UK rating systems and ethics (GTA being an "18")

[Gemini-Phoenix]

This is kind of an extention to *Esquire's* thread about Gamestop going too far here (http://www.digitpress.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=62763), yet outlines basically more or less the same sort of issues as *Esquire* was trying to put across...


I would invite you all to feast your eyes on this:

http://i1.ebayimg.com/02/i/04/32/42/31_1_b.JPG


As some of you may know - In the UK we have three different game rating systems. We have the PEGI and ELSPA rating systems, and then we have the BBFC classification / certification.

I won't go into too much detail about each, as I assume you all know what each one is, but in a nut-shell, the first two ae for GUIDANCE only, and the last one is LEGALLY BINDING


Basically, this means that if the game has the red circle with "18" emblazoned on it, then the store CANNOT sell to anyone below that age - As is the law in this country with Video's, Dvd's, and Video Games which display this certification.

However, if it has either an ELSPA or PEGI rating of "18" it can legally be sold to anyone under that age, seeing as how these two systems are there purely as a guide to parents to how suitable the game's content is. Again, IT IS NOT LEGALLY BINDING, unlike the BBFC classification.


The particular example of GTA Vice City I showed above is one I bought last week off of eBay. It is a European version, which has somehow managed to work it's way to UK shores, and DOES NOT have the BBFC classification, but instead has an ELSPA rating on it...

Now if this particular copy of this game were in a game shop (Eg, GAME) then they would be able to LEGALLY sell this to any child of, say, eleven years of age!!! @_@

Of course, there would always be some ethical questions to whether a child of that age should be buying the game (Seeing as how it is the exact same game, just with diferent packaging), but the fact still remains that it would be perfectly legal for me to sell this particular copy to a child of that age!

[Ed Oscuro]

I only see a mark on the package because you said it's there, and I don't see any red circle

[Gemini-Phoenix]

I only see a mark on the package because you said it's there, and I don't see any red circle

That's the point exactly.

Without the red circle displaying the "18", it means this game can legally be sold in the UK to minors.

The UK version actually does have the red circle "18" on it down in the bottom left where the ELSPA rating is.


Stores such as GAME or GameStation can legally sell this copy of this game to an under 18, because the package only displays an ELSPA rating, and not a BBFC classification.


Whereas a usual copy which does have the red circle would not be able to be sold to anyone under the age of 18.

[The_EniGma]

Strange, my UK Vcity has a 18 cirlce in it.

But at the end of the day it doesnt really matter, since you can always get someone bigger to buy it for you.

Vice city for an example (this really happend) i got with my ps2 cosnole in 2003 along with the getaway and mortal kombat all 18 games. And im 13 now, so i was 11 back then.

imo it depends on the person, i myself know the differences. Just because i chop someones head off in vice city with a bigass ninja sword doesnt mean i will do it in real life.

But back to topic, i thought PEGI WAS enforcable by law because once it ried to buy a pegi 16+ game but wasnt allowed to? Whereas the same 15+ elspa rated game would be fine...

[Mayhem]

Here, btw, is what it used to look like...

http://images-eu.amazon.com/images/P/B00006BXBV.02.LZZZZZZZ.jpg

And I fully understand what GP is going on about here. The ratings for games are guidelines and not legally binding. But the red circle is. Without it, the new version could be legally sold to minors without them needing to con their parents into buying it.

[The_EniGma]

Although this could be a one off case, because that 18 binding circle only works in the UK correct? So what if that is a french or spanish version, i this ELSPA was allover europe and pegi didnt come in till about christmas 2003

[Gemini-Phoenix]

But back to topic, i thought PEGI WAS enforcable by law because once it ried to buy a pegi 16+ game but wasnt allowed to? Whereas the same 15+ elspa rated game would be fine...

That's the misconception about it. A lot of plebs who work in these game shops believe that, and a lot of store managers try to enforce it, as it is just good ethics. Basically, they don't want to be held responsible for some 13 year old's mother coming back and ranting to them about how they sold an 18 game to a 13 year old.

I can safely assure you that the only one that is enforcable is the BBFC one.


If you check out the PEGI website (Here (http://www.pegi.info/index.html)) there is no mention of it being enforcable - That's because it isn't!

I know a kid who was under 15 and was refused a sims expansion pack because it had an ELSPA 15+ rating on it. I then told him i'd buy it for him because I felt sorry for him, as technically he shouldn't have been refused it.

[The_EniGma]

But back to topic, i thought PEGI WAS enforcable by law because once it ried to buy a pegi 16+ game but wasnt allowed to? Whereas the same 15+ elspa rated game would be fine...

That's the misconception about it. A lot of plebs who work in these game shops believe that, and a lot of store managers try to enforce it, as it is just good ethics. Basically, they don't want to be held responsible for some 13 year old's mother coming back and ranting to them about how they sold an 18 game to a 13 year old.

I can safely assure you that the only one that is enforcable is the BBFC one.


If you check out the PEGI website (Here (http://www.pegi.info/index.html)) there is no mention of it being enforcable - That's because it isn't!

I know a kid who was under 15 and was refused a sims expansion pack because it had an ELSPA 15+ rating on it. I then told him i'd buy it for him because I felt sorry for him, as technically he shouldn't have been refused it.

But, shit goes even deeper here.

I once wanted to buy soldier of fortune 2 for pc which is an 18, i asked the guy at the desk fo rit and he said its an 18 bbfc cant buy it yadda, i said my grandad would and the nhe told me he isnt allowed to sell it to anyone who has the intent to supply it to a minor :hmm: :/ :angry:

[Gemini-Phoenix]

The ELSPA website (Here (http://www.elspa.co.uk/)) also doesn't mention anything about the law.

The only one that does, is the BBFC site (Here (http://www.bbfc.co.uk/))


But I kind of agree with *Enigma* in the sense that minor's should not really be encouraged to buy such games. However, when you have things like this floating around, is it any wonder that there are ways around it?


Remember the fuss about Manhunt a few months ago? Now had the actual game in question been just like my Vice City above (With an ELSPA rating) then there would not have been so much of a big fuss over him having an over 18 game, as technically no law would have been broken in respect to him actually owning the game in question...

[The_EniGma]

The ELSPA website (Here (http://www.elspa.co.uk/)) also doesn't mention anything about the law.

The only one that does, is the BBFC site (Here (http://www.bbfc.co.uk/))


But I kind of agree with *Enigma* in the sense that minor's should not really be encouraged to buy such games. However, when you have things like this floating around, is it any wonder that there are ways around it?


Remember the fuss about Manhunt a few months ago? Now had the actual game in question been just like my Vice City above (With an ELSPA rating) then there would not have been so much of a big fuss over him having an over 18 game, as technically no law would have been broken in respect to him actually owning the game in question...

True, but in the end did he buy it? It was his own parents fault and they should have taken responsibility but this shit about not selling my grandad soldier of fortune is BS. I remember once trying to buy SH2 i had to give the money to my grandma who bought it for me since it was a 15 in a circle. But at the end of the day which law is being broke if he is selling it to a person who its 18 and over, none!

As matter of fact the same store on the upper floor sold my dad san andreas for me and he was even making jokes about "how much he would enjoy the game" but are game shops being over weary now?

[hydr0x]

ehm i'm not sure but i think you guy are missing a point here:


IT'S AN IMPORT

i don't know exactly how the UK handles imports but there are two possibilites

1) all imports are automatically 18+

2) imports that also got a domestic release may be sold according to the domestic releases BBFC rating, unrated ones (= no domestic release) are 18+

whatever applies here, this games may not be sold by any store to teenagers <18, no matter if there's a red circle on it or not....

[Ed Oscuro]

1) all imports are automatically 18+
What? I thought only in Germany! *ducks LOL *

[Gemini-Phoenix]

I can say that yes, the version I have is definitely from outside of the UK - But is in English. It was probably a French release, thus why it doesn't have the 18 BBFC on it.

And yes, the BBFC is for the UK only - BBFC stands for "British Board of Film Classification" - But also stretches out to video games as well where required to do so - Ie, in particular violent games, or games with gratuitous sex or drug references in Etc...


I know Germany aso have their own version of the BBFC which is yellow / orange / red diamonds - Is this correct?


I have no idea what you mean by all imports being 18 though... :/ Could you explain in a bit more detail?

[robotriot]

Yea, the German rating is called USK.

In Germany, every title that has no USK rating because it wasn't released in the country automatically is treated as 18+, to be on the safe side. This does include children's games as well ^^ I think that's what hydr0x meant as a possibility.

[hydr0x]

I have no idea what you mean by all imports being 18 though... :/ Could you explain in a bit more detail?

what i mean is this, just because there's no BBFC sign on it doesn't mean it may be sold to everyone, every country's law has some regulation for imports, and that regulation is one of the two options i posted

1) if a game doesn't have a BBFC sign, it's automatically treated as BBFC 18+

2) if a game doesn't have a BBFC sign, but there was a UK version that got rated by the BBFC, it may be allowed to sell that game accordingly to the BBFC rating of the UK-Version

i just realized there's a 3rd option

3) it's not legal to sell imports at all

no way your country's laws allow to sell imports to everyone, there are age regulations for imports too

all three options basically mean this: that GTA Import may not be sold to people under 18, no matter if there's an BBFC sign on it or not....

[Gemini-Phoenix]

I think option number two may be the most likely - But...

Not every UK game get's a BBFC rating - Only those considered too violent, or which has content only suitable for over 12's / 15's / 18's

Games like Doom and Resident Evil have always had BBFC ratings for instance.


European "Imports" are not treated as imports. They are generalally cllassed as equal to our own. One example would be the tons of South European GameCube games which seem to flood our game stores (Ones which have pink triangles on the spine, instead of the UK designation which is green)

Same went for DreamCast games back in the day - Many other European versions were allowed to leak into our market, such as an alternate version of GTA II and also Soldier Of Fortune - The former had a different cover design altogether, whereas the latter is well known to have two different versions (One with and one without a BBFC certificate)

I seem to find it quite skanky that our game shops would fleece us out of a UK version and palm us off with some European variant instead.


Anyway, there is some sort of law regarding imports from the US and Japan - I know that imports cannot be sold in the high street (That is - I think you might require some sort of special licence to sell imports in a store if you so wished to do so) - But I don't think this applies to other countries in the EU.


Every game has a content rating though, if it does not qualify for a BBFC classification. I do believe PEGI have taken ofver from ELSPA in this department, which provides a better and more detailed outlook on a particular game's content.

[anagrama]

The first 'B' in BBFC stands for British. You imported the game from elsewhere and thus there's no UK classification on it. Where's the mystery?

[Mayhem]

By the wording in his first post, it sounds like he bought it from a seller in the UK...


"It is a European version, which has somehow managed to work it's way to UK shores"

The quandry is, by not having the red 18 on it and assuming it's being sold in this country, is it still bound by the age laws of the video classification or not?

[Gemini-Phoenix]

It was bought off of eBay from a seller who originates from the UK.

He told me that he bought it originally from Dixon's here in the UK.


To any normal person buying this game in a shop, they may not even know that it was a European version, or that a different English version actually existed with a BBFC certificate on it.

[Mayhem]

Sounds like Dixons might be sourcing from outside the UK possibly then.

[sharp]

Sounds like Dixons might be sourcing from outside the UK possibly then.

More stores do that. I know Media Markt (in Germany and the Netherlands) by mistake even sold japanese versions of Warioware for the Nintendo DS, also all the big toy stores in the Netherlands are filled with imports from all over Europe and the US for handhelds.

Anout influence of the law on thse kinds of things, I really don't know. I already hate to get games with 3 or 4 different ratings and I don't see any use in the current system with everbody doing there own thing. Please let BBFC and USK go up in the PEGI and everything is much clearer, the national authority can make the PEGI.

[Gemini-Phoenix]

Same happens all th etime with other products.

I know my nearest Toys R Us regularly sells Dutch and American packaged Lego sets, instead of the UK versions (Yes, there is a difference - In packaging design that is) - Which technically they shouldn't be doing, but they seem to get away with doing so.


I think it is very underhand as they are no doubt getting these goods far cheaper than they would be if they had been buying legit UK ones, yet they are still selling at full RRP, thus making more profit.


If they are also doing this with games too...


It would be the same as a car dealership importing left hand drive cars and passing them off as UK ones (Admittedly, this is not quite the same as most people would notice this, but the point of the analogy is still the same)