San Andreas : AO!

[TheSmirk]

They went and changed it:

http://www.shacknews.com/docs/press/072005_gta_sa.x

Now, personally I feel that it is immensely stupid of rockstar to have left that in there, especially in this day and age.

But doesn't this then have to change the way ESRB rates the games? Are they going to have to hire their own hackers scan thru the data bit by bit looking for any buried "offensive" material? Otherwise their rating could not be trusted anymore.

[Griking]

Yep, it's official. HERE'S (http://apnews.excite.com/article/20050720/D8BFBTN82.html) another link to confirm it.

And now that this is official it'll change absolutely nothing as adults, the audience that the game was supposingly always marketed to will still be able to purchase the game.

[TheSmirk]

It's all C.Y.A. especially that this has become so high profile

[Lemmy Kilmister]

Doesn't really matter seeing as the game has already sold millions of copies, however Rockstar has basically shot themselves in the foot for future releases of theirs.

[shvnsth]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20050720/ap_on_hi_te/video_game_sex

thats it off yahoo new. yeah i was really surprised, and a few stores will stop selling it. but that game sold so well already, and it really only affects the xbox game that they recently shipped, which will still sell prob 75% of what it would have sold as an m game.

[davepesc]

Well Holy Shit....








I just can't believe it @_@

Although, I don't own the game, but I would like a copy with the AO sticker on it.
They've created a rarity!

[Griking]

Here's (http://www.gamepolitics.com/) another article about the change with a lot more details.

I also believe that they NEVER would have agreed to this change unless they knew deep down that Rockstar was 100% wrong.

[pragmatic insanester]

i saw some 10 year old girl raving about how much she liked GTA: SA the other day. i was scanning through the snes archives and she was shopping with her mother and two brothers.

question: will the m-rated version ever be considered rare since about 898935893896 copies have been sold?

[davepesc]

For the lazy, from the associated press:

Rating board changes ``GTA: San Andreas'' to adults only
By RON HARRIS
Associated Press Writer
SAN FRANCISCO (AP) — The video game industry on Wednesday changed to adults-only the rating of ``Grand Theft Auto: San Andreas,'' a best-selling title in which explicit sexual content can be unlocked with an Internet download.
The decision followed intense pressure from politicians and media watch groups.
The game's producer, Rockstar Games, said it stopped making the current version of the game and is now working on a new version. It said it would provide new labels to any retailer willing to continue selling the version currently on store shelves, which had been rated ``M'' for mature.
Rockstar's parent company, Take Two Interactive, also admitted for the first time that the sex scenes had been built into the retail version of that game — not just the PC version but also those written for Xbox and PlayStation2 consoles.
Company officials had previously suggested that a modification created by outsiders added the scenes.
``There is sex content in the disc,'' said Take-Two spokesman Jim Ankner. ``The editing and finalization of any game is a complicated task and it's not uncommon for unused and unfinished content to remain on the disc.''
The sex scenes had prompted outrage from parent's groups and politicians, who are demanding federal oversight of video game ratings.
In a statement, the president of the Entertainment Software Rating Board said the sex scenes were programmed by Rockstar ``to be inaccessible to the player.''
But ESRB chief Patricia Vance also acknowledged that the ``credibility and utility'' of the industry-run board's initial ``M'' rating had been ``seriously undermined.''

[Neil Koch]

In a way I think this is a good thing, maybe it will help to make the AO rating a more viable alternative...

[rbudrick]

I wonder if the stickers Rockstar will give to retailers are going to be rare. :-)

-Rob

[evildead2099]

I honestly feel that the game should've been rated AO to begin with, sex mini-game or no sex mini-game. I'm actually appalled that more fuss has been made over the inclusion of the harmless sex scene than has been made of the game's over-the-top violence and lack of respect for humanity (Not to sound as though I want the game banned or censored - I'm just saying that so long as games are rated according to their content, GTA:SA should've gotten an AO as per its very, very anti-social content).


In a way I think this is a good thing, maybe it will help to make the AO rating a more viable alternative

I should hope so. Those fucknuts running Wal-Mart stand to lose lot of sales if they continue to stand behind their hypocritically* blind policy of discrimination against all adult entertainment (magazines, music, movies, games, etc).

* I refer to Wal-Mart's policy of blind censorship of media as hypocritical since the store refuses to stock NC-17 films or sell Tipper-stickered albums for fear of the harm they could conceivably cause yet has no qualms about selling firearms nor cigarettes.

[kainemaxwell]

Well, the senators found something new to pussifiy America with, and here's another of their newest efforts:
http://www.pauseparentplay.org/

[Mr.FoodMonster]

I hope this dosn't negatively affect any future GTA release...

[darknut101]

Does this mean EB will be pulling it off the shelf? I thought EB didn't sell AO games or at least have them out on the shelves.

[Mr.FoodMonster]

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/new-for-you/top-sellers/-/videogames/468642/ref=pd_ts_tb_h/103-4960836-1038204

Look at the top 10 Amazon games. All three versions of GTA:SA are up there. Surprized?


/Nancy Drew: Secret of the Old Clock... WTF?!?

[evildead2099]

Does this mean EB will be pulling it off the shelf? I thought EB didn't sell AO games or at least have them out on the shelves.

That's not the policy with EB stores in Canada (or so my local EB clerks tell me). I wouldn't support EB if I knew that they take the Wal-Mart / Blockbuster approach to media intended for adult entertainment. EB stocked copies of Phantasmagoria (1) back in the day as well as uncensored copies of Phantasmagoria: A Puzzle of Flesh (The Wal-Mart copies of Phantasmagoria has the sexual sequences permanently censored out of the game, yet - surprise! - left all the violence and gore intact).

[Mangar]

EB and most stores will still stock the game. The only real "downside" for Rockstar is that Wal-Mart won't. But with such a high profile title, that really won't effect sales even a tiny bit. It's the lower profile games which would really suffer under an AO rating. GTA would not.

If anything - This does nothing more then increase consumer demand. More importantly, it also helps set future precedent. It's a popular title that sells very well, which means even stores that would be "open" to say - Not stocking a **TRUE** AO title, will still stock this one. Which does open the door to even more risque AO titles being made and stocked in the future. It also kills the idea of an EB, Gamestop, etc... instituting an "Ban on all AO Games."

If anything - The holy rollers who supported this and lobbied for it, pretty much just opened the floodgates. Especially if sales get a nice bump, and it remains stocked by retailers.

Side Note: Just to re-emphasise something. An AO rating is still non-binding and voluntary. Which means that if i wanna sell GTA:San Andreas to you're 12 year old - By law i still can :)

[zmweasel]

But doesn't this then have to change the way ESRB rates the games? Are they going to have to hire their own hackers scan thru the data bit by bit looking for any buried "offensive" material? Otherwise their rating could not be trusted anymore.

It sure does change things. The ESRB's own prez admitted that this unbelievable turn of events--and I am blown away right now--has "seriously undermined...the credibility and utility" of video game ratings.

And, as Rockstar's prez said, "the decision to re-rate a game based on an unauthorized third-party modification presents a new challenge for parents, the interactive entertainment industry and anyone who distributes or consumes digital content." No shit!


Doesn't really matter seeing as the game has already sold millions of copies, however Rockstar has basically shot themselves in the foot for future releases of theirs.

Not only will the ESRB shine a flashlight up R*'s ass forevermore, but R* has had to downwardly adjust its financial expectations by $50 million for the quarter to account for exchanges and returns of the now AO-rated version, and manufacture of a true M-rated version with the hidden content completely excised from the disc.

R* is also implying that it's going to sue the modders. From a press release:

"We are deeply concerned that the publicity surrounding these unauthorized modifications has caused the game to be misrepresented to the public and has detracted from the creative merits of this award winning product...Take-Two is exploring its legal options as it relates to companies that profited from creating and distributing tools for altering the content of Grand Theft Auto: San Andreas."

R* has a damn good case, too. I'd love to see a suit happen, if only 'cause then maybe we'll find out who came up with the sex mini-game and why it was ultimately hidden.


EB and most stores will still stock the game. The only real "downside" for Rockstar is that Wal-Mart won't. But with such a high profile title, that really won't effect sales even a tiny bit.

Wal-Mart represents about one-fourth of the U.S. video game market. Of course it affects sales. Target and Best Buy ain't exactly small taters, either.

EDIT: GameStop and Software Etc. have both pulled SA.

-- Z.

[Avenger]

i think its totally ridiculous that sex is so hush hush dont do it...but violence? sure you can blow off any many heads as you want, just NO SEX!!!!

Sex creates life.....murder (in real life) is sick, not sex, gimme a break....people are totally stupid...I think games like Manhunt need an AO rating...

this reminds me of Sin City, where I heard of kids being allowed to go see it, as long as there was no sex....Jesus H Christ...people have their prioritys totally fucked up...

note: I loved San Andreas, but it does deserve an AO...AO doesnt mean its a bad game, it can still be a wicked game...but violence is worse than sex anyday.

we live in a very upside down world...sorry if i rambled a bit, im being rushed :P

[MrRoboto19XX]

I worked at a babbage's for about 2 years, including when SA came out.

My boss essentially said "nevermind" to checking for IDs, and even got mad when I informed parents of the M rating.

It can be said this is as much retail's fault as it is Rockstar's.

[goatdan]

It sure does change things. The ESRB's own prez admitted that this unbelievable turn of events--and I am blown away right now--has "seriously undermined...the credibility and utility" of video game ratings.

It does -- although it really just highlights the problem that the ESRB had the entire time. The ESRB gives game developers / producers the opportunity to send them the 'worst' parts of the game, as well as the general idea of gameplay in a video. But that means that the game makers can manipulate game ratings however they want. The ESRB has never changed a rating, and there has never been anything negative to happen to a game that has negatively impacted them.

If GTA:SA had a T rating, and should've been rated M, chances are very good that it wouldn't have been changed, and if it had to be changed, there was NO penalty.

The ESRB was waiting to self destruct on something like this. Unlike movies, you don't get to see everything in it when you're rated...


Not only will the ESRB shine a flashlight up R*'s ass forevermore, but R* has had to downwardly adjust its financial expectations by $50 million for the quarter to account for exchanges and returns of the now AO-rated version, and manufacture of a true M-rated version with the hidden content completely excised from the disc.

Honestly, I feel that whether it is R* or EA or Activision, something like this had to happen, and quite frankly with the amount of violence and language in GTA, I wonder if the movie board would've found an R rating appropriate for it. Technically, the R* should've sent the sex scenes to the ESRB if they were some of the most graphic in the game, regardless of how they were in the game. I think R* wanted someone to find these games so they would get more publicity for the game after it came out -- but this has backfired on them badly.


"We are deeply concerned that the publicity surrounding these unauthorized modifications has caused the game to be misrepresented to the public and has detracted from the creative merits of this award winning product...Take-Two is exploring its legal options as it relates to companies that profited from creating and distributing tools for altering the content of Grand Theft Auto: San Andreas."

I think that as we've seen, the Game Genie was legal... and this seems to be changing the code in the same way that the Game Gear changed things with the NES.


R* has a damn good case, too. I'd love to see a suit happen, if only 'cause then maybe we'll find out who came up with the sex mini-game and why it was ultimately hidden.

R* did say in one of the articles above that the games were kept in by them, and that they are present (but currently un-unlockable) in the PS2 and Xbox versions.


Wal-Mart represents about one-fourth of the U.S. video game market. Of course it affects sales. Target and Best Buy ain't exactly small taters, either.

EDIT: GameStop and Software Etc. have both pulled SA.

And, if I'm not mistaken, AO games _require_ an adult to buy them, while M titles are up to the stores themselves to police.

[SoulBlazer]

Like I said in other posts -- the ESRB needs to step up and CHANGE how they are doing things. Otherwise they may very well have Congress breathing down their -- and the whole industry's -- necks.

So what about EB? Will they not sell the AO version of GTA?

I wonder how long it will take for Rockstar to release a new M rated version of the game.

And I suspect the AO stickers are going to be collectable. ;)

I'm sure all of this press will help the sales of the game, but the floodgates are open, the damage is done, and the ESRB and the retailers need to sit down and decide what they are going to do to try to prevent this from happening again.

[JSN]

I work at GameStop. We got a district level phone call (around 7 pm central) telling us to pull all versions of GTA:SA from the shelves (new and used) and to no longer accept any trade ins for the title.

I'm assuming that tomorrow we will know corprate's word on this title and what they are planning to do with it.

[Mr.FoodMonster]

Pulling I could understand.. but not accepting any trade ins? To me, thats a surefire clue that your local EB and GS wont be selling this game anymore. If it was just pulling the game, the reason I see that is so that R* could give the AO 'stickers' or whatever out for it.

/needs to buy an action replay and test it out for myself

[JSN]

I'm assuming that the order to not accept trade ins was just a quick "cover your butts" kind of thing. I think that maybe that order didn't come all the way from the top and may be reconsidered.

[evildead2099]

"the decision to re-rate a game based on an unauthorized third-party modification presents a new challenge for parents, the interactive entertainment industry and anyone who distributes or consumes digital content." No shit!

I'll say.

'Oh no. Super Mario Bros can be transformed into a racist hack of a game. I guess we should give it an A.O. rating - just in case white supremacists end up hacking the game's graphics to suit their hateful beliefs.'

[retroman]

im almost 27 so i dont really care.....but i think a Mature sticker was good enough...

[goatdan]

Like I said in other posts -- the ESRB needs to step up and CHANGE how they are doing things. Otherwise they may very well have Congress breathing down their -- and the whole industry's -- necks.

And as I said in other posts, it isn't what the ESRB is doing, but what sort of repercussions the ratings systems have on other games.

Imagine -- Every game *has* to be rated, and a rating now costs $50,000. That suddenly means that the amount of small games that are published will essentially drop to nothing, and less and less companies will be able to compete.

The ESRB does a good job, it is the companies supplying the video footage that need to be looked into.

[kevincure]

Am I missing something? Afaik, the content isn't actually part of the game, but was simply leftover on the disc and requires downloading a mod to even view. It was never intended to be part of the release of the game. Should be bump up TRs rating because you can make a nude patch for it?

Of course, R* is absolutely insane for allowing the disc to go out the door with this content on it, even if it couldn't be accessed without a mod. They're even more insane for flat-out lying to the public and the media about the source of the scene. The scene was created by R*, the viewing was enabled by modders. That's a long way from "modders did this, we had nothing to do with it." It reminds me of the Ivy League b-school "hacking" last year - some guy figured out that by changing the numbers at the end of an http address, you could view you admissions decision. Clearly just awful security from the schools and not hacking at all. Nonetheless, the schools called it hacking, the media repeated this preposterous claim, and the schools changed the decision to "reject" for everyone who had looked at their decision. The media needs more tech-literate reporters.

[OdSquad64]

hmmm.... i was waiting to get GTA:SA used for cheap, but now that i can have it with an AO down in the corner i'll probably buy it new... i'll just have to find a place to sell it to me, does anyone with a Rhino Games in their area know if they'll be selling it and/or selling it to minors?
i see that EB hasn't taken it off their website yet, and the commercial for the game still says M

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y71/odsquad64/gta.jpg

[Griking]

I think R* wanted someone to find these games so they would get more publicity for the game fter it came out -- but this has backfired on them badly.\

That's already the rumor going around (http://www.gamespot.com/news/2005/07/16/news_6129324.html). Of course Rockstar would never admit it now.

[kainemaxwell]

I work at GameStop. We got a district level phone call (around 7 pm central) telling us to pull all versions of GTA:SA from the shelves (new and used) and to no longer accept any trade ins for the title.

I'm assuming that tomorrow we will know corprate's word on this title and what they are planning to do with it.

My FYE'll likely have our copies of SA on the recall shelf then when I go in tommorow night if that's the case...

[Griking]

"the decision to re-rate a game based on an unauthorized third-party modification presents a new challenge for parents, the interactive entertainment industry and anyone who distributes or consumes digital content." No shit!

I'll say.

'Oh no. Super Mario Bros can be transformed into a racist hack of a game. I guess we should give it an A.O. rating - just in case white supremacists end up hacking the game's graphics to suit their hateful beliefs.'

You see what you're failing to remember is that GTA supposingly shipped with the AO content in it and the hack just allowed someone to access the AO content. That's a lot different than a hack that actually adds the adult only content.

[Overbite]

I still think its stupid that the game is getting an AO rating for something that cant be seen unless you hack into the game (or get a mod for the PC, but how many little kids are playing the PC version and they wouldn't know how to do that anyway). It's not out in the open waiting for little kids to stumble across!

[Griking]

I still think its stupid that the game is getting an AO rating for something that cant be seen unless you hack into the game (or get a mod for the PC, but how many little kids are playing the PC version and they wouldn't know how to do that anyway). It's not out in the open waiting for little kids to stumble across!

Kids know how to download emulators and roms to play games that they want to play. They also know how to mod their Playstations and Xboxes. You really think they can't figure out how to install a game mod? After all, it really doesn't seem to be any more difficult than using a gameshark. Do kinds know how to use them?

[zmweasel]

It does -- although it really just highlights the problem that the ESRB had the entire time. The ESRB gives game developers / producers the opportunity to send them the 'worst' parts of the game, as well as the general idea of gameplay in a video. But that means that the game makers can manipulate game ratings however they want. The ESRB has never changed a rating, and there has never been anything negative to happen to a game that has negatively impacted them.

And what a horrible precedent was set by this first rating flip-flop.

It's a HUGE win for scumbag politicians and Bible-thumpers who want to tell Americans what they cannot read, watch, or do.

It's a HUGE loss for the ESRB, which has betrayed the game industry by caving in to scumbag politicians and giving a game the scarlet letters based on the unauthorized actions of a *third party*, for fuck's sake.

It's a loss for videogame developers, who'll feel pressured to rein in mature themes, and who'll be less likely to pursue gameplay ideas, since they'll have to delete every last byte of those ideas from the code (at a cost of time and money) if they don't work out. Either that or just make their games as hacker-unfriendly as possible.

it's a loss for Rockstar, which which will undoubtedly have to rethink its entire approach.

It's a loss for Sony if Liberty City Stories, the PSP's killer app, gets pushed into '06 while R* combs through it for "objectionable" content.


I think R* wanted someone to find these games so they would get more publicity for the game after it came out -- but this has backfired on them badly.

I don't believe that R* intended for the sex mini-game to be found because it can't be accessed without a third-party hack or utility. If there was an in-game code, like the blood code for the Genesis version of MK, I'd believe this was intentional. R* doesn't gain anything by forcing people to buy an Action Replay for their PS2 or Xbox.


I think that as we've seen, the Game Genie was legal... and this seems to be changing the code in the same way that the Game Gear changed things with the NES.

Right, but Nintendo was never held legally responsible for what players did to their games with the Game Genie, while R* is taking a $50 million-or-more beating for what a Dutch guy illegally did to its game.

I can only imagine the legal jargon that'll appear in instruction manuals and games henceforth, as companies are forced to cover their asses from third-party hackery.

-- Z.

[zmweasel]

Kids know how to download emulators and roms to play games that they want to play. They also know how to mod their Playstations and Xboxes. You really think they can't figure out how to install a game mod? After all, it really doesn't seem to be any more difficult than using a gameshark. Do kinds know how to use them?

So you're saying that R* should be held accountable for what hackers and other third parties do to their code, and that it should be held accountable because kids know how to engage in illegal behavior.

You're joking, right?

-- Z.

[thegreatescape]

Well, the senators found something new to pussifiy America with, and here's another of their newest efforts:
http://www.pauseparentplay.org/

Video-game wise there doesnt seem to be anything really wrong with the site; all it does is link to the ESRB rating descriptions and the Walmart mature merch policy. Is this not what people were screaming out for in the other thread (more parent involvement) ?

[Mr.FoodMonster]

Alright, I'm confused about something. They changed the rating to AO, duh. R* said they are patching up the game to make this stuff non-accesible. Does that mean that the copies already floating around are to be concidered AO, and that once they 'fix' the game, those new ones will be M? If they wont be, then what the hell is the point in taking that stuff out of there? It already got the AO rating, why not just ::gasp:: leave it in?

[Griking]

And what a horrible precedent was set by this first rating flip-flop.

It's a HUGE win for scumbag politicians and Bible-thumpers who want to tell Americans what they cannot read, watch, or do.

No, they're only telling the Ameican children what they can't purchase on their own. If someone's parent feels that it's completely acceptable for their 13 child to play a game where you can violently kill others and engage in sex acts then they can go out and purchase the game for them.


It's a HUGE loss for the ESRB, which has betrayed the game industry by caving in to scumbag politicians and giving a game the scarlet letters based on the unauthorized actions of a *third party*, for fuck's sake.

Who actually created the AO graphics and animations and included them in the full retual version of the game, Rockstar or the hackers?


It's a loss for videogame developers, who'll feel pressured to rein in mature themes, and who'll be less likely to pursue gameplay ideas, since they'll have to delete every last byte of those ideas from the code (at a cost of time and money) if they don't work out. Either that or just make their games as hacker-unfriendly as possible.

Yeah, future games are going to suck so bad now that companies may have second thoughts before they include sex and extreme graphic violence in the games that they market to children. Innovation will be shot to hell as well because God knows we never would have seen innovative new games like Katamari Damacy if Namco wasn't allowed to push the envelope of what's acceptable. :roll:


it's a loss for Rockstar, which which will undoubtedly have to rethink its entire approach.

Poor Rockstar. When you repeatedly decide to push the boundaries of what's acceptable it boggles my mind that they weren't prepared for the possibility that this might someday happen.


It's a loss for Sony if Liberty City Stories, the PSP's killer app, gets pushed into '06 while R* combs through it for "objectionable" content.

I thought that Kill Bill Volume 2 was the PSP's next killer app LOL


I don't believe that R* intended for the sex mini-game to be found because it can't be accessed without a third-party hack or utility.

There are rumors out there (http://www.gamespot.com/news/2005/07/16/news_6129324.html) as to why Rockstar may have purposely included the adult only content.

[zmweasel]

Alright, I'm confused about something. They changed the rating to AO, duh. R* said they are patching up the game to make this stuff non-accesible. Does that mean that the copies already floating around are to be concidered AO, and that once they 'fix' the game, those new ones will be M? If they wont be, then what the hell is the point in taking that stuff out of there? It already got the AO rating, why not just ::gasp:: leave it in?

R* isn't "patching up" the game, since the sex mini-game was ALREADY inaccessible. They're going into the code and removing the sex mini-game.

The copies floating around now have been retro-rated AO, which most retailers won't carry.

The re-released version will be M, which all retailers will.

-- Z.

[Griking]

Kids know how to download emulators and roms to play games that they want to play. They also know how to mod their Playstations and Xboxes. You really think they can't figure out how to install a game mod? After all, it really doesn't seem to be any more difficult than using a gameshark. Do kinds know how to use them?

So you're saying that R* should be held accountable for what hackers and other third parties do to their code, and that it should be held accountable because kids know how to engage in illegal behavior.

You're joking, right?

-- Z.

No, no joke. I think that Rockstar should be held accountable for any data that they put on a CD or DVD that they release. It's irresponsible (and just plain dumb) for them to have included the AO content on the DVD in the first place.

[zmweasel]

No, they're only telling the Ameican children what they can't purchase on their own. If someone's parent feels that it's completely acceptable for their 13 child to play a game where you can violently kill others and engage in sex acts then they can go out and purchase the game for them.

The M rating *already* prevented children from purchasing the game from any responsible retailer.


Who actually created the AO graphics and animations and included them in the full retual version of the game, Rockstar or the hackers?

There are dozens of games currently available with unused or unimplemented content in their code, and besides, you're missing the point, which is that a hacker dug up the content, and R* is being penalized $50 million or more for his illegal actions.

To digress, I find it telling that absolutely no one cared about The Punisher mod that unlocked its AO-rated violent content. Why didn't The Punisher receive an AO rating for the content that remains on the disc? (Because Americans are uptight about sex and love violence, of course.)


Yeah, future games are going to suck so bad now that companies may have second thoughts before they include sex and extreme graphic violence in the games that they market to children.

I try to stay out of personal digressions, but do you actually have children?

As for M-rated games being "marketed to children," on what do you base this claim? What aspects of San Andreas's marketing personally struck you as directed at children?


Innovation will be shot to hell as well because God knows we never would have seen innovative new games like Katamari Damacy if Namco wasn't allowed to push the envelope of what's acceptable.

Katamari Damacy was a throwback to an era of simpler gameplay, while GTA: San Andreas and other R* products deliver edgy adult-themed content. Vastly different games with vastly different design philosophies.


There are rumors out there (http://www.gamespot.com/news/2005/07/16/news_6129324.html) as to why Rockstar may have purposely included the adult only content.

Rumors are merely that. Unless someone can come up with an in-game code that unlocks the sexual content, or digs up evidence of a covert deal between R* and Datel (the manufacturers of the Action Replay), we can safely assume the mini-game was never meant to be seen.

-- Z.

[zmweasel]

No, no joke. I think that Rockstar should be held accountable for any data that they put on a CD or DVD that they release. It's irresponsible (and just plain dumb) for them to have included the AO content on the DVD in the first place.

I'm not asking if R* should be held accountable for the data on the disc. I'm asking if R* should be held accountable for what third parties do with that data (including illegal modifications to software and/or hardware).

-- Z.

[SoulBlazer]

I don't think the ESRB had a CHOICE but to change the game to a AO rating. They missed it and are covering their asses.

Of course, it's more the fault of Rockstar (who should have removed the game in the first place) and the hacker (who was'nt authorized to go in to find the material) but with all the hell that the ESRB was taking -- and not all of it deserved, I admit -- they caved.

We'll just have to see what the fallout from this is.

Now I know why I spend more time playing PC games. LOL

[kevincure]

Incidentally, there was a similar situation a few years back with a very different response. The PSX version of Test Drive Le Mans had an episode of South Park hidden on the disc, which could be accessed by putting the disc in a computer. Surely the content in the episode (because being trouble because of copyright violation) would've pushed Le Mans into M territory? I don't remember any uproar or "retroactive" decision back then.

Further, how is this AO content even if it on the disc? Maybe I didn't see everything, but what I saw certainly wasn't explicit. Is the boundary that M, which the industry is playing off as a videogame R rating, can't contain sexual content at all? That seems a strange boundary, doesn't it. A sex scene in a film could happen in a PG-13, and rather explicit scenes have made their way into the R. Zach is right that the ESRB is caving here.

[Lothars]

Kids know how to download emulators and roms to play games that they want to play. They also know how to mod their Playstations and Xboxes. You really think they can't figure out how to install a game mod? After all, it really doesn't seem to be any more difficult than using a gameshark. Do kinds know how to use them?

So you're saying that R* should be held accountable for what hackers and other third parties do to their code, and that it should be held accountable because kids know how to engage in illegal behavior.

You're joking, right?

-- Z.

No, no joke. I think that Rockstar should be held accountable for any data that they put on a CD or DVD that they release. It's irresponsible (and just plain dumb) for them to have included the AO content on the DVD in the first place.

Absolutly no

your telling me that they should have a rating because of the content not included in the game itself and only on the disk, absolutly not

that's like saying well this pc game was T but because someone modded it to add something different than what was on the main game itself than it should go to a M rating

that wouldn't make any sense and the rating in GTA:SA changing from M to AO is a idiotic event that really shouldn't of happened.

It would be totally different if it was accessible by a code or something along those lines, but since it's accessible from a user made mod it shouldn't have any bearing what so ever on the rating.

[The_EniGma]

I still think its stupid that the game is getting an AO rating for something that cant be seen unless you hack into the game (or get a mod for the PC, but how many little kids are playing the PC version and they wouldn't know how to do that anyway). It's not out in the open waiting for little kids to stumble across!

Kids know how to download emulators and roms to play games that they want to play. They also know how to mod their Playstations and Xboxes. You really think they can't figure out how to install a game mod? After all, it really doesn't seem to be any more difficult than using a gameshark. Do kinds know how to use them?

Why are all kids stickered with the "tech retarded" label? Im 13, i play gta san andreas, have good knowledge of PCs and have even SOLDERED in a modchip. Not all kids are dumb. After all, this patch is just a little dragging and dropping into a damn folder.

Anyway back onto the thread discussion

It seems the gaems are constantly underfire from this or that organization but can someone please explain US ratings?

Here in the uk we have the advisory ratings, they are

3+ 7+ 12+ 16+ and 18+ (they are in a grey PEGI box) and can be bought by anyone, they are advisory only

Whereas we also have 12+ 15+ 18+ BBFC ratings, where as above if you are under the age of 16 and trying to buy a pegi game its fine, if your under 18 and trying to buy a BBFC rating game IT IS ILLEGAL. same goes for movies

What i dont understand is why dont they just make ratings based on age, eg u cant buy a certain game unless you are that age.

As for the minigame, it would have futhur caused glitchs+ complications and put the game back futhur in time. Now there will be a period in the US where gta will be a pain in the ass to find since it seems that many retailers dont stock this AO games. IMO whats teh point of not stocking AO games, its a fuckin sticker on the fron of the case. But knowing the phenominal success of GTA, maybe the stores may give it a pardon from this ban?

[Daniel Thomas]

The lesson here is: don't do anything that makes you an easy target for the American Taliban. Especially when they desperately need something to shove Traitor-Gate and Iraq off the top of the news cycle.

It's too bad hackers dug up the sex thing. Perhaps it shouldn't have been programmed in the first place. Not that I could get upset, mind you. Americans are obsessed with fear and violence, and that's okay. Sex is bad. Especially if, say, you're a woman and/or gay.

But you can still get ammo at Wal-Mart.

I'd also suggest that we stop calling GTA an "adult-themed" game? This isn't aimed at adults, it's aimed at the same demographic as everything else in American pop culture: teenage boys. They're being shovelled ultra-violence and gangsta rap stereotpe fantasies. We can debate GTA's value as games, but, please, they aren't meant for adults. They're meant for Beavis and Butthead.

Finally, don't worry about Rockstar. The controversy means that their next GTA game will sell like hotcakes. Nothing sells faster than hype and controversy. It's the American way!

(waves flags while humming that song from The Simpsons)

[The_EniGma]

Isn't america taking this too far, it is afterall a GAME. Something fake and madeup. Many mums would protest to the sex games in GTA but do they see whats on the discovery channel? We all find out about sex one way or another, you just can't hide it.

[zmweasel]

Incidentally, there was a similar situation a few years back with a very different response. The PSX version of Test Drive Le Mans had an episode of South Park hidden on the disc, which could be accessed by putting the disc in a computer. Surely the content in the episode (because being trouble because of copyright violation) would've pushed Le Mans into M territory? I don't remember any uproar or "retroactive" decision back then.

Was it Test Drive Le Mans or Tiger Woods PGA Tour '99? I thought it was the latter.

And it wasn't an episode of South Park; it was "The Spirit of Christmas," a raunchy short commissoned as a Christmas gift to Fox executives, that ended up as a "pilot" of sorts for South Park.

But you're right that it was M-rated content on an E-rated game's disc, and that it was inaccessible in-game (you had to play the video file on a PC). EA "recalled" the game at the time, but I don't know that any retailers bothered.

-- Z.

[zmweasel]

As for the minigame, it would have futhur caused glitchs+ complications and put the game back futhur in time.

Correct. Games ship with unused content all the time. Knights of the Old Republic II shipped with unused dialogue (which revealed a much better ending than the one in the final game!). GoldenEye shipped with a half-finished level that took hackers half a decade to dig out. The Resident Evil 2 demo for PS1 had all kinds of unused graphic and gameplay data that only Game Sharks could reveal.

The only difference between SA's unused content and these other examples is that SA's unused content is sexually explicit, allowing scumbag politicians to use it as a weapon in their heinous quest to place video games under federal control. And this was a huge victory for them.

-- Z.

[Oobgarm]

I'm glad I got a copy at GameStop yesterday before all of this went down. :)

In reality, though, I don't get how a company can include things like that on a disc and expect people not to find it. Especially not in this day and age. I enjoy Rockstar's products, but I have trouble believing that they thought they could leave it on the disc and expect no one to find it. You'd have to be completely stupid not to forsee what kind of situation would arise in this "moral" society if the existance of something like that became public(which, obviously, it did).

For a laugh, go check eBay and see how many GTA:SA auctions there are now. Wonder if eBay will crack down on them since the rating is misleading?

[DDCecil]

Incidentally, there was a similar situation a few years back with a very different response. The PSX version of Test Drive Le Mans had an episode of South Park hidden on the disc, which could be accessed by putting the disc in a computer. Surely the content in the episode (because being trouble because of copyright violation) would've pushed Le Mans into M territory? I don't remember any uproar or "retroactive" decision back then.

Was it Test Drive Le Mans or Tiger Woods PGA Tour '99? I thought it was the latter.

And it wasn't an episode of South Park; it was "The Spirit of Christmas," a raunchy short commissoned as a Christmas gift to Fox executives, that ended up as a "pilot" of sorts for South Park.

But you're right that it was M-rated content on an E-rated game's disc, and that it was inaccessible in-game (you had to play the video file on a PC). EA "recalled" the game at the time, but I don't know that any retailers bothered.

-- Z.

It was a Tiger Woods game, but I keep thinking it was '98 (but it probably was '99)... I remember getting the game in at my dad's store in late '98, early '99, put it in the PC, and behold... a file called zzzzzzz.***

[Oobgarm]

Incidentally, there was a similar situation a few years back with a very different response. The PSX version of Test Drive Le Mans had an episode of South Park hidden on the disc, which could be accessed by putting the disc in a computer. Surely the content in the episode (because being trouble because of copyright violation) would've pushed Le Mans into M territory? I don't remember any uproar or "retroactive" decision back then.

Was it Test Drive Le Mans or Tiger Woods PGA Tour '99? I thought it was the latter.

And it wasn't an episode of South Park; it was "The Spirit of Christmas," a raunchy short commissoned as a Christmas gift to Fox executives, that ended up as a "pilot" of sorts for South Park.

But you're right that it was M-rated content on an E-rated game's disc, and that it was inaccessible in-game (you had to play the video file on a PC). EA "recalled" the game at the time, but I don't know that any retailers bothered.

-- Z.

It was a Tiger Woods game, but I keep thinking it was '98 (but it probably was '99)... I remember getting the game in at my dad's store in late '98, early '99, put it in the PC, and behold... a file called zzzzzzz.***

It was Tiger Woods '99. The 'dirty' version of that game doesn't draw a premium, does it?

[Lady Jaye]

So, does this make GTA: San Andreas the first major release to be rated AO? Or has there been any AAA title released before with the AO rating?

[Oobgarm]

So, does this make GTA: San Andreas the first major release to be rated AO? Or has there been any AAA title released before with the AO rating?

It is the first CONSOLE game to be rated AO. All other AO titles are on PC/Mac only. You can check ESRB.org to see what I'm talking about.

And yes, it is the first AAA title to be rated AO. :)

[Crazycarl]

im kinda pissed since this another thing to make video games look like "the tool of the devil" to parents. but on the other hand w/ the AO rating it will finally stay out of the children's hands that shouldn't be having it in the first place. We do have to take in the fact children just gather all the info around them, and act on it. It what they are soposed to do, its called learning. They should not be playing games were they shoot human, and really anything else untill their the age were they can desypher (sp?) what is fiction, and what is real. :angry:

I'm just pissed that it had to go this far. Well maybe one day parents will see that they are the ones to blame for the fact that their kid is talking about shooting up a cop when their 12, after playing GTA *. :angry:

* and by this i don't mean every 12 yr. old will want to shoot a cop after playing GTA, im just saying that most kids at a young age don't see the diff b/w reality, and a game so they could actuelly think that this is something fun and "cool".

[ozyr]

Wow, three pages and counting - and I thought I was the first person to read about this early this morning. As someone else point, they shot themselves in the foot really good. Talk about 'stupid'. The thing I hate is that they are making the media and others look more closely at 'so-called' bad games (and by bad, I mean bad content, not play)...

Oh well... :hmm:

[kainemaxwell]

There was no misquoting Patricia Vance, president of the ESRB. In a sternly worded statement on the ESRB site, she said "we have concluded that sexually explicit material exists in a fully rendered, unmodified form on the final discs of all three platform versions of the game (i.e., PC CD-ROM, Xbox, and PS2)." She also had harsh words for Take-Two. "Considering the existence of the undisclosed and highly pertinent content on the final discs, compounded by the broad distribution of the third party modification, the credibility and utility of the initial ESRB rating has been seriously undermined," she said. "Going forward, the ESRB will now require all game publishers to submit any pertinent content shipped in final product even if is not intended to ever be accessed during game play, or remove it from the final disc."

Vance did concur with Rockstar's assertion that the sex minigames were "programmed by Rockstar to be inaccessible to the player and they have stated that it was never intended to be made accessible. The material can only be accessed by downloading a software patch, created by an independent third party without Rockstar's permission, which is now freely available on the Internet and through console accessories." A Rockstar spokesperson said the company was considering legal action against Action Replay, GameShark, and other makers of console cheat devices that allow access to the sex minigames.

Whatcha think of this?
Source: http://www.gamespot.com/news/2005/07/20/news_6129500.html

[Crazycarl]

my other fav of the day is that i was listening to a news anchor and they said "just how many more games have bad hidden content in them". Well let me count 1....ummm thats it. hell look at the Disney cartoons with the hidden content, nobody went apeshit with that. better stop ranting or else i'll throw my tv out the window.

[slip81]

this makes me wonder, what kind of unused code was left behind in GTA III and Vice City?

[s1lence]

Well, ebgames just pulled it off there webpage this morning. I hope game crazy still has a copy that I can pick up. Here's the link http://www.ebgames.com/ebx/product/255283.asp
:angry:

[goatdan]

Holy crap is there a lot to reply too! I'm going to just cut and paste from about 10 replies...


Am I missing something? Afaik, the content isn't actually part of the game, but was simply leftover on the disc and requires downloading a mod to even view. [...]

Of course, R* is absolutely insane for allowing the disc to go out the door with this content on it, even if it couldn't be accessed without a mod. They're even more insane for flat-out lying to the public and the media about the source of the scene. The scene was created by R*, the viewing was enabled by modders. That's a long way from "modders did this, we had nothing to do with it."

Exactly. I wonder if they had approached it as, "Yup. We did it. It wasn't supposed to be enabled." how things would've worked.


And what a horrible precedent was set by this first rating flip-flop.

It's a HUGE win for scumbag politicians and Bible-thumpers...

It's a HUGE loss for the ESRB...

It's a loss for videogame developers...

it's a loss for Rockstar...

It's a loss for Sony...

I think it is all of the above too, but it can be changed into something good. The ESRB, to work, HAS to have some teeth where if a game is found to have content that wasn't highlighted in their videos the company who submitted the videos is held liable for a fine.

GTA:SA isn't the first game to come under fire. I remember a while ago seeing a report on TV about games that were mis-rated (a few E games that showed significant blood / bad language and so on). It is just that GTA:SA was the highest profile name, and was the first game that the scumbag politicians / bible thumpers could rail away on. This one made the ESRB look foolish, and R* is left looking like a moron for leaving the code in there. Unfortunately, I think that something like this needed to happen, so the ESRB can revise their methods (again, I'm hoping for fines and not upping their fees) so that politics can continue to not dictate things.

The other thing is that the ESRB needs to decide more about what constitues an AO rating versus a M rating, and start to use the AO rating. If GTA can succeed at an AO rating, it could pave the way for future AO releases that would be able to push the boundaries in new ways.


I don't believe that R* intended for the sex mini-game to be found because it can't be accessed without a third-party hack or utility. If there was an in-game code, like the blood code for the Genesis version of MK, I'd believe this was intentional. R* doesn't gain anything by forcing people to buy an Action Replay for their PS2 or Xbox.

Except the TONS and TONS of publicity by the finding of this. Hell, it makes me more interested to see what the big deal is about, and I'm not exactly a fan of the GTA gameplay style.

Remember a few months ago that Kennedy assassination game that was rated AO? No one would've heard of it if it wasn't all over the news being held up as a "horrid" game, but since it was they sold a ton of copies and everyone heard about it. I think R* was trying to get another round of people to buy the game so they could use third party things to open it, and get people to talk about it again.

Besides that, if R* really didn't want the games to be found, they could have easily redone the code there with very little time loss to not work. Locking them out in such a simple style with the entire thing being there, only needing a simple hack to find... Seems kinda fishy. Especially when hackers *have* found things like the extra Bond level and the extra dialouge in KOTOR2. They _had_ to realize that it could be -- and probably would be found.


Right, but Nintendo was never held legally responsible for what players did to their games with the Game Genie, while R* is taking a $50 million-or-more beating for what a Dutch guy illegally did to its game.

Nothing that R* did is illegal however, and it would be very debateable about whether the modification is illegal or not... Their losses will come from a shifting of their rating. Not from fines or anything like that.


Rumors are merely that. Unless someone can come up with an in-game code that unlocks the sexual content, or digs up evidence of a covert deal between R* and Datel (the manufacturers of the Action Replay), we can safely assume the mini-game was never meant to be seen.

...and...


Correct. Games ship with unused content all the time. Knights of the Old Republic II shipped with unused dialogue (which revealed a much better ending than the one in the final game!). GoldenEye shipped with a half-finished level that took hackers half a decade to dig out. The Resident Evil 2 demo for PS1 had all kinds of unused graphic and gameplay data that only Game Sharks could reveal.

Just wanted to point these two out together. Again, all of the games that have stuff above were found out about. ALl of them were very good sellers. Rockstar knew that GTA would be a big seller too, and they had to know that if the entire code was left in there, there was a very good chance it would be found.


The only difference between SA's unused content and these other examples is that SA's unused content is sexually explicit, allowing scumbag politicians to use it as a weapon in their heinous quest to place video games under federal control. And this was a huge victory for them.

Actually, I would say that you're dead on with the reasoning here. There was no reason that a game like KOTOR or RE2 would've been re-rated because their additional content isn't different than the main gameplay. If people found that KOTOR 2 had a 'hidden' but accessable mode where you had to hack off baddies heads in slow motion as blood gushed from them while calling them each "f'ing aliens", I would expect that people might have taken offense at that one and the rating might've been changed.

It just so happens that the game that was really pushing the boundaries as it was had this hidden content in it that made it push them even further.


I don't think the ESRB had a CHOICE but to change the game to a AO rating. They missed it and are covering their asses.

The ESRB didn't miss it. The ESRB gets videos from the developers that is supposed to be the worst parts of the game (and apparently this means whatever you are pressing, regardless of how you need to access it.) The ESRB didn't see this part of the footage, and I'm guessing granted the rest of the game an M rating because they didn't want sales of it to suffer, and now with the public pressure mounting as well as these new scenes, they have to change the rating (and hopefully, their penalty methods... a drum I'll keep beating here even though no one here probably really cares ;) ).


The lesson here is: don't do anything that makes you an easy target for the American Taliban. Especially when they desperately need something to shove Traitor-Gate and Iraq off the top of the news cycle.

No. As you state slightly later, thanks to this:


Finally, don't worry about Rockstar. The controversy means that their next GTA game will sell like hotcakes. Nothing sells faster than hype and controversy. It's the American way!

Great post, but I think that your best point was this:


Perhaps it shouldn't have been programmed in the first place.

If R* was worried about the content, why did they include it in the game in the first place? And if they had any worries about some hacker finding it, why did they leave it in? They knew they would be making MILLIONS and MILLIONS of dollars on the game. Taking the extra time to remove the content might've been a good idea...


I'd also suggest that we stop calling GTA an "adult-themed" game? This isn't aimed at adults, it's aimed at the same demographic as everything else in American pop culture: teenage boys. They're being shovelled ultra-violence and gangsta rap stereotpe fantasies. We can debate GTA's value as games, but, please, they aren't meant for adults. They're meant for Beavis and Butthead.

I agree with you about where GTA is aimed, but not everything in American pop culture is aimed at teenage boys. By how you said that, I figure you're from Europe which from what I've seen both from visiting as well as knowing people elsewhere is that the American pop culture aimed at teenager boys is what tends to spread to the rest of the world for some reason. I'd say that things like football, the Apprentice and so on aren't teenage boy things, but they sure are popular here.



So, does this make GTA: San Andreas the first major release to be rated AO? Or has there been any AAA title released before with the AO rating?

It is the first CONSOLE game to be rated AO. All other AO titles are on PC/Mac only. You can check ESRB.org to see what I'm talking about.

And yes, it is the first AAA title to be rated AO. :)

It is not the first console game to be rated AO. There were 3DO games that were also rated AO. But it is the first major, popular release to be rated AO. Even the AO PC releases weren't exactly stuff that had mainstream attention (except the afforementioned Kennedy assassination game, and that only for stupid reasons).


[quote]There was no misquoting Patricia Vance, president of the ESRB. In a sternly worded statement on the ESRB site, she said "we have concluded that sexually explicit material exists in a fully rendered, unmodified form on the final discs of all three platform versions of the game (i.e., PC CD-ROM, Xbox, and PS2)." She also had harsh words for Take-Two. "Considering the existence of the undisclosed and highly pertinent content on the final discs, compounded by the broad distribution of the third party modification, the credibility and utility of the initial ESRB rating has been seriously undermined," she said. "Going forward, the ESRB will now require all game publishers to submit any pertinent content shipped in final product even if is not intended to ever be accessed during game play, or remove it from the final disc."

Hate to break this to you Patricia, but your rules are so easy to abuse that your 'changes' are nothing but ass-covering. Yes, the ESRB was seriously undermined, but this isn't the first time... and unless you actually grow some teeth, this won't be the last time.


Vance did concur with Rockstar's assertion that the sex minigames were "programmed by Rockstar to be inaccessible to the player and they have stated that it was never intended to be made accessible. The material can only be accessed by downloading a software patch, created by an independent third party without Rockstar's permission, which is now freely available on the Internet and through console accessories." A Rockstar spokesperson said the company was considering legal action against Action Replay, GameShark, and other makers of console cheat devices that allow access to the sex minigames.

Unless R* / Take 2's money is better at buying off politicians than anyone else's, this part won't go anywhere. It has been proved time and time again that such devices are legal. R* is essentially screwed here, but again -- they now want to make it look like they didn't mean to put that stuff in there, so threatening lawsuits is all that they can do. That might make it look like they really didn't think the mini-game would've ever been found.

In short:

- The ESRB needs to change their policies so this won't happen again, and if it does the game companies will be forced to pay a fine not just because of lessened sales of a game.
- It sucks that the Republicans can use this as an issue to make a big fuss about. But I think that unfortunately it was just a matter of time before they found some game to bitch about. It wasn't like the game industry or the ESRB would've done anything differently otherwise.
- R* had to know that the data could have -- and probably would have been found through time if they left it on there. There has been secret data found in tons of released popular games before.
- Even if Liberty City Stories is delayed for the PSP, this means that the game will get three times as much publicity at launch.
- The AO rating may begin to get used more and more often, which would lend some credibility to the ESRB as well as prove that AO games can sell enough to make money, which would actually push creative boundaries.

So, like I've been saying all along... this is something I've been expecting for a while, and hopefully good will come from it.

[goatdan]

Well, ebgames just pulled it off there webpage this morning. I hope game crazy still has a copy that I can pick up. Here's the link http://www.ebgames.com/ebx/product/255283.asp
:angry:

www.amazon.com

$48.99 Xbox
$49.99 PC Version

Enjoy.

[zmweasel]

I think it is all of the above too, but it can be changed into something good. The ESRB, to work, HAS to have some teeth where if a game is found to have content that wasn't highlighted in their videos the company who submitted the videos is held liable for a fine.

Who knows if the ESRB will even survive? As I expected, the scumbag politicians are quickly trying to turn their victory into a rout. Here's a statement from a press release issued by the conservative "National Institute for Media and the Family":

"'Now that it has been confirmed that Rockstar Games and its parent company, Take-Two Interactive Software, Inc., failed to disclose to the ESRB the pornographic content of Grand Theft Auto: San Andreas, the National Institute on Media and the Family recommends the creation of a video game rating system fully independent of the video game industry,' added Dr. [David] Walsh. 'It is clear an independent rating system is the only way parents will get the accurate information they need to make wise media choices for their children.'"

In other words: put video games under government control.

The movie biz has enough financial pull and political clout that scumbag politicians would never be able to stamp out the MPAA (an organization with as many problems as the ESRB, but anyway). The game biz isn't in that position. 30+ years after Pong and the Odyssey, video games are still seen as a childrens' pastime. It's exasperating.


The other thing is that the ESRB needs to decide more about what constitues an AO rating versus a M rating, and start to use the AO rating. If GTA can succeed at an AO rating, it could pave the way for future AO releases that would be able to push the boundaries in new ways.

No video game can succeed at retail with an AO rating because no major retailers will carry it. Same deal with NC-17 movies, which no major theater chains will screen.


Besides that, if R* really didn't want the games to be found, they could have easily redone the code there with very little time loss to not work. Locking them out in such a simple style with the entire thing being there, only needing a simple hack to find... Seems kinda fishy. Especially when hackers *have* found things like the extra Bond level and the extra dialouge in KOTOR2. They _had_ to realize that it could be -- and probably would be found.

It doesn't seem fishy at all to me. I assume that R* decided late in the development process not to use the mini-game, and rather than remove the code and risk introducing bugs shortly before submission, it simply programmed around it. I don't smell the conspiracy.


Just wanted to point these two out together. Again, all of the games that have stuff above were found out about. ALl of them were very good sellers. Rockstar knew that GTA would be a big seller too, and they had to know that if the entire code was left in there, there was a very good chance it would be found.

I think it's very possible that no one at R* expected that the mini-game would be unlocked, probably because they were concerned with the PS2 version, and didn't have the down-the-road PC version in mind. Without that PC version, the mini-game would never have been found.

-- Z.

[goatdan]

Who knows if the ESRB will even survive? As I expected, the scumbag politicians are quickly trying to turn their victory into a rout. Here's a statement from a press release issued by the conservative "National Institute for Media and the Family":

"'Now that it has been confirmed that Rockstar Games and its parent company, Take-Two Interactive Software, Inc., failed to disclose to the ESRB the pornographic content of Grand Theft Auto: San Andreas, the National Institute on Media and the Family recommends the creation of a video game rating system fully independent of the video game industry,' added Dr. [David] Walsh. 'It is clear an independent rating system is the only way parents will get the accurate information they need to make wise media choices for their children.'"

In other words: put video games under government control.

Yes, but on the other hand people a government sponsored video game ratings system would destroy the industry. Rating games any differently than what the ESRB does would be extremely expensive, and would demolish the industry.

The industry currently sells a lot of games. And a lot of games sold means a lot of tax money.

Lightly masked Republican organizations like the above won't be able to take easily over because of that...


The movie biz has enough financial pull and political clout that scumbag politicians would never be able to stamp out the MPAA (an organization with as many problems as the ESRB, but anyway). The game biz isn't in that position. 30+ years after Pong and the Odyssey, video games are still seen as a childrens' pastime. It's exasperating.

That is very exasperating, and I agree... but I think the game industry could have the same amount of pull as the movie industry does. They just haven't had to use it yet.


No video game can succeed at retail with an AO rating because no major retailers will carry it. Same deal with NC-17 movies, which no major theater chains will screen.

If delivery methods such as Steam become popular, and if the game sells tons of copies as a result of the exposure, I think that it might very well be able to succeed.


It doesn't seem fishy at all to me. I assume that R* decided late in the development process not to use the mini-game, and rather than remove the code and risk introducing bugs shortly before submission, it simply programmed around it. I don't smell the conspiracy.

I don't know... It seems very fishy / publicity stunty to me. Maybe I'm wrong. One thing is for certain though -- we'll never get the true story from R*.


I think it's very possible that no one at R* expected that the mini-game would be unlocked, probably because they were concerned with the PS2 version, and didn't have the down-the-road PC version in mind. Without that PC version, the mini-game would never have been found.

Again, I'm not so sure. In this thread it was mentioned that the games can be unlocked with a GameShark and that therefore R* is considering legal action against them. I think that eventually, someone would screwed around enough with it to find it. Aren't the GoldenEye levels only accessable with a GameShark, and wasn't that how they were discovered?

[poe]

I think it's very possible that no one at R* expected that the mini-game would be unlocked, probably because they were concerned with the PS2 version, and didn't have the down-the-road PC version in mind. Without that PC version, the mini-game would never have been found.

-- Z.

I don't believe that. People shortly after the PS2 was released knew *something* was there, having found unused text and textures. I think even without the X-Box/PC versions, we would have seen this anyway, just probably another year from now.

On some level, I'm hoping they expand the AO definition: per the ESRB, there's almost no difference between an M and an AO game. They mention nudity in the 'AO' entry, but have thus far left God of War an 'M' title.

There is also no consideration given for religious material in games. SMT: Nocture features benevolent religious figures in antagonistic roles, and primal evil forces depicted as allies. I consider that a lot more mature, and more questionable to be exposing kids to than a g-string and the word 'fuck', but it's not something the ESRB cares to tell parents about.

If AO starts seeing reasonable use, I'm fine with that. There will always be retailers to stock AO games (I can pretty easily find AO versions of Singles and Leisure Suit Larry), and Walmart, Best Buy, and the likes will probably cave to consumer demand and start stocking AO titles in stores rather than see a guaranteed best-seller distributed exclusively by their major competitors, like Amazon.

[Push Upstairs]

I wish there was a way to go through some proper "channels" and blast the government and all those who made a huge deal about the game because of thier lack of concern over the violence in the game.

Shooting cops in the head is fine for little 12yr old Jimmy but as soon as their is some interactive dry-humping its a sin.

Frankly the ESRB should have stuck to thier guns and kept the M rating..nothing in those "sex scenes" qualifies as porn. I wish them the best and i hope that the ignorant government keeps thier hands off the game industry.

[zmweasel]

That is very exasperating, and I agree... but I think the game industry could have the same amount of pull as the movie industry does. They just haven't had to use it yet.

If the game industry had any pull, it would've quickly organized a spirited defense of Rockstar and clearly explain why this hack shouldn't have changed the M rating. Instead, Rockstar got caught in a stupid lie, and the ESRB flushed its credibility down the toidey.

The game industry has been Congress's bitch for, what, 12 years now? You'd think Lieberman and the other toads would've gone back to blaming comic books for damaging America's youth by now.


If delivery methods such as Steam become popular, and if the game sells tons of copies as a result of the exposure, I think that it might very well be able to succeed.

I don't see console manufacturers starting the transition from optical media to online delivery anytime this decade, especially not the well-founded industry concerns about the ease of piracy when downloadable data and mass-storage devices are involved. The Xbox had a hard drive for downloadable content, and look what the hackers did with it. Same with the PS2's HDD.


Again, I'm not so sure. In this thread it was mentioned that the games can be unlocked with a GameShark and that therefore R* is considering legal action against them. I think that eventually, someone would screwed around enough with it to find it. Aren't the GoldenEye levels only accessable with a GameShark, and wasn't that how they were discovered?

I believe the GoldenEye level was discovered after the game was dumped to PC, not with a GameShark. In addition, that content was discovered, what, six or seven years after the game's release?

As for the PS2 Action Replay codes, those came about after the PC hackers figured out where to look in the San Andreas program code, most of which was presumably the same across all versions.

-- Z.

[Daria]

If RockStar's going to alter the game content anyway for an M rating, I wonder if they'd bother to release a version tht deserves the AO rating with playable versions of the minigames.

Probably not, but that would be kinda interesting if they did. They've gotten all this hype for it now.

[TheSmirk]

Again, I'm not so sure. In this thread it was mentioned that the games can be unlocked with a GameShark and that therefore R* is considering legal action against them. I think that eventually, someone would screwed around enough with it to find it. Aren't the GoldenEye levels only accessable with a GameShark, and wasn't that how they were discovered?

Seriously? They are going after gameshark? LOL LOL

What a bunch of dopes R* are! Gameshark didn't make the content, R* did. Gameshark didn't leave the content on the game media, R* did. Same can be said for the mod creators.

If they are going ahead with this, I think it sounds more like a "we're SOOOO edgy" stunt that backfired fully in their face and now they are trying to take anyone else down with them they can. (And make up for some of the revenue loss via litagation)

[l_lamb]

Blockbuster stores got an email at about 7pm central telling everyone to pull all rental, new and used retail, and even the strategy guides off the shelf. Glad I've already gotten ahold of both console versions.

The fact that the game was already rated "M - Mature 17+" and contains a scene that's less graphic than probably any R-Rated movie means to me that the original rating was correct. The issue comes from the fact that there is no legal obligation for retailers to verify the age of the person buying the game, like there is for R-rated and above movies. Blockbuster's system is set up to flag R-rated movies, unrated movies, and M-rated games (they don't carry NC-17 movies or Ao games). A customer opening an account can override that step if they choose. Items purchased by people without accounts are automatically flagged. Most major retailers have a similar program in use, but there's no legal ramifications if the retailer doesn't abide by their own policies. Selling R-rated movies or tickets to those movies can get the seller arrested, and that seems to be enough to keep the government out of the ratings process. It seens a small priceto pay to let the government control the sale of the games rather than let them get involved in the content side.

I worked for TRU back when the PS1 Tiger Woods PGA 99 came out and we did pull all copies and send them back. The new version had "v.2" printed on the top seal and I believe elsewhere (I only have the first version).

[thegreatescape]

I'd say any legal action against gameshark and such companies is more a damage control/pass the buck exercise than a concerted effort for compensation. I wouldnt expect R* to follow through with it unless somehow the media attention doesnt die down. That said, im not a lawyer, so who knows ;)




Yes, but on the other hand people a government sponsored video game ratings system would destroy the industry. Rating games any differently than what the ESRB does would be extremely expensive, and would demolish the industry.

Australia has a government funded classification system since 1994, and while the Australian development industy is fairly small, its been relatively unharmed. Several games have been banned, but this can be more attributed to the lack of an equivalent of an AO rating here (where GTA:SA gets its rating changed to a higher level, in Aus there is no higher level so it will be banned from sale). The Australian Film and Literature Classification board charges anywhere from $360 Au to $590 Au to have a game classified for rating.

The doomsday predictions of a government sponsored ratings system seem a little over edge, but it could be because Im only slightly familiar with U.S politics...