What’s your take on copying old, no longer for sale titles?

[smokehouse]

For some time I really disliked piracy. I buy all my own CD’s, purchase retro games and buy fully licensed DVD’s. Recently I had the chance to download quite a few rather rare Sega CD titles and went ahead and took the opportunity. I got some titles like Snatcher, Shining Force CD, Final Fight, Lords of Thunder, Vay, Popful Mail and many others. At first I felt a bit convicted but after some thought I came to the conclusion that I am not taking money away from the game’s manufacturers as they are no longer for sale. Besides, many of these titles (especially Snatcher) are ridiculously expensive and I would have never paid the current asking prices. Without this opportunity I would have never been able to enjoy some really great games. All in all it’s worked out great as I can now play some amazing titles on a system that has sat dormant on my gaming shelf for years.

So, what’s your take on it? Am I a criminal? A cheap-o gamer who won’t “pay to play” ? Or, is this ok. Let’s here it.

[Slimedog]

I'm a collector and won't play anything unless I own the actual artifact. That being said, I approve of copying games from defunct systems as well as emulation. The creators aren't losing anything on it and it means I have less people to bid against at auction time.

[smokehouse]

I still feel that way about many other classic gaming systems. I for one don’t have any emulators on my computer, not even MAME. I started out some time ago (around ’98) downloading NES, SNES and Genesis roms but found it only made me want to have the real thing, thus the fact that I now collect. As for the Sega CD titles, they are exact to a licensed copy and they play on my system normally, thus the temptation.



And man, I have to say Snatcher is really, REALLY good! I can see why it brings in the big $$.

[Jumpman Jr.]

I think I fit into the "your a criminal if you use copied games." I'm not sure why, but it bothers me. I guess its the collector inside of me saying that.
Sometimes I tell people that I have like 600 NES games, and they always reply with "my friend has an XBOX and has every NES game emulated on it." When I hear that, I usually slap them in the face.

[Damion]

It dosen't bother me one way or another. even with this generation of games. It's not for me though I can till you that.

when I first started Collecting again (2-3 years back) I got a dreamcast and was D/L every Iso I could find. then I got a PSone and got a swap disc and was D/L every Iso I could find and guess what. I was bored. not only did I feel rather empty for not having bought a real copy but I really missed the satisfaction of owning the Full Lic. copy.

Some of those manuals and there boxart are worth paying cash for IMO regardless of who gets the money. But if your just interested in playing the game then really do us all a favor and D/L them :)

BTW that was in no way sarcastic.

[rayearthknight]

There is always a legal angle to downloading games/movies/music. Since gaming itself is quite "young" in terms of copyright law it would stand correct to say that every commerically released game is owned by someone, somewhere, who has the right to re-release the game or let it die.

That being said though, all of the games I own for the "classic" systems are on emulation now.

[Jibbajaba]

It's just like the forum rule about emulation discussion. Is the system still suppoted or not? If not then I don't see the problem. I also have no problem with burning games that are not available in the US. Of course, as a collector I have no interest in burned games, but until I can afford a real copy of Radiant Silvergun, I'll play it burned.

BUT you should NEVER EVER EVER burn current gen titles. The Dreamcast might still be around today if it weren't for the ease of copying DC games.

Chris

[PapaStu]

Whats your take on OLD games? How old is old enough for you?

I can still find PS stuff in many major retailers yet a new game hasnt come out for year, and for all discussionary purposes the system is 'dead' even production wise (though I can bet you money there is still at least A factory making PSOne systems) So does that mean we could/should be downloading roms for it? I think not. As will all these games.

[smokehouse]

I can say that these Sega CD titles are the only copied games I have. I will never get a copied game for a current system. I also feel the same about DVDs and CDs. I like supporting the artists I like to listen to, thus I will buy the real CD. As for DVDs, I’m a home theater fanatic and will not play a copied DVD on my $16,000 system, it’s like putting cheap-o gas in a Ferrari.

[PapaStu]

I can say that these Sega CD titles are the only copied games I have. I will never get a copied game for a current system. I also feel the same about DVDs and CDs. I like supporting the artists I like to listen to, thus I will buy the real CD. As for DVDs, I’m a home theater fanatic and will not play a copied DVD on my $16,000 system, it’s like putting cheap-o gas in a Ferrari.

But what does that matter? Your willing to dump 16k into your system (which i'm sure is amazing) and not let a pirate/copy cd/dvd pass into its components. But you'll toss cheap-o gas into your Sega CD?

[jdc]

Well.....I would burn out of circulation "dead" games that were hard to obtain, like some Dreamcast games, which IS piracy. No two ways about it. I also do not care to "mod" my consoles. It's a personal thing that everyone has an opinion on.

[neuropolitique]

Without doubt it's illegal. The companies that produced those games still own the rights to them, and can still make money off them. As recently shown by Nintendo, they can still make money off Super Mario Bros. Emulating, or burnign copies of, older games can hurt a companies current profit potential.

That being said, I don't really have a problem with it. Most of these old games will never see the light of day again, on even the most thorough compilations. And that may be the only way to play some rare games.

[Daria]

Oh it's illegal. No two ways around it.

That said I like emulation for playing unreleased and recently translated games. The stuff I couldn't normally buy if I wanted to.

I also like emulation for catagorizing games. I've found shit I never even knew existed through scouring downloads. Like currently I have a folder for every US released snes rpg which I then use as a sort of master list of what I'd like to eventually buy.

I never touch new games or systems though.

[dan2357]

Wait am I to understand that you can download a sega cd iso burn it to a cd and the Sega CD will be able to read it?
Its sounds like thats what your saying. So my question is this where do you get them..

Na just kidding . Asking for things of that sort is wrong here.

Personaly I don't have a problem with that untill some A$$ hat trys to sell the games on Ebay or such.

Come to think of it I allways thought the SegaCD was unable to read burned cd's, then again I never actually tried it.
After a quick search I found a site to download the iso's, but they charged $7 a month membership. This I feel is wrong. They did not make the games, why are they making money off them.
I would love to find a Genesis emulator that works on the Sega CD though, then I could rearange my systems and not have to leave room above it to fit the cart in the top, just put them on a cd leave it in there and be done.
anyone know of any emulators that run on the Sega CD?
Playing NES games with the genesis controller would be like those kids you see on TV shows with a N64 controller in hand while Atari Pac-Man sounds come out of the tv.

[cyberfluxor]

Personally I have digital copies of thousands of ROMs off cartridge systems. It eats up Gigs upon Gigs of memory, but you know what... I still buy the games when I find them at the store. I love my games and of course, I love the real feel on the consule over the keyboard anyday! Simply to me, the physical game > Digital copy. The 3 biggest reasons of having the ROMs are:

1. To try out games before I buy them.
2. Research what games exist on different cosules.
3. Play random games and see what ones I'd REALLY want to get that I've never heard of or were in main-stream.

P.S.
Most every ROM that I've followed up on in my possession are older games that aren't in production anymore. Matter of fact, some JERKS turn around and sell these ROMS on ebay through CDs. That's what I totally find unethical.

[chrisbid]

BUT you should NEVER EVER EVER burn current gen titles. The Dreamcast might still be around today if it weren't for the ease of copying DC games.

Chris

and part of the reason the playstation jumped to number 1 was the ease of piracy on the system, its a wash argument

as for the question at hand, i prefer owning original games, but if the price is outrageous, i dont fret about owning a burned copy

[dj898]

And man, I have to say Snatcher is really, REALLY good! I can see why it brings in the big $$.

if you ever see the price for MSX2+ Snatcher featuring SD characters you will think SCD Snatcher is dirt cheap... O_o

[dj898]

Well.....I would burn out of circulation "dead" games that were hard to obtain, like some Dreamcast games, which IS piracy. No two ways about it. I also do not care to "mod" my consoles. It's a personal thing that everyone has an opinion on.

I pretty much mod all my consoles - not for pirate copies but bypass that stupid region lock out...

only iso I have would be for those beta copies I made iso for others... :p

[Rev. Link]

I don't have a problem with people using ROMs of older games. I don't like to use them myself, though.

The two things that really bother me, though, are:

1) People selling ROMs/bootlegs.

2) People counting ROMs/bootlegs as part of their collection. If you have a ROM/bootleg, that's fine, but don't go around saying you "own" that game. That ain't right.

[dj898]

Come to think of it I allways thought the SegaCD was unable to read burned cd's, then again I never actually tried it.

they didn't bother to implement the media checking till saturn - the price for CD burner back then was very high. so any CD based console prior Saturn would have no media checking though still have the region checking...

[smokehouse]

As for counting my downloaded games as part of my collection, they’re not. They are just games that I have so I can experience them without all the $$. I will say I may land up getting a real copy of Snatcher, I think the game is that good. As for many of the others…well, they’re ok but not great. So far I am a bit disappointed with Shining Force CD. As for selling copies, that’s down right wrong. I for one would be pissed if that happened to me.

If they came out with any of these titles on another system, I would buy some of them. A new Snatcher would be amazing.



(By the way, getting the games to burn was a real pain in the ass. It took me a while to figure it out.)

[cyberfluxor]

I would NEVER say a ROM is apart of my collection and if someone does include them as so, shame on you! I might as well say I own the world because I have access to the internet or drive a fancy car because I have a desktop.

[davepesc]

Besides, many of these titles (especially Snatcher) are ridiculously expensive and I would have never paid the current asking prices. Without this opportunity I would have never been able to enjoy some really great games.

Without breaking into Angelina Jolie's house, I never could have slept on her couch. I mean, it wasn't for sale, but I got to use it. Thank god for burglery.

[-hellvin-]

I'd say it doesn't really matter. I'm sure no one's going to freak out if you make an iso of bonk's III on turbo cd. Are you going to be able and even find it in a used game store? No. Is NEC and Hudson going to care? No.

[smokehouse]

Besides, many of these titles (especially Snatcher) are ridiculously expensive and I would have never paid the current asking prices. Without this opportunity I would have never been able to enjoy some really great games.

Without breaking into Angelina Jolie's house, I never could have slept on her couch. I mean, it wasn't for sale, but I got to use it. Thank god for burglery.

I’d say that burning a 10 year old video game and B&E are slightly different from each other.

[davepesc]

Besides, many of these titles (especially Snatcher) are ridiculously expensive and I would have never paid the current asking prices. Without this opportunity I would have never been able to enjoy some really great games.

Without breaking into Angelina Jolie's house, I never could have slept on her couch. I mean, it wasn't for sale, but I got to use it. Thank god for burglery.

I’d say that burning a 10 year old video game and B&E are slightly different from each other.

True :) I just love that line of reasoning where it is OK to steal something just because it isn't for sale, or even better, too expensive.

Is it ok to steal a 2002 Civic because Honda doesn't make them anymore or because you can't afford one?

[NoahsMyBro]

You're overlooking an, imo, important and critical distinction:

If you steal a 2002 Civic, because it's either no longer available or is too expensive, you get the Civic, and you deprove somebody else of the Civic.

If, otoh, you copy a game, you still get the game, but nobody else is deprived of anything. No harm, no foul.

[smokehouse]

I know what you’re saying. Again, I’m not the biggest fan of piracy BUT to do the thing you’ve mentioned, someone is going to pay for it. To steal an item you’ll have to take it from someone, for a game ROM it’s a bit different. No one really owns the ROM I downloaded…ok, now I’m justifying it. You’re right, it is stealing. But, who am I stealing from? If Konami re-released Snatcher I’d buy a copy.

[davepesc]

You're overlooking an, imo, important and critical distinction:

If you steal a 2002 Civic, because it's either no longer available or is too expensive, you get the Civic, and you deprove somebody else of the Civic.

If, otoh, you copy a game, you still get the game, but nobody else is deprived of anything. No harm, no foul.

Ah, but in both cases, someone else loses something. The difference is that in the case of the Civic, the victim is easily identifiable, the individual who owned the car. In the case of the downloaded video game, we are talking Intellectual Property, so the vivtim (in this case) is a faceless corporation. More difficult to feel sympathy for, but a victim nonetheless.

The owner of an IP has the right to sell/not sell their ideas for whatever he feels.

Bottom line is that in order to accept downloading the game, you have to find some way of justifying theft.
It wasn't for sale.
It was too expensive.
I wouldn't have bought it otherwise.
Someone else was selling a used version.
I only wanted to try it (I love the people who say this, then tell you they have "gigs and gigs" og games on their HD.)

Replace the game in any of the above situations with a loaf of bread and you'd probably agree that it was stealing, and wrong, in every case. But somehow, because we are talking about comething more intangible, it becomes OK.

[PapaStu]

I know what you’re saying. Again, I’m not the biggest fan of piracy BUT to do the thing you’ve mentioned, someone is going to pay for it. To steal an item you’ll have to take it from someone, for a game ROM it’s a bit different. No one really owns the ROM I downloaded…ok, now I’m justifying it. You’re right, it is stealing. But, who am I stealing from? If Konami re-released Snatcher I’d buy a copy.

Your stealing the code from Konami. Go get a used copy of the game (its ok to save up for a bit) and then you get to own your own copy and be a happy camper. It has nothing to do with re-releasing, when you buy a copy of the game(legit copy, not a copy copy) you be it a new or used purchase own your access to the software. Just like a cd or movie, you can take it over to johns house or let bill borrow it, but at no point when your going online, are you doing anything but actually taking something thats not yours, and its being done with out the consent of the person or people that own it (the fine line where you can let people borrow, kinda thing).

What about going and taking a dvd movie thats gone OOP from some online source? Its the same thing. You dont own a copy, you'd not let it grace your system because its a burn, why are you feeling that its ok or right that a video game should be good to go in your system.

[smokehouse]

Actually, I don’t copy DVDs because these reasons:

-I don’t mind paying the occasional $20 for a real copy
-I’ve seen the compression on burnt discs and my system tends to expose every little flaw

It’s not really a pride issue as much as it is a quality issue. If Snatcher was $20 I’d buy a copy. If Sin City (or any other DVD for that matter) was $80, I may have to put up with the compression on a burnt copy. My copy of Snatcher plays just like the real thing. For now all that’s missing is a case, some instructions and some fancy print on the disc, not really worth $80 at this time. When the drawer is shut and the game is running, you can’t tell the difference. If it were the same for DVDs I might think about it.

I can say that I am glad I tried out these titles. Personally I don’t like Shining Force CD. If I would have paid the asking price for this game I would have been highly disappointed, I’m glad I could try it our before I bought a licensed copy. Like stated earlier I will probably pick up a copy of Snatcher as it is good enough to have in my collection, but as for many of the others (Shining force, Lords of Thunder, Final Fight, etc) I won’t be buying them as I don’t feel they’re worth the asking price.

[Falcon]

I dont think its bad, most people do it. I mean if somebody really likes the game, then they are going to go out of their way to look for it and buy it. Similar to music piracy, it could be used as advertising as well... the publisher could get exposure out of it.

[Damion]

I dont think its bad, most people do it. I mean if somebody really likes the game, then they are going to go out of their way to look for it and buy it. Similar to music piracy, it could be used as advertising as well... the publisher could get exposure out of it.

That’s a good point.

The more I think about it I realize There are more then a few people that either couldn't afford a Sega CD at the time or didn't have a chance to. Such as the 18 and under crowd. So with that, you could say that P2P is helping to resurrect dead "IPs" / Older games by building a fresh fan base.

Personally if microprose had never released a X-com for the playstation I would have never known about it nor would I love it so much. Like I do to this day. At the time I didn't have a computer. So I would have missed out on a great game. I hope someday they bring it back with the graphics completely redone. But with the core gameplay intack.

So it can't be all bad. course it can't be all good either. but at least theres a positive side to it.

[Anthony1]

Look, let's get real.



If you are copying shit, then you are stealing it.


PERIOD.



Just come to grips with it, and understand that you are a thief.


If you can live with that, then continue what you are doing and enjoy yourself. If however, you can't stop thinking about the moral issues and whether or not you are doing something bad, and you feel guilty about it, then don't do it.



I copy shit. And I used to have all kinds of excuses on why I did it. You know what my favorite excuse is?


My favorite excuse is "I've spent well over $40,000.00 in my lifetime on video games, and I feel like I've spent enough, and I'm not paying for anything else, unless it's hardware. I'll buy the razors, but I'm not buying the razorblades anymore, if I can help it"


That's my favorite excuse.



But the bottom line is that it is nothing more than an excuse and a justification for my activities.



The thing that's really funny, is the fact that we get away with NOTHING FOR FREE. NOTHING. You might think you are getting over, but if you get a $50 game for free, you will notice that something will pop up out of the blue where you have to pay $50 for something you should have never had to pay for. Like a parking ticket or something. We don't get anything for free. It's all Karma baby. When you take something without paying for it, you will pay for it in the long run, via some other method.

You might have a hard drive in your XBOX with over $1000 worth of XBOX games on it, but did you notice that your car recently broke down and you had to spend $2000 repairing it?



NOTHING IS FREE

[Nesmaster]

if it's easy i'll do it.

sega cd, dreamcast, and pc games

i picked up a ps1 with a mod chip for $5, so yeah i'l burn them too.

[Dji]

I bought many, many games because of emulation, most notably a Neo Geo cab and six games thus far. I would have probably never given the Neo a chance if not for emulation. My NES and Genesis collections would certainly not be as large as they currently are. Most importantly, many games were never released for home consoles, so MAME has enabled countless gems to live on instead of disappearing forever. What about games which were only released in other regions? What about being able to play SNES games online? What about save states and screenshots? The great Xbox plays NES games much, much better than the toaster and the top loader (unreliable and low audio-video quality, respectively), no two ways about it. And what about games which could never be played on the road if not for the PSP? Clearly, emulation has a lot going for it.

On the other hand, I have never emulated, copied, burned, etc. current-gen stuff. Not with the DC, not with the PS1, not with the Xbox, not with my PC. I will buy the upcoming Capcom Classics Collection without a doubt, as I have done with many compilations and will continue to do. The Midway and Activision ones are my favorites, by the way. I highly recommend them. However, if a company is too dumb to release such a disc, or even many discs (I'm looking at you, Konami), then too bad, I'll MAME it. I try to avoid emulation whenever I can, though. I don't like doing anything even remotely immoral, yet alone illegal. That's why I'd rather own legal copies all the time. Unfortunately, with arcade games, it's just not possible.

Edit: I did emulate many GBA roms, but I've very seldom played for more than a level (I looked at it as if they were "demos"), and almost anytime I did, I ended up buying the game afterward (as my 30+ GBA games can attest to). So, in fact, I have bought many more GBA games than I would have if I couldn't have tried them beforehand thanks to emulation.

[TheRedEye]

In the case of the downloaded video game, we are talking Intellectual Property, so the vivtim (in this case) is a faceless corporation. More difficult to feel sympathy for, but a victim nonetheless.

So when I buy a used videogame off of some guy on eBay, he donates some of the profits to the intellectual property holder?

[RCM]

I don't have a huge problem with MAME or EMUs for older systems cause the developers don't make anything off used games. If they started to that's a different story. I don't see that happening besides the classic comps of course.

Some people think pirates jacking any kind of media is not a lost sale because these people never had the intention of buying whatever they're taking anyway. Anyone agree with that?

THE ONE, THE ONLY- RCM

[pragmatic insanester]

i only have one burnt game in my collection. thrill kill, and i didn't tally it up as a legit number.

karma is such a childish concept, by the way.

[smokehouse]

In the case of the downloaded video game, we are talking Intellectual Property, so the vivtim (in this case) is a faceless corporation. More difficult to feel sympathy for, but a victim nonetheless.

So when I buy a used videogame off of some guy on eBay, he donates some of the profits to the intellectual property holder?

You know, that is a good point. The games I downloaded were purchased at one point thus the manufacturer made their money on it. No matter how many times that game changes hands in the future, the original manf will not make a dime more. If some companies would embrace piracy they would do better. Look at it this way, if Sega offered Sega CD and Dreamcast ROMS as a cheap downloadable option on their website and paid a percentage to the original manf, I’d participate. Say $5-10/ROM. Sure, the sales would be small but who cares? Some $$ is better than no $$ and all they’d have to give up is some bandwidth and hard drive space.

It’s the hard standpoint that so many companies take that’s driving much of this emulation stuff. I own the Midway classics titles and will get around to picking up the Mega Man collection and Capcom Classics collection sometime soon. I’m willing to pay reasonable prices for games if they’re available.

[yok-dfa]

2) People counting ROMs/bootlegs as part of their collection. If you have a ROM/bootleg, that's fine, but don't go around saying you "own" that game. That ain't right.

Even if you bought a legal copy, you still don't "own" it. Technically you only bought a license to use that game...

[squidblatt]

I think it's fine to download abandonware, but not games that are simply out of print. Just because something is not being sold doesn't mean that it has no value to the company. Nintendo's plans to offer their catalog for download is a good example. They may have been sitting on many of these titles all these years, but obviously they still had value. Just because Nintendo chose to wait to cash in on them shouldn't make a difference.

[googlefest1]

i say whoo cares

i collect games so i want the original copy

personly if it is possible i like to make backups of my games and keep them in a folder so my originals dont get messed up.

in the sega cd case - i feel it is a real dead system so it should be allowd to download and trade iso - i also would hope that would keep the price on originals down - keeping the demand down


thats my take

[goatdan]

BUT you should NEVER EVER EVER burn current gen titles. The Dreamcast might still be around today if it weren't for the ease of copying DC games.

That, in a nutshell, is why I won't advocate any sort of piracy ever. My favorite system, dead... thanks to piracy. (And before we get into a debate on this, don't bother. My mind for very good reasons can't be changed. I won't argue the point.)

On top of that, the GOAT Store releases have been pirated, which makes it much harder to sell them in my opinion. So, while you copying a game doesn't deprive anyone of a copy of that game, it deprives me of the ability to sell another copy of that game (and lets say that only one of every 100 people would've bought it anyway... That's still a $0.14 cost to me for each time a game is pirated).

Now, many of the older releases for the 2600 and NES and stuff, those companies don't still have copies sitting around... but someone owns those rights, and as we've seen lately with the Mega Man compilation and the Flashback consoles, they do still make money off them. Again, if one of every 100 people are deciding to pirate instead of purchase, the company may see their market as very small and decide to not release certain old compilations, depriving those of us who follow the rules with games we want to play.

[goatdan]

Oh yes, and one final thing... I do think that if you own the original media, you can make backups and that is fine. One of the things that I want to do with my Dreamcast collection is get myself a HUGE harddrive (or multiple ones) and then do a direct copy of all of the games onto it in case they ever end up with disc rot. But the only games I want to copy are Dreamcast games, and I own every one of those. In that case, I see no problem.

[davepesc]

I bought many, many games because of emulation, most notably a Neo Geo cab and six games thus far. I would have probably never given the Neo a chance if not for emulation. My NES and Genesis collections would certainly not be as large as they currently are. Most importantly, many games were never released for home consoles, so MAME has enabled countless gems to live on instead of disappearing forever. What about games which were only released in other regions? What about being able to play SNES games online? What about save states and screenshots? The great Xbox plays NES games much, much better than the toaster and the top loader (unreliable and low audio-video quality, respectively), no two ways about it. And what about games which could never be played on the road if not for the PSP? Clearly, emulation has a lot going for it.

On the other hand, I have never emulated, copied, burned, etc. current-gen stuff. Not with the DC, not with the PS1, not with the Xbox, not with my PC. I will buy the upcoming Capcom Classics Collection without a doubt, as I have done with many compilations and will continue to do. The Midway and Activision ones are my favorites, by the way. I highly recommend them. However, if a company is too dumb to release such a disc, or even many discs (I'm looking at you, Konami), then too bad, I'll MAME it. I try to avoid emulation whenever I can, though. I don't like doing anything even remotely immoral, yet alone illegal. That's why I'd rather own legal copies all the time. Unfortunately, with arcade games, it's just not possible.

Edit: I did emulate many GBA roms, but I've very seldom played for more than a level (I looked at it as if they were "demos"), and almost anytime I did, I ended up buying the game afterward (as my 30+ GBA games can attest to). So, in fact, I have bought many more GBA games than I would have if I couldn't have tried them beforehand thanks to emulation.

I love this, just look at all the excuses. Then he says, "I don't like doing anything even remotely immoral, yet alone illegal. That's why I'd rather own legal copies all the time. Unfortunately, with arcade games, it's just not possible." Somehow, because he can't buy an arcade game, that makes it OK to steal it!

Just to hit some other posts: I WISH companies would sell downloads on their websites. I guess they just don't want to have to deal with all the compatibility issues.

As for the issue of used game retailers, I really don't know the answer about this, but I know courts have ruled that this is legal. The only thing I can think of is that selling used games doesn't increase the total number of games available. If the company sold 100 games and I sell you my copy, there are still 100 games out there and you can play and I can't. Maybe there are licenses, like the blank audio tape industry paid when that whole thing was going on.

And, to change to another post, it is 100% legal to make a backup of a game you own. That does not mean you can download R.C. Pro-Am if you own the cart, but you can hook the cart up to a reader and dump the code. The backup, of course, must be for your use only.

[goatdan]

As for the issue of used game retailers, I really don't know the answer about this, but I know courts have ruled that this is legal. The only thing I can think of is that selling used games doesn't increase the total number of games available. If the company sold 100 games and I sell you my copy, there are still 100 games out there and you can play and I can't. Maybe there are licenses, like the blank audio tape industry paid when that whole thing was going on.

Once you purchase a product, you purchase it to own it -- not just to play it. If you purchase a copy of Halo and decide to sell it, since it is your legally purchased copy that already had the licensing paid for on it, you can do whatever you want with it.

A used game already has its 'fee' paid. A pirated copy has never had a 'fee' paid, regardless of the media it comes on.

[Daria]

On top of that, the GOAT Store releases have been pirated, which makes it much harder to sell them in my opinion.

See now I'm all for [some] emulation but that's just wrong. Pirating homebrews is just cheap. Who'd bother creating games for dead systems if everyone just stole them, and shame on whoever buys the game to rip it too.

[NE146]

All I know is every single one of my Apple II games was pirated, and that was when it was current gen! LOL :hmm:

[goatdan]

On top of that, the GOAT Store releases have been pirated, which makes it much harder to sell them in my opinion.

See now I'm all for [some] emulation but that's just wrong. Pirating homebrews is just cheap. Who'd bother creating games for dead systems if everyone just stole them, and shame on whoever buys the game to rip it too.

Agreed. I think that the ripping and posting happened in Japan however, where our games aren't looked up as "homebrews" and they sell quite a bit better too.

I guess to them, we are just a faceless corporation which only cares about it's bottom line. *shrug*

[smokehouse]

A used game already has its 'fee' paid. A pirated copy has never had a 'fee' paid, regardless of the media it comes on.

Now I wouldn’t go so far as to say that. Unless I’m wrong 99% of the ROMs on the Internet were bought at some time. The Sega CD ROMs I downloaded came from a licensed copy somewhere down the line. I strongly doubt they were a hack straight from the original manufacturer. If Konami sold say 50,000 copies of Snatcher and all were legally purchased and survived, there should be 50,000 copies still floating around. Konami made their $$ from these copies. Now, some 10 years down the road someone rips the info and puts it online, what $$ has Konami lost? They still don’t sell it and there’s still only the original 50,000 out on the market. I just don’t get how it is ripping anyone off (again, in the case of dead titles, not current software).

[bargora]

Is it OK to download a ROM of Atari's Crystal Castles? Keep in mind that it was published recently for both Xbox and PlayStation 2 (both the arcade and Atari 2600 versions). If not, was it OK to download the ROMs the day before Atari Anthology was released?

[rbudrick]

Besides, many of these titles (especially Snatcher) are ridiculously expensive and I would have never paid the current asking prices. Without this opportunity I would have never been able to enjoy some really great games.

Without breaking into Angelina Jolie's house, I never could have slept on her couch. I mean, it wasn't for sale, but I got to use it. Thank god for burglery.

I’d say that burning a 10 year old video game and B&E are slightly different from each other.

Well, I guess that depends on whether you buy the house after. LOL LOL

-Rob

[chrisbid]

Is it OK to download a ROM of Atari's Crystal Castles? Keep in mind that it was published recently for both Xbox and PlayStation 2 (both the arcade and Atari 2600 versions). If not, was it OK to download the ROMs the day before Atari Anthology was released?


assuming the version on the compilation disc are accurate, once that is released there is little need for downloading a rom. 20 dollars for a compilation disc, or 150 dollars for snatcher on a 13 years old system

[goatdan]

A used game already has its 'fee' paid. A pirated copy has never had a 'fee' paid, regardless of the media it comes on.

Now I wouldn’t go so far as to say that. Unless I’m wrong 99% of the ROMs on the Internet were bought at some time.

Yes, someone on the Internet who posted your completely illegal copy of the game did pay the fee, but they didn't say to Konami, "each time someone downloads this, I'll pay you $2.00 for having made the game." No, they are taking a copy of it and giving it out for free.

It is like if you had a place that was selling copies of DVDs, and you tried to justify their business by saying, "Well, someone paid for the original copy of the game, so if they want to put it on 1000 more copies and send those out to others for free, it doesn't hurt the original company."

But, like I mentioned from firsthand knowledge, it does hurt the original company. It's just nicer for a lot of you when it is a company like Konami that is faceless.

[Captain J]

I'd say it doesn't really matter. I'm sure no one's going to freak out if you make an iso of bonk's III on turbo cd. Are you going to be able and even find it in a used game store? No. Is NEC and Hudson going to care? No.

I totally agree with you Hellvin but I have to tell you something very funny, I had Bonk 3 for Turbo CD in my store for sale yesterday LOL

[Wavelflack]

"On top of that, the GOAT Store releases have been pirated, which makes it much harder to sell them in my opinion. So, while you copying a game doesn't deprive anyone of a copy of that game, it deprives me of the ability to sell another copy of that game (and lets say that only one of every 100 people would've bought it anyway... That's still a $0.14 cost to me for each time a game is pirated)."


But those are games you are still selling. What if you decide that you would not manufacture those titles anymore? Once the last copy is sold, do you care whether or not copies of your work are made?

I own very few CD-rs with games on them, and 90% of those are simply compilations of games I DO already own, to run on the Dreamcast. I'm not a champion of piracy by any means. But I feel that if the IP holder is no longer interested in providing their material to the public (ie; selling), and if the original retail stock of a title has been exhausted, then there's really no problem in my eyes. Royalties are not paid for used game sales.

[bargora]

Is it OK to download a ROM of Atari's Crystal Castles? Keep in mind that it was published recently for both Xbox and PlayStation 2 (both the arcade and Atari 2600 versions). If not, was it OK to download the ROMs the day before Atari Anthology was released?
assuming the version on the compilation disc are accurate, once that is released there is little need for downloading a rom. 20 dollars for a compilation disc, or 150 dollars for snatcher on a 13 years old system
So you feel that it's OK to download the ROM up until the day that the reissue/compilation is released?

[chrisbid]

Is it OK to download a ROM of Atari's Crystal Castles? Keep in mind that it was published recently for both Xbox and PlayStation 2 (both the arcade and Atari 2600 versions). If not, was it OK to download the ROMs the day before Atari Anthology was released?
assuming the version on the compilation disc are accurate, once that is released there is little need for downloading a rom. 20 dollars for a compilation disc, or 150 dollars for snatcher on a 13 years old system
So you feel that it's OK to download the ROM up until the day that the reissue/compilation is released?


pretty much, its simply a last resort

as a collector, i do prefer original copies, but when the supply is artificially limited, then copying games is the only way to preserve them. in fact, if it werent for MAME and other emulators with questionable legalities, publishers would have never woken up to the fact that there is demand for their older products, and we wouldnt have got these compilations and rereleases in the first place.

[Raedon]

With old computer games for the C64 or Amiga one almost has to own backups as the media gets frictioned out of order.

[goatdan]

But those are games you are still selling. What if you decide that you would not manufacture those titles anymore? Once the last copy is sold, do you care whether or not copies of your work are made?

I would care. If the prices for FoF shot up on eBay after we stopped selling it, I think that it should be up to us and the people who wrote the should be able to decide what to with it, not the people who want to play it.


But I feel that if the IP holder is no longer interested in providing their material to the public (ie; selling), and if the original retail stock of a title has been exhausted, then there's really no problem in my eyes. Royalties are not paid for used game sales.

If the IP holder is no longer interested in providing their material to the public, they need to make that announcement. It can't be made by someone saying, "Well, so-and-so isn't selling this game any more, so that makes it okay for me to make copies of it." How does that person know what the company was planning on doing with it?

If we sell out of Feet of Fury, and in three years we want to make a compilation disc for lets say the Xbox with Feet of Fury, Inhabitants and Maqiupai on it, I don't want people in the next three years saying, "They must not be interested in making it, so lemme make a copy of it for you."

You don't know what the company is planning on doing. It's a bad excuse, nothing more.

And companies *do* get their royalties on used copies. The first time it was sold, they got their royalties for _that copy_ of the game. If you sell it ten more times, it is still ONE copy of the game that can only be played on one system at a time... and the first person to buy it paid that company for it.

[Wavelflack]

Quick note:
"And companies *do* get their royalties on used copies. The first time it was sold, they got their royalties for _that copy_ of the game."

I said "Royalties are not paid for used game sales."

[goatdan]

Quick note:
"And companies *do* get their royalties on used copies. The first time it was sold, they got their royalties for _that copy_ of the game."

I said "Royalties are not paid for used game sales."

I don't get it. Yes, a company doesn't get paid again and again when a used copy of a game is sold, but the royalties were paid on it once, and you can only use it on one system at a time.

Copying a game means that you can use the royalties that were only paid once on multiple machines at a time.

Thus, one used copy sold = a copy that still had royalties paid at one point, versus one copy pirated = one copy that had royalties paid at one point, with multiple copies of it with no royalties paid.

Am I missing something? I don't see how anyone would consider selling a used game as anything near piracy. Did I miss the point? :embarrassed:

[shoes23]

If the company releases the title as freeware/abandonware I'm all for it, otherwise I feel guilty about pirating computer software. Piracy leads to nothing but frustrated devolopers and rising software costs, and I'm against both.