Random Sega question?

[cityside75]

I'm sitting here playing my Saturn and I just had a question arise that I thought I'd post here:

Most seem to agree that Sega had initially planned for the Sega to be a 2d powerhouse with "modest" 3d abilities. After seeing Sony's specs on the PSX they went back and added another processor and more 3d power.

Assuming that's the case, Sega's initial decision makes absolutely no sense to me. Here's why: in the early 90's when all of this was taking place, the arcade side of Sega was making almost all of the groundbreaking 3d games. I would dare to say that by that time nearly all of their major arcade properties were 3d or moving in that direction. We know that Sega has always relied on arcade ports as important titles for their home systems, but from the sound of it, the originally planned Saturn would not have been able to run any of their hottest arcade games (Virtua Fighter 2, Daytona, etc), at least not as well as the released Saturn did (and we all know the released Saturn struggled mightily with some of them).

I know some of the Sony-haters out there like to pin a fair amount of the blame for Sega's console demise on Sony, but honestly I can't imagine a worse decision than releasing a system unable to play your best arcade games at anywhere near the same quality. What were they thinking?

Any Sega-experts feel free to set me straight on this one if I'm wrong...

[tonyvortex]

i dont know the answear to this one but i just wanted to throw in my opinion.i think personally the 32 bit era should have been the time when we saw some of the greatest 2 d games.i think 3 d was too rushed and horrible looking.thinking back to all the 3 d games that came out especially in those early 32 bit days of 1995 and 1996 i cant think of any that i enjoy.im amazed looking back at old magazine from then reading the reviews praising these games.i wish there were more games like astal that made it out here in the states.of course i cant really speak about this since i really dont have a large taste for 3 d games anyway.

[cityside75]

i dont know the answear to this one but i just wanted to throw in my opinion.i think personally the 32 bit era should have been the time when we saw some of the greatest 2 d games.i think 3 d was too rushed and horrible looking.thinking back to all the 3 d games that came out especially in those early 32 bit days of 1995 and 1996 i cant think of any that i enjoy.im amazed looking back at old magazine from then reading the reviews praising these games.i wish there were more games like astal that made it out here in the states.of course i cant really speak about this since i really dont have a large taste for 3 d games anyway.



Not to take my own post too off-topic, but I somewhat agree with what you're saying, but at least for me at the time that early 3d looked pretty good, though it really hasn't aged too well. It was more about the realistic looking movement than the sharpness of the textures or the resolution at that time. When 3d was new you didn't notice that stuff as much because it moved so much more realistically.

[Slimedog]

I would tend to agree that they shot themselves in the foot with this design. Also, by using such a distributed architecture they were setting themselves up for a bad reputation. Unless its easy to program for, 3rd party publishers can't be counted on to make quality graphics. The bad looking ports from 3D PS1 games gave them a rep as an underpowered system. And even if their 1st party titles looked amazing, they were fighing an uphill battle against that perception.

[dreamcaster]

Sega decided that the home market wasn't ready for 3D games. With the blunders of 32X and 3DO, and the continuing success of the Mega Drive/Genesis and the Super NES, Sega though that people were happy enough with 2D games, and weren't that interested in 3D titles. Sega thought they should leave 3D to the arcades (where it was only just becoming popular) and focus on making the Saturn the best 2D console it could be.

However, Sony unveiled the mighty polygon-pushing PlayStation X - people were impressed, and then started looking to see what Sega was doing in response. Sega started to worry.

As such, they madly added 3D capabilities to the existing Saturn chipset, making it competitive to the PSX.

In conclusion, it was simply a miscalculation by Sega, and a lucky move by Sony, that things ended up the way they did.

EDIT: Woo! 1000th post!

[Blanka789]

Technically, the Hitachi Dual RISC boards used in the Saturn are supposed to be for 2D gaming (I believe). However, when the Playstation was unveiled and all that talk of polygons and such made the Saturn look weak in comparison. Sega did not have enough time to create a custom chip, so they stocked the Saturn with regularly manufactured products. These were supposed to make it a beter 3D system, but they are one of the main things that made the dual processors so hard to work with.


What if Sega hadn't done this? Well, the Saturn would've been used mainly for 2D gaming. Even now it is considered one of the best 2D gaming systems, with it's only real competitor being the SNK Neo Geo Aes. I think it is one greatest systems of all ime, personally. Now, when Sega had planned to make it mostly 2D, the console probably would have been smaller than the giant Saturn that we've all become accustomed to (Not to mention less expensive). Let's face it, of all the 32-bit and 64-bit systems, the only one that really looked good was the re-issued PSone. If it had been smaller, there's a good chance that it might have been designed to look a little better, which might have improved sales a little.


Sega's dumbest mistake with the Saturn in my opinion, however, is the fact that there was absolutely no backwards compatability. Let's face it, if they did think that they needed a boost to topple Sony, they should've made it backwards compatible with the Sega CD and 32X CD. If they did this, and changed the cartridge port to accept Genesis/32X games and accessories (such as the Power Base Converter) and made a memory card for it, it might have toppled Sony because of the HUGE library of games that could be played on it. Of course, back then, Sega wasn't making the best deisicions (Working Designs).



Sega had many oppurtunities to capitalize on that they never did! The Super NES had the Super GameBoy, where was the GameGear converter for Genesis? Also, when the system started fading, they probably should have encouraged the import scene. It would have brought new life to the Saturn that could have kept it in the running.


Alas, the Saturn will go down as an underappreciated gem, simply because Sega didn't know how to handle the beast of a machine they created.

[RCM]

Genesis did have many arcade ports but it also had a lot of great original content that made it #1. Also in the case of Saturn, Sega started designing it before Model 1 came out.

I love Saturn, it's my favorite system by far. Sega should have scrapped it and created a better machine for release in late 96 based on their 3D arcade hardware. Maybe we'd be seeing Saturn 3 right now instead of PS3. Or maybe we'd have both!

THE ONE, THE ONLY- RCM

[GameSlaveGaz]

Also bear in mind, that Sega rushed release on the Saturn. When they initially announced it, the Saturn was supposed to be out in September, then they up and surprised everyone and released it in May to beat PlayStation to the punch. If they had waited 'til September, they could've further developed the console and made it better, but they were antsy. That's another reason why the system isn't as great as it could've been. It was rushed. From what I've seen so far of the Saturn, it's not a bad system at all, but I agree, they could've done a lot more. Like I was excited when I saw the cartridge slot; I had no previous experience w/a Saturn before I finally bought one a few months ago, so I didn't know what it was, and was disappointed that there were no really useful attachments except for the network adaptor that didn't really help much. It's a shame the system doesn't have memory cards or anything either.
So yeah, so far I like the fighting games on it, but I haven't played much else yet, and I wish they had added memory cards and maybe a way to make it backwards compatible.
But that's just my 2 cents

[RCM]

Also bear in mind, that Sega rushed release on the Saturn. When they initially announced it, the Saturn was supposed to be out in September, then they up and surprised everyone and released it in May to beat PlayStation to the punch. If they had waited 'til September, they could've further developed the console and made it better, but they were antsy. That's another reason why the system isn't as great as it could've been. It was rushed. From what I've seen so far of the Saturn, it's not a bad system at all, but I agree, they could've done a lot more. Like I was excited when I saw the cartridge slot; I had no previous experience w/a Saturn before I finally bought one a few months ago, so I didn't know what it was, and was disappointed that there were no really useful attachments except for the network adaptor that didn't really help much. It's a shame the system doesn't have memory cards or anything either.
So yeah, so far I like the fighting games on it, but I haven't played much else yet, and I wish they had added memory cards and maybe a way to make it backwards compatible.
But that's just my 2 cents

The surprise US release means nothing. Saturn had already been released in November 94 in Japan. They were done developing the console.

THE ONE, THE ONLY- RCM

[swlovinist]

While I think that the multi-processor and difficult programming hurt Sega, I think the price really did them in. The Saturn retailed for $399......$100 more than Sony. I agree that backwards compatability should of been a no brainer...but alas the US Saturn got its ass kicked. The real problem with Sega at the time is their lack of vision of what people wanted. The screwed their loyal fanbase by not making it backwards compatable, and they tried to copy their competition by throwing out 3D crap on a system that was designed to to run 2D much much better.

[roushimsx]

The Saturn was always designed with 3d in mind, but much like the Gamecube vs Xbox, where one is just plainly superior in regards to 3d than the other.

The playstation was still a 2d powerhouse, as shown by its superior versions of Nocturne in the Moonline/Symphony of the Night (which is widely regarded as being a 2d masterpiece) and even in Dodonpachi and Donpachi.

Saying the Saturn had its 3d support "tacked on" is like saying the Playstation had its 2d support "tacked on". It was there from the start, it just wasn't as powerful as Sony's solution. That's all there is to it.

The design wasn't as slick and the limitations were annoying (quads vs tris lead to some porting issues, which were pretty obvious in games like Wipeout not to mention the piss poor dual cpu design where you could never fully exploit either processor because there wasn't enough bandwidth). In comparison, the Playstation was easy to develop for (which is even more interesting considering the change in pace in the modern era where the Playstation 2 is considered a bitch to properly program for).

[segagamer4life]

i dont know the answear to this one but i just wanted to throw in my opinion.i think personally the 32 bit era should have been the time when we saw some of the greatest 2 d games.i think 3 d was too rushed and horrible looking.thinking back to all the 3 d games that came out especially in those early 32 bit days of 1995 and 1996 i cant think of any that i enjoy.im amazed looking back at old magazine from then reading the reviews praising these games.i wish there were more games like astal that made it out here in the states.of course i cant really speak about this since i really dont have a large taste for 3 d games anyway.


your right, and I can't recommend enough, to anyone with a saturn to get any and all imports for that system, the saturn had some of THE greatest 2-d games, possibly, ever. The list is endless I can't say that the 3-d was rushed, but it was in its infancy stages, for sure, and thats why most titles on psx and saturn, look like garbage compared to today's standard.. but for their time, they were great.. do yourself a favor and invest in import games on the saturn

[sharp]

I think Sega didn't realise where the market was going to end up. Yes without added 3D functions it would still be a really strong 2D machine. But in fact I think Sega was right to add the 3D later on, I think otherwise it had missed bestsellers like Virtua Fighter, Virtua Cop, Sega Rally. What did more damage to the Saturn was the fact that there were too many ports of Playstation games (Playstation versions of Saturn games which were released the same dat in the West).

I think they should have put more attention on the 2D power of the machine. I owned back then King of Fighters '95 on both Playstation and Saturn (Pal) and the Saturn version is a lot better (also cause of the ROM-cartridge). I think more attention for 2D would deliver the Saturn more of a own identity and that way a loyal fanbase. I think it was really sad how it ended with the European release of X-men vs Street Fighter. Which was completed but never saw the light because Virgin wanted to wait for the Playstation version. Also Sega lacked too buy rights of other 2D gems to get them released in the west. I think games like Metal Slug or Gunbird would sell decent numbers. Sadly the 2D support in Europe was bad en the USA was even worse (no KOF 95, Keio 2, Parodius).

Still I love my Saturn (also good quality I still use my first one and use it still a lot)

[Blanka789]

Here's a good link:


http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.eidolons-inn.net/segabase/SS-SonicXtreme(J)_a1.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.eidolons-inn.net/segabase/SegaBase-Saturn(Part1).html&h=202&w=320&sz=22&tbnid=gjOwj3uuWKMJ:&tbnh=71&tbnw=113&hl=en&start=3&prev=/images%3Fq%3DSonic%2BXtreme%26svnum%3D10%26hl%3Den %26lr%3D%26sa%3DG

Sorry it's a little long.

[Mr Mort]

The playstation was still a 2d powerhouse, as shown by its superior versions of Nocturne in the Moonline/Symphony of the Night (which is widely regarded as being a 2d masterpiece) and even in Dodonpachi and Donpachi.
IMHO, I don't know if I'd call the PS a 2D "powerhouse". Certainly, SOTN was impressive, but really, the only reason the Saturn port was worse is because Konami botched the port. Almost any other 2D game I can think of that was released for both platforms, the Saturn one was usually the better of the two, especially fighting games. Just my opinion.

Back on topic:

I definately agree that Sega should have had more foresight into the fact that the market was moving towards 3D, and they really should have focused on making a console that could deliver their 3D arcade games on a home platform as best as possible.

At least we still got Daytona, VF2, Virtua Cop, Virtual On, Sega Rally, Fighting Vipers, and lots of other great arcade ports. Some of my fondest gaming memories are of playing those Sega (and Capcom) arcade games on my Saturn.

While I think there was no way for Sega to win the console wars in the US, I think SOA wanted to kill the Saturn. They refused to bring over some amazing games from Japan, and passed up great game after great game. The Saturn would have held on longer and done slightly better if Grandia, the Capcom 2D fighters, Deep Fear, Radiant Silvergun, and other amazing games had been released in North America, but SOA refused to bring any of them over.

[Blanka789]

Read the article in the link: It talks about SOA wanting to kill the Saturn and that it was originally developed to beat the 3DO. At this point it was called the Gigadrive (sounds more powerful than Megadrive), and was state of the art. Then came the Playstation...