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RCM
08-06-2005, 08:48 PM
According to the August issue of Gamepro Nokia is readying the N-Gage 2. It's mentioned on page 26. Anybody hear about this? I wonder if it's true. If this info is 100% accurate i'm shocked.

THE ONE, THE ONLY- RCM

UPDATE:

Check out the link for what may be the NG2. Looks pretty cool to me. http://www.engadget.com/entry/1234000650043915/

Cmtz
08-06-2005, 08:51 PM
According to the August issue of Gamepro Nokia is readying the N-Gage 2. It's mentioned on page 26. Anybody hear about this? I wonder if it's true. If this info is 100% accurate i'm shocked.

THE ONE, THE ONLY- RCM

I think they are still thinking of cellphone earnings instead of portable game earnings. So if the ngage earns more money than their cell phones then I can see this happening.

SPECS: NGAGE 2 = PSP

* OMAP Full Compatibility
* 90-nm CMOS System-on-a-Chip OMAP2420
* 330-MHz Central Core with Floating Point Unit ARM1136JS-F
* 220-MHz Digital Signal Processor for Audio TMS320C55x
* Video Playback and Image Display Imaging Video Accelerator
* VGA 30-fps Encode/Decode Full-Motion Video
* 2D/3D Graphics Accelerator with SIMD Co-Processor PowerVR MBX with VGP
* TBDR (Tile Based Deferred Rendering)
* 200Mhz clock speed
* 640x480 VGA Resolution
* 360Mpixels, 2xOverdraw = 720Mpixels, 3xOverdraw = 1.08Gpixels
* ITC™ - PowerVR Internal True Colour - 32-Bit Blending and Depth Test Precision Independent from Buffer Depth
* FSAA4Free™ - Supersampling Full-Screen Anti-Aliasing With No Performance Lose
* DOT3 Per-Pixel Lighting Support
* Spherical Harmonics Lighting Support
* Bilinear, Trilinear, Anisotropic Texture Filtering Support
* Vertex Shader 1.1 Programmability with Skinning
* Curved Surface Processing with Fractional Tessellation and Support for Differing Levels-of-Detail on Neighboring Patch Edges
* PVR-TC (PowerVR Texture Compression)
* Multi-Texturing
* Fully Programmable 3D T&L (Transform & Lighting)
* Over 2.5M-tri/sec

stuffedmonkey
08-06-2005, 09:35 PM
"This time it's not like talking into the side of a taco - we swear"

Muscelli
08-06-2005, 10:20 PM
why are they doing this.. Wasnt ngage a flop?

thegreatescape
08-06-2005, 11:13 PM
It may have been somewhat of a flop, but youve really gotta admire nokias determination to get the N-Gage brand afloat. A silver version of the N-Gage QD should be out pretty soon also.

unbroken
08-06-2005, 11:15 PM
wow that thing looks amazing. they better make it, ill be the first one in line to buy it, i dont even care the price.

PDorr3
08-06-2005, 11:18 PM
this is good news, hopefuly the ngage qd will come down in price, and then I can finaly collect for this system as it has some games I really wanna tryout.

swlovinist
08-06-2005, 11:39 PM
I think that Nokia is in a way taking the Microsoft approach, although I know that they are two completely different companies. Nokia has probably made a shitload off the cell phone business. The N Gage was probably a test market attempt. Yes it failed very very bad, but overall, I think that even the most harsh critics could see what Nokia was TRYING to do. I too, give them credit for still standing behind such a failed product and attempting to release a couple of games. The N Gage 2 has the chance of stealing some market of the portable gaming. They are definately in it for the long haul. If Nokia could come up with a decent non taco cell phone that could also play decent console friendly games, then they could be on to something...that doesnt suck!

classicb
08-07-2005, 01:39 AM
Nokia is the sleeping giant in the handheld market. their current plans to expand the N-Gage line to all Nokia Smartphones will expand their users from 1.5 million to 25 million. now those are numbers that Sony only dreams about. It seems their new plan is to have N-Gage games availble across a large line of Nokia phones and then have a N-Gage model that has a more video game designed layout.

Nokia seem very determined to get into the mobile gaming market since I'm sure they're not making any money with the current N-Gage.

I look forward to the N-Gage 2 but only being able to download games is going to kill the collector inside me.

BTW those images have been out since E3 but I'm not surprised that nobody noticed untill now. For people who missed Nokia's E3 coverage:

http://web.n-gage.com/e3/

squidblatt
08-07-2005, 08:48 AM
I'm waiting for RIFS to get released before I think about getting an N-Gage. Or until I need a new cell.

Diatribal Deity
08-07-2005, 07:06 PM
For years Nokia has been sitting on large piles of money. They are constantly looking for investment opportunities and like Microsoft and the Xbox know that their initial product may need to serve as a loss leader in order to drum up future interest. You need to start somewhere after all.

RCM
08-07-2005, 08:13 PM
For years Nokia has been sitting on large piles of money. They are constantly looking for investment opportunities and like Microsoft and the Xbox know that their initial product may need to serve as a loss leader in order to drum up future interest. You need to start somewhere after all.

True, but there's a huge difference between N-Gage and Xbox. Xbox has been gaining mindshare and praise in the industry and gaming public. N-Gage has never been looked at as serious competition. I'm not sure I want an N-Gage even when it drops to a super low price.

THE ONE, THE ONLY- RCM

Slimedog
08-07-2005, 08:22 PM
this is good news, hopefuly the ngage qd will come down in price, and then I can finaly collect for this system as it has some games I really wanna tryout.

From Nokia's site, with a standard service contract with T-Mobile, they paid me $50 to take the Ngage. -$50 is definitely the cheapest game system I've ever owned. Plus my company pays my cell bill every month.

Muscelli
08-07-2005, 10:11 PM
the dech demo is pretty nice...

classicb
08-09-2005, 08:51 PM
I was thinking about this topic again and I thought of other systems that failed and just gave up (3D0 and the M2 come to mind along with NEC and the Turbo Grafx stuff and of course Sega).

Is Nokia ever willing to quite? It seems crazy that a company is willing to support a system that has only sold at most 1.5 million units all the way through to the end of 2006 (at least thats what they say). Nokia of course has crazy amounts of money to spend on trial and error which I don't think most companies have had except maybe Microsoft.

Sometimes I just don't get it because the video game industry is so competitve and the portable market continues to get crowded why do they even try? Is the upside that great do they expect to completly take over? I actually think they do.

At any rate if this N-Gage 2 ever gets released (and I hope it does) it has to be one of the biggest suprise succesors in the history of vidoe games.

Slimedog
08-09-2005, 11:26 PM
I have hope. Say what you will about the NGage on launch, but Nokia really seems to listen to the criticisms leveled against it and has taken steps to rectify weaknesses in the system. I really do love the NGage now that they finally got their act together and I'm confident that a next generation NGage could be successful. Sadly, if it goes download only, I won't be following.

poopnes
08-10-2005, 12:14 AM
Sometimes I just don't get it because the video game industry is so competitve and the portable market continues to get crowded why do they even try? Is the upside that great do they expect to completly take over? I actually think they do.

classib: Do you use your QD as your cell? I do. It's a completely capable cell that gets awesome battery life and reception. The simple fact that it gets taken everywhere has completely destroyed my need to carry any other portable with me. The sad part is I don't play anything but classic GameBoy games on it though. Super Goboy was totally worth the $6-ish I spent on it. I actually hate having to carry around the game cards so I stopped doing it. A 512MB MMC card is all I need.

As someone else said, Nokia really seems to be listening to their very small group of N-Gage fanboys. The QD wasn't perfect but it was a huge improvement over the original. I am totally looking foward to the next N-Gage and will buy it the moment it arrives. The lack of collectabilty (i.e. downloads only) might hurt the system in some people's eyes, but I actually use this device everyday and the less I have to carry around to enjoy it, the better.

classicb
08-10-2005, 12:27 AM
whoa wait first of all I am one of the few N-Gage fanboys. I have every US released game so far. I'm surprised at Nokia in a good way. I think they are sitting on a good thing but then I thought Sega was too with the Dreamcast and they gave up on that.

I was just saying it seem crazy given past companies actions that they keep suporting it. I'm all for them supporting it since its one of my favorite handhelds if not my favorite.

Oh and I do use the N-Gage as my cell phone and also have a 512mb card with all kinds of goodies on it. I think its "the" portable system and even though I'm surprised I'm glad Nokia is sticking with it. I know most companies wouldn't.

poopnes
08-10-2005, 12:15 PM
whoa wait first of all I am one of the few N-Gage fanboys.

Eh, that came out wrong. I knew all that. I remember when you had that pic in your sig that showed you playing your QD. I was just wondering if you used your QD as your cell. The rest of the rant wasn't directed at you at all.

Oobgarm
08-10-2005, 12:19 PM
I think I'm the only person on the face of the Earth that actually uses the original N-Taco as their cell phone. Seriously.

It's a much better phone than the QD is, IMO.

PDorr3
08-10-2005, 12:25 PM
At any rate if this N-Gage 2 ever gets released (and I hope it does) it has to be one of the biggest suprise succesors in the history of vidoe games.


This indeed will be a huge suprise, its kind of like if a Game.com2 came out.

Cmosfm
08-10-2005, 12:49 PM
I really wish Nokia would stop trying so hard, nothing they do will revive the N-Gage, the name is stuck in people's heads as "failure" and "worthless".

I still want a cheap N Gage, Nokia, stop pushing this shit so I can get me a 20.00 Taco gawdammit!

classicb
08-10-2005, 12:54 PM
whoa wait first of all I am one of the few N-Gage fanboys.

Eh, that came out wrong. I knew all that. I remember when you had that pic in your sig that showed you playing your QD. I was just wondering if you used your QD as your cell. The rest of the rant wasn't directed at you at all.

oh ok I thought you were trying to sell me on how great the N-Gage is.

I'll also say though the one thing I don't like about using it as my cell phone is I'm a little harder on my cell phones than my portables. My QD has been through some shit I'm happy its still in one piece. :) I'd like to pick up a Taco version and another QD someday just for the collection since mine is kind of beat to hell. Still very impressed with the durabilty of this thing.

classicb
08-10-2005, 12:57 PM
I really wish Nokia would stop trying so hard, nothing they do will revive the N-Gage, the name is stuck in people's heads as "failure" and "worthless".

I still want a cheap N Gage, Nokia, stop pushing this shit so I can get me a 20.00 Taco gawdammit!

that's kind of interesting since I do think the name has a bad reputation. I wonder if Nokia will rename it the second time around.

I'd like a $20 Taco too.

Jagasian
08-10-2005, 02:06 PM
Vampent needs to get their GBA emulator up to shape for the N-Gage 2:
http://www.vampent.com/emu.htm

The current version is very rough around the edges. Another bug that bugs me about Vampents GB/GBC emulator is that if you play with sound enabled and you accept an incoming call, the emulator will crash. poopnes, does Super GoBoy have the same bug? I might have to switch over to Super GoBoy, unless Vampent fixes the bag ASAP. It is simply unacceptable to lose all of your progress in a game because you get an incoming call.

Slimedog
08-10-2005, 02:15 PM
I really wish Nokia would stop trying so hard, nothing they do will revive the N-Gage, the name is stuck in people's heads as "failure" and "worthless".

I still want a cheap N Gage, Nokia, stop pushing this shit so I can get me a 20.00 Taco gawdammit!

that's kind of interesting since I do think the name has a bad reputation. I wonder if Nokia will rename it the second time around.

I'd like a $20 Taco too.

I would actually be surprised if Nokia didn't change the name for the next one. That would help shake the stigma of the early days of the NGage. Any diehard fans they have earned since then would be savy enough to figure out what the next ngage is without it having the name "NGage". Numbering systems is a fairly recent convention so I don't think it would throw anybody who cared.

But I shudder to think of what their marketing department would come up with for a followup name. Maybe "Nokia EXTREME FREESTYLE UNLEASHED!!!"

poopnes
08-12-2005, 02:22 AM
Vampent needs to get their GBA emulator up to shape for the N-Gage 2:
http://www.vampent.com/emu.htm

The current version is very rough around the edges. Another bug that bugs me about Vampents GB/GBC emulator is that if you play with sound enabled and you accept an incoming call, the emulator will crash. poopnes, does Super GoBoy have the same bug? I might have to switch over to Super GoBoy, unless Vampent fixes the bag ASAP. It is simply unacceptable to lose all of your progress in a game because you get an incoming call.

I was planning on doing a full write-up and review of Super GoBoy and posting it here on DP, but I just haven't got around to it. Maybe someday. I have not used Vampent's GBX emu at all. I actually totally forgot they had one. So I can't really compare the two. I can say that Super GoBoy is not without its faults, but I am not disappointed in the $6 I spent on it. I've only had it crash once--and it crashed the whole phone (restarted itself). I think the unit just ran out of memory (a lot of stuff was running in the background). It does have issues with the sound where I'll get a "Media Server Error" message and then the phone will not play any sounds besides ringtones and message alert tones (this usually happens when I'm switching between programs alot). SGB does not like you to hit the end call button. The program will still run fine but when you go back to to it it only registers one button press at time, i.e. you can't run and jump or move a block while rotating it. It seems to be fine if you hit the menu button though, but I'm so used to hitting the end call button that I always forget. There are save states and an autosave when you exit the game, but it does handle battery backup. Also trying to play a GBC ONLY game is rough--very slow. GBC games that are backwards compatible are decent. I really should do a write-up on it because I have a lot more to say about it and found very little information on it before I bought it. It has its faults but it's a very stable decent emulator. I've spent a lot of time playing Warioland 2, Tetris DX, Final Fantasy Adventure, and Dr. Mario. All 4 are extremely playable. OK I've wrote enough. =)

poopnes
08-12-2005, 02:22 AM
Vampent needs to get their GBA emulator up to shape for the N-Gage 2:
http://www.vampent.com/emu.htm

The current version is very rough around the edges. Another bug that bugs me about Vampents GB/GBC emulator is that if you play with sound enabled and you accept an incoming call, the emulator will crash. poopnes, does Super GoBoy have the same bug? I might have to switch over to Super GoBoy, unless Vampent fixes the bag ASAP. It is simply unacceptable to lose all of your progress in a game because you get an incoming call.

I was planning on doing a full write-up and review of Super GoBoy and posting it here on DP, but I just haven't got around to it. Maybe someday. I have not used Vampent's GBX emu at all. I actually totally forgot they had one. So I can't really compare the two. I can say that Super GoBoy is not without its faults, but I am not disappointed in the $6 I spent on it. I've only had it crash once--and it crashed the whole phone (restarted itself). I think the unit just ran out of memory (a lot of stuff was running in the background). It does have issues with the sound where I'll get a "Media Server Error" message and then the phone will not play any sounds besides ringtones and message alert tones (this usually happens when I'm switching between programs alot). SGB does not like you to hit the end call button. The program will still run fine but when you go back to to it it only registers one button press at time, i.e. you can't run and jump or move a block while rotating it. It seems to be fine if you hit the menu button though, but I'm so used to hitting the end call button that I always forget. There are save states and an autosave when you exit the game, but it does handle battery backup. Also trying to play a GBC ONLY game is rough--very slow. GBC games that are backwards compatible are decent. I really should do a write-up on it because I have a lot more to say about it and found very little information on it before I bought it. It has its faults but it's a very stable decent emulator. I've spent a lot of time playing Warioland 2, Tetris DX, Final Fantasy Adventure, and Dr. Mario. All 4 are extremely playable. OK I've wrote enough. =)

Jagasian
08-13-2005, 12:17 PM
It sounds like Super GoBoy is allot slower than Vampent's GBX emulator. GBC games run at full speed on my N-Gage QD. There are 3 made comlpaints I have about Vampent's emulator:
1. ROM browser can't quickly cycle through hundreds of games
2. crashes when accepting an incoming call and emu sound is enabled
3. sound emulation is slightly off tune in some games

poopnes
08-16-2005, 11:46 AM
It sounds like Super GoBoy is allot slower than Vampent's GBX emulator. GBC games run at full speed on my N-Gage QD. There are 3 made comlpaints I have about Vampent's emulator:
1. ROM browser can't quickly cycle through hundreds of games
2. crashes when accepting an incoming call and emu sound is enabled
3. sound emulation is slightly off tune in some games

Tried out the Demo of vBoy last night when I was at work. It was like night and day. vBoy is 100x better than Super GoBoy. The speed is amazing. The sound is better. Just, wow. I really thought that SGB was great for the simple fact that it was a capable GBX emu on my little 'ol QD, but vBoy just blows it out of the water. But man I don't want to have to spend another $10 on an emulator. I broke my vow of never paying for a product that's basically made for piracy when I bought SGB and here I am wanting to do it again. I must resist!

Jagasian
08-16-2005, 06:17 PM
Tried out the Demo of vBoy last night when I was at work. It was like night and day. vBoy is 100x better than Super GoBoy. The speed is amazing. The sound is better. Just, wow. I really thought that SGB was great for the simple fact that it was a capable GBX emu on my little 'ol QD, but vBoy just blows it out of the water. But man I don't want to have to spend another $10 on an emulator. I broke my vow of never paying for a product that's basically made for piracy when I bought SGB and here I am wanting to do it again. I must resist!

It sure does make an N-Gage worth owning, doesn't it? The entire GB, SGB, and GBC library is quite large and filled with great games. Make sure to make a post at the vBoy forums asking to have the "crash on call when sound is enabled" bug fixed. If it was fixed, I'd be a happy camper. I've bugged them about it already, but they haven't released a fix yet. They have 3 emulators, which they try to update 1 of the 3, once a month. So it cycles, vNES, vBoy, and vSun. So it will be a long time before they get back to updating vBoy. I just want to make sure that they fix the bug when vBoys next update comes.

By the way, I wouldn't bother with vNES or vSun. The NES and SNES have great games, but their resolutions don't fit the N-Gage's small screen and they also run really slow. The Gameboy's resolution is strictly smaller than the N-Gage's, so the screen fits perfectly, with room leftover for custom borders (I just disable the border). Also, the Gameboy is easy enough to emulate at roughly full speed.

Jumpman Jr.
08-16-2005, 10:18 PM
Those pictures of it make it look very nice. Espessially the image on the screen. However, I'm not sure why everybody (not just with video games, but with everything) is trying to make everything so small.
This thing looks ridiculously tiny... doesn't it?

Jagasian
08-17-2005, 09:10 AM
Those pictures of it make it look very nice. Espessially the image on the screen. However, I'm not sure why everybody (not just with video games, but with everything) is trying to make everything so small.
This thing looks ridiculously tiny... doesn't it?

It needs to be small enough and lightweight enough to comfortably be kept in your pocket at all times. Of course, this does make it difficult to be able to hold it while playing games. The PSP and DS are the antithesis of this. They are big, heavy, and not comfortable to have on your person at all times. This ruins their ability to be used as portable gaming devices, as at their size, they might as well be the size of a laptop, since they don't fit in a pocket.

The Gameboy Micro looks like it might even fit in your little change pocket that is in your right pants pocket. Now that would be nice! You could have it with you and forget you had it in your pocket :)

zektor
08-17-2005, 11:46 PM
I'm surprised at how many people think the N-Gage is a flop. Flop for who? Nokia or YOU? Don't even think that way until you try it yourself. I really like the unit honestly. It can do so many things (other than of course being your cell phone) like play movies, music, emulate a few classic game systems, and so forth. Not to mention the fact that it is (in my opinion) the most portable game system out right now. The QD is small, built very well, has a great screen, and does so much. Gamestop sells a pre-paid version of the Qd for $99 now. You just can't beat that.

If a new N-Gage emerges, I will be one of those first in line for it, regardless of the cost. And that is saying alot as I am the one that is almost always broke! :)

Jagasian
08-18-2005, 09:07 AM
I'm surprised at how many people think the N-Gage is a flop. Flop for who? Nokia or YOU?

Nokia should have put more effort into developing and promoting Gameboy emulation. The N-Gage should have been compatible with the GB, SGB, GBC, and GBA games. Then people would realize the value of the device. However, N-Gage specific games suck and are few and far between. I am still waiting on the Rifts game, as it looks like it will actually be worth owning.

Slimedog
08-18-2005, 10:59 AM
I'm surprised at how many people think the N-Gage is a flop. Flop for who? Nokia or YOU?

Nokia should have put more effort into developing and promoting Gameboy emulation. The N-Gage should have been compatible with the GB, SGB, GBC, and GBA games. Then people would realize the value of the device. However, N-Gage specific games suck and are few and far between. I am still waiting on the Rifts game, as it looks like it will actually be worth owning.

First off, promoting Gameboy emulation on your system would be ILLEAGLE. Making it compatible with Gameboy would have just made it a Gameboy phone. If Nintendo thought that would have made any money, they would have done that years ago. It also tends to go against Nintendo's philosophy of making dedicated game machines. Licensing Gameboy technology is something that Nintendo would probably not allow since they make all their own hardware. Even if they did, the fees involved in the licensing would pretty much wipe out any profits generated from shifting a few extra units.

The reason the NGage exists is that Nokia thought there was a market for mobile games online. This is a market that Gameboy is certainly not aimed at. Whether that market exists or can be tapped by the current generation of technology is a matter of debate.

Jagasian
08-18-2005, 01:41 PM
First off, promoting Gameboy emulation on your system would be ILLEAGLE.


Why would it be illegal? Is making an IBM compatible PC illegal? You don't know what you are talking about.



Making it compatible with Gameboy would have just made it a Gameboy phone. If Nintendo thought that would have made any money, they would have done that years ago. It also tends to go against Nintendo's philosophy of making dedicated game machines.


So you argue that if it would have made money Nintendo would have done it already, but then you argue that Nintendo really wouldn't want to do such a thing? You contradict yourself in two sentences. The truth is that you can't just enter the mobile phone industry at the drop of a hat. It isn't that easy, and Nintendo knows nothing about making mobile phones.



Licensing Gameboy technology is something that Nintendo would probably not allow since they make all their own hardware. Even if they did, the fees involved in the licensing would pretty much wipe out any profits generated from shifting a few extra units.


Why would Gameboy technology need to be licensed? People have reverse engineered plenty of information to be able to write highly compatible Gameboy emulators... and they have been doing this for years!





The reason the NGage exists is that Nokia thought there was a market for mobile games online. This is a market that Gameboy is certainly not aimed at. Whether that market exists or can be tapped by the current generation of technology is a matter of debate.

Vampent's vBoy emulator, which emulates the Gameboy and Gameboy Color is proof that the current N-Gage is more than capable of emulating Gameboy games. GBA emulation, however, cannot be done at a satisfactory speed on the current N-Gage, but the N-Gage 2 is more than powerful enough to run GBA games at full speed via software based emulation.

Making your company's product compatible with other people's software is not illegal and it is a good idea, as demonstrated by the "IBM compatible" PC market.

classicb
08-18-2005, 02:23 PM
Making your company's product compatible with other people's software is not illegal and it is a good idea, as demonstrated by the "IBM compatible" PC market.

I think a better comparison would be people who make bongs and pipes to smoke weed which are legal but the weed is not.

and if you think for a second that Nintendo would be ok with this you've been hitting the bong too hard.

slapdash
08-18-2005, 02:23 PM
First off, promoting Gameboy emulation on your system would be ILLEAGLE.

Why would it be illegal? Is making an IBM compatible PC illegal? You don't know what you are talking about.



Licensing Gameboy technology is something that Nintendo would probably not allow since they make all their own hardware. Even if they did, the fees involved in the licensing would pretty much wipe out any profits generated from shifting a few extra units.


Why would Gameboy technology need to be licensed? People have reverse engineered plenty of information to be able to write highly compatible Gameboy emulators... and they have been doing this for years!

The problem is that the Digital Millenium Copyright Act and some court cases, reverse engineering is becoming more dangerous. Now, a hobbyist can get away with it because they can stay under the radar, and Nintendo couldn't prove that there'd be much financial damage. But a company like Nokia? You'd better believe that Nintendo would be all over them. It's borderline illegal these days, and I'm not sure which way a judge would swing on it -- ten years ago or more it would have been easy to get away with it as long as you'd done the reverse engineering "properly" (yes, there's an actual "science", of sorts, to it.

And even if they won in court, it would cost them a lot of money. End result? Not worth it to Nokia. So I doubt you'll ever see an official Nokia Gameboy emulator.

Jagasian
08-18-2005, 06:25 PM
Making your company's product compatible with other people's software is not illegal and it is a good idea, as demonstrated by the "IBM compatible" PC market.

I think a better comparison would be people who make bongs and pipes to smoke weed which are legal but the weed is not.

and if you think for a second that Nintendo would be ok with this you've been hitting the bong too hard.

So software is illegal? How would it be illegal to own software? How would it be illegal to run said software?

classicb
08-18-2005, 06:33 PM
Making your company's product compatible with other people's software is not illegal and it is a good idea, as demonstrated by the "IBM compatible" PC market.

I think a better comparison would be people who make bongs and pipes to smoke weed which are legal but the weed is not.

and if you think for a second that Nintendo would be ok with this you've been hitting the bong too hard.

So software is illegal? How would it be illegal to own software? How would it be illegal to run said software?

maybe I'm missing your point but GBA software comes on a GBA cartridge. Did you want a slot for it on the N-Gage?

Or are you saying that they should team up with the big N and charge for Rom downloads to the N-Gage.

But as it stands right now I'm pretty sure it's illegal to download free GB roms and play them on your N-Gage even though the emulator is legal.

Jagasian
08-19-2005, 12:49 PM
maybe I'm missing your point but GBA software comes on a GBA cartridge. Did you want a slot for it on the N-Gage?


A built in GBA slot is one option but it would increase the system's size, or you could simply package the N-Gage with a device that lets you rip GBA carts, just as, for example, the iPod comes with iTunes, which lets you rip the contents of your music CDs. Perfectly legal, and it has great utility to the user: all of your music in one tiny device. Similarly the N-Gage 2 could promise all of your GBA games, on one tiny MMC card. http://www.linker4u.com/ already sells such a device for roughly $15. It is a GBA slot that hooks up to USB, and lets you rip your own GBA carts.




But as it stands right now I'm pretty sure it's illegal to download free GB roms and play them on your N-Gage even though the emulator is legal.

It is illegal to break copyright law. Downloading free GB roms does not necessarily mean you are breaking copyright law, especially if the GB rom is licensed to be freely copied, as is the case with the hundreds of GBA games here:
http://www.pdroms.de/roms.php?system=Gameboy%20Advance&typ=Games&first=0

What strikes me is how people still don't get it. The entire IBM PC clone thing in the 80s and early 90s. The MP3 craze during the late 90s... and yet people still think that there is something illegal about making your platform compatible with other people's software (IBM compatible, GBA emulation) and people still think that it is illegal to convert your software into more compatible formats (mp3, ripping GBA games)?

I guess Nintendo's propaganda is very strong with many people here. They claimed emulation was illegal, but then sold people emulated games (the classic NES series on the GBA). What is funny is that Pocket NES was doing full fledged NES emulation years before Nintendo got around to the classic NES series. The original Zelda on the GBA? Thanks Nintendo, but I already bought Zelda for the NES and downloaded a free NES emulator for the GBA years ago. Too little, too late.

slapdash
08-19-2005, 02:27 PM
It is illegal to break copyright law. Downloading free GB roms does not necessarily mean you are breaking copyright law, especially if the GB rom is licensed to be freely copied

Quite right. This is what they call a "non-infringing use". The problem is that since the DMCA, it's been harder to legally defend hardware OR software even WITH "non-infringing uses".


What strikes me is how people still don't get it. The entire IBM PC clone thing in the 80s and early 90s. The MP3 craze during the late 90s... and yet people still think that there is something illegal about making your platform compatible with other people's software (IBM compatible, GBA emulation) and people still think that it is illegal to convert your software into more compatible formats (mp3, ripping GBA games)?

Again, copyright law has been changing quite a bit... Certain things are still a gray area, but the DMCA has been pushing things AWAY from that. Some things ARE in fact illegal now, or at least litigateable.


I guess Nintendo's propaganda is very strong with many people here. They claimed emulation was illegal, but then sold people emulated games (the classic NES series on the GBA).

In the "old days", emulators were legal and copyrighted ROMs were illegal. Pretty simple. But, to emulate a system with an "exec" ROM or BIOS can, under the DMCA and recent legal precedents, be illegal.

In essence, not everything has shaken out yet, and it will over time. But both sides of this argument have been right on some things and wrong on others, the way I see it. You're taking an optimistic view that Nokia could make some kind of GBA reader and emulator legally, and despite the DMCA, there's a chance you're right. But it's also shaky ground, and Nintendo does protect their content, and would -- almost certainly -- be able to prevent Nokia from doing it, whether by proving it's illegal, or outspending Nokia's willingness to pursue it in courts even if it isn't proved to be illegal. Hence, it would not be realistic for Nokia to bother.

Jagasian
08-19-2005, 06:01 PM
In essence, not everything has shaken out yet, and it will over time. But both sides of this argument have been right on some things and wrong on others, the way I see it. You're taking an optimistic view that Nokia could make some kind of GBA reader and emulator legally, and despite the DMCA, there's a chance you're right. But it's also shaky ground, and Nintendo does protect their content, and would -- almost certainly -- be able to prevent Nokia from doing it, whether by proving it's illegal, or outspending Nokia's willingness to pursue it in courts even if it isn't proved to be illegal. Hence, it would not be realistic for Nokia to bother.

The GBA does not implement any form of copy protection aka DRM, and therefore the DMCA can't be put into effect to prevent people from selling a device that lets you rip your own carts. This is what separates CD music ripping software from DVD movie transcoding software. The encryption used by DVD movies is what allowed for the invocation of the DMCA, as transcoding a DVD movie involved circumventing a DVD's DRM. Furthermore, the DMCA makes exceptions for circumventing copy protection when system interoperability is the intent. Making an N-Gage 2 compatible with GBA software would fall under that category. Nintendo would have no legal grounds to stand on, and Nokia is a far wealthier company than Nintendo. Hence if Nintendo wanted a fight, they might not just lose, but they might also be subject to expensive counter litigation causing their already weakened company to go belly up.

Nintendo is no longer the big and powerful giant that it was in the late 80s and early 90s.

zektor
08-25-2005, 01:21 AM
Bah. This reminds me of a conversation I had with my wife's father a few months ago. He had this "great idea" to create a game system that can play every game, for every system, from the beginning of time to date. I tried to explain to him why this can (and will) never happen, but he just didn't get it for some reason.

Bottom line is that nobody is going to make their unit accept games without shaking hands with the other unit. I mean, think of it this way. YOU own a game company that makes System X. System X makes some great games and they sell well. Someone else makes a System Y, and proclaims it plays Sys Y games, AND it can play System X games.....and without your ok on the matter. Smell lawsuit and bankruptcy? Well, getting the ok to do things like this is what will always stop it from happening.

What I am essentially trying to say is that while it may be OK for the average homebrewing Joe to create something like a GBA emulator at home, for the PC (which is pretty much inregulated in a sense), once some major corporation like Nokia, releasing one gaming console that will be available to millions, and including this software...there will be a problem..a lawsuit...and they will not win. Has not history taught us this lesson?

Diatribal Deity
08-25-2005, 08:04 AM
Bah. This reminds me of a conversation I had with my wife's father a few months ago. He had this "great idea" to create a game system that can play every game, for every system, from the beginning of time to date. I tried to explain to him why this can (and will) never happen, but he just didn't get it for some reason.

Bottom line is that nobody is going to make their unit accept games without shaking hands with the other unit. I mean, think of it this way. YOU own a game company that makes System X. System X makes some great games and they sell well. Someone else makes a System Y, and proclaims it plays Sys Y games, AND it can play System X games.....and without your ok on the matter. Smell lawsuit and bankruptcy? Well, getting the ok to do things like this is what will always stop it from happening.

What I am essentially trying to say is that while it may be OK for the average homebrewing Joe to create something like a GBA emulator at home, for the PC (which is pretty much inregulated in a sense), once some major corporation like Nokia, releasing one gaming console that will be available to millions, and including this software...there will be a problem..a lawsuit...and they will not win. Has not history taught us this lesson?

As a matter of fact it has!

"Expansion Module #1 - Atari 2600 Adaptor, retailing at $60. This expansion module allowed Colecovision owners to play all Atari 2600 cartridges. A great marketing strategy, this allowed Coleco to tap in to the Atari user base and also gave them a game library larger than any other gaming system. Atari of course, promptly sued Coleco for $350 million in December of '82, claiming Coleco ripped off propriertary designs to make their compatible expansion module. Coleco countered with a $500 million anti-trust lawsuit that claimed Atari was trying to discourage retailers carrying Atari products from also carrying Coleco. They also charged that Atari created an unfair advantage in the industry when it bought part of Pac-man inventor Namco, and that it violated anti-trust laws as well. Atari's claims remained unproven and dismissed, and both sets of charges were settled out of court by April 1983 when Coleco agreed to pay royalties."

Jagasian
08-25-2005, 08:29 AM
Bottom line is that nobody is going to make their unit accept games without shaking hands with the other unit. I mean, think of it this way. YOU own a game company that makes System X. System X makes some great games and they sell well. Someone else makes a System Y, and proclaims it plays Sys Y games, AND it can play System X games.....and without your ok on the matter. Smell lawsuit and bankruptcy? Well, getting the ok to do things like this is what will always stop it from happening.


The previous poster already mentioned a point proving you wrong. There are also cases where the versions of the Mac were released with IBM PC compatibility. Heck, there is the entire IBM PC compatible industry, which let you run the other guy's games and applications. Before that, the IBM PC was IBM's closed platform, and it cost an arm and a leg to buy an IBM PC. Then Compaq cloned the hardware via reverse engineering, and created a PC that could run all of the games and applications that IBM's could. They really went down crashing and burning in lawsuits... NOT! A more modern example is Cedega (previously known as WineX), which is made to allow MS Windows games to be run on Linux.

There would be no ground for lawsuits as long as compatibility was developed in a way that did not violate intellectual property law. Numerous cases where this has already been done demonstrate how it is profitable and good for the industry.

zektor
08-26-2005, 08:39 PM
Bottom line is that nobody is going to make their unit accept games without shaking hands with the other unit. I mean, think of it this way. YOU own a game company that makes System X. System X makes some great games and they sell well. Someone else makes a System Y, and proclaims it plays Sys Y games, AND it can play System X games.....and without your ok on the matter. Smell lawsuit and bankruptcy? Well, getting the ok to do things like this is what will always stop it from happening.


The previous poster already mentioned a point proving you wrong. There are also cases where the versions of the Mac were released with IBM PC compatibility. Heck, there is the entire IBM PC compatible industry, which let you run the other guy's games and applications. Before that, the IBM PC was IBM's closed platform, and it cost an arm and a leg to buy an IBM PC. Then Compaq cloned the hardware via reverse engineering, and created a PC that could run all of the games and applications that IBM's could. They really went down crashing and burning in lawsuits... NOT! A more modern example is Cedega (previously known as WineX), which is made to allow MS Windows games to be run on Linux.

There would be no ground for lawsuits as long as compatibility was developed in a way that did not violate intellectual property law. Numerous cases where this has already been done demonstrate how it is profitable and good for the industry.

Yeah, but you are talking computers dude. For some odd reason, this type of situation has always been somewhat lax with personal computers.Now, dedicated gaming consoles are a much different story, whether you want to believe that or not. While it may sound great in theory that the Xbox, for example, would be able to play PS2 games...I do not think Sony would be too happy with that... no matter if just that ends up selling more of their titles. It's all about power, control, domination. Want to play game "X"? Well, you need our system to do it. And rightfully so. It is business as usual anyhow.

I was actually thinking of the Colecovision expansion module when I posted "has not history taught us a lesson?". Nobody wants a legal battle nowadays.