Gran Turismo 4 or Forza Motorsport?

[slip81]

I haven't played either yet, but both of them look very good and since they both got similar reviews from the sources I trust online, the decision of which one to plunk $50 on is quite difficult.

So what I'm mainly wondering is which one do you think gives you more mileage? The whole aspect of creating a car and player and racing online in Forza seems very cool, but online play really isn't a selling factor for me, especially if turismo 4 is good enough to make me forget it doesn't have online play.

[davidbrit2]

Okay, I can't really give you a specific "You should buy...", because there are a whole bunch of factors to consider. In case you didn't guess, I'm about to get very long winded about them now. Heh.

Tracks: GT4 has the advantage here. It's got a lot more of them, plus rally, dirt, and snow tracks. There are also more familiar real world tracks that aren't in Forza (Fuji, Suzuka, Infineon, Motegi, etc). Forza has excellent tracks too, but just fewer of them, and it's all tarmac racing.

Cars: GT4 has more of them as well. But Forza still has well over 200, I believe, so it's still plenty. It doesn't have the novelty cars that GT4 does - so no Model T, Daimler Motor Carriage, or Jay Leno Tank Car.

Physics: Frankly, I can't really tell which one is more realistic. They both have their little quirks, but overall seem great. This won't really be a deciding factor.

Multiplayer: Forza's got the advantage here, by far. Live supports 8 player races with voice chat, and you can create "car clubs" which work sort of like teams or clans (we've got a DP one created already). It also supports system link for LAN play, as does GT4, though GT4 only lets you play arcade mode cars like this I believe. Forza lets you use your profile's garage in all modes.

Wheels: The PS2 has much better wheels available than the XBox. If you plan on getting a Logitech Driving Force, and you don't have Live, then get GT4. The Logitech force feedback wheels are exceptional, and there's really nothing like them available for the XBox, sadly.

Graphics: Frankly I don't see that one really kills the other. GT4 is 60 fps, whereas Forza is 30 but with less obvious draw-in. However Forza seems a little bit more plagued with texture pop-up in places. The polygon counts don't look all that different.

In other words, if you don't have or plan to get Live, GT4 will probably give you a bit more engrossing of a single player experience, due to the larger number of tracks and cars and manufacturer events and such. If you have Live, then go to the store RIGHT NOW and get Forza. I've got both games myself, and they're both awesome in different respects. You just have to figure out which ones apply more to you personally. Forza is the most fun I've had with an online game in ages, and GT4 has a superbly ridiculous selection of cars and tracks to experiment with.

[petewhitley]

David's analysis is spot on. Personally, as an Xbox Live fanatic, I'm prefering Forza by a mile. However, if GT4 was an Xbox Live product, I would be all over that (despite the lack of a damage model, something that honestly makes a significant difference in realism in my eyes).

[davidbrit2]

(despite the lack of a damage model, something that honestly makes a significant difference in realism in my eyes).

Agreed. Though it shouldn't make that big of a difference for a skilled driver, right? ;-) It's pretty funny to play on Live and watch as the entire grid goes off at the first sharp turn on the track, leaving half the pack to limp along with busted front ends and fucked up alignment.

[spaceFarmer]

One thing that drove me crazy about GT4 was the loading time. It really starts to add up when you have to back out of a race to put new parts on a car.

[doomedpeasant]

Well i played Forza on a kiosk the other day, and i thought the turning sucked ass. It might have been i different game but i'm 90% sure it was forza. anyway just thought id say something.

[davidbrit2]

Well i played Forza on a kiosk the other day, and i thought the turning sucked ass. It might have been i different game but i'm 90% sure it was forza. anyway just thought id say something.

What are you comparing it too? It seems about the same as GT4 to me. It's a pretty straight-up simulation, so you won't be taking sharp turns at 100 MPH.

[lendelin]

Today I picked up the Best Buy Demo Disc for Forza. I raced Laguna Seca in about ten different cars up to 'hot ' race cars. Keep in mind that therefore this is a first impression of Forza, however, one that allows an estimation of the core of a simulation racer. I also played GT4 (now a 80% completion rate).

Note: this is a fair review; I just like racers, and I don't care about the brand name or the system they are on when it comes to evaluations.

Lets put overestimated 'features' like changing the appearance of your car aside, the same goes for online play or system link battles. Damage of cars at this point is unimportant because it hardly goes beyond appearance of the cars, only in case of severe damage it has consequences (no subtleties there).

Lets just look at aspects which really count for a sim racer: control, graphics, and AI.

Forza never gave me the elusive 'feeling' of speed which GT4 delivered. The control for all the very different types of cars seemed touchy compared to GT. The different cars certainly had the tendency to spin, in particular if another car ran into you from behind. Probably realistic, but frustrating. I can't imagine how this tendency will contribute to the frustration level in really difficult races.

There is a delicate balance in every realistic racer between realism and playability. GT4 achieves the delicate balance, Forza does not. GT4 is a much smoother ride with the feeling of realism and speed.

Reenforcing the impression of "no-realism" are the graphics. I don't know if it is the demo disc, but the graphics were good, not even very good, and certainly a class behind GT4. Project Gotham Racing 2 has much better graphics than Forza. (I played PGR2, but the demo disc contains also PGR2. Do me a favor and compare the two.) Pop-up, texture deficiencies of the tracks and surroundings, and certainly the car modeling (!) and lighting effects (!) cannot compete with GT4. Disturbing is the 'floating effect': if other cars in front of you or behind you have a certain distance, they seem not attached to the track. Something that was there in GT2, but was better handled in Test Drive Le Mans for the DC than in Forza.

Just playing a demo on one difficulty level not experiencing the variety of races, the impression of AI is certainly limited. I'm careful, therefore it seems that AI isn't really a difference between the two racers.

Forza falls short in every aspect. I was disappointed by the graphics and control. It is certainly a good racer, and it is certainly the best sim racer on the Xbox, but is is way behind GT4.

IGN gave this game a 9.5. Reading their review a couple of days ago, I noticed that the review content and the score didn't match. (content suggested a 8.5)

I think we have an underdog phenomena here: because GT3 and 4 are and were so dominant, wishful thinking for a serious competitor as well as hype blurs the vision for Forza; in addition, GT4 didn't match all the expectations we had which results in a sympathetic view of Forza. Let me put it this way: GT3 was 3 laps ahead of the competition, other racers caught up over time. Today, GT4 is still one lap ahead; Forza doesn't come even close.

Online gaming and system link are great, but they doesn't make a very good racer an excellent one. Control issues and graphic issues are still there, online gaming or not. They are nice features to have, and if you emphasize online competition this is a selling point; but there is no way this racer is a serious competitor to GT4.

I'll buy Forza exactly when I intended before it was released: in about a year ago for $20.

[davidbrit2]

Pretty much every comment I've seen comparing the demo to the full release says that the demo was very, very unimpressive by comparison. Hell, even I wasn't all that wowed, but I went ahead and got the game anyway (and I love it). So don't even bother reviewing the game without playing the retail release. Heh.

One questionable aspect of the physics in Forza is that pretty much whenever you nick a wall at anything sharper than about a 15º angle, you end up flying into at least a 180 spin. It's especially bad in the tire walls. I'm not sure if that's as realistic as it ought to be...

[lendelin]

Pretty much every comment I've seen comparing the demo to the full release says that the demo was very, very unimpressive by comparison. Hell, even I wasn't all that wowed, but I went ahead and got the game anyway (and I love it). So don't even bother reviewing the game without playing the retail release. Heh.

Well, are the graphics of the actual game then better than in the demo? If they are as good as in GT4, man, then this is some screwed-up demo. I never found such big differences between a demo and actual game so that Forza could catch up with GT4; in particular when it comes to lighting effects and car modeling. (which is important for a realistic racer) Same goes for the control. Is it such a big difference between the demo and the retail release?


One questionable aspect of the physics in Forza is that pretty much whenever you nick a wall at anything sharper than about a 15º angle, you end up flying into at least a 180 spin. It's especially bad in the tire walls. I'm not sure if that's as realistic as it ought to be...

I noticed that too, therefore my comments about the difficult to achieve balance between realism and playability which results in the equally difficult to achive balance between challenge and frustration.

I didn't go into career mode because there is nothing on the demo disc; also nothing about the very important variety of tracks, cars, and their replayabilty on tracks which results in loving the cars, tracks, and subtleties in car physisc engines. (Very important for gameplay and the immersion of the gamer) From what I 'heard' and read, it is hard to imagine that Forza is on par in that department, too.

My first impression: Forza might be among the most hyped games of this console generation. Not as bad as Matrix, but certainly hyped without delivering something excellent.

[petewhitley]

Lets put overestimated 'features' like changing the appearance of your car aside, the same goes for online play or system link battles. Damage of cars at this point is unimportant because it hardly goes beyond appearance of the cars, only in case of severe damage it has consequences (no subtleties there).

I don't intend to disagree with your review; it's your own valid opinion. But online play is not an overestimated feature, for there is a large population of gamers who make purchasing decisions based upon whether or not a game is online compatible. Additionally, the damage model is important in the context of the game, I would suggest that your limited time with title did not allow you to see this. That said, I agree that Forza as a single-player racing sim does not touch GT4. But despite that, for some, those very features you deem overestimated make Forza the preferable title.

[davidbrit2]

Yeah, online play is pretty much the reason I bought Forza, since GT4 already gave me a perfectly fine single player experience. If Forza weren't online, I probably wouldn't have bothered, since my Logitech wheel only works with PS2 anyway. But since I have Live, I'm glad I got it. It's an absolute blast in multiplayer.

[lendelin]

@petewhitley and davidbrit2:

Well, I'm glad that you agree that GT4 is clearly the better game. (the first review gave the impression that Forza is almost on par)

About online gaming: what really irks me about it is the hype of online gaming which spills over in review scores and review content. It is a feature, nothing more and nothing less. It is a selling point, and important for gamers which are into the genre AND online gaming. I don't underestimate it.

Online gaming, however, doesn't change the core of gameplay. If it is a mediocre platformer, puzzler, sports game, or racer, the questionable core aspects of gameplay (control, graphics, sound, atmosphere) are there online, too. Multiplayer, online or offline, is a feature which currently doesn't affect these core aspects.

This emphasis on online play reminds me of reviews during the PS1 times: well, it is not such a good game, but it is in 3D! Wow! The mere fact of 3D seemed almost as much important as gameplay. Today, in almost every review the existing or missing online features are a negative or a positive - and they affect the score sometimes by one point. That is hype and short sighted. Only if a game is predominantly a multiplayer game, online or offline multiplayer features deserve to play such a part in a review.

Online gaming should be treated as such - as a feature which is important for some, and for some unimportant. It doesn't make a good game very good or excellent.

[davidbrit2]

You're spending an awful lot of time whining about a game you haven't even played the retail version of.

Forza is sweet. GT4 is sweet. They're both sweet for different reasons. Simple as that.

[lendelin]

You're spending an awful lot of time whining about a game you haven't even played the retail version of.

Forza is sweet. GT4 is sweet. They're both sweet for different reasons. Simple as that.

First, I'm not whining, I'm critisizing. I tend to whine about more important things.

Second, you didn't answer my Qs about the difference between the actual game and the demo.

Third, I say it again, online gaming cannot make up for such a clear difference in gameplay. A decent game cannot reach the level of excellence online.

[davidbrit2]

Second, you didn't answer my Qs about the difference between the actual game and the demo.

The demo is vastly lacking in features, and didn't feel like it controlled all that well.


Third, I say it again, online gaming cannot make up for such a clear difference in gameplay. A decent game cannot reach the level of excellence online.

That would be a fair argument if there were actually such differences in gameplay to begin with. Forza has fewer cars and tracks, but it plays equally well, and almost better with the addition of proper damage modeling (both cosmetic and internal).

[lendelin]

Forza has fewer cars and tracks, but it plays equally well, and almost better with the addition of proper damage modeling (both cosmetic and internal).

It plays equally well, are you sure about that? :) Well, then this demo is truly screwed up (the worst demo I experienced so far)

PS: Fewer cars and tracks aren't an issue for my criticism at all. The sophistication of the damage models is, however...if this damage model goes beyond the best Nascar racers which is predominantly cosmetic, then we have truly an outstanding achievement; are you sure about that? :)

[davidbrit2]

Yeah, you can beat up the internals of your car too - engine, gearbox, brakes, drivetrain, suspension, steering, etc. Limping across the line with your car pulling to the side because your steering and drivetrain got jacked up in a wreck takes a steady hand indeed. And maybe you'll pass by your spoiler laying in the middle of the road on the next lap. Ha ha.

[petewhitley]

About online gaming: what really irks me about it is the hype of online gaming which spills over in review scores and review content. It is a feature, nothing more and nothing less. It is a selling point, and important for gamers which are into the genre AND online gaming. I don't underestimate it.

Online gaming, however, doesn't change the core of gameplay. If it is a mediocre platformer, puzzler, sports game, or racer, the questionable core aspects of gameplay (control, graphics, sound, atmosphere) are there online, too. Multiplayer, online or offline, is a feature which currently doesn't affect these core aspects.

This emphasis on online play reminds me of reviews during the PS1 times: well, it is not such a good game, but it is in 3D! Wow! The mere fact of 3D seemed almost as much important as gameplay. Today, in almost every review the existing or missing online features are a negative or a positive - and they affect the score sometimes by one point. That is hype and short sighted. Only if a game is predominantly a multiplayer game, online or offline multiplayer features deserve to play such a part in a review.

Online gaming should be treated as such - as a feature which is important for some, and for some unimportant. It doesn't make a good game very good or excellent.

What online gaming adds is A.I. The most sophisticated A.I. imaginable, that being human competition. This difference is far more revolutionary than the move to 3D. What we are currently experiencing (the move towards the 24hr availability of a wide range of human opponents/cooperants) is an advance that will change the very face of gaming as we know it. Give me the choice of racing against a field of computer generated opponents vs. a field of very real gamers from around the world; well, that's not much of a choice at all. I used to come home from school and throw in Tecmo Bowl and use the same play to gain 15 yards per down. Now I come home from work and face-off against friends and strangers who know me and my playing style. It's a vastly different gaming experience. In some genres (say, platformers), online compatibility is not currently a core aspect of the worth of a title. But in genres which inherently involve competition (such as racing), online compatibility and the ability to play against real human intelligence does change the core gameplay. GT4 would undoubtedly be a more realistic experience with an online component, and for a game that strives to be as realistic as possible, it's a glaring omission that detracts from that realism. GT4 is the superior single-player racing sim. However, Forza offers similar mechanics plus real human competition. As such, I believe Forza is the better game overall, something that GT4 would have laid claim to had it simply been online.

[lendelin]

Yeah, you can beat up the internals of your car too - engine, gearbox, brakes, drivetrain, suspension, steering, etc. Limping across the line with your car pulling to the side because your steering and drivetrain got jacked up in a wreck takes a steady hand indeed. And maybe you'll pass by your spoiler laying in the middle of the road on the next lap. Ha ha.

I know that from Nascar racers. Maybe we have different standards of damage modeling and how they should affect driving.

Well, lets leave it that way: the big advantages of Forza are online gaming and damage modeling. Otherwise, it falls short.

Honestly, I was disappointed. Features, non-features, fewer or more tracks aren't so important. Control and car physics engine in order to give the feeling for different cars, steering, and speed in order to get the optimized curve line are important for racers. They are gameplay. Unless this demo is screwed up (which I doubt), Forza falls short.

[lendelin]

What online gaming adds is A.I.

Well, it adds H.I. - human intelligence...and I completely agree with you that human competitors are much more interesting, creative, irrational, and way more intelligent than every AI in racers; and this is something special, something a single player game can never deliver.


online compatibility and the ability to play against real human intelligence does change the core gameplay. GT4 would undoubtedly be a more realistic experience with an online component, and for a game that strives to be as realistic as possible, it's a glaring omission that detracts from that realism.

Here is where we disagree. Every game can have online play. Terrific ones and the worst ones. Human intelligence online is still dependent on controls, those nasty little buttons which transform into commands and movements onscreen and are a result of sheer programming of various variables.

Has a mediocre racer better controls online? If you miss a curve because of control issues, will you be less mad because you can race with other human beings? Does a mediocre racer transform into a good one because of human competitors? Is a technical feature readily available for every game so important that it leaves behind every good programming and polishment of a single player game?

The thing about online gaming is -- it is relatively new in its broad appeal and availability. It doesn't affect the core gameplay which is still dependent on game mechanics, sound, graphics, and atmosphere. All of the above is independent of online play.


As such, I believe Forza is the better game overall, something that GT4 would have laid claim to had it simply been online.

Strong disagreement for all the reasons posted. :)

[davidbrit2]

See, that's the thing, Forza doesn't really have any "control issues". I'm playing it right now, and it makes excellent use of the analog input, and probably couldn't be improved upon much without using an actual racing wheel. Or a Negcon, maybe. ;-) Sure, it's a little easier to drift than in GT4 I've noticed, but I hardly find that to be a deficiency.

The graphics don't look any better or worse than GT4. Just different. It's better in some aspects, worse in others.

I will grant you that GT4 has better sound. Some of the collision and scraping noises in Forza sound a bit like a watermelon being hit with a blunt object. But I can still hear my engine revs just fine, and the tire sounds are quite nice, so it's all good. And you can rip a CD to make up for the crummy sound track. Heh.

[devils advocate]

Yeah, you can beat up the internals of your car too - engine, gearbox, brakes, drivetrain, suspension, steering, etc. Limping across the line with your car pulling to the side because your steering and drivetrain got jacked up in a wreck takes a steady hand indeed. And maybe you'll pass by your spoiler laying in the middle of the road on the next lap. Ha ha.

I know that from Nascar racers. Maybe we have different standards of damage modeling and how they should affect driving.

Well, lets leave it that way: the big advantages of Forza are online gaming and damage modeling. Otherwise, it falls short.

Honestly, I was disappointed. Features, non-features, fewer or more tracks aren't so important. Control and car physics engine in order to give the feeling for different cars, steering, and speed in order to get the optimized curve line are important for racers. They are gameplay. Unless this demo is screwed up (which I doubt), Forza falls short.


You really are not listening to people, are you?

The demo DOES fall short. Google it, go to www.xbox.com forza forums, or LISTEN.

The demo falls short. You need to try a retail version of this game.

Again, for the peanut gallery. It is widely known the forza demo falls far short of the finished product.

Now my personal opinion.... I almost stayed away from forza, due to the demo. Laguna Seca looks almost 2d, for lack of a better explanation, and hey, wheres the damn scenery?. The cars look AND feel like a bad Sega GT port. Overall, the demo lacks any sense of speed, and really makes you wonder if "sim" is supposed to mean slow.

Now. Go try the retail version.

I guess the reason for the five month delay, is that MS actually listened to their pathetic reviews on the demo, and fixed the final version. It's like a completely different game.

[Fuyukaze]

I say go with Forza. My reasons are fairly simple. I perfer my x-box over my PS2. That isnt a great reason so it all boils down to what you plan to do with it. If your looking for a solid single player experience, I would still want to say Forza, but even I would have to admit GT4. If your looking for one with multiplayer, then definitly Forza. Either one will make you happy though.

[petewhitley]

If your looking for a solid single player experience, I would still want to say Forza, but even I would have to admit GT4. If your looking for one with multiplayer, then definitly Forza. Either one will make you happy though.

Yeah. I'm the kind of guy that would usually have more fun playing Pong with a buddy than Grand Theft Auto alone (nothing against Grand Theft Auto ...). Thus, Forza is a no-brainer for someone like me.

[InsaneDavid]

You can FINALLY (and I do mean FINALLY, that BS hackjob in Wreckless on the XBox doesn't count) drive a DeLorean in GT4. No contest, GT4 takes the checkered flag right there.

Seriously though, I have to agree with pretty much everything lendelin said...


I think we have an underdog phenomena here: because GT3 and 4 are and were so dominant, wishful thinking for a serious competitor as well as hype blurs the vision for Forza; in addition, GT4 didn't match all the expectations we had which results in a sympathetic view of Forza. Let me put it this way: GT3 was 3 laps ahead of the competition, other racers caught up over time. Today, GT4 is still one lap ahead; Forza doesn't come even close.

Online gaming and system link are great, but they doesn't make a very good racer an excellent one. Control issues and graphic issues are still there, online gaming or not. They are nice features to have, and if you emphasize online competition this is a selling point; but there is no way this racer is a serious competitor to GT4.

And yes I've played the release version of Forza. Forza is a decent racer (and second most impressive on the XBox next to the Rallysport games) and if you ONLY have an XBox then of course you should pick it up. But the whole game is really made to poke at the lack of online support in GT4, which doesn't hurt GT4 much at all because it's simply an amazing game and celebration of car culture. Forza is just another driving game that is matching to this era in console hardware, GT4 steps up a level.


One questionable aspect of the physics in Forza is that pretty much whenever you nick a wall at anything sharper than about a 15º angle, you end up flying into at least a 180 spin. It's especially bad in the tire walls. I'm not sure if that's as realistic as it ought to be...

My F500 experence is telling me "..uh.... no" then again if you want to be realistic about things a tire wall should screw you up to the point your race is over and getting pinned in kitty litter should either strand you or screw up your undercarrage. I can't comment about spinning 180 degrees if you nick a wall, at least in an F500 car since when you do that the suspension assembly usually crushes in and your end up eating the wall ... and losing a lot of $$ for repairs. :(

Really Forza seemed more like a third Pro Race Driver as opposed to some new ideas. While yeah, it's a fun game, it just doesn't seem to have the care and polish GT4 does.


Yeah, you can beat up the internals of your car too - engine, gearbox, brakes, drivetrain, suspension, steering, etc. Limping across the line with your car pulling to the side because your steering and drivetrain got jacked up in a wreck takes a steady hand indeed. And maybe you'll pass by your spoiler laying in the middle of the road on the next lap. Ha ha.

The first Pro Race Driver had that too, including losing gears which was the coolest (and most realistic) part of the game. However who's still paying Pro Race Driver? - No one. (although you can pick it up for like $5, was still a very realistic GT driving game for the PS2)

In the end Forza just didn't feel like real performance driving, it felt WAY to exagerated and underdeveloped - which is bad considering that in EVERY press announcement for the game all the PR guys could say is how REALISTIC and HARD the game was going to be.


I will grant you that GT4 has better sound. Some of the collision and scraping noises in Forza sound a bit like a watermelon being hit with a blunt object.

Again, GT4 simply has more care taken and higher production values.

Once more, they're both good games - but I want to play a DRIVING SIMULATION simply because I don't have the funds to go out and do it for real (was a problem with something as cost friendly as late model F500 in fact), Forza is NOT that and shouldn't be billed as that. It should be billed as the quintessential racer for the XBox. GT4 is the quintessential racer for this year. While Forza will sell well it won't hang around like GT3 did, which MANY MANY people continued to play religiously up until the release of GT4 simply because it was so enjoyable and well made.

[jdc]

I *was* a diehard GT fan. I played GT 1, 2 and 3 like a gamer possessed because it was the best there was. GT4 came along and handed me the biggest disappointment in recent memory. Forza is everything that GT4 was supposed to be, but never ended up being. I've clocked plenty of time on both games.

There is no comparison between GT4 and Forza. Forza tops it by a country mile. Forza is the new heir to the king of racing franchises. Forza did what Polyphony had been promising for the last 2 installments....but never delivered. Like the old saying "Fool me once, shame on you...fool me twice, shame on me."

It's all about A.I......and Forza delivers variable A.I. that doesn't follow a prescribed "track" around the race course. While I realize that there are proper lines on a course, GT4 still features the unmoveable robotic opponents that INSIST on driving the same way every race, every lap, like a spoiled child who can't have his own way. GT4 is predictable...and people like it because it is very easy to simply pick another line, blow by the A.I. cars and win. Every race in Forza is different and the cars double team, overtake, brake, hang back, de-accelerate and pass, make errors and choose different lines. Don't believe me? Go ahead...start a race, observe the A.I positioning and patterns for a lap....then quit out and restart the exact same race. It'll be significantly different. Not only that.....but the driver A.I differs depending on which class you race....a sportsman's class race which will have less experienced racers, and as expected, is remarkably different than GT1 pro.

Who cares about GT4's tons of tracks and tons of cars...if the A.I. still sucks? It was supposed to be fixed....but Polyphony couldn't do it. Forza shows them how. Just as the previous posts have all demonstrated, GT4 is heaps of show and not enough go.

[petewhitley]

Once more, they're both good games - but I want to play a DRIVING SIMULATION simply because I don't have the funds to go out and do it for real (was a problem with something as cost friendly as late model F500 in fact), Forza is NOT that and shouldn't be billed as that. It should be billed as the quintessential racer for the XBox. GT4 is the quintessential racer for this year.

Here's your mistake: GT4 is the quintessential driving simulator for this year. The actual act of driving your car solo around the track is more realistic. However, Forza is the quintessential racer for this year, because of the fact that it sports better computer-A.I. and online human opponents, thus offering a far more realistic representation of an actual race.

[koltz]

Personally I like the Xbox over the PS2, but on the subject, IGN has a hi res quicktime video of them both side by side. Detail wise the Xbox version looking much nicer than GT4. The main thing I have for racing games is handling. Haven't played either of them, but will have Forza soon. Will probably try GT4 on my PSP when it is released though.

Corey

[Oobgarm]

GT4. It's got a much better sense of speed and you feel like you're more 'connected' to the track below. It's got better presentation, too. It's by no means perfect, of course.

Forza is in no way a bad game, it's got some neat things going for it that will really make it stand out once the core gameplay element is refined a bit further. It all just feels a bit bland to me for some reason.

[stevec1636]

I didn't vote for either, HATED both games. I know nothing about cars or how to set them up. Neither game has any sence of speed. Give me a game like Burnout 3 ( the best racing game ever ) and i will be happy forever.

[slip81]

Having not played either and read all of the responces I think I'm goingto go with Forza for now and get GT4 later on because of the online aspect in Forza.

I figure I can get Forza now, have a blast with the online modes, and then in about a year or two when no one is on the server anymore and GT4 is $20 I'll get that and have fun all over again :)

I figure if I wait to get Forza when it's cheap no one will be online and I'll be stuck with a single player game that's good, but not quite GT caliber.

[lendelin]

Yeah, you can beat up the internals of your car too - engine, gearbox, brakes, drivetrain, suspension, steering, etc. Limping across the line with your car pulling to the side because your steering and drivetrain got jacked up in a wreck takes a steady hand indeed. And maybe you'll pass by your spoiler laying in the middle of the road on the next lap. Ha ha.

I know that from Nascar racers. Maybe we have different standards of damage modeling and how they should affect driving.

Well, lets leave it that way: the big advantages of Forza are online gaming and damage modeling. Otherwise, it falls short.

Honestly, I was disappointed. Features, non-features, fewer or more tracks aren't so important. Control and car physics engine in order to give the feeling for different cars, steering, and speed in order to get the optimized curve line are important for racers. They are gameplay. Unless this demo is screwed up (which I doubt), Forza falls short.


You really are not listening to people, are you?

The demo DOES fall short. Google it, go to www.xbox.com forza forums, or LISTEN.

The demo falls short. You need to try a retail version of this game.

Again, for the peanut gallery. It is widely known the forza demo falls far short of the finished product.

Now my personal opinion.... I almost stayed away from forza, due to the demo. Laguna Seca looks almost 2d, for lack of a better explanation, and hey, wheres the damn scenery?. The cars look AND feel like a bad Sega GT port. Overall, the demo lacks any sense of speed, and really makes you wonder if "sim" is supposed to mean slow.

Now. Go try the retail version.

I guess the reason for the five month delay, is that MS actually listened to their pathetic reviews on the demo, and fixed the final version. It's like a completely different game.

Oh, I'm listening carefully. :) You aren't a gentle devil's advocate for sure.

[lendelin]

Ok, this evening I had time and went to a gamestore. I know the guys there very well, they plugged in Forza for me, and I played the 'mysterious' and supposedly better retail version. (45 minutes, the demo I played for an hour)

Everything, but everything I said in my former posts holds up! If someone says that the retail version is a completely different game than the demo, he deserves the prize for best comedian.

I can't say a thing about the career mode, but the core values of a racer as I described them fall short, awfully short compared to GT3 and GT4: the subtle differences in handling the different cars, the feel for speed, the sense of realism, the feeling that you are attached to the track and in control; and if someone tells me that the graphics are on par with GT, or dives into relativism that they are just different, I recommend an eye examination.

The car modeling, tracks, and the surroundings fall way short compared to GT4.

I also read the review on IGN again, I also watched their two videos (review and some little propaganda movie about online features), read a bit in the Xbox forums, and read the online review of GamePro.

I did it because I think there is hype about this game, and unfortunately gamers who are blinded by it. This is why why I posted anyway, not because of Forza. This game is a perfect example of clever advertising, great marketing, and some gamers who fall for it.

Clever marketing, I have to admit. The publisher took the two biggest complaints about GT, car damage and online play, introduced it, runs with it and hypes them. As a result the game seems to be a serious competitor to GT, and the exploited weak points of the competitor deflect from where it really counts.

All I hear is online mode, car clubs, again online mode, rankings, again online mode, making new online friends, and right away after that it is the damage model, and customize your car with paint jobs. Cool, awesome, that makes it a better game. In particular the little feature "paint job." I was already very impressed by that in Nascar 2003. Just awesome.

Guys, online mode doesn't improve the controls, the graphics, feel for speed, and subtle differences in car handling; the damage model doesn't go beyond which was already done and could be had in GT4 (maybe the GT4 developer has higher standards), and the little feature of painting your car...gimme a break. Oh, I know, it is VERY important for online play.

It is a good game, no doubt about it; I'll buy it when it is cheaper. But guys, c'mon, sit back, go in cold and distant view mode, imagine how this game fares in five years from now compared to GT3 and GT4, and you will come to your senses.

The hype isn't as bad as it was for Enter the Matrix which also blurred the vision of some gamers and journalists because of exclusive cutscenes, but I still some common sense and objectivity is needed. Treat features as features, and core qualities as core qualities.

I predict that in five years from now GT4 can still be played and is fun, and the game will be remembered. All of the above doesn't apply to Forza. Little features won't survive because they will be common, but core gameplay will.

[davidbrit2]

Guys, online mode doesn't improve the controls or the graphics

Hey guess what, they don't need to be improved. Now if you'll excuse me, I'll go back to having an absolute blast with my shitty inferior game.

[lendelin]

Now if you'll excuse me, I'll go back to having an absolute blast with my shitty inferior game.

I knew that already from your earlier post: :)


Yeah, online play is pretty much the reason I bought Forza, since GT4 already gave me a perfectly fine single player experience. If Forza weren't online, I probably wouldn't have bothered, since my Logitech wheel only works with PS2 anyway. But since I have Live, I'm glad I got it. It's an absolute blast in multiplayer.

For me this is not about Forza or GT4, or trashing or praising a game. It is about clever marketing hype. That doesn't mean that you can't have fun with Forza. If your emphasis is online play, Forza is certainly a better choice and more enjoyable, no doubt.

[felix]

http://img107.echo.cx/img107/934/omfgdrama9vp.jpg

They are 2 great games that just happen to both be racing games...

Its like trying to compare Zelda vs Final Fantasy.. they are both RPGS, they are both on the NES, they both are great games but very different.. but which one should you buy?? who cares.. buy them both..

[petewhitley]

I predict that in five years from now GT4 can still be played and is fun, and the game will be remembered. All of the above doesn't apply to Forza. Little features won't survive because they will be common, but core gameplay will.

But it won't, just as nobody is still playing GT2. In five years we'll all be playing GT6. But we will have two distinct kinds of memories: sitting alone playing GT4, and playing Forza online with seven other like-minded gamers. Personally, my greatest gaming memories include multiplayer experiences. GT4 can't offer that, and it's a damn shame. All the graphical and handling tweaks in the world can't make a game multiplayer. I believe a strong argument can be made that just as many memories (or more) will be made out of the intense online competition of Forza.

[petewhitley]

Its like trying to compare Zelda vs Final Fantasy.. they are both RPGS, they are both on the NES, they both are great games but very different.. but which one should you buy?? who cares.. buy them both..

I don't think it's like that at all. It's like trying to decide between Elder Scrolls III: Morrowind and Everquest. Morrowind offers a more defined narrative, whereas Everquest offers a more social experience. They both do many similar things at a similar level of quality. It depends on what you value in gaming.

[lendelin]

All the graphical and handling tweaks in the world can't make a game multiplayer.

Wow, that is some statement. So, the online multiplayer feature is more important than controls, subtleties of physics engines, sense of speed, graphics, and overall polishment of a game?

On a related note, I'm glad that I found some realism in the review in the recent GI after reading a terrible, almost propagandistic GT4 - Forza comparison on GamePros website.

GI (closing comment):

"Forza is certainly not a jack-of-all-trades in the bad sense,
but instead, a racer that does a lot more than any other and is good, but not great, at most of these ideas. If there's an overall problem with Forza, it's that the game isn't polished into the slick experience that others have recently offered."

Good, realistic review, overall score: 8.5. Second score given: 8.25

InSaneDavid, Oobgarm and I are right. It is a good racer, worthwhile having and playing, but by no means an outstanding one like GT3 and 4; but it is a great example for hype.

[petewhitley]

All the graphical and handling tweaks in the world can't make a game multiplayer.

Wow, that is some statement. So, the online multiplayer feature is more important than controls, subtleties of physics engines, sense of speed, graphics, and overall polishment of a game?

I don't think it's that hard to believe. Some gamers (a large number I might add) value multiplayer capability above all. It's as simple as that. Some of us prefer the solo experience, while some of us vastly prefer the multiplayer experience. Personally, give me two games that perform similarly but not equally well in "controls, subtleties of physics engines, sense of speed, graphics, and overall polishment" and I'll choose the inferior yet multiplayer game every time.

[davidbrit2]

Yeah, so it's a good game. End of story. We don't care about alleged "hype" or "propaganda" here. Some people overdid their excitement, some didn't. And the rest of us just bought the damn game, played it, and loved it. Heh.

[AtariBuff]

I voted GT4 for obvious reasons ;)

[dethink]

having played both extensively, being a car nut for as long as i can remember, playing every non-nascar racing game under the sun, and putting in plenty of track day in real life...i am torn. (cliffs notes: long read ahead)

forza's physics (assuming you've turned the assists off) are more realistic in some areas, and less in others. i have yet to experience a spinout in forza that results in a 3000lb car spinning around like a top at low speed (i.e. back end of a RWD car comes around at 20-30mph in a *sharp* corner), completely ignoring the laws of inertia.

the cars actually DO feel much different from each other, unlike the GT series, where the nuances of all the popular japanese cars are spot on (or can do superhuman things they cannot in real life), and the other ones...not so much...an elise feels like it weighs as much as your coffee table, and the muscle cars do feel unsafe at any speed. many of the cars in GT4 don't exhibit any remarkable individual character.

for example, in forza, the subaru RS exhibits typical subaru understeer much like in real life. the methods with coping for under/oversteer work almost exactly as they do in my real impreza RS, which initially led me to believe the physics are a tad more realistic than GT4. however, the physics on mid engine and FWD cars are kind of wonky. going into a turn and not getting enough oversteer in a FWD car? use the handbrake to somehow induce power-on oversteer that is controlled *exactly* like that of a RWD car, even though the front wheels are the ones pulling the car through a turn. you should NOT be able to drift a civic like a silvia, yet in the game, you practically can. mid engine cars either seem to have too much drift or stick, depending on which one you're driving. i've owned a mid-90's MR2, and while they can be a handful, they will not swap ends as easily as in the game.

once again, i'm torn. one does things right, one does things right the other does not.

what forza does get right, is throttle control - you simply cannot mash the gas in a 600hp race car exiting a turn, and expect to keep the car going where you point it. nor can you just hammer it off the starting line, and expect to launch optimally, or not damage the engine. brake control is another matter, as trying to drive with ABS off without a brake mod and proper adjustment is an exercise in suicide. however, throttle control like this was done before in TOCA2, and codemasters got the threshold of locking/not locking the brakes to feel intuitive and natural through a controller.

i DO prefer GT4's control feel however. in forza, no matter what it feels like there's a layer of pudding between my inputs and the car. GT4, for better or twitchier, at the limit just feels sharper.

car customization in forza is LIGHT YEARS ahead of GT4. it's so refreshing to see things like real lb/in spring rates, rather than just an arbitrary 1-20 value on a slider in a menu. the classification of cars adds a strategic element to modification, much like SCCA rules in real life. sure i could slap a WRX swapped engine in my car, but do i really want to be put in a class with full-on race cars where it won't be competitive? on the flipside, this allows the player to hang on to their hard earned cars longer, since they are competitive in more than one race, something that always irked me about GT after the original - a lot of the fun came from taking that suped up integra, and having it be competitive with faster cars, something that's been downplayed in the GT series from #2-on, the races have become very car specific. however, the only thing that irks me about the modding scheme is that only tire/weight/power mods affect your class, which leads me to possibly entertain the notion that suspension tweaking really doesn't amount to a hill of beans at a certain point. taking my modded impreza, and maxing out the upgrades led to a huge jump in acceleration & top speed ratings, but moving up to the top grade brake kit only marginally improves braking (same with suspension), which means at a certain point, you WILL overpower the chassis, and this is where things get a bit unrealistic. at a certain point, it seems the character of the car is determined by the pre-determines stats (i.e. the car is rated at a 4.6 in handling stock, and the suspension, no matter how it's set adds 0.5pt to the rating) and not the actual tuning. it IS possible to make a 600hp impreza turn in real life with proper tuning. however, once my accel & top speed ratings far outclassed the largely preset handling/braking ratings, no matter how the suspension was set, it would just push and push and push and was severely under-equipped in braking (even with a full upgrade), unless you drove it like you graduated from the tif needlen/top gear school of oversteer, which is fun and looks cool, but is hardly the fastest way around a track. it seems most of the handling tuning comes in the form of tire choice/air pressure (which doesn't suprise me considering how much time was supposedly spent on tire physics), which once again defeats the purpose of having all this customization in the first place.

and i'm sorry, maybe its the designer in me, but the paint editor rocks. a much cooler frou-frou feature than photo mode. :D being able to customize the car visually is cool, though many of the kits aren't exactly subtle or attractive. GT4 wins out on custom wheel choices though. many in forza are downright UGLY. LOL nothing like getting your car looking ace, then having to stick with the stock wheels, since there's only 3 or 4 non-ugly sets, and none of them look right on that car. ;)

graphically, forza has some texture swap problems, and the cars, while featuring much more impressive polygonal detail than GT4, just don't look "right." GT's cars are "flat," but their attention to texture detail makes them appear much more realistic at a far glance than forza, though forza is extremely impressive up close - things like trunklid badges, headlight housings, etc. are fully rendered. forza's trackside detail kills GT's, yet like many xbox games, feels a bit clinical. however, the draw distance retains that typical xbox "sweeping vista" feel, and on courses with long straights, it is impressive. bump mapping on track surfaces is also impressive...on the final corner of road atlanta, you almost feel like you could pause the game, run your fingers across the tire marks on the track, and they'd be covered with grease, grime, and bits of tire. realtime reflections in forza seem to move at 1/2 the framerate of the game. polyphony shows that attention to artistic detail wins out over power, as GT4 just plain looks better, despite the fact that it's not pushing as much detail...though things like the poorly dithered textures on the sides of cars with vast expanses of flat bodywork (R34 skyline) are butt ugly, and gotta go. in terms of graphics, both are very good, but in different areas. i still feel PGR2 is by far the best looking racer of this gen.

a rock solid 60fps doesn't hurt GT4 either, though i found forza's sensation of speed to be very realistic, even if the framerate doesn't give that broadcast-like feel.

to be honest, online career in forza bores me to tears. one car is competitive in each class, that's what everyone mods and uses, and thus the point of hundreds of different cars is thrown right out the window. i found the "anything goes" unranked games are much more fun, where you can call up a couple friends, turn the damage to cosmetic, and sling your D-class cars that you've turned into fun but non-competitive in ELO mode S-class monsters around a track barely in control. plus waiting for games to start, everyone to pick through their 100's of cars, etc. borrring. though i must say, if you get in a good crowd that doesn't spend all afternoon tweaking and selecting things before a race, it's the best experience i've had on XBL. no screaming smurf-voiced kids, no one deliberately trying to fuck anyone up...someone bumped me in a corner during my first online race, and said "sorry"... O_O LOL

anyways, i've rambled and dissected for far too long. forza is a terrific first effort for MS, and does everything GT doesn't, though GT still benefits from not being the newcomer, and just having more attention to detail and polish on the game end of things. if there's a jump from forza 1 -> 2 like PGR 1 -> 2, gamers are in for a treat.

...however, nothing, nothing in forza got my palms sweating like that one final license test in GT4 where you are driving the nissan LM car down a long straight at 220+, the car begins skipping across the pavement, and you feel like you could lose it at any second. nope, forza lacks those heart stopping moments, and to me that's half the fun of racing games.

buy which ever one you have the system for. 8-)

8.0/10 - an excellent first effort (that wasn't in development anywhere near as long *chortle*), but it's going up against the gold standard juggernaut of racing games.

[davidbrit2]

...however, nothing, nothing in forza got my palms sweating like that one final license test in GT4 where you are driving the nissan LM car down a long straight at 220+, the car begins skipping across the pavement, and you feel like you could lose it at any second.

You ain't seen shit until you've done those with one of the Logitech force feedback wheels. Dear god, talk about intense. O_O

[legov8]

I wouldn't know because I've never played either of those before. They both look like very nice racers to me.

[hydr0x]

...however, nothing, nothing in forza got my palms sweating like that one final license test in GT4 where you are driving the nissan LM car down a long straight at 220+, the car begins skipping across the pavement, and you feel like you could lose it at any second.

You ain't seen shit until you've done those with one of the Logitech force feedback wheels. Dear god, talk about intense. O_O

i was about to say that, best racing game experience i EVER had, you can feel every damn flaw of the track and if you loose your wheel for ~0.1s then your car is gone, i've played the full version of Forza but nothing came close to overtaking cars at that speed on that part of the LM track

and i agree with what some people said, Forza doesn't make you feel like you 100% control the car, and that kills the game for me

[dethink]

i was about to say that, best racing game experience i EVER had, you can feel every damn flaw of the track and if you loose your wheel for ~0.1s then your car is gone, i've played the full version of Forza but nothing came close to overtaking cars at that speed on that part of the LM track

and i agree with what some people said, Forza doesn't make you feel like you 100% control the car, and that kills the game for me

if someone could show me actual proof that forza is indeed more "realistic," that's all fine and dandy, but let's face it. neither is going to be 100% realistic, as nothing is going to simulate seat of the pants g-forces/sensation of speed which are an integral part of car control IRL. GT does this a lot better in 4, as you can actually feel the track irregularities, and have a much better sense of when all hell is about to break loose if you blink.

forza's interaction with the track surface feels a lot like GT3, i.e. everything is perfectly smooth.

having said that, as far as gameplay goes, i prefer forza for now. :D it is much better in it's pacing/progression scheme than GT. no farming the same races over and over and over for cash, and i hate to say it, but the superfluous features ARE fun. maybe it's just because i've played a ton of the GT series, and am just sick of the "license tests, then farm the same easy race over and over until you can afford a skyline to get into the meat of the game, lather rinse repeat..."

[hydr0x]

@dethink

why did you quote me for your reply? i can't seem to find any connection between my post and your "reply"

[buttasuperb]

Forza

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