Carts > CD > Carts ?

[Cmtz]

I predict that in a couple of years all games will go back to cart form. Cd's hold about 800mb of info DVDs hold about 4gb of info Blue Disks hold about 7.5 GB of info, but the new pen drives can hold up to 15gb of info. I think that as soon as this technology becomes cheap companies will start using it again. What do you guys think?

[rpepper9]

I think it is an interesting idea, but it will probably be a very long time before the technology comes down in price. By then we will probably all have an even faster internet in which we will probably just stream the games into our counsoles. That might even conqure the game piracy problem that has stuck it to pretty much every leval of gaming.

[Lemmy Kilmister]

Sure would be nice. I mean, I don't really have a problem collecting for disk based systems or anything, but so many people bang up their disks and don't take care of them. I'd rather just collect carts that are harder to break or mess up then a bunch of scratched to hell Cds/DVDs.

[Mattiekrome]

Man i miss cartridge based systems. They were so easy to use. Didnt have to worry about scratching discs or waiting on load screens all the time, plus battery game saves rocked! I would LOVE to see a cartridge base system emerge in the future (for a home console). (bah, maybe I just cant let go of the past :( )

[TeddyRuxpin]

How refreshing. A thread where people are actually expressing their love for carts instead of complaining about Nintendo using them for N64. :)

[Vectorman0]

Interesting idea. I think your prediction about it happening is probably true, but I doubt it will happen anytime soon. Discs are too slow with many things, but they are cheap and that's why they are being used and pursued by all current console makers. If the day comes when something has such superior read times (maybe even write times, not knowing what the future of gaming will bring), that it outweighs the cost difference, there will probably be a change.

I think the biggest thing that will end up facilitating a media switch is going to be piracy. Game companies are going to need proprietary formats that are just too obscure to easily "crack." Gamecube was amazingly safe, compared to PS2 and Xbox. In part due to its lack of popularity, and because of the tricky format that made everything difficult until recently. UMD's can't be copied at the moment, or burned, but soon they will be running games off of memory sticks and portable hard drives. Of course, these are a positives to more people than negatives, but game companies feel quite differently.

[stuffedmonkey]

I predict that in a couple of years all games will go back to cart form. Cd's hold about 800mb of info DVDs hold about 4gb of info Blue Disks hold about 7.5 GB of info, but the new pen drives can hold up to 15gb of info.

I would love to see it, but it won't happen. Blue ray disks are going to be able to hold 30+ gigs, a DVD can already hold 9. The price of flash DRAM will always be a good deal higher then a blank optical disk.

[squirrelnut]

. UMD's can't be copied at the moment, or burned, but soon they will be running games off of memory sticks and portable hard drives. Of course, these are a positives to more people than negatives, but game companies feel quite differently.

Yeah they already cracked the firmware so you can play homebrews... almost there....

[nate1749]

Hmmm, I see an innovation like dual disc lasers or something like that before going back to carts. The only reason I choose discs over carts is the space issue - I love keeping 100 discs in a little binder case. 100 n64 cases... get a trash bag to carry those things in. Which by the way, if you'd like to get a hard plastic case for your n64 game you should check out the n64 case project thread.

Nate

[Raedon]

I don't officially collect for disc systems so I'd have no problem with this.

[tylerwillis]

From a personal standpoint, I'd like to see it.

But I doubt that it will happen unless there's a major shift in technology or discs start to cost more. I'm not sure the piracy issue would be a sticking point in weighing cost of cart based system versus loss of sales due to piracy.

[sisko]

I doubt it.

One of the critical reasons that discs are here today is because they are MUCH cheaper to produce.

[TeddyRuxpin]

Which by the way, if you'd like to get a hard plastic case for your n64 game you should check out the n64 case project thread.

They already exist. Even includes a place for an official (or small 3rd party) memory card.

http://www.illiop.com/pics/game/n64_acc_greenbox.jpg

Although maybe they're rare. I dunno. I just know I got the 3 I have dirt cheap. ^^;

[Damion]

Carts do indeed rock.

the only problem with the N64 was the timing really. To expensive of a format for the time. I remeber reading an interveiw (in EGM I think) of three bigwigs talking about N64 and Playstation. one made the comment that a game the size Of Final fantasy 7 would have a production cost of around 1200 USD for the N64 instead of the 12 bucks in production costs that the CD version had.

personally I feel someday, We may very well roll back to carts. I mean can anyone really justifie using...what was it? 50 gigs on blu-ray discs for a game. Most games now at most are barely 4 gigs.

course in ten years I'm going to look back on this post in laugh at myself.

but really are we going to be using that much in the next gen console war? I don't think so.

[THATinkjar]

the only problem with the N64 was the timing really.

I somewhat disagree.

If Nintendo wanted a final foray into cartridge-based games, which they did, THEN was the time to do it. Sometimes I forget just how successful the N64 was at the time. The bottom line is, in my opinion: Nintendo didn’t do too badly with their timing – and it could have been a LOT worse.

[chrisbid]

the problem with the N64 wasnt that it used carts, but that they didnt print the name of the game on top of the cart. a stack of plain N64 carts cannot be identified :/

and we will see the end of media based video games in favor of downloaded content in the not so distant future... essentially killing off collecting

[THATinkjar]

the problem with the N64 wasnt that it used carts, but that they didnt print the name of the game on top of the cart. a stack of plain N64 carts cannot be identified :/

We were used to that in Europe before the N64 :) Nintendo failed us in that respect many times.


and we will see the end of media based video games in favor of downloaded content in the not so distant future... essentially killing off collecting

I hope your wrong. I really do.

[jgenotte]

I predict that in a couple of years all games will go back to cart form. Cd's hold about 800mb of info DVDs hold about 4gb of info Blue Disks hold about 7.5 GB of info, but the new pen drives can hold up to 15gb of info. I think that as soon as this technology becomes cheap companies will start using it again. What do you guys think?

I agree. I have thought this for a while. Up untill the demos of the nex gen stuff, I had predicted that all the next gen stuff would be in cart form. guess I was wrong.

New prediction: The next, next gen will be in cart form!

-james

[nate1749]

Which by the way, if you'd like to get a hard plastic case for your n64 game you should check out the n64 case project thread.

They already exist. Even includes a place for an official (or small 3rd party) memory card.

http://www.illiop.com/pics/game/n64_acc_greenbox.jpg

Although maybe they're rare. I dunno. I just know I got the 3 I have dirt cheap. ^^;

I should have clairifed more. Our hard plastic cases look like this. The case project adds the original box art =)

Oh and the official nintendo boxes are rare, they often sell for more than the games that you're putting in them.

See this thread for more info: http://www.digitpress.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=62758

http://img103.echo.cx/img103/1981/covers28rq.jpg

[junglehunter]

I've pretty much given up on newer consoles with CD/DVD based games. I MIGHT still buy GameCube games though. I'm not at all in love with disc based games since half the time they just fill the shit with FMVs and such. I want to play a game, not sit through 4 hours of video... :roll:

:(

[Dark_Sol]

I hope your wrong. I really do.

i already see chatting like:

- "I downloaded 200 games for last week!"
- "BahH!! You're too slow. I managed to leech 300 new ones weeks ago already"

LOL

[Jagasian]

The best portable gaming system uses carts: the GBASP. The Gameboy Micro will also still use carts. Solid state (carts) is a better choice for portables. Shock resistant, lower power usage, smaller, etc. Personally, I could see gaming consoles going to hard drives and ditching removable media such as carts and DVDs. The Gameboy Micro 2 could be built like an ipod mini, with a small lightweight, low power harddrive built in. You would then buy games via an iGames store online or via kiosks in your local game shop.

That way making copies of games doesn't cost any money for the developers. It would also make more sense because juggling tons of carts and DVDs is obviously bad for a portable gaming system, but is also annoying for home console systems. If the console is already going to be internet active, why not have an iGames store?

This would definitely be a problem for collectors though.

[Ed Oscuro]

Interesting prediction, but no, ultimately it'll be like this:

Carts < CD < digital transmission to hard drive.

It's all about bringing down the costs of production. That's the main feature you'll see of the history of storage devices for the masses; it's a consumer product so they're always looking at ways to save...even though it means foisting ever less-reliable storage formats on us. :( After all, people refuse to pay certain prices for equipment, so we all lose out in the end for reliability.

Production values right now are the main cost associated with distribution of a game, I believe. Higher capacity does that...but that's another issue.

[nate1749]

Solid state (carts) is a better choice for portables. Shock resistant, lower power usage, smaller, etc.

If this were the case we'd still be walking around with walkmans (cassettes) and not discmans (cds).

I think it ultimately comes down to cost. If would be best to eliminate moving parts completely and just run everything off of memory chips - but in a PC a 40 gig hard drive is $30, 40gigs of RAM, ikes.

I'm surprised there are so many disc haters out there, I love cds =)

Nate

[Ed Oscuro]

If would be best to eliminate moving parts completely and just run everything off of memory chips - but in a PC a 40 gig hard drive is $30, 40gigs of RAM, ikes.
It would also be "best," I suppose, to stop using dynamic RAM for main memory in PCs, and just use static RAM...but the cost, power, and space requirements are much higher.

Like I said...unfortunately companies have a better idea what features we want than we do ;) Well, not me - I'd pay extra for super reliability - but they won't give it to us.

[rbudrick]

As much as the technology for memory chips gets cheaper and cheaper, discs will be even cheaper indefinitely.

Also, many of you forget that memory demands get higher and higher as games get more and more complex. So even if people went back to carts, they'd need bigger carts (memory-wise). You dont see GBA games using 2k and 4k roms.

In addition to this, memory chips follow a simple supply and demand rule, (and their prices change daily, much like a commodity). For example, let me use the example of RAM...have you seen how much older RAM for Pentium I or most Pentium II computers is now (PC100, PC133, etc)? It has been raisng in price since not too long after DRAM really started to become standard. It should be cheap since it is old technology, but since people still upgrade their old PCs and demand is still just high enough for them to keep making them (yet still really low in comparison to current RAM). Demand really drives supply, but these chips are made in smaller batches than before driving the price up, as making small batches of memory is more expensive than making a crapload.

So, when a 256mbit chip like in a GBA game hits rock bottom in price, it is still going to hit a floor that is higher than the cost of disc based systems to produce, and after it hits that, it is going to rise in price again (but hit a lower ceiling than its peak during its era).

Basically, disc based systems will still be in unless a revolutionarily cheap way to produce memory is introduced...or downloaded games take over, which I doubt because there's obviously a HUGE market for downloads AND tangible games, as seen by console gamers and PC/online gamers.

As seen by Nintendo's portables. Cartridges can still thrive, but only in cheaper, smaller (memory-wise) chips in comparison to discs. Aren't UMDs about 14 times bigger in memory than DS carts? And DVDs are around 38 times larger than a DS cart, and still WAY cheaper. That's a massive bridge for memory chips to cross. I really don't think it could ever happen.

-Rob

[Ed Oscuro]

It has been raisng in price since not too long after DRAM really started to become standard.
Uh, DRAM has always been standard for main memory in commodity PCs.

[TeddyRuxpin]

I should have clairifed more. Our hard plastic cases look like this. The case project adds the original box art =)

Yeah, now I see. ^^; It should be called the 'case art project'.

[Jagasian]

Solid state (carts) is a better choice for portables. Shock resistant, lower power usage, smaller, etc.

If this were the case we'd still be walking around with walkmans (cassettes) and not discmans (cds).

I think it ultimately comes down to cost. If would be best to eliminate moving parts completely and just run everything off of memory chips - but in a PC a 40 gig hard drive is $30, 40gigs of RAM, ikes.

I'm surprised there are so many disc haters out there, I love cds =)

Nate

Cassette tapes are NOT solid state by any means. They require a motor, just like CDs and DVDs, and therefore have all of the problems associated with non-solid state media. The reason why we use CDs and DVDs now is because of price. Solid state is currently too expensive in megabyte per dollar compared to DVDs. However, in every other way it is superior to DVDs: faster data transmission, lower power usage, ability to be read/write (with new FRAM technology), etc.

These benefits are why we will return to solid state in the distant future.

[Ed Oscuro]

Well, you're assuming that optical media will continue to use the disc format only, and that other types of storage (i.e. hard drives) won't also continue to improve. Something entirely new could show up, as well.

[nate1749]

double post - sorry!

[nate1749]

dbl post

[nate1749]

These benefits are why we will return to solid state in the distant future.

You really think? I think it's one of those things that people think will happen eventually because in the future everything will somehow be resolved.

The cassette thing had some humor behind it, it just met some of the requirements you'd had listed of less power, more stable.

I think like someone said above, something completely new that we never thought about would be more likly. I guess only time will tell =)

Nate

[Lord_Magus]

Don't forget that video game developers happen to be companies, and that means they will always focus on maximizing their profits in any possible way. I can't personally imagine a cheaper storage device than the thin layer of plastic a CD\DVD is, and for that reason I can't see carts replacing the optical medium any time soon.

I would love to see it happen, but I find it highly unlikely...

[nate1749]

I'm also surprised w/all the hard core gamers that they didn't chose discs because of the cases.

Carts almost always come in cheap cardboard boxes - personally I could care less about keeping these, but I know a lot of people on here want them and want them in perfect condition.

A near impossible feat to find boxes so old in mint condition, but cd cases can easily be replaced if cracked and linear notes are rarely damaged from my experience.

[Ed Oscuro]

Carts almost always come in cheap cardboard boxes - personally I could care less about keeping these, but I know a lot of people on here want them and want them in perfect condition.
That goes with keeping costs down. In any case there are plenty of systems that've had hard cases - earlier Genesis (and nearly all JP MD titles, with a few exceptions like Divine Sealing), Neo-Geo Pocket Color (for a small cartridge). GBA games come in cardboard because Nintendo likes their money.

The problem with discs is that they scratch damn easily. So do the cases.

[mills]

I love carts, they just look so much cooler than a cruddy compact disc. And more durable too!

[Yago]

The way the current share holders (Microsoft, Sony) are pushing thier current and up comming systems, I don't see them even considering a cart based system. They are promoting the next gen consoles more or less as a "media" system that plays games, music, movies and all that jazz. It really comes down to what the mass wants. If thier is a demand for a game system that can play movies, then you will never see carts again. Plus, when new systems come out they want to use the latest and greatest technology, not go back in time to old school carts. That is what "they" seem to think anyway. As far as being able to download games to an HD, somebody already tried that, it was called the Phantom, and look how far they got with that concept. Nope, I think they will stick with CD/DVD based consoles. And that is the bottom line 'cause Stone Cold Yago said so. LOL

[nate1749]

The problem with discs is that they scratch damn easily. So do the cases.

Just so you know there are some companies out there that can buff out all the scratches to make them look completely new.

Since I have a few thousand discs (audio, movies, games, blah) I was thinking about starting up a small side business to do just that.

Nate

[Poofta!]

wont happen. ever. youll see.


carts will ALWAYS be more expensive to produce than optical media. we're talking cents vs maybe 10 dollars. (i assume these carts will have a lot of memory, in the GBs, and other chips, in addition to the plastic etc)

which translates in games debuting at 40-50 (PSone) or at 60-70 (N64)

n64 successfully took a nail gun to the coffin.

[Uzi 9mm]

Which by the way, if you'd like to get a hard plastic case for your n64 game you should check out the n64 case project thread.

They already exist. Even includes a place for an official (or small 3rd party) memory card.

http://www.illiop.com/pics/game/n64_acc_greenbox.jpg

Although maybe they're rare. I dunno. I just know I got the 3 I have dirt cheap. ^^;

I should have clairifed more. Our hard plastic cases look like this. The case project adds the original box art =)

Oh and the official nintendo boxes are rare, they often sell for more than the games that you're putting in them.

See this thread for more info: http://www.digitpress.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=62758

http://img103.echo.cx/img103/1981/covers28rq.jpg

That is very cool, I hated how the N64 boxes were cardboard and easy to tear or lose.

Also, I too wish that game consoles used carts again. I honestly dislike using Discs, they are just a hassle to maintain, with not scratching them and all.

[Jorpho]

The only thing I can see happening is some sort of odd cart/disc hybrid, like the 64DD used. But as already mentioned, the cost of producing such things would likely outweigh by far the losses from piracy that they might otherwise prevent (but probably wouldn't).

[Teknik_SE-R]

ODD CART DISC HYBRID???

my friend, have you ever heard of such rom media as MINIDISCS?!?!?!

personally I don't see why minidiscs never caught on above cds (actually, I do. SONY YOU GREEDY BASTARDS!!!)

honestly though,

they wouldn't cost any more than a cd to make (casing would replace cd case)

you get the awesome cart label,

they are small,

they are damage resistant.

And, the shape of the case could play a (small) part in preventing piracy.

you don't get the better load times, but you do get all the other advantages of both worlds

WTF!!!! why didn't (isn't) the minidisc concept (no format) catch on!!!!!!
seriously though, its almost frustrating.

in fact, nintendo could have gone that way with the gamecube discs, everyone would have griped just as much
"wah! the gamecube plays 3" disks instead of full size DVD's! that means it can't play movies too! wah wah wah!!"

now replace '3" disks' with 'minidisk cartridges'

I don't think that nintendo will make a "multimedia" system. Remember when they released the GC they stated that their goal was to make an affordable system for playing games, not a crazy expensive "plays every fomat of media ever made" system. that my friend, is called a PC.

I personally applaud them. in support of that argument. I use my ps2 for dvd playback in my bedroom ONLY cuz i don't have enough $ to buy a second unit. it sucks as a dvd player and there is no need to have an all in one system. dedicate yourselves to games and leave dvd playback to progressive scan HDMI output (or whatever the fack it is), burner systems. don't double charge me for some third rate secondary functions for which I already have some thing that does it way better than your unit could ever hope to do! (this is a personal attaack on xbox/ps2)

go back to your roots with new technology you dumbass hardware developers.....rock the minidisc carts!!!!!

[XxMe2NiKxX]

Methinks the people promoting cartridges (financial arguments aside) are overnostelgic. Cartridges wear and become duds over time. CD's never will if you take care of them (I suppose you can make a simillar argument with cartridges, but it's significantly more costly to clean a cartridge regularilly then it does to not step on things).

The problems with buying games via data stream all come down to availability. Most importantly, those who don't own credit cards, while maybe financially independent, will not be able to buy games easily. Another thing peolpe don't seem to consider with this supposed future method is that the servers would have to be up practically indefinately; lets say you want a five year old game and there's no server to download it from. Then what? You must add in the costs of maintaining many servers and the ridiculous amount of bandwith required if the console maintains even some level of popularity, on top of the cost of putting a reasonably large hard drive in each console. I predict that physical, most likely optical, mediums will remain in place for a very, very long time.

[Ed Oscuro]

ODD CART DISC HYBRID???

my friend, have you ever heard of such rom media as MINIDISCS?!?!?!
My god it's like meeting an old friend again

a friend i left by the side of the road with an axe wound to the face

and plus they're a shambling zombie now

this is rather unholy

P.S. Sony's minidiscs weren't ROM only - the rewritable versions were a big draw. :P

[Jorpho]

they wouldn't cost any more than a cd to make (casing would replace cd case)

No. If it has any kind of precision moving parts (especially if they're made of metal instead of plastic), they could cost quite a bit more. Plus they would need some sort of box when on the store shelf, I imagine.

[kevin_psx]

Cd's hold about 800mb of info DVDs hold about 4gb of info Blue Disks hold about 7.5 GB of info, but the new pen drives can hold up to 15gb of info.

What the? Blu-rays hold 100 gigs - way more than a flash drive.

A flat piece of silver embedded in plastic (aka disk) will always be cheaper than individually assembled memory chips in a box (aka cartridge). The discs are simpler to build & therefore cheaper.

[lkermel]

Like someone mentionned it earlier, I think the future will be no support at all, it will be online and players will pay per play. The game itself won't be stored on the console anymore. I know this sounds sad and terrible, especially for Video Game collectors like us, but I'm sure big console manufacturers already have plans like this...
You know what could be even worse ? We do not need the hardware at home if you look at it. They could directly stream the sound and picture to your TV set and just read the information from your game controller.
Maybe all of this is crazy and a bit extreme, but technology is here and game and console manufacturers are dying to find a way to eliminate piracy and second hand market.

[Avatard]

Well, Nintendo still opts for carts on their handhelds over discs. Thank God. I can stick them in my pocket, I don' thave to worry about skipping, no scratches, I can sit on them in my back pocket, and no memory card is needed. However some people are still under the impression that if it isn't on an optical medium then the game sucks. :roll:

[Teknik_SE-R]

I just realized my idea is exactly the same as a UMD.

who woulda thought that sony would incorporate another minidisc type media? x_x

precision parts? does a UMD or a 3.5" floppy have precision parts?

minidiscs came in rom and w/r versions

too bad that they will never release writable versions of the UMD, and they will probably remain a bunch on tightwads about the format leading to its exclusive use on sony products, hence, It will never be a trully universal media disc i.e. it will never replace cds and cdplayers, cd-rs, dvds etc. kinda ironic name now that i think of it.

UMD-only universay in the sense that it can store video, games, etc...WOW just like any other storage media? maybe we should call cds universal media cds and dvds universal media dvds!

can we assume that they will use these on the ps3? or is dvd playback so necessary? I heard that console developers were moving away from DVD format anywayfor media with more storage capability

would the use of UMDs satisfy you nostalgic turds' (jk) request for carts coming back? maybe we could make them more cart shaped to satisfy you :D

[Jorpho]

precision parts? does a UMD or a 3.5" floppy have precision parts?

I don't know about UMDs, but yeah, a 3.5" floppy is surprisingly intricate. Good luck getting a shutter back on one of those if you ever accidently pull it off.