're locked into the now-irrelevant speed gimmick. Franchises like Sly Cooper, Ratchet & Clank and Jak & Daxter are free to focus on great game design.

Well, I would agree thta the play mechanic of speed and how Sonic attacks and stuff like that hasn't transferred so well to 3D, but I think that overall the games are still pretty solid.

I've played through them only because I really like the speed gimmick. I haven't made it through most 3D platformers because of how slow they are. Right now, it's just an issue of how many more bugs seem to appear in gameplay when you have it cranked up to 100 MPH.


Yep, I'm referring to the current wave of GBA re-releases. But there's also Super Mario All-Stars for the SNES, which put SMBs 1-3 and the "Lost Levels" into a premium-priced cart for a home console, averaging out to $15 a game (assuming SMAS was $60 -- does anyone remember?).

I would assume it was $60.00, but we're comparing apples to oranges, as it was sold with updated graphics, an unreleased US game (Lost Levels) and a save feature in an era of 2D only. I wouldn't expect the same compilation to sell for $50.00 on the GameCube.


And look at the value of and demand for the GameCube's Zelda-compilation discs (Ocarina/Master and the old-school titles). Why isn't there a similar frenzy surrounding Sonic Mega Collection Plus?

The perceived limited quantity of the Zelda one makes it so high in demand. It wasn't sold by Nintendo. If it was, I doubt it would've cost as much at release -- but even if it did, it has the 3D versions from the N64 in it. The Sonic Mega Collection didn't have Sonic Adventure in it. If it did, I'm sure they could've sold it for more.


Mega Man is a strange case, a franchise that went from mainstream to niche because its creators refused to evolve the game design. I wouldn't call it a "strong" IP anymore.

But you're right: Nintendo is masterful at repackaging and reselling the same games over and over again.

Yup.


Yep, that one could be sweet, though RE4 has raised the bar sky-high in that genre.

Oh, it definitely has... which means that Sega needs to come up with something all their own. It may not be that game. I think they really could build something around whatever the Amuze 2006 property is, considering that Headhunter would've been a hit had it not been made for the PS2 and "promoted" by Acclaim, and Headhunter: Redemption could've been a hit if people knew that it was a sequel to an awesome game and didn't have a stupid as hell beginning.

I'm guessing that the 2006 project will be a new action type of series that Sega will actually strongly promote.

There are some definite possibilites. They just entered a partnership with Silicon Knights (makers of the remake of Metal Gear Solid for the GameCube). I think that they have a good number of properties that could become their next big thing.


I've only heard bits and pieces of the story, but it boils down to this: SEGA lost all faith in Visual Concepts when Madden destroyed NFL2K in their first head-to-head year, and Visual Concepts lost all faith in SEGA because it didn't know how and didn't have adequate resources to market the franchise. Take-Two came in and told Visual Concepts what it wanted to hear, and SEGA sold VC for a song.

There had to be more to it than that, because for the longest time Take 2 was distributing while it still had the Sega name on the cover and, from personal knowledge, I know that Sega hadden't lost faith in Visual Concepts as a company. I am positive there is a lot there I don't know the story from, and I wish I did.


...but if they do go mainstream, it will alienate a lot of the fans that love Sega for being hardcore. There is just no winning for them, is there?

Doesn't seem like it, alas.[/quote]

[zmweasel]

Well, I would agree thta the play mechanic of speed and how Sonic attacks and stuff like that hasn't transferred so well to 3D, but I think that overall the games are still pretty solid.

Solid, yes. Best of breed, no.

And to digress (heh), there's no question that Mario has suffered from the move to 3D, as well. Mario 64 doesn't hold up like the NES classics, as Mario 64 DS made clear; it's early and rough, almost experimental.


I would assume it was $60.00, but we're comparing apples to oranges, as it was sold with updated graphics, an unreleased US game (Lost Levels) and a save feature in an era of 2D only. I wouldn't expect the same compilation to sell for $50.00 on the GameCube.

I believe Nintendo *could* sell a million units of a GC Super Mario All-Stars with a $50 MSRP. That's how great those games (and Nintendo's repackaging of them) are.


The perceived limited quantity of the Zelda one makes it so high in demand. It wasn't sold by Nintendo. If it was, I doubt it would've cost as much at release -- but even if it did, it has the 3D versions from the N64 in it. The Sonic Mega Collection didn't have Sonic Adventure in it. If it did, I'm sure they could've sold it for more.

Imagine if Nintendo *had* sold the Collector's Edition disc, is my point. People are shelling out $30-$60 on eBay for a four-game compilation. Would people be willing to shell out that much for Sonic Mega Collection if it included Sonic Adventure? No way.


There had to be more to it than that, because for the longest time Take 2 was distributing while it still had the Sega name on the cover and, from personal knowledge, I know that Sega hadden't lost faith in Visual Concepts as a company. I am positive there is a lot there I don't know the story from, and I wish I did.

Actually, it makes sense. VC came to recognize the strength of Take-Two's distribution channels and the weakness of SEGA's marketing. I don't know if VC approached TT, or if TT approached VC, but the two companies obviously felt they had more in common than VC and SEGA.

As for SEGA's faith in VC, are you referring to the American division? Because it doesn't much matter what SEGA of America thought of VC. The power is held, and the decisions are made, in Japan, and Japan was very displeased at the pounding NFL2K took. Remember SEGA blaming its red ink for that period entirely upon NFL2K's retail failure?

And, hey, let me know if I'm getting hostile or out of line. I'm trying very hard to be a kinder, gentler devil's advocate.

-- Z.

[goatdan]

Solid, yes. Best of breed, no.

And to digress (heh), there's no question that Mario has suffered from the move to 3D, as well. Mario 64 doesn't hold up like the NES classics, as Mario 64 DS made clear; it's early and rough, almost experimental.

I'd agree with all of that :)


I believe Nintendo *could* sell a million units of a GC Super Mario All-Stars with a $50 MSRP. That's how great those games (and Nintendo's repackaging of them) are.

Maybe they could... but for that price, I don't know if it would be worth it for most consumers at the $20.00 price point unless it included Super Mario World and Super Mario 64. Then, I could see $30.00, but no straight compilation has sold for more than that, so I think it would be tough.


Imagine if Nintendo *had* sold the Collector's Edition disc, is my point. People are shelling out $30-$60 on eBay for a four-game compilation. Would people be willing to shell out that much for Sonic Mega Collection if it included Sonic Adventure? No way.

I think people would be willing to shell out that much on eBay if the only way to get Sonic Mega Collection was by preordering Sonic Heroes or Sonic Adventure 2: Battle for the Cube only. That would probably land somewhere around the number of Sonic Mega Collections at approximately the same numbers that is has sold on the GameCube (over 500,000, last I heard) but would give consumers the perceived rarity, and with no prices to base their payments on, I think that the Sonic Mega Collection would've fetched a higher price.


Actually, it makes sense. VC came to recognize the strength of Take-Two's distribution channels and the weakness of SEGA's marketing. I don't know if VC approached TT, or if TT approached VC, but the two companies obviously felt they had more in common than VC and SEGA.

Yes, except that Take 2 and Sega had been working together to publish the 2K5 series up until baseball. They are all "Sega Sports" but published by Take 2, which is what I don't understand.

I'm not denying that Take 2 can push the games better than Sega did, but exactly what role Sega played in the publishing of those games is a bit of a mystery to me.


As for SEGA's faith in VC, are you referring to the American division? Because it doesn't much matter what SEGA of America thought of VC. The power is held, and the decisions are made, in Japan, and Japan was very displeased at the pounding NFL2K took. Remember SEGA blaming its red ink for that period entirely upon NFL2K's retail failure?

Yes, that's true -- but at the same time, basing too much of your success on any particular franchise is always dangerous. EA just had that same problem when Rogue Agent and Madden 2005 didn't perform up to expectations for them.


And, hey, let me know if I'm getting hostile or out of line. I'm trying very hard to be a kinder, gentler devil's advocate.

Heh, mission accomplished ;) Seriously though, I think this is a healthy, interesting debate right now. Nothing more. :)

[RCM]

What would you consider genuine US hit? I know VF4 and EVO sold very well. (this is in referece to Goatdan's previous Sega list).

A game that makes the NPD/TRST top ten for a particular platform for at least two months. (A lot of games hit the top ten on their launch month and quickly disappear.) I don't remember VF4 or Evo riding high in the charts for two or more months, but if I'm wrong, that's cool.

-- Z.

I don't think it was on top for that long. I know both games did well in the states and Japan. Especially the states where Sega has been pushing Virtua Fighter on us for over 10 years now. VF4 being on the PS2 did benefit the series in a lot of ways although both ports aren't as pretty as Naomi 2.

THE ONE, THE ONLY - RCM