Troubling new eBay policy for non-premier Paypal users [Archive]

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esquire

06-07-2005, 10:14 PM

From time to time I sell items on ebay. For the most part, I am more a purchaser than seller. I have elected not to become a premier member of paypal as I do not sell that much and I do not see it worth the extra fees charged against each sale. Moreover, I do not like being charged a fee for a transaction that does not even use a credit card as the source of funds. To me, that is a scam.

So, I have always listed in my auctions that I do accept paypal as a mode of payment, but it can't be from a credit card. My exact words are"

"NO CREDIT CARDS! Payment must be from PayPal balance or electronic funds transfer from verified bank account ONLY!!"

Well, on Saturday I listed 78 auctions (they had been adding up and I wanted to list them all at once) using that phrase. Later the next day, I got an email from ebay stating that 7 of them were in violation of eBay's Keyword Spamming policy. I carefully examined the 7 auctions to see what was wrong. I found nothing different from these 7 auctions than my other 71 auctions. So I replied to ebay to please explain what was wrong. Today I got the following email:

Hello Dave,

Thank you for taking the time to write eBay with your concerns. My name is [name removed] and I'm happy to help you further.

I see that on June 5th you were sent a warning notice for violating our Keyword Spamming Policy (PayPal). A notice was sent to you, but it appears you have not received the 'evidence' or proof of the violation.
I will review the issue.

Your listings, for example, "Landstalker Instruction Manual for Sega Genesis" Item #8197050635 was found to be violating our Keyword Spamming policy because the description of your listing stated the
following:

"NO CREDIT CARDS! Payment must be from PayPal balance or electronic funds transfer from verified bank account ONLY!!)"

Seller's payment instructions

"I cannot and will not accept Paypal payments via credit card."

However, it appears you selected PayPal as an acceptable payment option when listing your item with all credit card logos being displayed.
Recently, our enforcement has changed with regard to the use of PayPal as a payment method. Members are permitted to select PayPal as an acceptable payment method when listing their item, however, the description of the listing cannot restrict the types of payments that can be made via PayPal.

Many members search for items in which sellers accept PayPal, and these same members often prefer to use credit or debit cards to fund their payment. By limiting the payment options that you accept via PayPal, this frustrates members who conduct a 'search' for listings which accept PayPal, only to discover that the seller does not accept credit or debit card funded payments but accepts only accept cash transfers via Paypal.

As such, these listings are found to be in violation of our Keyword Spamming policy because it affects the ability of our members to effectively search for items using their preferred payment method.

As such, here are your options:

1) You can select 'PayPal' as a payment method in the 'Sell Your Item'
form, however you are not permitted to place any restrictions on the payment methods you are willing to accept by PayPal. So, in this case, you would *not* be permitted to state: "I accept PayPal (NO CREDIT CARDS)", regardless of whether you would really accept them if presented to you.

OR

2) If you don't choose 'PayPal' as a payment method on the 'Sell Your
Item' form, the PayPal icon will not appear in your listings, and you
would then be permitted to then state:

"I accept PayPal (NO CREDIT CARDS)"

You may also want to review the following page for more clarification on
our guidelines regarding Search Manipulation:

http://pages.ebay.com/help/community/png-wordspam.html

Furthermore, PayPal account holders may not deceive buyers as to the
nature of their account. That is, if you advertise on a listing that you
accept credit card payments through PayPal, you must have a Premier or
Business PayPal account or be willing to upgrade from a Personal PayPal
account to a Premier or Business PayPal account when you receive your
first credit card-funded payment. Paypal requires this, the link below
under 'Receiving Payments' explains:

http://www.paypal.com/cgi-bin/webscr?cmd=p/gen/ua/policy_payments-outside

I'd like to thank you for taking the time to consult with us about the
warning notice you received. So long as you list your items in
accordance with suggestions I've outlined above and the pages I've
linked to, you shouldn't experience any future violations of our Keyword
Spamming guidelines.

Regards,

[name removed]
Community Watch Team
eBay Trust & Safety

At first I was furious. I thought (and I still may be right) that this was nothing more than a manner to extort me to join paypal as a premier member. After all, this was never a problem before. Morevoer, sellers restrict modes of payment all the time. The most common one I see is where sellers who take money orderrs state that they only take postal money orders. I don't see ebay going after these auctions.

So I sent the following reply:

Hello,

Thanks for your response. I am a bit troubled by this new policy and am going to have to further look into the legal ramifications of it. My reasons are as follows:

1. As ebay is well aware, paypal account holders cannot accept payments by credit card unless they are premier members. In order to upgrade to this account status, paypal members are charged a fee for each transaction, regardless of whether it is made with a credit card or not. For obvious reasons, those of us ebay members who are not "Power Sellers" choose not elect this to upgrade because it is not economically viable. We do not conduct enough transactions to make this worth our while. Cleayly, it is in paypal's best interest (and now ebay's as well, see below) to get paypal users to upgrade their accounts as they make money.

2. If paypal is selected as a payment option in an auction, it automatically inserts the credit card logo, regardless of whether the paypal member's account is premier or not. The ebay user has no control over this option. Perhaps it is paypal and ebay that needs to change their policies.

3. As ebay now owns paypal, it seems that this new policy is directly meant to force members to upgrade their paypal accounts. This seems to me to be extortive in nature and could potentially violate federal laws such as RICO. At the very least, it is not good business tactics on behalf of ebay and paypal in my opinion.

4. You state that many members search for auctions that accept papypal as a method of payment, and that the language I use "frustrates" these users because I limit the form of payment to "on hand funds" or from a "confirmed Bank account." However, paypal clearly offers at least two different types of accounts, it should not matter as far as ebay is concerned as a normal of accounts, premier and standard. So I do not understand ebay's reasoning here. If paypal only had one type of membership that accepted all forms of payment, and I was limiting the forms of payment by restricting credit card payments, then ebay might have a rational argument here. But clearly they do not.

The only reason I put those words of limitation is to let those ebay users know I do not have a premier account. I would be more than happy to place in my auction terms that "I am not a premier member and hence cannot accept payment by credit cards" provided that ebay allows me to continue this practice. I can assure you that my auctions are not meant to deceive anyone.

Moreover, the words of limitation in my auctions, which are based upon my paypal account's status, does not affect "the ability of our members to effectively search for items using their preferred payment method". Nothing is preventing them from using paypal as a form a payment. They can use funds from a bank account, which IS REQUIRED to obtain a paypal account to begin with. A credit card IS NOT REQUIRED to obtain a paypal account. Thus, the only thing affecting the "ability of [ebay's] members to effectively search for items using their preferred payment method" is their inability to save money to make purchase, rather than purchasing them on credit. This seems to me a problem that individual ebay members need to address personally.

Furthermore, if ebay's true intention here is to ensure the "ability of [ebay's] members to effectively search for items using their preferred payment method" by preventing the language used in my auctions, why does your email state that one of the solutions here is to withdraw the language from my auction terms, and simply list paypal as a form of payment, "regardless of whether you would really accept them [credit cards] if presented to you". This seems to defeat the entire purpose of excluding the language to begin with. For example, Joe Ebayer does a search for a specific item in an auction that accepts paypal. He sees my auction with the words of limitation and supposedly is frustrated (if he reads the entire auction terms before bidding, there should be no frustration). Now he also finds an auction for the same item, that accepts paypal, but without any words of limitation. It is only after he bids, wins the item and then attempts to pay via paypal with a credit card that he finds out the seller is not a premier member, and it is only then he learns that he cannot pay for the item using his preferred method of payment. It would seem to me the latter situation is more "frustrating" for all parties involved, including ebay. The reason I include ebay is that in my experience with users who choose to pay by paypal using a credit card, it is their only way to do so, and as a result a Non-Paying Bidder Complaint is filed. Ebay then has to refund the seller Final Auction Value Fees. Clearly, this is not in ebay's best interest.

Additionally, I see auctions that limit the types of money orderS (usually limited to postal money orders) that are acceptable as forms of payment and I do not see ebay cracking down on these auctions. It seems to me that ebay is being selective and only going after non-premier members of paypal in an effort to get them to upgrade. If ebay continues this policy, I will be forced to withdraw paypal as an option for payment. This will only mean less items sold, which means less revenue for ebay in the form of Final Auction Value Fees. I am sure ebay does not wish for this to happen.

I believe ebay needs to look into this matter further and examine the intention and ramifications of this new policy. Until then, I guess I am forced to alter my auctions in the meantime. As you can see, I have over 70 auctions going on right now, several with bids already placed. As I cannot change these auctions, I respectfully request that you do not cancel them as I was unaware of the change in policy before I listed them. For the remaining auctions, I will change the terms as soon as possible.

If ebay elects to change or withdraw this new policy, please let me know. In the meantime, I am going to further explore this matter.

Thank you

Did I do the right thing? Should I fear the wrath of ebay for questioning their policy? Clearly, at the very least, it is hypocritical. (See the 4th paragraph to Section 4, beginning 'Furthermore..')

SoulBlazer

06-07-2005, 11:07 PM

(Shrug) Don't see that much of a problem. I'm one of those people who admit to being frustarted when I search for PayPal auctions and then see they won't take it from a debit card. I prefer to use mine because it gives me a added layer of protection. (Yet another example of the buyer and seller's preferences not seeing eye to eye here).

So, you either don't list PayPal as a accepted method of payment and then say it in your auction listing, or you say you take PayPal and then contact any winning bidders to let them know you can't take a credit or debit card.

Does'nt affect me very much. Even if I was'nt a Preimer member (which I am), I'd do one of the two above things. :)

boredashell

06-08-2005, 12:46 AM

im not really sure in whole it seems both sides have arguments please keep me (if not this topic) going i am interested in how things play out

Promophile

06-08-2005, 12:51 AM

Heh i was faced with the same problem. Heres my suggestion, feel free to take it or leave it.

Just give in. The reason is that Ebay doesn't like people posting that they don't take credit card payments only because they want money from all Paypal transactions, and the other half of the reason is that half of the people on ebay are too stupid to read and/or understand when you post that you don't accept credit cards though paypal. I did the same thing as you orginally until I had 3 buyers in a row send me credit card payments through paypal which I had to reject. Got a negative out of it too. Don't fight the system, you can't win.

video_game_addict

06-08-2005, 01:31 AM

If you're not gonna accept Paypal credit card payments you shouldn't have this image posted in your auctions:

http://pics.ebaystatic.com/aw/pics/paypal/imgEcheck.gif

Drop it & it shouldn't be a problem.

The fact is, it does piss people off when they see the paypal logo, and you see it without even clicking your auctions, only to open the auction up, & find out there are special circumstances for the way paypal payments can be accepted.

Alot of buyers only use credit card payments thru Paypal to buy with, as it takes longer to verfiy bank accounts, & it also requires more trust in paypal, or possible risks, in giving out personal checking account info. Having a Paypal account tied to your banking account is an unnecessary risk to some. While most credit cards offer online protection. SO it's more acceptable to use a credit card with paypal.

For most buyers, unless they're selling on the side, they are never gonna end up with a balance on paypal. So it's impossible for some paypal users to pay you with transfers.

If you want to take full advantage of paypal exposure, listing it as an accepted form of payment, then you need to make all forms of it acceptable. Otherwise you are penalizing honest ebayers. And it is wrong on your part to do so.

Few people are using money orders on a regular basis. Or at least it pales in comparison, to Paypal in my experience. Probably by around 100 to 1. And that's paypal transactions to money orders received in the past 6 months or so.

Ebay & paypal do advertise the quick & easy form of payment that is paypal, and that it only takes minutes to setup & pay anyone. Only takes a credit card, blah blah.. Well your auctions are the false advertisements to their infomercials.

video_game_addict

06-08-2005, 01:38 AM

So, you either don't list PayPal as a accepted method of payment and then say it in your auction listing, or you say you take PayPal and then contact any winning bidders to let them know you can't take a credit or debit card.

OKay, see this would be wrong too. & it will lead to more problems in the future. If you say you accept paypal (and not just some specific types of paypal) then after someguy bids & wins you explain well I only accept these types... then you're gonna end up with more pissed off people, as not all will be able to pay, and again you've falsely advertised your auctions.

Nes

06-08-2005, 01:46 AM

What difference does it make to the seller whether the paypal funds are from a credit/debit card or taken directly from a bank account?

esquire

06-08-2005, 02:13 AM

If you're not gonna accept Paypal credit card payments you shouldn't have this image posted in your auctions:

http://pics.ebaystatic.com/aw/pics/paypal/imgEcheck.gif

Drop it & it shouldn't be a problem.

The problem is, I don't put that in my auctions. Paypal does, and there is no way to take it out unless I completely remove paypal as a method of payment. You can see now where I am coming from. Paypal allows two diiferent accounts. If you use paypal in your auction, paypal puts the logo in, not me. There is no option just to say paypal. Moreover, paypal wants you to upgrade, and that's why they do that. That and ebay's policy clearly is an attempt to force paypal users to upgrade.

The fact is, it does piss people off when they see the paypal logo, and you see it without even clicking your auctions, only to open the auction up, & find out there are special circumstances for the way paypal payments can be accepted.

I can sympathize with that, but I can't sympathize with people who do not completely read the terms of an auction. Moreover, your point is completely defeated by ebay's accepted option, #1 as listed in their email to me:

1) You can select 'PayPal' as a payment method in the 'Sell Your Item' form, however you are not permitted to place any restrictions on the payment methods you are willing to accept by PayPal. So, in this case, you would *not* be permitted to state: "I accept PayPal (NO CREDIT CARDS)", regardless of whether you would really accept them if presented to you.

So their solution is just remove the language altogether, let the bidder win the auction and only then when he pays am I supposed to tell him too bad, I can't accept paypal by credit card, even though my auction never said so. This seems to be worse of two evils, whereas my auction, if completely read like any auction is supposed to, let's them know up front.

Alot of buyers only use credit card payments thru Paypal to buy with, as it takes longer to verfiy bank accounts, & it also requires more trust in paypal, or possible risks, in giving out personal checking account info. Having a Paypal account tied to your banking account is an unnecessary risk to some. While most credit cards offer online protection. SO it's more acceptable to use a credit card with paypal.

Ahh, but I do accept Bidpay, so this shouldn't be a problem. If they don't wan't to use verified funds from a bank account, they may use Bidpay. Bidpay is the proper way to run payments by credit card. The fees, like any business, are passed along to the consumer, not the seller. Yes, I know Visa/Master Card charge vendors fees for using their card, but these fees are ultimately passed along to the consumer in the form of price increases. What makes matters worse is that ebay strictly forbids sellers for charging extra for paypal fees. This is not how the standard business model works.

For most buyers, unless they're selling on the side, they are never gonna end up with a balance on paypal. So it's impossible for some paypal users to pay you with transfers.

Wrong. If they have a verified bank account (which is required to join paypal, they can transfer funds into their account. It takes 3-4 days to clear. No different than an E-Check. Now if they don't have any money in their bank account, that is another story, and not my problem. If that is the case, perhaps they should not be buying things on ebay to begin with.

If you want to take full advantage of paypal exposure, listing it as an accepted form of payment, then you need to make all forms of it acceptable. Otherwise you are penalizing honest ebayers. And it is wrong on your part to do so.

I strongly disagree with you here. So long as there are two forms of paypal accounts and both are permitted on ebay, I should not have to upgrade my account. Perhaps eay and paypal may change that some day, but until then I should not have to upgrade my account. If any one needs to change their policy then its paypal by allowing ebay sellers to insert their logo without credit cards in it. Moreover, ebay should clearly allow sellers to differentiate what type of account they have with paypal. There is nothing wrong with that. The bidder ultimately benefits from being informed up front.

Few people are using money orders on a regular basis. Or at least it pales in comparison, to Paypal in my experience. Probably by around 100 to 1. And that's paypal transactions to money orders received in the past 6 months or so.

I see more and more people moving away from paypal because of the fees, buyer fraud etc. I'm not saying you are wrong here, I'm just saying paypal is becoming more discouraging to use for some people.

Ebay & paypal do advertise the quick & easy form of payment that is paypal, and that it only takes minutes to setup & pay anyone. Only takes a credit card, blah blah.. Well your auctions are the false advertisements to their infomercials.

First, my auctions have nothing to do with their infomercials, nor are my business practices anyway affiliated with paypal's business, so there can no false advertising. Moreover, my auctions are straightforward and upfront, as opposed to recommended option by ebay where only after the auction ends do I tell the bidder that I can't accept their payment.

esquire

06-08-2005, 02:16 AM

esquire

06-08-2005, 02:19 AM

What difference does it make to the seller whether the paypal funds are from a credit/debit card or taken directly from a bank account?

In order to accept payments by credit card, you have to upgrade your account to premier status. Once you do that, paypal charges you a fee for each transaction you receive money on, regardless of whether the funds originated from a credit card!!!!

SoulBlazer

06-08-2005, 02:56 AM

Have I mentioned how SMALL that fee is?

Like if I recieve $30 from someone for buying a game on EBay, they take out 30 cents. I can live with that.

And I know that as a buyer, if it's a risky transaction (read: expensive, not good feedback, etc.) I'll ALWAYS pay PayPal with a credit card. That way, I have protection from both PayPal AND the Credit Card company, which, in my experience, is MUCH better in protection then PayPal is. :)

But then again, as I'm always saying, I sell 99.9 percent of my stuff (and buy) on Amazon anyway, which I'm convienced is a better model all around. :D

If you don't want to upgrade or take the hassle of contacting sellers who win your auctions, just don't select PayPal as a option of payment when setting up your auction -- that way, there's no logo -- and then mention in the auction and in the payment terms that you will take PayPal but check transfers only. That's fine according to the e-mail EBay sent you. Yes, you will lose some possible buyers by doing this, but if you select 'Payment Methods -- see auction' (I THINK that's a option, is'nt it?) and then mention your terms in the auction, the SMART buyers are going to understand that.

I can see both sides point on this, and I do understand where you are coming from, but if I was in your shoes I'd do one of the two things above.

Mayhem

06-08-2005, 05:32 AM

Have I mentioned how SMALL that fee is?

Like if I recieve $30 from someone for buying a game on EBay, they take out 30 cents. I can live with that.

Erm... no... not as far as I'm aware, it's 3.9% plus 30c. On a figure as small as say $15, Paypal will take $1 of that for themselves.

For the record Esquire, I fully support your stand. I too was caught out by this sort of thing in the past, and given that Paypal can have non-credit card accounts, then the logo IS misleading and eBay SHOULD have two separate options for including that payment in the listings.

I await the response from eBay on this!

anagrama

06-08-2005, 05:43 AM

scorch56

06-08-2005, 06:33 AM

Hmmm.. I started to read this thread and found it very interesting especially since it hits close to home with me.. very often. I have been an eBay member since 1999; and a PayPal member for almost as long. I deal on eBay (or anywhere else on the net for that matter) under the same nym as here "scorch56"; so one can easily "look me up" on eBay and see my feedback. My buys on eBay outnumber my sales by 50 to 1 over the years as I am mainly a buyer; but believe me.. I've had my "woes" with BOTH eBay AND PayPal when I've BEEN both.

Right now.. I'm averaging about 5 buys a week on eBay. That's not much.. but my bidding is a lot more (I don't win everything I bid on obviously); and it's time consuming (Yes.. I work for a living as well ;) ). When I win small items (pricewise).. I usually pay for them via a direct debit through PayPal from my bank account. Yes.. PayPal is "tied" to my bank's checking account; and yes.. they have access and information about it.. but it's not like I have much choice if I am to have this option functional and it seems to be the best method of payment for "small time" (no offense intended) sellers such as the origianl poster. Does it make me uneasy? Sure.. but PayPal has never abused this right ,or made a mistake with me either.. in nearly four years. When it comes to expensive purchases.. I prefer to use my credit cards.. either out of convenience; added protection.. or sometimes.. obviously.. neccessity.

Having said all that there's not nearly a week that goes by where I pay a seller with my credit card through PayPal only to see it put "on hold" pending his acceptance. This is an immediate giveaway to me that he does NOT have a business or premier account but at that point I'm afraid the charge to my CC is already made and can't be canceled. Inevitabely (9 times out of 10) I recieve an e-mail from the seller asking me to pay via the "alternate" methods (There's RARELY any $ in my PP balance). Of course.. I always do.. but then I have to wait for my cc to be re-imbursed as well. Thank god I keep my balances low enough to keep this sort of thing from becoming a problem while I wait.. but it COULD put me over otherwise.. and besides it's just a pain in the arse to have to pay someone twice and wait for a refund.

Having said all of that.. I can sympathize with the poster as well. I have often had to point out to a seller that the "logo" we're talking about (which can be inserted very (maybe too) easily during a listing.. shows credit cards on it.. and is misleading. Who's fault is this? PayPal's obviously as it's "their" logo; and eBay's as well.. as THEY give no other option to sellers to indicate their "payment preferences" through PayPal easily when listing either. But the blame could also be placed a teeny tiny bit on the seller who could just as easily "leave out" the logo/link and type in his requirements (as the eBay rep pointed out). Sure it's a LITTLE bit more of a hassle.. but come on! Try and put yourself in the place of a buyer whose PayPal transaction ledger is full of refusals, refunds and credits back to his credit cards; and try and understand as well.

I also said I've been a seller before (maybe 50 transactions or so; not all of my seller feedback is listed because when eBay started differentiating betweent the two a couple of years back they didn't "nab" all of my previous seller actions because the bulk of them were too early back when I was a newb on evilBay) and as a seller.. I have to agree with SoulBlazer. I signed up as a premier account as soon as it was offered. I like the convenience of letting my buyers pay via credit card.. or WHATEVER method they choose. As for additional fees.. I MUST be doing something wrong ;but here's what always gets me when sellers cry about the "additional fees".. As far as I can remember.. PayPal has ALWAYS charged me a fee (%) no matter HOW a buyer pays. If they want to charge me a few pennies, dimes, bucks.. whatever.. more because a user uses a credit card.. so be it. The ONLY thing that is free for an eBay/PayPal user is paying; as long as I CAN remember. As for a $ charged even out of $15.. I could live with that as well.. or just factor it into my asking price (and NO.. I'm NOT talking about "fee avoidance" or surcharges for PP payments either.. I'm just talking about factoring it into my selling price).

scorch56

06-08-2005, 07:00 AM

[quote=video_game_addict]If you're not gonna accept Paypal credit card payments you shouldn't have this image posted in your auctions:

http://pics.ebaystatic.com/aw/pics/paypal/imgEcheck.gif

Drop it & it shouldn't be a problem.

The problem is, I don't put that in my auctions. Paypal does, and there is no way to take it out unless I completely remove paypal as a method of payment. [quote]

.. Uhmm.. that's not ENTIRELY true. When you insert the PP logo into your auction.. you're ALSO enabling the "Pay Now" button that pops up for the auction winner after he's won.. as well as the option to pay and link directly tp PayPal out of one's "My eBay" page.. that's all. It's simply a matter of convenience; and a fairly recent development between eBay and PayPal. In the OLD DAYS before this was.. I had to go into PayPal's site manually.. armed with all of my won auction's item numbers.. and seller's e-mail addresses and "semi-manually" pay each one separately (You could.. and still can.. even send a link to the actual auction page in your notice of payment to the seller.. manually by pasting the URL.. still can).. that's all. That's STILL an option.. and although it's a BIT more of a hassle.. would be TOTALLY acceptable to me if I won an auction and the seller LATER sent me an e-mail stating that I could pay him through PayPal via a bank account debit using his e-mail addy. As for losing customers because you don't have PayPal mentioned anymore.. 90% of my wins a few years back were paid with money orders (luckily.. my bank gives them to me for free).. today it's still about 10%. Sure I prefer to with PayPal.. but simply for convenience. A seller stating they ONLY accept MOs has NEVER stopped me from bidding. But what DOES piss me off are the inordinate # of them nowdays who demand to be paid by mail ALMOST as quickly as a PayPal transaction. I HATE mailing letters.. but if it's your ONLY method of payment.. you'd better give me time to get off my fatass and get all the crap together; get to the PO and get stamps.. yadda..yadda.. yadda.

PS1Expert

06-08-2005, 07:34 AM

Mayhem

06-08-2005, 08:14 AM

2) If you don't choose 'PayPal' as a payment method on the 'Sell Your
Item' form, the PayPal icon will not appear in your listings, and you
would then be permitted to then state:

"I accept PayPal (NO CREDIT CARDS)"

Given that, as Paypal told you, you can do the above and still accept Paypal without allowing credit cards, I fail to see the problem here.

But if people are searching auctions using the "Items listed with Paypal" tag (go on, check the search page for it), then if he hasn't specified he accepts Paypal via the selling page at the time, then his item(s) won't come up, regardless of whether he has said he takes Paypal in the listing.

That's part of the problem. To be flagged as accepting Paypal, means that image gets used in the listing. It's all part of the search criteria.

@PS1Expect - #1 is being clamped down on by eBay, they don't allow that now. #3 has been used by sellers since eBay started anyhow.

Flack

06-08-2005, 08:22 AM

Like if I recieve $30 from someone for buying a game on EBay, they take out 30 cents. I can live with that.

Do you have some kind of special rate or something? I just received $32 from someone and PayPal took out $1.23.

Sniderman

06-08-2005, 08:43 AM

Sorry, but this is gonna sound "dick-ish." Paypal is an eBay service. If you wanna use their service, you gotta play by whatever rules they enforce. Don't like it? Don't accept Paypal like many, many eBay sellers have done and still do. But if you want the ease of immediate payments, you're gonna have to bite the bullet and accept their terms. If you don't mind waiting for snail mail, tell Paypal to shove it and accept only checks and money orders from now on.

No brainer in my opinion. You just appear to want to have your cake and eat it too.

anagrama

06-08-2005, 08:56 AM

No brainer in my opinion. You just appear to want to have your cake and eat it too.

Agree 100%.

doubledownon11

06-08-2005, 09:20 AM

Paying the 3% through PayPal sucks to be able to accept credit cards, but I guess it kind of depends on what you sell. If you're selling high priced items, you're likely to get more bidders if you can accept credit cards. It should also help raise the price of the auction. You know how people get with those credit cards, "it's not real money, I can pay it back whenever I get the chance."

yok-dfa

06-08-2005, 09:34 AM

video_game_addict

06-08-2005, 09:34 AM

@esquire, Sorry I don't feel like quoting all that above, I'll try & keep short..

The logo is inserted by choosing paypal as a payment methond within EBAY. It's an ebay option. You must completely remove paypal as a method of payment in the setting up of the auction. This should not be a problem if you then state in the auction what you are willing to take.

In addition to the logo, there are also end of auction emails, & the links within my ebay, and on the closed auction page for the buyer, all of which will state you accept paypal. It's not gonna state you accept non-creditcard paypal. Someone else said this already above, they are correct.

There is not option for "just paypal" because you don't accept just paypal, you accept "1/2 paypal". As I said before, not everyone has banking accounts tied into their paypal, nor do they want them. So these buyers (I'd wager at least 25-50% of all paypal users) are not able to complete the transaction through paypal. Because you don't accept their form of Paypal.

You are completely right about the reading all terms of an auction. But the problem right now is, alot of people use paypal with nothing more than a credit card tied into that account. Then search ebay with auctions that accept paypal. They find your auctions, enter, & then see that you are falsely advertising paypal, when you in fact do not accept all paypal payments, only a limited form of paypal. You are wasting these people's time, and ARE spamming ebay with fake paypal logos that do not apply to your auctions.

And a verified bank account is not a requirement to join paypal. Verified address maybe, but not bank account. You can sign up in a few minutes with only a credit card.

Bottom line is, Paypal has two forms of accounts, but ebay doesn't differentiate between the two. As it stands now, ebay is only set up for users with the full paypal account, not any limited non-creditcard paypal accounts. So your at a disadvantage if you abide by their rules. That being drop the paypal logos & auto insertions.

Re-reading their reply to you, I don't follow how you think it would be alright to just hide the fact you can't accept paypal credit card payments, and keep the logos inserted.

It clearly states you not place any restrictions on paypal if you have the logos inserted (ie: list as paypal in the payment methods) What they are saying as an alternative, is that you drop the paypal logos and then it would be A-OK to state in the ad only via non-credit card funds.

Ultimately it's ebay's company, and it's their decision. It's doesn't seem like it's that hard to play along. Just seems liek you are a hardheaded guy who can't see why it would put off ebay members.. It's not like it's ebay who's coming down on you, it's the members who when searching listings, view yours as spam.

One alternative to keep the paypal logos on autoinsertion...

Open up a second paypal account to accept credits, and keep the current account as the main account a non-credit card funded account. Then at end of auction notifications, let buyers know if they need to pay using a credit card, to send to the alternate account that's set up that way. This way the bulk of your payments may still be fee free through balance transfers, & you'd be covered on the case where someone needs to use a paypal credit card.

esquire

06-08-2005, 09:37 AM

No brainer in my opinion. You just appear to want to have your cake and eat it too.

Agree 100%.

One could say the same thing about paypal/ebay. They allow 2 kinds of memberships, but are forcing sellers to become premier members so they can get their transaction fees. Yes, I can just drop paypal, but that doesn't change the fact that what they are doing is extortive, and that may violate the law, such as the RICO Act - i.e, the Racketeer and Corrupt Oganizations Act

Audigy

06-08-2005, 09:38 AM

I have an easy solution which buyers may not like (assuming you still want to accept paypal):

Become a Premiere Paypal account. Get charged the 3% for each transaction. Then:

1.) Just state in your auction that there is a 3% processing charge that the buyer will incur due to paypal fees if they use paypal,

No, no NO. That is explicitly against eBay rules. You may not impose any surcharge for PayPal or credit card payments. See this link:

http://pages.ebay.com/help/policies/listing-surcharges.html

Now, in my personal experience... after having dealt with an asshole who bought something through eBay using a credit card+Paypal combo (from my boyfriend), as a seller, I am reluctant to ever accept PayPal again.

Here's basically what happened... an item was listed, described completely, pictures were shown... auction explicitly stated no returns, item is guaranteed to work, and sold as-is. Buyer bought the item and immediately filed a claim with PayPal that "item is not as described" ...which amusingly, is not covered under PayPal's seller protection policy seen here:

http://www.paypal.com/cgi-bin/webscr?cmd=p/gen/ua/policy_spp-outside

so... the paypal account of the seller was debited the amount of the complete sale, including shipping, and I doubt if we'll ever see it again... even though neither the buyer nor the seller had officially "won" the case yet. Even if the seller wins, the buyer can then file a chargeback with his credit card company and get the money back anyway.

I'm surprised nobody has brought up this point yet. There are numerous complaints about it all over the web, on places like:

http://paypalsucks.com/forums/

So... be careful. Stick with your non-premier account, forget about putting the PayPal logo in your auctions, and just use big red bold text instead that says you accept PayPal from existing balance or account transfer only. :)

esquire

06-08-2005, 09:44 AM

@PS1Expect - #1 is being clamped down on by eBay, they don't allow that now.

Turn it around then. Always charge a 3% handling fee but give people a 3% discount if they use a money order, local pickup, cash, whatever, etc... According to eBay rules you are allowed to charge reasonable handling fees and if the terms are clear and mentioned in the auction, you are allowed to give out bonusses... This way you are not breaking any of their rules.

The problem is, you'll never know the handling fee amount until the auction ends, making it impossible to place a shipping charge up front, unless you simply estimate the item's FAV and add on a large enough handling fee to cover. But isn't that what most of us complain about here in the former "ebay insanity" forum? I try not to rip people off on shipping, but maybe you are right - I should charge a handling fee above my additional $1 that I typically add in.

esquire

06-08-2005, 09:47 AM

video_game_addict

06-08-2005, 09:56 AM

So... be careful. Stick with your non-premier account, forget about putting the PayPal logo in your auctions, and just use big red bold text instead that says you accept PayPal from existing balance or account transfer only. :)

That's still keyword spamming though. The logo may be gone (which was not really the problem) but my words of limitation would still be there, which was what originally prompted the email from ebay.

No Esquire, you are wrong! This would be the correct way to do it. as ebay as already told you. The spamming comes in the form of logos baring the credit card images, and the logos out beside your auctions that have the little 'pp' you get people to click your link based on that fact, and then once inside your auction, you reveal it's not all forms of paypal. But as long as you leave those logos off, then it doesn't matter what you type in the auction. You can even add your own paypal logo, like the bidpay one you ahve inside. But it just has to be done on your own, and not through the payments section of ebay.

scorch56

06-08-2005, 10:19 AM

As I said before, not everyone has banking accounts tied into their paypal, nor do they want them. So these buyers (I'd wager at least 25-50% of all paypal users) are not able to complete the transaction through paypal. Because you don't accept their form of Paypal.

..Actually that's not quite right either. Any buyer CAN pay a seller WITH his credit card as long as that logo is in the auction; but it's the "after-links" that let them go into Paypal and do it (I've done it many times before as I said in my previous posts). If the seller has a "normal" account PayPal STILL goes ahead.. charges your credit card immediately and marks THAT part of the transaction as "completed"; but then simply shows the money as having been transferred TO the seller and waits.. PENDING acceptance on the seller's side (it shows the money as unaccepted/unclaimed/pending in the seller's transaction records onsite). So in other words the buyer's credit is debited, applied.. and sits in "limbo" waiting for the seller to accept it. I assume.. (and have heard) that PayPal THEN sends the seller a notice telling him he has been "semi-paid" and invites him to sign up for a premier or business account to collect his money. It's kind of like PayPal is holding BOTH the buyer and seller "hostage"; including the buyers money/credit (depending on how you look at credit) until somebody relents. This has happened to me more times than I can count; and it's NOT because I DON'T read a seller's entire terms.. in my case.. I always do. It's because a seller simply inserts the logo and leaves it at that. If and when I see a seller mention he ONLY accepts a balance transfer or direct bank debit.. I may or may not simply bid depending on MY needs and method to pay at the time. Plain & simple.

So you can see how it pisses both of us off. Paypal gets to play with MY money for awhile.. and every time one of these "misunderstandings" occurs it gives them a chance to try and get an another upgraded account as well.

Not to mention.. have any of you waited for money to be credited BACK to your CC account? Especially when you could be using it elsewhere? It sucks and takes ALOT longer than it did to take it out. Go figure..

SoulBlazer

06-08-2005, 01:41 PM

Well, it may have something to do with the fact I've been a PayPal Premier member since 1997. Lower rates locked in, perhaps? :)

Anyway, to try to help you out, here's the four options I see that you have for your auctions:

1) I'm not sure if PayPal allows this, but you can try setting up a second account and have it Premier, as someone suggested. Keep your main account normal, and then you can use the premier ones if someone wants to pay by CC.

2) Remove the 'accept PayPal' in forms of payments (thus removing the logo and the spamming) and just mention everywhere else (auction, terms of shipping, etc.) that you accept PayPal from bank transfers only. According to the E-mail the EBay rep sent you, this is FINE and ALLOWED.

3) Upgrade your account.

4) Stop using PayPal all together.

Honestly, if I was in your shoes, I'd do #2.

Promophile

06-08-2005, 02:18 PM