DP's Policy on Emulation and ROMs Discussion

[digitalpress]

Now in the FAQ.

http://www.digitpress.com/forum/faq.php#5

If this is unclear in any way or does not address a particular question you have or have had in the past, please let me know. The rules are meant to be very simple, with very clear lines drawn!

[buttasuperb]

Neo-Geo, Game Boy, and GBC aren't retired machines?

[digitalpress]

Neo-Geo, Game Boy, and GBC aren't retired machines?

My thinking is this:

Has the last game for Neo-Geo come out yet?

Can you not play Game Boy and GBC games on your GBA?

If I'm mistaken please let me know.

[D-Lite]

SSVS was the last Neo Geo game. All done boss. No more in AES or MVS format anymore :bawling:

[digitalpress]

SSVS was the last Neo Geo game. All done boss. No more in AES or MVS format anymore :bawling:

Consider the revision made! Thanks for the info.

[SoulBlazer]

Joe, I like the policy -- It's very clear cut and explains things very well. As I read it, though, I DID have a small question.

Yes, you can play GB and GBC games on the GBA/GBA SP/DS. However, the SYSTEM and the GAMES stopped production years ago.

By the same token, the PlayStation is also a 'retired' system but it's games are playable on the PS2.

So what about 'dead' systems where the games are playable on current systems thanks to 'back' support?

I honestly don't care either way, I'm just asking before someone else does. :)

[Jibbajaba]

Joe, I like the policy -- It's very clear cut and explains things very well. As I read it, though, I DID have a small question.

Yes, you can play GB and GBC games on the GBA/GBA SP/DS. However, the SYSTEM and the GAMES stopped production years ago.

By the same token, the PlayStation is also a 'retired' system but it's games are playable on the PS2.

So what about 'dead' systems where the games are playable on current systems thanks to 'back' support?

I honestly don't care either way, I'm just asking before someone else does. :)

Playstation games are on the no-no list. The same logic that applies to GB and GBC applies to PSX.

Chris

[Super Mario Fan]

Then shouldn't the NES, SNES, and N64 games be on the list, since they will be playable on the Revolution?

[rbudrick]

Can you not play Game Boy and GBC games on your GBA?

Well, you can't play em on the DS. Also, When the revolution comes out, should the NES et al go back on the list? Should Atari 2600 be there? People are still making games for it.

-Rob

[Gemini-Phoenix]

PlayStation games are still being made, and the console is still available in most chains to buy brand new.

As are GameBoy Color games and systems.

DreamCast also counts as games are still being made for it (Trizeal released a mere few months back)

Saturn games are still widely available brand new and sealed as well, and there are still plenty of them about.


Where do you stand on games such as Sonic which is available still to buy (As part of Sonic Mega Colection) or even old Atari games which are avilable in various collections for PS2 / Xbox / Cube / DS / Ngage...

[Jibbajaba]

You know, if you guys are going to keep splitting hairs like that, I'm thinking that Joe is going to take the easy way out and just ban ROM and emulation discussion completely.

Yes, the VCS as well as some other classic systems have HOMEBREW games made for them on occasion, but they are not officially supported by their manufacturers anymore. That's the key. They are considered DEAD systems. Nintendo still makes hardware that supports GB and GBC games. Sony still makes hardware that supports PSX games.

The Revolution will be a trickier topic. If the Revolution is going to support NES, SNES, and N64 games like they say, then I would think that discussion of emulation of those games would be improper.

Chris

EDIT: The Dreamcast is no longer supported by Sega, nor is the Saturn. The fact that new and sealed software is still available for the system is a moot point because it isn't available from the original publishers. New and sealed games are still available for any system, from other collectors and eBay. :roll:

[Sothy]

What about xbox i can download x box game right?

[Kuros]

Giving out ROMs I can understand is a no-no, but the discussion of emulation I'm not sure why it's being partly banned.

Maybe it's just me, but I see nothing wrong with the discussion of emulators.

[buttasuperb]

SSVS was the last Neo Geo game. All done boss. No more in AES or MVS format anymore :bawling:

D-Lite stop crying. Embarassing.

[Gemini-Phoenix]

I think we should just assume all Rom's and ISO's are off limits, just for the purpioses of the argument.

It doesn't mean we can't mention it "Contextually", but I think the whole point is to prevent people blatently asking "Where can I find *X* Rom"


Ie, I have previously made a reference to owning a few Rom's to games I have which are sealed. That is what I would call contextual, as I was trying to explain my reasoning for keeping certain games sealed...

Other people often make remarks about a certain X shaped console and it's "Capabilities"...

[The-Bavis]

Just to clear up confusion, I'd say that any game available new from a retailer is off-limits. This does not include sealed older games being sold second-hand to collectors. In general, games for defunct systems are OK, but there are exceptions since publishers periodically re-release these games for new consoles or stand-alone devices (e. g. Plug-n-Play TV games and GBA NES Classics series).

[Jibbajaba]

Just to clear up confusion, I'd say that any game available new from a retailer is off-limits. This does not include sealed older games being sold second-hand to collectors. In general, games for defunct systems are OK, but there are exceptions since publishers periodically re-release these games for new consoles or stand-alone devices (e. g. Plug-n-Play TV games and GBA NES Classics series).

Summed up quite nicely. I don't see what is so complicated about this.


Chris

[XxMe2NiKxX]

Can we discuss things like emulation FOR the PSP, DC, etc., as opposed to the actual emulation OF the PSP, DC, etc.?

[sharp]

SSVS was the last Neo Geo game. All done boss. No more in AES or MVS format anymore :bawling:

Consider the revision made! Thanks for the info.

I think it needs to be changed back. The Neo Geo games are still being sold in both MVS and AES. It's a bit the same as PS1 which also don't get games anymore (maybe a few exceptions). The argument that PSone games can be run on PS2 does not count then. As Neo Geo roms can damage the sales of the conversions which still have to come out.

Anyway I am not a fan of emulation. Just get the real thing.

[digitalpress]

Can we discuss things like emulation FOR the PSP, DC, etc., as opposed to the actual emulation OF the PSP, DC, etc.?

Yes, that's why I worded the FAQ the way I did.

As for these other technicalities, at some point I'm just going to say "because it's my house". I have strong ties to a number of industry members and don't plan on cutting them. There are enough of them already agitated that I'd encourage any sort of emulation whatsoever, so I'm treading a very fine line.

Homebrew development does not "revive" a system in this case. It is the original hardware manufacturer that I'm tiptoeing around. If PS1 games help sell PS2 and GBC games help sell GBA's, I'm not going there.

When Nintendo's Revolution is released (or I receive another Cease and Desist letter) there will be more games closed to discussion.

[TheRedEye]

I have a question! We can't request ROMs, but can we post them if it's relevant to the topic?

[Postermen]

I have a question! We can't request ROMs, but can we post them if it's relevant to the topic?

Grate question Frank! I was wondering the same thing too. And also thinking of discussing NES Thomas the Tank Engine .

[digitalpress]

I have a question! We can't request ROMs, but can we post them if it's relevant to the topic?

Sure, provided it's not on our "off limits" systems list.

It's only a matter of time before free transmission of ROMs of any kind are off-limits. I've received a number of Cease & Desist letters and I expect with the continuing interest in classic gaming there will be many more on the way.

[D-Lite]

SSVS was the last Neo Geo game. All done boss. No more in AES or MVS format anymore :bawling:

D-Lite stop crying. Embarassing.
Don't sass me
http://tehfatguy.com/secretlevel/images/smiles/bonk.gif

On topic, I don't so mind much the talk about emulators themselves, as long as you folks control the discussion of WHERE to get the ROM images. And when I say control I mean people should not be talking about where and whatnot.

And honestly there really isn't much to talk about concerning emulation except compatibility with games and now the PSP.

[LocalH]

If Joe bans mere talk about 100% legal emulation, then I'm leaving this site forever. I only visit N's official forums to debunk the "emulation is illegal" mantra (although I'm quite adamant that commercial ROMs are illegal 99.9% of the time). I only choose to do that because N's forums have proportionally more "kiddies" than a forum like this, where you would expect people to be more intelligent about the issue. I can support 100% the banning of ROM talk (in terms of "where can I get [x] ROM"), but I will not support any slighting of legal emulation, even if it's being pushed on you by a third party. And also, it goes without saying, I would imagine that homebrew ROM discussion would still be allowed, since there's no copyright infringement.

It doesn't matter what the system - ALL emulators are legal as long as they don't bundle copyrighted code along with it (whether it be game ROMs or BIOS ROMs).

As I said, I can support the disallowing of ROM talk. But I will give up on DP if we can't even talk about legal emulators.

Do what you want, this is just my opinion. And I know you could probably care less about a single person choosing to leave, and that's entirely your choice. But when I feel something is being done wrong, I'm going to speak up.

[Poofta!]

who sent cease and desist letter and for what?

i know you probably cant say 'who'... but what were they asking you to stop?

i dont remember DP ever letting people request and post ROMs, and in recent memory i dont recall you hosting any either.

[Sylentwulf]

If Joe bans mere talk about 100% legal emulation, then I'm leaving this site forever.

Joe isn't going to let the entire website be shut down to keep one person here talking about illegal subject matter if a big company issues a C&D.

Atari games ARE being sold in the store right now, along with intellivision, and genesis games. And with the revolution coming out, like someone above said, I can imagine nintendo cracking down harder on classic roms as well, since they'll be being sold again as well.

Get over it. You can talk about emulation all you want, but don't ask how to do it, where to get the roms, etc...

I can't imagine anyone having a problem with a post along the lines of "Nesticle keeps pressing the wrong button on DW1 for me, anyone want to look at my ini files?"
But if that same post says "Your rom is broken, you need to download a more current one, here's a link" that's a no-no.

Basically, if you have to wonder "can I post this?" The answer is no. Move along.

[digitalpress]

My issue with discussion of "legal emulators" is that it's tantamount to stealing, even if you're just trying to get discussion going on homebrew programming. Let's be honest here. 99% of discussion about emulating Game Boy Advance games is ultimately discussion about playing Game Boy Advance ROMS that you don't own.

If I could count on people to manage this properly I'd be fully behind it, but this is a public community, and let's face it, we've seen our share of lunkheads. I'm not going to let a lunkhead cause the demise of an entire website community (though some might argue that I've done that already) :monkey:.

@Poofta! The C&D's were to specifically address the removal of certain ROMs from our website. Our emulation area is what draws the ire of industry members.

[XxMe2NiKxX]

If Joe bans mere talk about 100% legal emulation, then I'm leaving this site forever. I only visit N's official forums to debunk the "emulation is illegal" mantra (although I'm quite adamant that commercial ROMs are illegal 99.9% of the time). I only choose to do that because N's forums have proportionally more "kiddies" than a forum like this, where you would expect people to be more intelligent about the issue. I can support 100% the banning of ROM talk (in terms of "where can I get [x] ROM"), but I will not support any slighting of legal emulation, even if it's being pushed on you by a third party. And also, it goes without saying, I would imagine that homebrew ROM discussion would still be allowed, since there's no copyright infringement.

It doesn't matter what the system - ALL emulators are legal as long as they don't bundle copyrighted code along with it (whether it be game ROMs or BIOS ROMs).

As I said, I can support the disallowing of ROM talk. But I will give up on DP if we can't even talk about legal emulators.

Do what you want, this is just my opinion. And I know you could probably care less about a single person choosing to leave, and that's entirely your choice. But when I feel something is being done wrong, I'm going to speak up.Amen.

[§ Gideon §]

Joe, I'm glad you get the final word on this. It's clear you want what's best for the industry and gamers.

[LocalH]

My issue with discussion of "legal emulators" is that it's tantamount to stealing, even if you're just trying to get discussion going on homebrew programming. Let's be honest here. 99% of discussion about emulating Game Boy Advance games is ultimately discussion about playing Game Boy Advance ROMS that you don't own.

So, then you go after people who talk about emulation with regards to illegally acquired ROMs. It's perfectly legal to dumpa GBA cart that I own and run it on an emulator, and I should be able to discuss this if I want. I understand you have to tread carefully, but if you notice, even though N claims that unauthorized emulation is illegal, there have been very few emulators that N went after in a legal sense (there are only two I can think of - UltraHLE [N64] and Liberty [GB]). My understanding is that they only hold a patent on GBA emulation if the emulator specifically enables/disables certain optimizations automatically based on the ROM being emulated, so that a straight system emulator is legal, if it treats all ROMs the same.

I understand you have a relationship with key players in the industry, but I don't think you should do anything more than is actually required by law - which means quashing illegal ROM distribution and nothing more, by my understanding. By all means, you can still do what you want, but which way you ultimately go will determine whether or not I patronize your forums. Of course, I don't expect you to change this based on my single post - but if a relatively large percentage of the forumgoers echo my sentiments, then maybe it might make a difference.

Please understand, I'm not trying to be confrontational here. I'm merely speaking up against what I see as an injustice (although not that important of an injustice in the long run). Believe me, I go about once a week to N's forums and reply to EVERY unlocked topic about emulators being illegal. This is merely the same thing - I see something I disagree with, so I make my point as to why.

I also don't want you to do anything that would cause you to be in legal trouble, hence why I have repeatedly stated that it's perfectly OK to ban illegal ROM talk (which means "where can I get [x] ROM", not "where can I get a device to dump my own carts for private backup"). But it is one of my missions to make sure that as many people as possible know emulation is legal.

[D-Lite]

For clarification, and this is fact, the only ROMs that are legal for you to own are ones you make YOURSELF from YOUR OWN CART. This is according to the ISDA itself. Directly from the ISDA (http://www.idsa.com/piracy.html):

Isn't it legal to copy video & computer games as a backup as long as you own a legitimate copy?

U.S. Copyright laws permit making a "backup" copy of computer programs for archival purposes. However, the right to make backup copies of computer programs for archival purposes, as embodied in 17 U.S.C. Section 117(2), does not in any way authorize the owner of a copy of a video or computer game to post or download a copy of that game to or from the Internet. Section 117(2) only gives the owner of the copy a right to make an archival copy of the actual copy that he/she legally possesses, not to make a copy of the ROM that someone else legally possesses, nor to post an archival copy of his/her original copy for distribution. Also, there is not an unfettered right to sell "backup" copies. In fact, Section 117 is quite explicit in stating that any archival copy prepared under Section 117(2) can only be transferred to another person if, and only if: A) The original copy is also transferred, and only with the authorization of the copyright owner, and B) The transfer is part of the sale of all rights in the program.

Isn't it OK to copy games that are no longer distributed in the stores or commercially exploited?

No, the current availability of a game in stores is irrelevant to its copyright status. Unlike trademarks, copyrights are not considered abandoned if they are no longer enforced. Copyrights do not enter the public domain just because they are no longer commercially exploited or widely available. Therefore, the copyrights of games are valid even if the games are not found on store shelves, and copying or distributing those games is a copyright infringement. [/u]

[Poofta!]

i DO NOT SEE why this has to be an issue HERE. there are PLENTY of forums soley for this purpose. there is newsgroups, google.com and if you really want, AIM. if you guys are so hellbent on talking about roms and downloading them, LOOK ELSEwhere.

i support DP on all his desicions on this. even if he bans everything completely. this is a classic gaming forum for gaming on hardware and collecting.

[calthaer]

My issue with discussion of "legal emulators" is that it's tantamount to stealing, even if you're just trying to get discussion going on homebrew programming.

So Messiah's Generation NEX, which is advertised here, is also stealing? It may be a "hardware" as opposed to a "software" emulator, but it's still emulating the original hardware.

[Gamereviewgod]

By all means, you can still do what you want, but which way you ultimately go will determine whether or not I patronize your forums

There is so much here to discuss, and so much here to take in. If you feel that this one topic which is causing a conflict with important people in the industry is enough to drive you away, I feel for you.

[LocalH]

It's a matter of telling the truth with regards to the law. Those who treat emulation as if it were illegal, in and of itself, are lying. Of course, there are different degrees of this, and I'm not insinuating that what Joe is doing here is equivalent to N saying "emulation is illegal unless we authorize it", because they're outright lying, while Joe is just, in my opinion, going a bit overboard on the topic. As far as I'm concerned, the onus is on the user to either acquire their ROMs legally, or choose to violate the law in whatever way. As long as a user doesn't say "hey, I just downloaded [x] ROM and I'm having problems", then emulation posts should be in the clear. From a practical viewpoint, if the ROM you download is the same revision as the cart you have, there's no way to tell whether or not it was actually dumped from your cart. But from a legal standpoint, as long as noone is saying that they illegally acquired the ROM, you should be in the clear. If that person is breaking the law but not announcing it to the world, it shouldn't be your responsibility to police general emulation posts.

Sorry, but emulation legality is an issue that I feel very strongly about. If that makes you think that there's something wrong with me (as indicated by your "I feel for you" comment), then there's nothing I could say that would be tactful in this situation.

[play2win]

Its always amazing to me to see these attempted legal analyses by companies like Nintendo. They never cease to ignore the elephant in the room. I'm a begining lawyer so I'll try not to get into too much legalese, but basically the fair use argument that is mounted by individuals who use emulators depends on four factors: 1. the nature of the material infringed, 2. the amount and substantiality of the portion of the material infringed, 3. what is the purpose of the use, and 4. what is the effect on the market. That's it. that's the test any reasonable judge in an infringement case would use to determine damages for a company like nintendo. Now, you can spend weeks arguing over how that applies to emulation (nature= commercial software & amount & substantiality= 100% identical code reproduction VS. purpose= to preserve aging games & market effect= inadverse) but to me it is a moot point. Companies like Nintendo have to answer to shareholders, and they only care about one thing: profit. That's it. they don't have to demonstrate to a judge how NES emulators are a threat to their financial interests, but they sure as hell had better find out how to explain that to their board, which, I'm speculating, consists of explaining how the same dumping process will soon be used to rip DS games as it was for GB and GBA. That's a tough sell considering how much it would cost them to prosecute cases like these. Bearing in mind profit, however, I don't think their ultra-liberal interpretation of the Federal Copyright Act as applied to emulation is valid or reasonable.

[D-Lite]

You see, whereas much of what you say may be right, the fact that Joe CAN'T police every thread about this means that the best course of action may be to blanket ban at least some discussion of emulation. Hell, at neo-geo.com we don't allow nearly any discussion about even emulating the Neo. It comes up a bit more frequently now, but even as little as a year ago the subject was largely taboo.

[anagrama]

If you're not willing to live with the rules as posted then I doubt your absence will be sorely missed.

[Gemini-Phoenix]

I have a question! We can't request ROMs, but can we post them if it's relevant to the topic?

Sure, provided it's not on our "off limits" systems list.

It's only a matter of time before free transmission of ROMs of any kind are off-limits. I've received a number of Cease & Desist letters and I expect with the continuing interest in classic gaming there will be many more on the way.

Just out of curiosity (this is more of a rhetorical question) - Does that also allpy for things such as Flintstone's Viva Rock Vegas, and Propeller arena Etc???

Had to ask, as I bet everyone else is wondering...

[Griking]

Thanks for clearifying. There were too many conflicting opinions and ignorant flames being thrown around regarding the whole emulation issue. The new policy seems to be right in line with what I always thought it was anyways in that its ok to talk about emulation of dead consoles but not for consoles still being supported by their developers.

The only question I still have is where does Mame and arcade emulation fir into the policy?

[Wavelflack]

My issue with discussion of "legal emulators" is that it's tantamount to stealing, even if you're just trying to get discussion going on homebrew programming.

So Messiah's Generation NEX, which is advertised here, is also stealing? It may be a "hardware" as opposed to a "software" emulator, but it's still emulating the original hardware.

This doesn't really make any sense. GNEX is a piece of standalone hardware, which requires legitimate cartridges in order to work. It does not have a ROM port on it. Does the hardware itself infringe on Nintendo's patents? I don't know. But it's certainly not a vehicle for piracy, that's for sure. Or at least not FTP style piracy. I suppose it'll play "hard" pirated games from Hong Kong or wherever.

I think Joe's point here is that emulators and piracy go hand in hand. They don't have to, but the reality is that they do. If you disagree with this, then please point out a single person you are aware of who
A: Uses emulators
B: has roms to run on them
C: owns the corresponding games to all roms

Perhaps such a person exists. I think the most "saintly" emu users (ie; least illegal roms) would be programmers, who are likely more interested in development than collecting/playing.

I'm certainly not above the crowd here. I own LOTS of games, but I also have a Nester DC disc with zillions of NES roms. I have Prop Arena and Half Life DC.

Anyway, I think everyone understands the point(s) being made, but certain folks want to nitpick details.

[Mangar]

heh - I'm a completely unashamed, unrepetant, and admitted software pirate - And even I see no problem with the emulation policy :) He's not banning talk about reverse engineering consoles(Like the PSP) or on using/setting up Mame, or most consoles/computers in existance. Just games which are still being sold at retail. IE: Stuff that companies are currently producing anf turning a profit on. Seems rather fair and common sense to me.


Joe isn't going to let the entire website be shut down to keep one person here talking about illegal subject matter if a big company issues a C&D.

There is never a danger of that, just so long as "talk" is as far as it goes. Big companys can send out as many C&D letters as they like. It don't mean they have any basis in U.S Law. Roms themselves however are a completely different animal.....

[poe]

Thought it was worth noting that despite a zero tolerance policy on ROM requests, there is presently a stickied thread with not less than a dozen MAME ROMs directly linked. Not sure if they're considered dead, but it seems like a questionable precedent...

[SoulBlazer]

Thanks for claryfiying the issues, Joe. I agree that emulation and ROM's are two totally different beasts, and saying that talking about emulating dead systems is fine but not where to get the ROM's for it.

Personaly, I don't see any harm in talking about emulation for the PlayStation and GameBoy since those systems are no longer made, but I understand you have to walk a very fine line here. None of us want to see this site shut down.

Everyone else -- if you want to go to a site that has struggled for YEARS to offer 'old and out of print' games to the public and stay in operation, just go to Home of the Underdogs. I used to be a mod there and still help out in the background. Yes, they are PC games and not console games, but its inspiring for the future.

[Ed Oscuro]

Can we discuss things like emulation FOR the PSP, DC, etc., as opposed to the actual emulation OF the PSP, DC, etc.?

Yes, that's why I worded the FAQ the way I did.
Very well done if I may say so (just read it).

I'm not going to give any "but what if" scenarios, we've just got to accept this; and hope for the best. Really.

[LocalH]

I think a few of you (but definitely not all) might have glossed over one very important thing I said - I agree 100% with a policy of no illegal ROM talk. I just don't want legal emulation lumped in with illegal ROMs by default, that's all. If someone is pirating ROMs, then they don't need to discuss it here, and I have no qualms about that.

It's the same thing that pisses me off when I do go to N's forums - they've got them so "brainwashed", for lack of a better term, that they tell people to delete their emulators as well as their illegal ROMs, and that if you post a desktop picture and there happens to be an icon for FCE Ultra or ZSNES, then undoubtedly someone will jump down your shit. I just don't want to see the beginnings of similar things happening here, that's all (and I fully realize that it would be handled more intelligently here, but still). I'm probably overreacting a bit, but as I said, it's one of my missions to ensure that I can inform as many people as possible that there is NOTHING illegal about emulation itself. So naturally, when I hear talk going the other way, no matter to what degree, I will react.

Besides, I hope all these companies that are latching on to the new 'retro' trend realize that if it weren't for unauthorized emulation, there would be little to no 'retro' trend for them to cash in on, to begin with.

[digitalpress]

My issue with discussion of "legal emulators" is that it's tantamount to stealing, even if you're just trying to get discussion going on homebrew programming.

So Messiah's Generation NEX, which is advertised here, is also stealing? It may be a "hardware" as opposed to a "software" emulator, but it's still emulating the original hardware.

Completely different. The patent expired on the NES hardware. It's completely legal and as discussed in the NEX thread, already okayed by Nintendo.

[Nature Boy]

But it is one of my missions to make sure that as many people as possible know emulation is legal.

Why? What's the point?

Even if emulation itself is legal (and I don't care either way if it is or isn't), it's common knowledge that 99% of people who use the legal emulators do so with illegally gained roms. What good does winning a "emulators are legal" battle do if you have nothing to use on it?

(Did you legally dump all your roms? *ALL* of 'em? I'll tell you I've legally dumped zero of mine, since I don't have the means (unlike my music collection say, where ripping it all to mp3s is dead simple))

[Gemini-Phoenix]

I am 100% aware that emulation is illegal. I would also like to say that any Rom's I do own are ONLY of games which I actually own (Albeit sealed games that I see no point in opening as I have the Rom's)

I'm ironically 100% against piracy though. So there's a very fine line you have to draw regarding certain emulation.

I have Rom's simply because I don't wish to open and devalue certain games. Some of which I have downloaded, other's I have made from a friend's copy of the same game.

[kainemaxwell]

Pretty cut and dry. Nicely put.

[Kaine24]

Decently sliced and wet. Well put.