Video game sequels not such a bad thing.

[njiska]

I know a lot of people like to bitch about how many sequels are out there and how few new games there are. But i think a lot of people don't seem to realize that games, unlike movies, tradtionally do get better with the sequels. I'm not saying we don't need new content, i'm just saying don't hate on sequels.

The problem is quality not quanity. Bad sequels being pumped out to fast are the problem.

Look at all these game series where the sequel is better then the original. It's really quite amazing.

Mario - SMB3
Sonic - Sonic 2 or Sonic CD
Streetfighter - Street FIghter 2 Turbo
Resident Evil - Take your pick
Silent Hill - Silent Hill 2
Devil May Cry - DMC3
Metal Gear/Solid - MGS3 (althought it's tough to say if it's better then plain old MGS)
Dead or Alive - DOA 2 Ultimate
Virtua Fighter - VF4 EVO
Tekken - Tekken 3
The Legend of Zelda - Ocarina of TIme or A Link to the Past
Splinter Cell - SC: Chaos Theory
GTA - GTA:VC (my opinion. i know most people think GTA:SA is the best)
Grand Turismo - GT3 or GT4
Metroid - Super Metroid
Need for Speed - Take your pick but i like ND4SPD: Hot Pursuit
Ninja Gaiden - Ninja Gaiden 2
Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles - TMNT: The Arcade Game
Half-Life - HL2
Quake - Quake 2
Mortal Kombat - MK2
Final Fantasy - Many good choices
Dragon Quest - Also many good choices

The list goes on. Feel free to toss out and other series where the sequel excelled.

[Lothars]

I think it really depends, sequels in general is a good thing

because normally improves on the game for the better and expands on the story which just makes the series all the better.

so it does depend.

[Blackjax]

I like sequals... the only time a sequal really isn't welcome is if its nothing but Shovelware... a good example of this would be Devil May Cry 2. It was a poorly done sequal put out quickly just to cash in on the popularity of the first game. As long as that isn't the case, bring on the sequal :)

[IntvGene]

The problem with sequels (compared to movies) is that they can recycle many of the same concepts again in the sequel successfully. I think it was just better if there wasn't such a reliance on sequels. Nowadays, as games require higher budgets and more planning, I think you are seeing a reduction in creativity and reliance on sequels to generate revenue.

Many of the games you have listed don't add a lot to the game, but improve it with new graphics. Sure they are better than the original, but just because newer technologies or techniques allowed them to make improvements, it doesn't mean that the sequel should be made, or even that the series should be recycled ad nauseam. Graphics only impress me so much.

They also have more time to refine the game in sequels to make them better. But, I think such time should be used to make original ideas.

A successful mascot or character can be huge to a company, and similarly with a successful series of games. Our modern society rewards companies who milk a successful idea way too long, IMHO. If such limitations were removed from copyrighting and trademarking, things would be different. You still need to provide the incentive for companies to produce games, but should companies really be protected so that they can produce another stereotypical sequel of a game with very little original content fifteen years later?

Anyway, I got a little off topic there. Sorry about that. I still like sequels that are worth creating... I just don't like rewarding them when they rush out something that isn't original.

[WiseSalesman]

Look at all these game series where the sequel is better then the original. It's really quite amazing.

Mario - SMB3 - DISAGREE
Sonic - Sonic 2 or Sonic CD - DISAGREE
Streetfighter - Street FIghter 2 Turbo - AGREED
Resident Evil - Take your pick - they're mostly equal
Silent Hill - Silent Hill 2 - DISAGREE
Devil May Cry - DMC3 - DISAGREE
Metal Gear/Solid - MGS3 (althought it's tough to say if it's better then plain old MGS) - DISAGREE
Dead or Alive - DOA 2 Ultimate - DISAGREE
Virtua Fighter - VF4 EVO - AGREED
Tekken - Tekken 3 - the whole series is equally lackluster
The Legend of Zelda - Ocarina of TIme or A Link to the Past - DISAGREE
Splinter Cell - SC: Chaos Theory - they both sucked
GTA - GTA:VC (my opinion. i know most people think GTA:SA is the best) - all three sucked
Grand Turismo - GT3 or GT4 - all four sucked
Metroid - Super Metroid -AGREED
Need for Speed - Take your pick but i like ND4SPD: Hot Pursuit - they're all terrible
Ninja Gaiden - Ninja Gaiden 2 - HEAVILY DISAGREE
Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles - TMNT: The Arcade Game - AGREED
Half-Life - HL2 - DISAGREE
Quake - Quake 2 - AGREE
Mortal Kombat - MK2 - they both sucked
Final Fantasy - Many good choices - DISAGREE
Dragon Quest - Also many good choices - DISAGREE

The list goes on. Feel free to toss out and other series where the sequel excelled.

Okay, so in the quote above I've added my opinion to each of your statements, in bold. You can see that not everyone always thinks that newer - better.

[Daria]

Dragon Quest - Also many good choices - DISAGREE


Okay, so in the quote above I've added my opinion to each of your statements, in bold. You can see that not everyone always thinks that newer - better.

As much as I love the original Dragon Warrior, if you seriously think that 4 didn't improve upon nearly every aspect of the game you've got to be suffering some some serious head trauma.

Not to mention he said Dragon Quest... in which the hero could face only one direction.

[Joker T]

This is very True some games just get better with sequels

but some like Madden and Tony Hawk add more features then new gameplay @_@

[Nature Boy]

Okay, so in the quote above I've added my opinion to each of your statements, in bold. You can see that not everyone always thinks that newer - better.

What difference does it make when you make statements like "all three sucked" though. Saying that SMB 1 was the pinnacle of that series and that SMB3 or SWM or SM64 pale in comparision is an opinion, and one that you probably don't share with a lot of others (SMW and SM64 are probably my favorite of that series personally).

I have less of a problem with sequels and more of a problem with remakes. How many times am I supposed to but the same game? Resident Evil comes to mind first, as, although I didn't buy the PS game, I have bought the Gamecube version and, despite wanting software for my DS, I am *not* buying it again.

[Push Upstairs]

I'd say a sequel is a game that adds welcome improvment its previous game.

The SF2 games.....ehh between the regular and "Super Turbo" were really nothing more than tweaks to an already established "sequel" (SF2)

[DigitalSpace]

Burnout - Burnout 3
Ford Racing - Ford Racing 3
4x4 Evolution - 4x4 Evo 2
SSX - SSX3
Midnight Club - Midnight Club 3: DUB Edition

My preferences on some that were already listed:

Super Mario Bros. - Super Mario World
Sonic The Hedgehog - Sonic 2
Metroid - Super Metroid
The Legend Of Zelda - A Link To The Past
Need For Speed - Need For Speed: Hot Pursuit 2
Gran Turismo - Gran Turismo 2
Final Fantasy - Final Fantasy III
Grand Theft Auto - GTA: San Andreas

[Sylentwulf]

Wisesalesman is on crack as always but this one:
The Legend of Zelda - Ocarina of TIme or A Link to the Past
is just sheer lunacy. Not only do most people still think the original is the best in the series, my opinion is that oot is the WORST in the series (not including gb games, which I don't play)

But in genereal, yes I will agreee with you that most sequels DO improve, it's when it's taken too far that people start bitching (everything after FF7 has gone one step downhill per title, Megaman anything, street fighter after Sf2 turbo IMO)

[WiseSalesman]

Wisesalesman is on crack as always

Haha ha ha...love you too, Sylent! You take care now!


As much as I love the original Dragon Warrior, if you seriously think that 4 didn't improve upon nearly every aspect of the game you've got to be suffering some some serious head trauma.

Not to mention he said Dragon Quest... in which the hero could face only one direction.

Whoops...my bad. I thought that said Dragon Warrior, not Dragon Quest. Still, however, DW1 is the only game of the series I've ever been able to enjoy. The sequels were always...I don't know...boring by the numbers RPGs to me. Of course, I'm not certain I've ever agreed with one opinion of a game you've had since you started posting here, so this dissonance doesn't really surprise me. We just like totally different games is all.


What difference does it make when you make statements like "all three sucked" though

None at all, but I can't compare syphillis to AIDS and I can't compare GTA to GTA:VC. I knew someone would remark that I had failed to list a vote of "yea" or "nay" on some games, so I had to write something else.


Saying that SMB 1 was the pinnacle of that series and that SMB3 or SWM or SM64 pale in comparision is an opinion, and one that you probably don't share with a lot of others (SMW and SM64 are probably my favorite of that series personally).

I know it's a minority opinion, but SMB3 is probably my least favorite of the true Mario games. I'm aware that many people like it best, but I'm not going to alter my opinion just to fit the norm. Honestly, my favorite is probably 64. But he didn't ask about 64, he asked about 3, and, quite frankly, I enjoy the original quite a bit more when compared to that particular iteration. In any case, most of you are missing my point, which was to put honest opinion out there to prove only one thing:


not everyone always thinks that newer - better.

In general, I tend to like originals better than their sequels. I could go on and on about this, and list dozens more examples, but why bother? I've stated my point in plain text twice. He stated as fact a list of sequels that were "better" than the originals. I am redefining that as opinion.

Oh...and one more thing before I go....


everything after FF6 has gone one step downhill per title

Fixed it for ya, Sylent. :kiss:

[SirDrexl]

One thing I do like about most of the good sequels is that they're easy to get into if you're familiar with the previous game(s). Games nowadays can be very complex, and sometimes it's nice to have a sequel where you can jump in right away and start playing without having to learn a whole new set of controls. You may have a new move or two or a new feature or something, but that's usually it.

[Sylentwulf]

QUOTE WISESALESMAN REPLY

Resident Evil - Take your pick - they're mostly equal Well, I haven't played it yet, but RE4 sounds great, and RE1 on the gamecube was an EXCELLENT game.

Silent Hill - Silent Hill 2 - DISAGREE I would disagree as well, bu SH 3 is better than the 2nd one at least.

Devil May Cry - DMC3 - DISAGREE I thought 1 sucked so bad I didn't play the sequels.

Metal Gear/Solid - MGS3 (althought it's tough to say if it's better then plain old MGS) - DISAGREE I'd have to say the MGS3 is my fav. in the whole series. MGS 2 certainly wasn't an imporvement over ANYTHING,

GTA - GTA:VC (my opinion. i know most people think GTA:SA is the best) - all three sucked This is the kinda statement that just makes people sound flat out childish. The series obviously doesn't suck, you may not like it, that's fine.

Grand Turismo - GT3 or GT4 - all four sucked See my above statement. Now this whole post sounds immature and childish fanboism.

Need for Speed - Take your pick but i like ND4SPD: Hot Pursuit - they're all terrible I've never played them, but it's a popular series. Face it, popular things CAN NOT SUCK, otherwise, they would NOT HAVE SEQUELS.

Mortal Kombat - MK2 - they both sucked Yes, everything sucks...... sigh....

Dragon Quest - Also many good choices - DISAGREE
THIS is where I have the biggest problem on your statements. Have you REALLY played DW4? I mean honestly, the DW (DQ whatever) series got better and better and better from 1-4. 4 being the pinnacle of ultimate 7-bit RPG-ness ever to be created by the human race.



I unquoted because it was hard to read my comments, and added comments after the things I disagreeed with, I edited out the things I haven't played, or agreed with.

[Lothars]

everything after FF6 has gone one step downhill per title

Fixed it for ya, Sylent. :kiss:

I agree fully with you on that point

[chrisbid]

there is nothing wrong with a sequel in of itself, but when the market is saturated with them, its a bad thing.

[Sylentwulf]

everything after FF6 has gone one step downhill per title

Fixed it for ya, Sylent. :kiss:

I agree fully with you on that point

I would personally have to say graphics aside, that FF6 and 7 are about equal, but that's just personal opinion. FF6 has such a SLOW and hard to get going start, that I've only finished it 2-3 times. I've STARTED it 8-9 times :) Whereas FF4 and FF7 I've beaten at LEAST 7-10 times each (I know, it's sad)

[WiseSalesman]

"Popular things can not suck"...pssh...that may be the most ridiculous thing you've ever said. Normally, I look at you as someone with a different opinion than me, but a worthy opponent with VALID opinions nonetheless, but this is just insane.

I'm sorry, I didn't realize that something being popular automatically meant that it was quality. In that case, I guess McDonald's is top quality cuisine, Tupac was a master poet, and Hitler was a fantastic leader. I stated my opinions and I stand by them. The games may have fantastic production values and they may sell millions of copies; in my opinion they are not quality software.


Now this whole post sounds immature and childish fanboism.

Disregarding the fact that that sentence made no sense at all, there is nothing fanboy-ish about my post. I'm not screaming that one system is better than another. I'm not screaming that one developer is better than another. I'm simply stating the video game series' which I did not think were very good (i.e. "sucked"). If not liking something, and stating your opinion as such, makes you a fanboy then I guess everyone who doesn't like sports games is a fanboy. Everyone who doesn't like RPGs is a fanboy. Everyone who just can't play Romance of the Three Kingdoms must be a fanboy. Sorry, it doesn't hold water.

Let's see what I can do about addressing the rest of your concerns that weren't made up of chiding me for being "immature".

On RE: I've played several of the Resident Evil games, including the REmake and RE4. I like them. I didn't say anything bad about them. Discounting simple graphical updates, which mean little to me, I find that in terms of quality, most of the games are equal, with Code Veronica, RE3, and RE0 being on the low end of the totem pole. The sequels are different, but I would not say they are absolutely better.

On Silent Hill - I haven't played The Room yet. I just know I enjoyed SH1 a great deal more than SH2.

On DMC - I loved DMC1. I loved DMC3 too. I think DMC1 was the better game, though. I liked the feel better. I liked the difficulty better. I liked the fact that every boss battle did NOT had the same crappy nu-metal track laid over it.

On MGS - Actually, I just finished MGS3 and it was indeed a fantastic game. Yes, MGS2 was horrible. As much as I liked MGS3, I had more fun with MGS1 and I also liked the story better. If you want me to quantify why I liked MGS1 more, well, PM me. This is shaping up to be a huge post already.

GTA, GT, NFS, MK - addressed above in the first two paragraphs of my reply.

As for the DQ/DW series....you asked did I "REALLY play" DW4. I'm not sure what you mean by "REALLY play". I booted it up. I think I played an hour or two into it. It didn't grab me. I was bored. I couldn't continue to play or finish it. Alternatively, I've finished DW1 numerous times. I'll concede it's possible that DW1 is ALSO a boring game, and that I'm able to finish it out of nostalgia (i first played it as a child), but I can only go with my perception of the series.

I never meant for this to turn into some discussion about whether GameX 1 is better than GameX 2 and so on, but if you call me out, you know I'm going to answer. Especially, if YOU call me out, Sylent. :lovin:

[njiska]

I like sequals... the only time a sequal really isn't welcome is if its nothing but Shovelware... a good example of this would be Devil May Cry 2. It was a poorly done sequal put out quickly just to cash in on the popularity of the first game. As long as that isn't the case, bring on the sequal Smile

God DMC2 is a sin against nature, but hey at least we got the stellar DMC3 to follow it up. Bad Ass Dante is back.


Many of the games you have listed don't add a lot to the game, but improve it with new graphics. Sure they are better than the original, but just because newer technologies or techniques allowed them to make improvements, it doesn't mean that the sequel should be made, or even that the series should be recycled ad nauseam. Graphics only impress me so much.

I've got to disagree with you there. Let me give you a few shining examples.

SMB3 is leaps and bounds improved over SMB and SMB2. The power ups, the world structure, the airships. It's a drastically improved game.

Street Fight 2 Trubo, while being one of a shit load of unwanted sequels that Capcom should die for. Is a drastically different game from Street Fighter.

Resident Evil 4 great innovates the classic RE gameplay. Even RE3 added a dodge button and let's not for get the wonderful addition of the quick turn.

The Silent hill series may not have changed much until SH4: The Room. But the stories were so unique with each one that it made them stand out.

If you say MGS only improved in the graphics department you should be shot:

Additions to MGS2:

First person shooting
Swimming
MK22 Tranq Gun
Dog Tags

Addition to MGS3

Camo
Stamina system
Food
Medical treatment

DOA2U while mainly being a graphical improvement over DOA2 did add amazing online play and even the original DOA2 was a major update over the first game.

GTA 3 added alot to the series and Vice City added an amazing story with good voice acting. San Andreas added an RPG like health system and Harriers.

HL2 - Gravity gun, need i say more?

So as you see many games were more then just graphical updates.




I have less of a problem with sequels and more of a problem with remakes. How many times am I supposed to but the same game? Resident Evil comes to mind first, as, although I didn't buy the PS game, I have bought the Gamecube version and, despite wanting software for my DS, I am *not* buying it again.

Remakes vary from situation to situation. For instance i love DOAU because of online play and because I like having it on my xbox. REmake for the GC is a really good game and it's different enough from the PS version that you don't feel like you got the same game twice. I'd buy it just to see Richard die in the Aqua ring (can't do that in the PS version). As for the DS version, well, for me it all depends on how the game is. If there's a lot of new content like REmake had, i will probably pick it up. The first person knife fighting and wiping the blood off the screen seem kind of cool to me.

It's remakes like RE2,3,CVX for the GC and SF2 that really piss me off. Aren't there like 17 versions of that game? Capcom knows how to milk a teat for all it's worth i'll give ya that.



PostPosted: Fri Aug 26, 2005 3:49 pm Post subject:
Burnout - Burnout 3
Ford Racing - Ford Racing 3
4x4 Evolution - 4x4 Evo 2
SSX - SSX3
Midnight Club - Midnight Club 3: DUB Edition

My preferences on some that were already listed:

Super Mario Bros. - Super Mario World
Sonic The Hedgehog - Sonic 2
Metroid - Super Metroid
The Legend Of Zelda - A Link To The Past
Need For Speed - Need For Speed: Hot Pursuit 2
Gran Turismo - Gran Turismo 2
Final Fantasy - Final Fantasy III
Grand Theft Auto - GTA: San Andreas

Holy tap-dancing christ, how the hell did i forget Burnout 3. God i feel like such an idiot. Oh well thanks for mentioning that.

BTW the preferences you posted help to illustrate my point. Even though we have different tastes, we can see that there are a lot of worth sequels out there. this is the kind of post WiseSalesman should've made. Kudous to you.


Wisesalesman is on crack as always but this one:
The Legend of Zelda - Ocarina of TIme or A Link to the Past
is just sheer lunacy. Not only do most people still think the original is the best in the series, my opinion is that oot is the WORST in the series (not including gb games, which I don't play)

But in genereal, yes I will agreee with you that most sequels DO improve, it's when it's taken too far that people start bitching (everything after FF7 has gone one step downhill per title, Megaman anything, street fighter after Sf2 turbo IMO)

Hey everyone is titled to their opinion but these are the reasons why i chose to list OOT and LTTP as the top zelda games:

1. GameRankings
2. IGN top 100
3. My own personal opinion
4. My friends, own personal opinions.

I say to each their own and in truth there's no situation where were all gonna agree on which game in a series is the best. But at least we can see that over all sequels to good games often out do the original.

Although i think we can all agree that DMC2 is a sequel nobody asked for.

Oh and you're right. Megaman has gone to shit. Thank god for the Collections.


Whoops...my bad. I thought that said Dragon Warrior, not Dragon Quest. Still, however, DW1 is the only game of the series I've ever been able to enjoy. The sequels were always...I don't know...boring by the numbers RPGs to me. Of course, I'm not certain I've ever agreed with one opinion of a game you've had since you started posting here, so this dissonance doesn't really surprise me. We just like totally different games is all.

None at all, but I can't compare syphillis to AIDS and I can't compare GTA to GTA:VC. I knew someone would remark that I had failed to list a vote of "yea" or "nay" on some games, so I had to write something else.

I know it's a minority opinion, but SMB3 is probably my least favorite of the true Mario games. I'm aware that many people like it best, but I'm not going to alter my opinion just to fit the norm. Honestly, my favorite is probably 64. But he didn't ask about 64, he asked about 3, and, quite frankly, I enjoy the original quite a bit more when compared to that particular iteration. In any case, most of you are missing my point, which was to put honest opinion out there to prove only one thing:

WiseSalesman said:
not everyone always thinks that newer - better.


In general, I tend to like originals better than their sequels. I could go on and on about this, and list dozens more examples, but why bother? I've stated my point in plain text twice. He stated as fact a list of sequels that were "better" than the originals. I am redefining that as opinion.

Oh...and one more thing before I go....

Sylentwulf said:
everything after FF6 has gone one step downhill per title


Fixed it for ya, Sylent. Kiss

Thank you for clarifing a few things. After reading your first post i was ready to tear you a new one and beleive me i would've. You're first post wasn't very informative.

That being said i'm not out to prove that all people think that the sequels are better. Just that it's a more commonly held opinion. You may like the original in a lot of series but hey like you said, you're the minority.

And i only tried to list what i preceived to be the best based on general opinion. I didn't mention SM64 because SMB 3 is generally considered to be one of the gretest games of all time, not because i think SM64 sucks (in truth i rather like it. The DS port was the first DS game i bought).

To be fair you took a very biased self-centered point of view on the series' of games, where as i took the more open stance of acknowledging imporvments even if it's a game i didn't like. I'm no GTA or FF fan (well i was before VII) but at least i can acknowledge that many people love them and that the series has some imporvements that the fans love.

And you could've just said no comment on GT or GTA rather then making the childish sounding statement that they all suck. It only hurts you when you say things like that. Take some friendly advice, think before you post.


"Popular things can not suck"...pssh...that may be the most ridiculous thing you've ever said. Normally, I look at you as someone with a different opinion than me, but a worthy opponent with VALID opinions nonetheless, but this is just insane.

I'm sorry, I didn't realize that something being popular automatically meant that it was quality. In that case, I guess McDonald's is top quality cuisine, Tupac was a master poet, and Hitler was a fantastic leader. I stated my opinions and I stand by them. The games may have fantastic production values and they may sell millions of copies; in my opinion they are not quality software.

Ok maybe i do need to rip you a new one. Look your just spiltting hairs. McDonalds is not top quality cusine, but that's not what it's intended to be. It's meant to be fast food and in general opinion, while it may not be the best, it certainly does not suck as far as fast food is concerned.

Tupac was in fact a master poet and Hitler was a fantastic leader, when he was elected. After that things when down hill and you couldn't speak out against him without being taken away by the Gestopo.


Disregarding the fact that that sentence made no sense at all, there is nothing fanboy-ish about my post. I'm not screaming that one system is better than another. I'm not screaming that one developer is better than another. I'm simply stating the video game series' which I did not think were very good (i.e. "sucked"). If not liking something, and stating your opinion as such, makes you a fanboy then I guess everyone who doesn't like sports games is a fanboy. Everyone who doesn't like RPGs is a fanboy. Everyone who just can't play Romance of the Three Kingdoms must be a fanboy. Sorry, it doesn't hold water.

There is a lot fanboy-ish about your post. Mainly because you just didn't say anything other then, "I disagree" or "it sucks". When you post like that on a forum that makes you sound like a fanboy. And like i said earlier you could've just chose not to comment on things like GTA. Instead, whether or not you want to beleive it, you came off sounding like an ass.


On RE: I've played several of the Resident Evil games, including the REmake and RE4. I like them. I didn't say anything bad about them. Discounting simple graphical updates, which mean little to me, I find that in terms of quality, most of the games are equal, with Code Veronica, RE3, and RE0 being on the low end of the totem pole. The sequels are different, but I would not say they are absolutely better.

Hahaha RE4 is a graphical update. LOL and i suppose you say the same about the current Spyhunter compared to the original.

The RE series has had more then just graphic updates over the years. They've added things like:

180 degree quick-turn
Dodge
First Person SHooting (the crappy gun survivor games)
Partners

RE has evolved.

Now putting all this behind us i still think the biggest problem is that you just stated you disagreed. You never stated you like the original one best. You're posts lack depth.


I never meant for this to turn into some discussion about whether GameX 1 is better than GameX 2 and so on, but if you call me out, you know I'm going to answer. Especially, if YOU call me out, Sylent.

That's the best thing you've said yet. However if you really want to disscuss which game in a series is better i'd be more then willing to debate you on it, just so long as you don't just say, "it sucks." I do beleive that you're not a fanboy, but i've been wrong before.

Christ now i'm tired.

[shoes23]

This is very True some games just get better with sequels

but some like Madden and Tony Hawk add more features then new gameplay @_@

It's FOOTBALL...how exactly are the creators of football games supposed to present their product. Essentially since the inception of football videogames (and the actual sport for that matter), the concept has been the same...because it's football. All the devolopers can do is add new features because its played the same every year, follows the same rules every year, and plays exactly as it has since football abolished the leather helmet. It seems to me that the people that hate on Madden aren't even fans of football! Everyone else who I talk to (who enjoy football) find the games to be spectacular year after year.

[PS2Hawk]

I like sequals... the only time a sequal really isn't welcome is if its nothing but Shovelware... a good example of this would be Devil May Cry 2. It was a poorly done sequal put out quickly just to cash in on the popularity of the first game. As long as that isn't the case, bring on the sequal :)

Yep I think thats the best way to define them, perfect example would be GTA, they always add stuff so it feels new....

[Sylentwulf]

My reply:
What Njisca said.

I don't LIKE a lot of popular games either, but I certainly can;t say they suck. I though jak and daxter was a boring choppy game where I kept getting lost and could see absolutely no point at all in continuing, yet it's fairly common knowledge that it's a decent game and pretty popular. That doesn't mean I run around screaming it all sucks.

Trying an RPG for one hour counts as nothing, especially DW4, that's why I asked. If you had said 10-20 hours, sure, then you can say that you didn't like it I suppose.

[swlovinist]

I think that a sequel today is somewhat of a different ballgame all together. Sequels of the past in general seemed not as pressured and immediately pumped out year after year(minus sports titles). They were usually an attempt to make an improvement upon a game, or at least an attempt to usually take gameplay into a new direction. This was somewhat easier, as with the revolution of graphics in the past 20 years along with the constant addition to buttons for gameplay. The past 5 years have really slowed down in innovation and creativity. The same basic controller design is being used(Playstation 2). Development costs have skyrocketed, making a sequel more of an extension of the original game to extend profits. There is alot of pressure these days to not only have a sucessful game, but to take that sucessful game and make a trilogy or even a franchise. The bottom line is that we are playing the same franchise games over and over, without seeing anything new. A sequel in todays world has become stale and uncreative. Unless there is different way we play our current games, I fear that we will see more of the same with just better graphics. I want to add to my very general statement that I am ok with sequels, but when it becomes the standard of the game community to make Mega Man 25 it becomes pretty stupid :roll:

[WiseSalesman]

Hello again, folks. This'll be the only post I can make today, as I'll be working till midnight. Here we go.

Njiska -


After reading your first post i was ready to tear you a new one and beleive me i would've.

ahahahahahahaha.....good one. LOL


a whole lot of things about newer features in popular game sequels including MGS and HL

Once again, try to listen to me and really understand this. NOT EVERYONE BELIEVE THAT NEW/MORE = BETTER. HL 1 had the better story and, in my opinion, the better atmosphere and level design. Therefore, gravity gun or not, I place it above HL2. Was HL2 a bad game? Absolutely not. But I don't automatically assume it was better because of the changes made. Likewise with the MGS series, yes they added a lot of things to MGS2 and MGS3, but they also took away basic gameplay elements. To be honest with you, I don't LIKE the first person view for shooting. I enjoyed it more when I could just fire from the standard perspective. I thought the camo system, while intersting, was mostly just a hindering annoyance. The storyline/dialogue in MGS1 leaps and bounds above that of MGS2, and I believe it is slightly better than MGS3s. I could go on and on and on, but what's the point? You want me to do that, we can do it through PM and e-mail. Then I'll write you a detailed dissertation of what I feel the checks and balances of each game and its respective sequel are.



BTW the preferences you posted help to illustrate my point. Even though we have different tastes, we can see that there are a lot of worth sequels out there. this is the kind of post WiseSalesman should've made. Kudous to you.

Ah yes. Because he didn't disagree with your "sequels are better" mentality, he's quite bit more rational than I could ever be. :roll: Really, would we even be having this conversation if instead of "they all sucked" I had written "while I respect your right to enjoy these games, and realize that for some people they must be the absolute pinnacle of video gaming greatness, I respectfull request to disagree with you on this point, as I was not able to enjoy any game from the series, and therefore do not feel that they are very good games"?. Honestly, there's no difference between that and what I said, except for abbreviation. You saw the word "suck" and launched into instant "h3 1ss F4NB0Y!1!" mode, instead of checking to see if I had ever expressed a preference for anything in particular. For the record, if you want to consider me a fanboy, please explain to me what, pray tell, I am a fanboy of, I own all the next generation consoles and games for all of them. I play all genres except for sports. I play games made by any company. Fanboy? How?


I say to each their own and in truth there's no situation where were all gonna agree on which game in a series is the best.

Woah! Something rational! I totally agree with you here.


But at least we can see that over all sequels to good games often out do the original.

...and then it goes right out the window.


McDonalds is not top quality cusine, but that's not what it's intended to be. It's meant to be fast food and in general opinion, while it may not be the best, it certainly does not suck as far as fast food is concerned.

Tupac was in fact a master poet and Hitler was a fantastic leader, when he was elected.

O_O I can never lend any creedence to any opinion you ever have, ever, from now on. Any time I see you post a opinion, I will either take it to mean the exact opposite or ignore it outright because, damn. Holy shit, McDonalds is some of the worst fast food on the planet, in my opinion, and certainly some of the most nutritionally devoid. I've spent the last six years studying literature - Tupac barely deserves to be called a poet, let alone a master. As far as "Hitler was a fantastic leader"...shit, I'll just leave that one alone.


some things about the Resident Evil gameplay changes

I'll admit I've barely played RE4, but there you go again, assuming that alterations in gameplay absolutely must equal better gameplay. Not everyone believes that.


However if you really want to disscuss which game in a series is better i'd be more then willing to debate you on it, just so long as you don't just say, "it sucks."

I don't have a particular urge to defend my opinions on these games. At the moment, I'm mostly defending myself and my personal integrity. That said, if you would like the rationale or reasoning behind my choices for any particular game or series I would be happy to provide them. Also, a word of advice. You're not going to "rip me a new one" over the internet. Threatening me just makes you sound ridiculous. And as far as giving someone with six times your experience here advice on how to post...uh, thanks but no thanks. Let's stick to the issues, alright?
---------

Alright, with that out of the way: Sylent.


I don't LIKE a lot of popular games either, but I certainly can;t say they suck. [jak and daxter etc.] That doesn't mean I run around screaming it all sucks.

I'm not "screaming" that anything sucks. I'm calmly giving my opinions that they suck. I simply bolded the words in that post to distinguish mine from the original poster's. If it is my opinion that a game "sucks", then I am not "wrong" for saying so. I can acknowledge that some people like games I don't. I can acknowledge the games are popular. It does NOT mean that I have to acknowledge that they are quality. That is a matter of opinion, period. Some people might like, say, Mighty Bomb Jack for NES, largely considered one of the worst games ever made. They don't have to believe the game sucks, but that won't stop me from thinking so. If you want me to explain WHY I think certain series/games suck, I'll gladly do so. Leave your name, and I'll forward you all lengthy PMs and or e-mails on the subject. I do enjoy that kind of writing.


Trying an RPG for one hour counts as nothing, especially DW4, that's why I asked. If you had said 10-20 hours, sure, then you can say that you didn't like it I suppose.

Please tell me you're joking. What is it you do for a living that you have SO much time that you can play a game for 20 HOURS before deciding you don't like it? Do you give every game 10 - 20 hours of play before deciding to quit? Did you play DMC for 10 hours before deciding you hated it? I don't know about you, but I have a full-time job, and I'm a full time student. I'm LUCKY if I have 10 hours of free time per week, and I'm sure as hell not going to spend it playing a game I don't enjoy.

[Sylentwulf]

BTW the preferences you posted help to illustrate my point. Even though we have different tastes, we can see that there are a lot of worth sequels out there. this is the kind of post WiseSalesman should've made. Kudous to you.

Ah yes. Because he didn't disagree with your "sequels are better" mentality, he's quite bit more rational than I could ever be. :roll: Really, would we even be having this conversation if instead of "they all sucked" I had written "while I respect your right to enjoy these games, and realize that for some people they must be the absolute pinnacle of video gaming greatness, I respectfull request to disagree with you on this point, as I was not able to enjoy any game from the series, and therefore do not feel that they are very good games"?. Honestly, there's no difference between that and what I said, except for abbreviation. You saw the word "suck" and launched into instant "h3 1ss F4NB0Y!1!" mode, instead of checking to see if I had ever expressed a preference for anything in particular. For the record, if you want to consider me a fanboy, please explain to me what, pray tell, I am a fanboy of, I own all the next generation consoles and games for all of them. I play all genres except for sports. I play games made by any company. Fanboy? How?

YES, this IS a big difference! Saying these games suck, and I didn't like this series is a HUGE difference. The games DON'T suck, you just didn't like them, THAT'S fine. Personally, I don't give a damn that the two towers got blown up, it doesn't affect me, but saying that it didn't matter or was unimportant would just be ludicrous.





McDonalds is not top quality cusine, but that's not what it's intended to be. It's meant to be fast food and in general opinion, while it may not be the best, it certainly does not suck as far as fast food is concerned.

Tupac was in fact a master poet and Hitler was a fantastic leader, when he was elected.

O_O I can never lend any creedence to any opinion you ever have, ever, from now on. Any time I see you post a opinion, I will either take it to mean the exact opposite or ignore it outright because, damn. Holy shit, McDonalds is some of the worst fast food on the planet, in my opinion, and certainly some of the most nutritionally devoid. I've spent the last six years studying literature - Tupac barely deserves to be called a poet, let alone a master. As far as "Hitler was a fantastic leader"...shit, I'll just leave that one alone.

While I personally agree that mcdonalds and tupac suck unholy assphincter, they don't suck, or mcdonalds wouldn't be on every square mie on the entire friggin planet. If it sucked that bad, people JUST WOULDN'T GO TO IT.




some things about the Resident Evil gameplay changes

I'll admit I've barely played RE4, but there you go again, assuming that alterations in gameplay absolutely must equal better gameplay. Not everyone believes that.
It's generally accepted that the changes made in RE4 gameplaywise DID INDEED make the series better. You even say you haven't played it, maybe you';ll think it blows any other RE out of the water, don't make an opinion on something you don't know about. [/quote]



Alright, with that out of the way: Sylent.


I don't LIKE a lot of popular games either, but I certainly can;t say they suck. [jak and daxter etc.] That doesn't mean I run around screaming it all sucks.

I'm not "screaming" that anything sucks. I'm calmly giving my opinions that they suck. I simply bolded the words in that post to distinguish mine from the original poster's. If it is my opinion that a game "sucks", then I am not "wrong" for saying so. I can acknowledge that some people like games I don't. I can acknowledge the games are popular. It does NOT mean that I have to acknowledge that they are quality. That is a matter of opinion, period. Some people might like, say, Mighty Bomb Jack for NES, largely considered one of the worst games ever made. They don't have to believe the game sucks, but that won't stop me from thinking so. If you want me to explain WHY I think certain series/games suck, I'll gladly do so. Leave your name, and I'll forward you all lengthy PMs and or e-mails on the subject. I do enjoy that kind of writing.
OK, screaming was a bad choice I suppose, but the fact is, no matter how I phrase it, when someone starts a thread about mighty game hyper x - anyone who goes into that thread and simply states "this game and the whole series sucks" is not going to sound intelligent. If you don't have anything creative to say, just don't say it.




Trying an RPG for one hour counts as nothing, especially DW4, that's why I asked. If you had said 10-20 hours, sure, then you can say that you didn't like it I suppose.

Please tell me you're joking. What is it you do for a living that you have SO much time that you can play a game for 20 HOURS before deciding you don't like it? Do you give every game 10 - 20 hours of play before deciding to quit? Did you play DMC for 10 hours before deciding you hated it? I don't know about you, but I have a full-time job, and I'm a full time student. I'm LUCKY if I have 10 hours of free time per week, and I'm sure as hell not going to spend it playing a game I don't enjoy.

Well, DMC has a TOTAL gameplay of around 10 hours probably, so playing THAT for one hour is fairly reasonable. And from what I hear the gameplay stays similar the entire time. Playing ANY RPG for 1 hour is not going to give you a decent feel for that rpg. That's like watching the first 1-2 episodes out of an anime series, it's probably a 75% chance that you'll think the series is stupid until it's fleshed out more in later episodes.

[njiska]

TO WiseSalesman:

Holy merde.

Look you can like and dis-like what ever you want, but we're not talking about personal preferance we're talking about logic and common consensus.

Oh and i never called you a fanboy, i simple said that you sounded like a fanboy. If you simple state that something sucks, without offering any reasons to back it up you sound like a fanboy. I don't require that you politely disagree with me. Hell be a prick it will only make you look more uncredible. All i require, if you don't want to be thought of as a fanboy, is an explantion.

I think Game X sucks, because....

I Disagree because...

I have some idea what i'm talking about because...

You're only fanning the flames. My advice, step back before you get burned.

To Sylentwulf: Thanks for getting the point. It's nice to come on here for once and see i've already been backed up by someone who gets "it". I'm amazed how many people can't get past there own opinion.

I hate MacDonalds, don't really like tupac, and i just plain don't like Final Fantasy after FFVI. But at least i can acknowledge that they suck in my opinion, not that the actually suck.

To PS2Hawk:

You may have sound like a fanboy sometimes, but at least you were fun to argue with. I wish you were WiseSalesman.

[Daria]

Whoops...my bad. I thought that said Dragon Warrior, not Dragon Quest. Still, however, DW1 is the only game of the series I've ever been able to enjoy. The sequels were always...I don't know...boring by the numbers RPGs to me.

"By the numbers"? And the original wasn't? Granted being the first console RPG, DW wrote the numbers. But the game's nothing if not barebones.

I'm not saying you have to "like" the rest of the series. That's your subjective opinion. But to acknowledge technical improvement is an objective fact. And you can not sit there and deny the series has undergone gross evolution simply because you "didn't like it". I don't care how many hours you did or did not put into the game.

Basically I'm in agreement with Sylent Wolf. to say something is bad is not the same as saying you didn't like it. As you can like bad games and dislike good ones. Persoanlly I didn't care for Final Fantasy VI, but I'll never claim that it's anything but a good RPG. However I adore Guardian's Crusade which is mediocre at best.

[njiska]

Whoops...my bad. I thought that said Dragon Warrior, not Dragon Quest. Still, however, DW1 is the only game of the series I've ever been able to enjoy. The sequels were always...I don't know...boring by the numbers RPGs to me.

"By the numbers"? And the original wasn't? Granted being the first console RPG, DW wrote the numbers. But the game's nothing if not barebones.

I'm not saying you have to "like" the rest of the series. That's your subjective opinion. But to acknowledge technical improvement is an objective fact. And you can not sit there and deny the series has undergone gross evolution simply because you "didn't like it". I don't care how many hours you did or did not put into the game.

Basically I'm in agreement with Sylent Wolf. to say something is bad is not the same as saying you didn't like it. As you can like bad games and dislike good ones. Persoanlly I didn't care for Final Fantasy VI, but I'll never claim that it's anything but a good RPG. However I adore Guardian's Crusade which is mediocre at best.

You get the whole innovation thing. I'm not a big DW (althought i prefer to call it Dragon Quest because it sounds better) fan so i don't have the experience with the games to comment on this particular problem.

However it's worth noting that WiseSalesman doesn't think innovation makes games better.