New games on old systems…why not?

[smokehouse]

You know, a buddy and myself were having a turbo nerd gaming discussion the other day. The topic, why won’t anyone make new titles for older systems? With hard memory being as cheap as it gets and with they’re being countless millions of older game systems floating around out there, why not? With some decent funding and some good programmers you could be making NES, SNES, Genesis and Sega CD titles in no time. I’m not sure how the legal end would work but I’m sure Sega would be very cooperative and I imagine Nintendo could be persuaded to allow for the SNES and NES development.

How about new Neo Geo titles? How amazing would that be? You could actually start making good adventure titles and possibly…..a RPG!

Maybe I’m an idiot, maybe I don’t know what I’m talking about but these seems that with some decent funding it would do well. Hell, I know the gaming magazines would help out, imagine on how they would jump on a GOOD new SNES title!

[njiska]

Um, because of basic business logic? That's like asking why people aren't still making things on Beta.

[roushimsx]

Good Deal Games (http://www.gooddealgames.com/Publishing.html)

[smokehouse]

Um, because of basic business logic? That's like asking why people aren't still making things on Beta.

You’re comparing apples to oranges. One is a computer language that is no longer used as an OS, the other is a gaming system. Do you have retro systems? If so then why? According to your logic the GC replaced the SNES which replaced the NES so you should get rid of the older systems in favor of the new ones. A computer running only DOS is next to useless. A NES is not.

A sealed copy of Final Fantasy II or II sells for hundreds. If re-released by square, they could charge $75-100 a piece in limited sale and I guarantee they would sell. The same goes for hundreds of other games.

If small batch games make their way on the market and are really good, they will sell.

[Garry Silljo]

I think that he meant Beta as the rival of VHS (which also near obsolete), not as a dead computer language.

[njiska]

You’re comparing apples to oranges. One is a computer language that is no longer used as an OS, the other is a gaming system. Do you have retro systems? If so then why? According to your logic the GC replaced the SNES which replaced the NES so you should get rid of the older systems in favor of the new ones. A computer running only DOS is next to useless. A NES is not.

A sealed copy of Final Fantasy II or II sells for hundreds. If re-released by square, they could charge $75-100 a piece in limited sale and I guarantee they would sell. The same goes for hundreds of other games.

If small batch games make their way on the market and are really good, they will sell.

But they'll only sell to us, the collector and retro gamers. I can't beleive that there's enough of a market to justify the development costs of any NEW good games. Small original re-releases will sell good, but anything new would have to be made by small groups in there spare time because I don't think any actual developer could afford it. Besides they're all tied up developin for new systems that will take even more development resourfces.

I'd rather just enjoy classic style games on new systems like Metal Slug 6 will be one day.

[jajaja]

I do agree with njiska, its simply not a big enough marked for it. With all the kids today with their Xboxes and gamecubes. They want gfx gfx and gfx, not old "crap".

Of course, I wish they would start making NES, SNES and Neo Geo games again today, it would be damn cool.
If they made, lets say 2000 copies of a NES game today I bet it would sold pretty quickly. But I dot think they would make any huge money on that small amount of copies.

I wish Lucas Arts and Sierra would start making the old 2D adventure games again, but that will never happend unfortunatly :(

[njiska]

I think that he meant Beta as the rival of VHS (which also near obsolete), not as a dead computer language.

Yeah i think if i had said laser disc it would've been a better comparision.

The point is business has moved on to bigger things.

[anagrama]

Maybe I’m an idiot, maybe I don’t know what I’m talking about

Basically, you nailed it right there.

a) In the VAST majority of cases, the costs of manufacture and production would greatly outweigh the potential profits - yes, us collectors and retro-fiends would snap them up, but you must be living in cloud-cuckoo-land if you think your average "casual" gamer would be interested in a new Sega CD game.

b) Retailers simply wouldn't stock them - all their display units are these days designed for DVD-size cases, and mainstream retailers also tend to get pissy about stocking for more than 3-4 different formats.

c) There already are "new old games" being released for the hobbyist market by folks like Good Deal Games (linked above), the Goat Store, and various homebrewers.


I imagine Nintendo could be persuaded to allow for the SNES and NES development.

ROFL

[Cmosfm]

Like anagrama said.

There's no market for it besides DP members and other hardcore classic games, which make up 1% or less of the gaming population.

And even then, *I* Wouldn't buy them, and neither would half of the users here, unless it was somethng simply amazing.

[smokehouse]

Good Lord!

There’s no need for the kick in the nuts fellas.

I was going to go into more detail but it seems that my logic is completely lost on this one. Oh well. Just keep insulting me some more…..

For a minuet there I thought I was on another forum with these generated responses…

[njiska]

I wish Lucas Arts and Sierra would start making the old 2D adventure games again, but that will never happend unfortunatly :(

Sadly that's true becuase i really miss the good old days. The closest thing i've played to a classic adventure game in recent history was Still Life, which was actually pretty good. The adventure company is putting out some decent titles.

[pragmatic insanester]

they did re-issue ff2 (snes). its on the Final Fantasy Anathologies disc, upgraded too.

the only way you can really make/sell "new old" games is by hacking/creating roms, slapping them into a cart, and making a cool sticker.

which i wish someone would do for The Shadow (snes)

[swlovinist]

Smokehouse, I am hearing what you are saying, and I can speak for many on this forum that we are not trying to insult you. I think it is a novel idea, one that has been around since the mid to late 90's when Atari Homebrew scene was starting. The problem is that although it NEEDS to happen, it probably wont. Others have said it, we are the 1 to 5 percent of the gaming community. While an atari game can be a one man show, it is a whole different story when it comes to NES, SNES, and more current systems. New games for old systems can happen, but likely wont on a large scale due to the costs of producing large amounts of games that are very niche. Atari Age, Packrat Games, Good deal games, The Goat Store, are but a few stores that carry "new titles". I bet you can ask them that sales of these games are more for the "love" than the profit, which will always keep it underground. Personally, if retrogaming goes to a larger scale, it will be muddled. I like it just the way it is.

[jajaja]

I wish Lucas Arts and Sierra would start making the old 2D adventure games again, but that will never happend unfortunatly :(

Sadly that's true becuase i really miss the good old days. The closest thing i've played to a classic adventure game in recent history was Still Life, which was actually pretty good. The adventure company is putting out some decent titles.

You might want to check out Runaway too. Its a 2D adventure game released some years ago as english (been released as spanish and german or something before). I played throught it. I even wrote a walkthrough :)

I agree with smokehouse, no need to attack him just because he wrote something. What he said would be a great idea, but personaly I dont think (know) it will happend.

[njiska]

Sadly that's true becuase i really miss the good old days. The closest thing i've played to a classic adventure game in recent history was Still Life, which was actually pretty good. The adventure company is putting out some decent titles.

You might want to check out Runaway too. Its a 2D adventure game released some years ago as english (been released as spanish and german or something before). I played throught it. I even wrote a walkthrough :)

I agree with smokehouse, no need to attack him just because he wrote something. What he said would be a great idea, but personaly I dont think (know) it will happend.[/quote]

Sweet i'll make sure to check it out.

As for smokehouse. I don't think anyone is trying to attack him. You've got to except a certain level of critizism on any forum when you post something and the critizism here is both fair and apt. It's how it works. His idea is novel, it's just horribly impracticle and it's obivously imparticle to the majority of people here. As such anagrama using his words against him was fair (and really mild compared to some insults on here).

TO SMOKEHOUSE: Here are some answers to your questions you asked earlier that i didn't address:


You’re comparing apples to oranges. One is a computer language that is no longer used as an OS, the other is a gaming system.

Beta is a dead Sony format that competed with VHS. Comparing video mediums is just as valid as comparing game systems.


Do you have retro systems? If so then why?

Yes i own many retro systems and the reason i do is to recapture my lost youth. I don't really care about getting new games for them, i just want to re-enjoy my past. I love NES games but there are enough good ones that i don't care if they make new ones.


According to your logic the GC replaced the SNES which replaced the NES so you should get rid of the older systems in favor of the new ones. A computer running only DOS is next to useless. A NES is not.

That's not my logic that's what actually happened. The only people who didn't do that are the collectors like us. It's business. The NES was replaced by the SNES, which was replaced by the N64, which in turn was replaced by the GC, which will be replaced by the Revolution.

The same is true of music formats and video formats. Things change, time passes by, the new becomes the old and therefore the obsolete.

And you're comaprision with DOS hurts you're arguement. I have a DOS box so i can play DOS games that aren't compatible with windows. Things like Terra Nova (i miss looking glass). It's no less useful then a NES.

[Jumpman Jr.]

Because nobody wants to pay the price of a new game for an 8-bit game.

[Alex Kidd]

I don't think it's quite an impossibility as you all seem to claim. Didn't the Sega Master System have it's last game made in 1999... granted it was only in one country, but the fact remains it was a cheap system, that was cheap to program for, therefor even a little profit, is profit in the long run.
I'll just throw an example out to you guys as to how Smokehouse's idea COULD work.

By todays standards how easy/cheap would it be to create and program Shining Force II for the Genesis as an original title (assuming it had never been made)? I honestly don't know how much, but I'm betting it's low enough that it would be a fraction of what it cost in 1994. The most cost would probably go into the creative process as opposed to the technological. So why don't they make say Shining Force IV for the Genny? it'd be easy and it would certainly sell, maybe not a billion copies, but then not every game does, just as long as it turns a profit thats what counts.
You can go ahead and say that poeple want the latest in technology for graphics/sound/etc... but you can't deny that EBGames have their sections of second hand games for Genny,SNES,NES,etc... and why do they have them? not because they lost profits, but because they are making money, the system are out there and sold and being re-sold second hand. And why would Final Fantasy games be fetching over $100 if it's just an old game with shitty graphics that no one wants to play anyway... because people DO want to play them, maybe not as many, but the market is DEFINITELY there. And how many "greatest hits/collection/arcade classic/retro packs" are there to be found for ANY current gen system? TOO MANY... why keep buying age old software for a system way beyond what it takes to run these medeival games?
Nintendo recognized this and thought 'hey, if Joe is going on ebay and paying Bill $10 bucks for Metroid why shouldn't we keep selling it ourselves?' and then they did, only rather than selling NES carts they emulated it onto the GBA. Which I admit was probably cheaper than getting a plant up and running to manufactur NES carts when they already had plenty of GBA cartridge hardware on hand, plus it would help sell their new system.
Maybe emulation of old systems on new systems would help bridge this gap of obsolete systems having the potential to play good games even today (at a fraction of development costs).
But yeah, I must say it's only plausible in theory because you gotta remember these businesses aren't out there trying to give you a product you'll truly enjoy, they want to make money, and an enjoyable product is just one of the many "factors" that go into that process!

Alex Kidd

[BrokenFlight]

I have a friend who's developing a PC game and when I asked him to make a megadrive game for me (not expectant of anything, I might add) he said it was a stupid idea and called me a nerd. Pfffft. He's the computer programmer. I think one of his reasons was because he would need development equipment which is now hard to get hold of. He would also need to know about the development program and how to type the code.

I reckon if it was a really good game you could charge over £20 and keep numbers limited so it retains its value. After all, Streets of Rage 3 and Phantasy Star go for over £30. Production costs for cartridges must have gone down in the last 10 years.

[Graham Mitchell]

I may regret taking you on with this, but oh well.



Yes i own many retro systems and the reason i do is to recapture my lost youth. I don't really care about getting new games for them, i just want to re-enjoy my past. I love NES games but there are enough good ones that i don't care if they make new ones.


See, not everybody owns and uses these machines for the same reasons you do. Personally, I play older games because I appreciate them as art, and I'm interested in seeing the historical progression of gaming firsthand (and finding out what the fuck went wrong LOL !) It's like exploring the back catalog of a band you like, or investigating that Slits album from 1978 because another musician you liked listed it as an influence. I'm not out to recapture my lost youth at all, and from the nature of Smokehouse's suggestions, I suspect he may feel similarly about this.

This has been an idea me and my friend have talked about for years. We would both be interested in something like this if it came about (and he's not a DP user or a collector in any way. )

This all comes down to opinion, really. The broad difference of opinions here is really interesting though. Everybody's either really for this or against it. I wonder if that has anything to do with why it'll never happen.

[anagrama]

Didn't the Sega Master System have it's last game made in 1999... granted it was only in one country, but the fact remains it was a cheap system, that was cheap to program for, therefor even a little profit, is profit in the long run.

Not really the best example since the majority of TecToy's exclusive SMS releases were either GameGear ports, canned European games or simple graphics hacks - there's only 4 titles that were actually original, and all of those are pretty awful. And the last new games released there were in 1997, only a year or two after the last European releases.

[njiska]

I may regret taking you on with this, but oh well.

I appreciate that.


See, not everybody owns and uses these machines for the same reasons you do. Personally, I play older games because I appreciate them as art, and I'm interested in seeing the historical progression of gaming firsthand (and finding out what the fuck went wrong LOL !) It's like exploring the back catalog of a band you like, or investigating that Slits album from 1978 because another musician you liked listed it as an influence. I'm not out to recapture my lost youth at all, and from the nature of Smokehouse's suggestions, I suspect he may feel similarly about this.

See I agree with you there. I actually do apreciate the games as art (i've been trying to find out where we went wrong as well) but the fact is that i like remembering the era, but I don't want to go back to just 2 buttons and horrible limitations on story and gameplay. See art evolves with time and as such if you really love the art you wouldn't want to take a step back. You want to look at the influences not try make them. Appreciate the games for what they were, but accept that things have evolved. Making games for old systems just doesn't make sense. Make them for the current consoles but make them in the old style.

Perhaps i should've been more clear when i said want to recapture my youth. I want to experience everything i enjoyed back then how it was. That's why i get real carts instead of just emulating. That's why i'm building an arcade cabnit. I want to visit the past, not get stuck in it.


This has been an idea me and my friend have talked about for years. We would both be interested in something like this if it came about (and he's not a DP user or a collector in any way. )

I'm not opposed to playing new games for the NES. I just don't think it could be profitable and i honestly don't beleive that any company would do it because it would cost more to develope then it would make. The only new NES games we are going to see are going to come from the Homebrew scene and that's been happening for years.


This all comes down to opinion, really. The broad difference of opinions here is really interesting though. Everybody's either really for this or against it. I wonder if that has anything to do with why it'll never happen.

What can i say to that. The people for it, want more games for old systems and i'm not entirely sure why. If you want to make a classic style game that's one thing, but do it for a modern console so it can be profitable like SNK is. The people against it know that it's a foolish business decision because it's just how the world works. Making a game for the NES just doesn't make sense. Not to mention that we, the collectors, the ones who still have NES's hooked up to our tv's, are a very small portion of the over game market.

Bottom line, why make a game for an out-of-date weak system when you have more freedom to do it right on a newer more powerful console. It's the game that matters, not the hardware.

[Jorpho]

Well, there are projects like Grand Theft Endo and many fanmade translations (such as Beggar Prince), but no one really expects to make much money off anything like that, I think.


I wish Lucas Arts and Sierra would start making the old 2D adventure games again, but that will never happend unfortunatly :(

The fanmade 2D adventure scene is alive and well! Check out the likes of The Adventures of Fatman or 5 Days a Stranger, among many others.

[Graham Mitchell]

Bottom line, why make a game for an out-of-date weak system when you have more freedom to do it right on a newer more powerful console. It's the game that matters, not the hardware.


Because I really don't feel that they're doing it better on a more powerful console. They're getting too caught up on aesthetics, marketing, voice acting, graphic tricks, etc., and forgetting to make the game a meaningful experience in and of itself.

Like you say, it's the game that matters, not the hardware. In my mind, if you strip away all of these bells and whistles of the new hardware, and remove the associated distraction from the developers and the financial hemorrhage from the companies that fund them, you are going to force people to come up with something more innovative, more creative, and more unique that has to grab people's attention because of it's substance, not because of its outward appearance.

Look at how dull PC gaming has got. You've got like two genres left in that platform. Space Quest IV is an infinitely more entertaining and enriching experience for me than any first-person shooter has ever been. That includes Metroid Prime. It's just my opinion, but one that I feel rather passionately about.

PS--I've noticed we've had some really stimulating topics here over the past couple of days! These little debates and discussions are the whole reason I joined DP, and stuff has been kind of dry lately. I'm glad people are still willing to talk about these things! :)

[Graham Mitchell]

Bottom line, why make a game for an out-of-date weak system when you have more freedom to do it right on a newer more powerful console. It's the game that matters, not the hardware.


Because I really don't feel that they're doing it better on a more powerful console. They're getting too caught up on aesthetics, marketing, voice acting, graphic tricks, etc., and forgetting to make the game a meaningful experience in and of itself.

Like you say, it's the game that matters, not the hardware. In my mind, if you strip away all of these bells and whistles of the new hardware, and remove the associated distraction from the developers and the financial hemorrhage from the companies that fund them, you are going to force people to come up with something more innovative, more creative, and more unique that has to grab people's attention because of it's substance, not because of its outward appearance.

Look at how dull PC gaming has got. You've got like two genres left in that platform. There's been way too much focus on graphics engines, not enough focus on content. Space Quest IV is an infinitely more entertaining and enriching experience for me than any first-person shooter has ever been. (That includes Metroid Prime.) It's just my opinion, but one that I feel rather passionately about.

PS--I've noticed we've had some really stimulating topics here over the past couple of days! These little debates and discussions are the whole reason I joined DP, and stuff has been kind of dry lately. I'm glad people are still willing to talk about these things! :)

[badinsults]

If the programming environments used for older systems were opened up, people would develop games for them. Right now, development tools for the nes are primitive, and on the snes, they are downright non-existant. Games don't have to be sold to be made.

[Muscelli]

i like hamburgers

[njiska]

Because I really don't feel that they're doing it better on a more powerful console. They're getting too caught up on aesthetics, marketing, voice acting, graphic tricks, etc., and forgetting to make the game a meaningful experience in and of itself.

That's a half truth. The problem today is the same one we had in the 80s, over-saturation. There's just too much crap out there. But you shouldn't generalize like that because there are still some really amazing games being made. Some examples of games that provide a rich experience from this generation include:

-Metal Gear Solid 3: Snake Eater
-Killer 7 (People will debate about the gameplay for years, but all in all it's the first game since MGS3 that has made me feel like i've gotten my money's worth)
- Eternal Darkness: Sanity's Reqeium
- Beyond Good & Evil (I didn't perfer it but many people do)
- Resident Evil 4
- Half-Life 2 (Even if you don't like FPS games this one does offer rich enviroments, solid gameplay, and a story i rather enjoyed)
- Contra: Shattred Soldier (It actually stayed true to it's roots)
- Katamari Damacy
- Devil May Cry
- Splinter Cell (Series)
- Rez
- Lumines
- Meteos
- Kirby Canvase Curse
- Nintendogs (not really a game but still top notch)
- Etc.

There are still great games being made if you look for them. The problem isn't so much the developers as it is the publishers who make the big finanial decisions. Sadly shit sells and that's why things like <insert crap sequel name here> get made.


Like you say, it's the game that matters, not the hardware. In my mind, if you strip away all of these bells and whistles of the new hardware, and remove the associated distraction from the developers and the financial hemorrhage from the companies that fund them, you are going to force people to come up with something more innovative, more creative, and more unique that has to grab people's attention because of it's substance, not because of its outward appearance.

Would you like to crucify Ken Kutaragi while we're at it? (It's always been a dream of mine.) Anyways you can't force people to make better games by taking away everything they have and saying, "Make something better on this relic". New tech isn't a curse it's a blessing. Imagine if all we had was the NES for 20 years? Everything you love made for a system after it wouldn't exist. Sooner or later you hit a plateu in development. See graphics aren't the only thing you gain from better tech, you also gain the ability to have more objects on the screen at once and that makes a huge difference. You also can't ignore graphics. For a game to be whole it must have everything. Gameplay, graphics, sound, story and immersion.

However your idea still has merit, it just goes to far. If you can remove the financial difficulty and pressure from the publishers then you will get better development. Taking away their tools just limits them and pisses them off.


Look at how dull PC gaming has got. You've got like two genres left in that platform. There's been way too much focus on graphics engines, not enough focus on content. Space Quest IV is an infinitely more entertaining and enriching experience for me than any first-person shooter has ever been. (That includes Metroid Prime.) It's just my opinion, but one that I feel rather passionately about.

You're clearly a person who doesn't like change. You like the classic style of gaming and that's fine, but it's a bias that i fear will limit you from giving some new games a fair shake. There are a lot of good new titles if you open your mind and give them a shot.

The PC is pretty dead, but it's dying not because of lack of innovation, but rather because gamers don't want to pay the upgrade costs to keep a PC up to date when they can get it for far less on a console.

You're opinion is noted, but your opinion, like mine, doesn't matter in the grand scheme of things. Personal preference of the masses is what determines the market. A market we don't control. If you want games for your NES, make them yourself.


PS--I've noticed we've had some really stimulating topics here over the past couple of days! These little debates and discussions are the whole reason I joined DP, and stuff has been kind of dry lately. I'm glad people are still willing to talk about these things! :)

Yeah things are certainly getting interesting.

[Jorpho]

If the programming environments used for older systems were opened up, people would develop games for them. Right now, development tools for the nes are primitive, and on the snes, they are downright non-existant. Games don't have to be sold to be made.

I thought there were some fairly sophisticated freeware tools available for the NES and SNES, no?

[smokehouse]

The entire reason I started this conversation was due to the fact the Neo Geo AES titles were sold for many, many years and are still sought after. I just can’t help that think that a good AES title would sell. Hell, King of Fighters (2000,2001,2002,2003), Metal Slug 4 and 5 (2003,2004?) all sold well. If Final Fantasy II/III was re-released by Square for the SNES (not a PS2 or Xbox remake, the real deal) I could only assume that it would sell. How about a re-release of the original Zelda (or any other sought after classic) for the NES. Original Packaging, original everything. No remake, no repackage, no GBA port.

This has worked for the toy industry (GI Joe, Transformers, etc), why not the gaming industry. Sure, ports are neat-o, but a real NES copy of Metroid sealed straight from Nintendo would be something that would sell. Not in astronomical numbers but in limited quantities. These games exist and the chipsets are cheap to make now, why not?

I know I’m just dreaming when I started this thread but its thoughts like this that make cool things happen. Sure, I know the way the industry works but it’s the industry that’s currently cramming so much shit into store display cases. I’m not a moron, I’m just trying to think outside the box a bit.

[Jorpho]

The entire reason I started this conversation was due to the fact the Neo Geo AES titles were sold for many, many years and are still sought after. I just can’t help that think that a good AES title would sell. Hell, King of Fighters (2000,2001,2002,2003), Metal Slug 4 and 5 (2003,2004?) all sold well.

And do you know how much those AES carts cost? Besides, the AES userbase is hardly extensive and "well" would be a relative term here. It's a unique console in many ways.

The only way I can see an NES cart from Nintendo selling very well would be in some cheap blister pack at the checkout of the toy store, with maybe a $5 price tag on it (or less). Seems to me it would rather cheapen the experience. In any case, the people who want to play Zelda or Metroid on an NES these days probably still have it already, or otherwise know how to obtain it easily enough.

[kirin jensen]

All I know is I'm dancin' like a monkey that there's a new O2 game at CGE2K5...

I think the retro market may just beginng to take off.

Look at how well the 2600 retro stuff is selling. I suspect that isn't just nostalgia buffs.

The new Flashback 2.0 can be modded to play carts - including homebrews. I'm excited to see if this helps homebrew sales and awareness.

[Jorpho]

Joe Consumer is never going to take apart his kids' new toy and start soldering at it.

[goatdan]

Okay, while I'm going to call you insane like a lot of other people did ;), I'll be very reasonable with you. Truthfully, I didn't read anyone else's responses, but here is the deal with why this wouldn't work:

First off, certain old companies who are still making a lot of money off their 2D properties will absolutely, under no circumstances allow for games to be released on these old systems. So even if you wanted to, it would be really tough.

Now, the bigger problem that I always bring up -- a lot of these systems had games that were done really, really good back in the day. How would you create a new game that would hold up using a small staff?

Well, lets say that you decide not to use a small staff. You're going to use a staff of four people to make a game. You'll pay them each $40,000 / year to program for you, and you'll expect this staff to make two titles per year.

Now, that means that you're spending $80,000 in wages for each game... but that's not all! As an employeer, you need to contribute tax money on behalf of the people who are working for you -- it's essentially a way the government makes it look like they're not taxing you that much, when they really are. So really, you're paying another $20,000 in taxes, so we're at $100,000 per game development now.

If you're going to take this game and sell it for $20.00, you would need to sell 5000 copies of the game to break even. But wait, we haven't even made the games yet! Lets say that you are going to mold and make your own cartridge casings, make new chips and burn the image on them, and solder them on. Oh yes, and make some nice packaging for this whole thing. Let's say that this only costs you $10.00 / unit. That would be a GOOD deal. Suddenly, instead of selling 5000 copies of a game, you're needing to sell at least 10,000 to break even.

10,000 units doesn't sound like much, but it is a HELL of a lot of games to try to move. Especially because you're only able to sell to one region. So that would be 200 games per state.

And as Cmosfm pointed out, there are a lot of people like him that still won't buy these games. Unless they fall into a certain molding, they don't count them as "real" games, and therefore they aren't worth getting. We have this problem a lot with the GOAT Store Dreamcast releases. Luckily, the Japanese public is still supporting the Dreamcast, and we are able to make our games non-region specific, but even so we haven't sold 10,000 copies of anything we've made.

We do sell a ton more games to Asia (probably a ratio of five sold in Asia to one sold in the US), and we are still selling very strongly, but we also haven't paid our developers to make the game. We sit in the same boat together, and we have the same risks and rewards.

And really, what you're proposing to do is exactly the type of thing that we do right now. It isn't homebrewing, as much as a lot of collectors want to put it in that range, but it would be making new professional games for old and retired consoles. The market simply wouldn't be there, and the cost it would take to resurrect the market would be extreme. Could it work? Yes. But you would literally need millions and millions (and the rights to remanufacture whatever console it was) to make it work.

(A little aside -- What is homebrewing exactly? Usually collectors say that it involves new games that are created by enterprising programmers for a console that is no longer supported, created by hand by either the programmer or the people that will eventually be selling it.

Our releases are new games that are created by enterprising programmers but produced in a professional production facility the same way Dreamcast games were actually made, and the games are sold mostly to a country in which games are still coming out, although slowly, for it.

And as for how long we'll keep making Dreamcast games? As much as we enjoy doing it, the fact that they sell so good in the Japanese market means that when that market starts failing us, we're probably not going to have too many more places to go. The Japanese Dreamcast releases are all but over now, and without a run of our games to sustain interest, they'll move on, and we'll no longer be able to afford getting the games professionally produced. Luckily, we have a bunch of games getting very close to production, but after these releases, that might just be the end of the line if they don't sell very strongly...)

The reason I went to that aside for a second is because it is a peek into us, which are basically doing exactly what you suggested. Our games are as real as they get. There are no cut corners. But it takes a lot of money to make these games, and it won't be worth it if we have another market drop off. Lets put it this way -- we need to sell a large number of copies to break even, and even with a large Asian fan base, that's hard to do. As Winston says in Ghostbusters, we have the tools and we have the talent to do this, but sometimes even that won't do the trick. I would never, ever try a market where we had to start up our own manufacturing line, as we would have to do with NES, SNES or Genesis (to create those games without canniblizing older games... yeesh...)

Sometimes, professional games made today don't sell more than 15,000 copies. And those are games released during the lifespan of a real system made by real programmers. Expecting you could sell even 5,000 NES or SNES games once would be insane.

Sorry to be so long winded, and sorry to sound so sad about it, but it's just true. :(

[heythere]

See, now I would GLADLY pay $50 for a new SNES game that is as enjoyable as Final Fantasy 2/4 instead of $25 for a new PS2 game that's got top of the line graphics and rave reviews.

Of course then again I've been hell bent to make a new SNES game for the past 4 years, so maybe I'm a little biased.

Still, I don't think smokehouse's idea is too far fetched at all. Sure, as an actual job, you'd be extremely lucky to make even $10,000 profit over the course of 2 years on a developed/released project that was made on a system that "died" 10 years ago. The idea, is completley moot, as long as you're doing it for profit.

But if you're more interested in trying to make a quality game for a system you grew up with, or heck, if you're really just interested in making a game in general, doing retro really isn't such a bad idea...

Unless Bungie/Microsoft is willing to help produce or publish your game idea...(Hahaha)
You're game focuses on stillframe hentai and will be sold in Japan...
You know 30-400 individuals who are personally indebted to you, willing to bleed for you, and have skill or talent with either programming, art, CGI, music, or sound FX...
Or you own a business and can afford to actually pay people for thier trade...

There just isn't really anything you can do to make a real game with today's technology. At least not on the big scale. I'd like to think small groups of people could get together and make a game like DoDonPachi for the PS2 that would actually sell and make profit, but even that's become impossible unless you have a huge bank account to begin with. A solid, quality, fun game for the next gen system nowadays takes so many people, so much time, and so much effort to make that's it's really just quite sickening. I just don't get it, every PS2 game I've rented lately has been crap, and yet it makes it out to the market. A paid dev team and at least one year of constant work amounts to... A half boiled medicore disgrace? All I've wanted from Konami lately was a game like Castlevania:SOTN on the PS2, on the big screen, NOT the eyeburn advance(no dig at CV:Aria of Sorrow, but I have the original GBA and without a backlit screen it's a (#*in pain to tell what's going on!). But Konami refuses to do that because 2d on the PS2 is just "too outdated". I'm glad Contra SS was made, I don't regret buying it, but I feel it's a bit lacking, especially in comparison to it's OLD predesessor, Contra Hard Corps, which gave me multiple levels, mutiple charecters, and multiple endings. Shadow Tower II remains a Japan only game simply because Sony deemed the graphics "too outdated" to justify allowing a US release. It's just hopeless to try and make a profitable game from scratch on a nextgen system without a major pool of money to back it all up.

But an oldschool system? Well, let's think about this...
The average PS2 game takes something like 40 staff members, if not more, to make right? How many Squeenix staff members are there doing *just* graphics for Final Fantasy now then say, back in 1994? I'm willing to bet the total staff for FF3/6 was less than the staff doing just the graphical stuff in the latest FF...

If you did want to make a game for, oh, say the SNES, what would you need...
A sound/music guy, a decent amount of programmers, a few graphical designers, and knowledge of the 65c816(doh!). Oh, and perhaps a cheap salary for all of them, perhaps enough to pay the bills... If you can't get them to work for you for free...

Whereas a PS2 game would require... A lot in the way of staff, design, coordination, time, and money.

Now of course it's not like you can pull together a staff out of thin air to make a SNES game, but I think it's strangely a much more stable idea to make a SNES game then to even attempt to make a PS2 game. If you get 10 devoted people, in a year you would have something you could market to the small percent of oldschoolers who still care about retro. Plus, since you have MUCH less of everything to manage - code, graphics, bugs, etc... You would actually have a good chance of making a fun game like The Legend Of Zelda because you can focus on the game itself and not all the overhead(plus you won't have to worry about Sony saying your graphics are too outdated for a FPSRPG).

For me, if I could find a Genesis, SNES, or PSX game developed in the year 2005 for sale on LikSang.com, I'd probabley shell out the $50-$60 for it. PS2 games though, they can wait, I've been burned my fair share of times...

Interestingly, Nintendo is supposedly going to support NES/SNES/N64 emulation through their new console - The Nintendo Revolution. Of course the downside is that they're going to charge for something that you can get on the net for free, but it makes me hope that if enough people show interest, maybe Nintendo might throw a few amatures together to either make or remake an NES/SNES/N64 game exclusively for the Revolution or something... Kind of like what they're doing for the eyeburn advance :p

[smokehouse]

Goatdan, I do agree with the pricing aspect. Note earlier I did not say it had to be a home brew project. If there are guys out there willing to spend millions developing a flying car or buying the Dallas Mavericks, there could be someone goofy enough to develop new old titles.

There is another thing, again, I’m not sure of the exact numbers due to the fact that I have tried to look them up but could find nothing BUT, the DC failed. Sure it has a bunch of loyal supporters but compared tot he SNES or Genesis, I would imagine that there are 4 SNES/Genesis units for every 1 DC. I would imagine that the user base would be higher.

Finally, I keep coming back to the resale thing. Older games, especially many SNES titles sell for big $$ on the used market. They do, it’s right there in black and white. The want for good SNES and Genesis titles is still there and EBAY has millions of sales to prove it. If done correctly and marketed right, it would sell. All this takes money, I know. A review in a big name gaming magazine coupled with quite a bit of online advertising would make an impact as well.

It could be done, flat fact. Since starting this topic I have done some research and seen many of the small batch titles made for the DC and Sega CD. While I imagine that these titles are decent, they are the types of titles that don’t sell well overall. Most puzzle titles on “dead” consoles don’t normally sell ridiculously well nor do they often generate much excitement. Note I said “most” so please don’t go out and dig up some off the wall, rare puzzle title worth $300 just to shove it in my face. A good solid RPG or adventure/action game is something we never see anymore (concerning retro consoles). I for one would enjoy a new RPG on the SNES. Would it sell, sure, not in the millions but I’m sure the people paying big $$ for old titles would give it a shot if it got good reviews.

Tell you what; I have 3 on the $150 Million Lotto tonight. If I win I’ll put up the $$ and do this, how does that sound?

[Graham Mitchell]

You're clearly a person who doesn't like change. You like the classic style of gaming and that's fine, but it's a bias that i fear will limit you from giving some new games a fair shake. There are a lot of good new titles if you open your mind and give them a shot.


No, I do give new titles a fair shake. I've played many of the games on your list. And, yes, those are excellent games. I don't fear change, though. My whole complaint is that things have stopped changing for the most part. Maybe you're right, then, the problem is oversaturation.

I've noted some DS games on your list; the DS is a weaker machine, all things considered. But the thing just oozes with innovation. That's what I want to see on a next-gen console.

[Jorpho]

Finally, I keep coming back to the resale thing. Older games, especially many SNES titles sell for big $$ on the used market. They do, it’s right there in black and white. The want for good SNES and Genesis titles is still there and EBAY has millions of sales to prove it.

Millions of sales? :hmm:

I daresay the high prices for certain SNES games just comes down to supply and demand.

[Garry Silljo]

Yes, you do have to remember that most of these SNES games selling for over $100 are established critically acclaimed titles that everyone knows and most have played. A new game is a gamble and wont fetch the same price, for the purchase doesnt hold the promise of an established game.

[Nature Boy]

I just don't see it ever working and I don't know if I want it to work anyway. I prefer the homebrew scene and the passion that exists there right now, and I don't need any commercial releases for my older consoles.

For the more popular machines there are like 700ish games released in North America anyway, which means I'm getting "new games" all the time!

[goatdan]

Goatdan, I do agree with the pricing aspect. Note earlier I did not say it had to be a home brew project. If there are guys out there willing to spend millions developing a flying car or buying the Dallas Mavericks, there could be someone goofy enough to develop new old titles.

Well, when that person comes along... Oh wait, that is what I'm doing now, even though you dismiss my ideas about it. Seriously, if there was a lot of money to be made, I wouldn't be standing alone here.


There is another thing, again, I’m not sure of the exact numbers due to the fact that I have tried to look them up but could find nothing BUT, the DC failed. Sure it has a bunch of loyal supporters but compared tot he SNES or Genesis, I would imagine that there are 4 SNES/Genesis units for every 1 DC. I would imagine that the user base would be higher.

How much can you get a Dreamcast for nowadays? Usually, about $20 to $30.00. You can still buy Dreamcast games in a bunch of stores. Sure, the Dreamcast "failed," but the installed userbase of it is much higher than I think you would expect, and unlike a lot of the SNES / Genesis consoles that have been thrown out / abandoned with time, the Dreamcast is still relatively new.


Finally, I keep coming back to the resale thing. Older games, especially many SNES titles sell for big $$ on the used market. They do, it’s right there in black and white. The want for good SNES and Genesis titles is still there and EBAY has millions of sales to prove it. If done correctly and marketed right, it would sell. All this takes money, I know. A review in a big name gaming magazine coupled with quite a bit of online advertising would make an impact as well.

You're right. Established, popular series like Final Fantasy and games like Chrono Trigger can get big money. But that's because they are established and popular. Who is going to pay $100.00 for a game that they've never heard of before? Especially if collectors refuse to recognize it as a game?


It could be done, flat fact. Since starting this topic I have done some research and seen many of the small batch titles made for the DC and Sega CD. While I imagine that these titles are decent, they are the types of titles that don’t sell well overall. Most puzzle titles on “dead” consoles don’t normally sell ridiculously well nor do they often generate much excitement. Note I said “most” so please don’t go out and dig up some off the wall, rare puzzle title worth $300 just to shove it in my face. A good solid RPG or adventure/action game is something we never see anymore (concerning retro consoles). I for one would enjoy a new RPG on the SNES. Would it sell, sure, not in the millions but I’m sure the people paying big $$ for old titles would give it a shot if it got good reviews.

So you looked up stuff on the internet and found a few games and said that they weren't the right type... Okay, examine a few things:

1) Why were these games made instead of deep RPG games?

2) If this was such an obvious thing, why wouldn't people already be doing it?

3) Why is it that no one is funding these?

4) How would you get reviews out? How would you get magazines to review the game? I hate to tell you this, but I actually know a bunch of editors at various magazines, and it has resulted in TWO reviews over the past five years for products we have released.

5) How would you tell people about these games? Advertising doesn't grow on trees. If it costs you a certain amount to start an advertising campaign, you need to sell a certain amount to make the advertising campaign worth it. Could you do that? VERY doubtful.


Tell you what; I have 3 on the $150 Million Lotto tonight. If I win I’ll put up the $$ and do this, how does that sound?

That would be great. Come join the dark side. Just don't expect to make any money from it ever.

[smokehouse]

Dan,

I’m sorry if my last post made earlier this morning came across a insulting or arrogant, I really did not mean for it to be. All joking aside, if I did have the funds I would give it a shot. Why not. I would like to take a stab at a good 2-D RPG or adventure title. I think what you’re doing is amazing, please don’t get me wrong.

Something to the magnitude of a full on release with reviews and advertising would cost big $$ ad I fully understand that, I just whish I had the throw away funds to try it.

[heythere]

Ok, seriously, someone just needs to teach me everything there is to know about programming for the SNES and how to design an actual cart, and soon enough we'll have a few more extremely awesome games to play on the SNES and everyone will be happy...
(unless you live a 3rd world country, but hey who knows?)

Who's with me?

[Jorpho]

Ok, seriously, someone just needs to teach me everything there is to know about programming for the SNES and how to design an actual cart, and soon enough we'll have a few more extremely awesome games to play on the SNES and everyone will be happy...
(unless you live a 3rd world country, but hey who knows?)

http://www.zophar.net/tech/65816.html
http://snescentral.edgeemu.com/Development/index.htm
http://www.zophar.net/utilities/nesdev.html
http://bobrost.com/nes/
etcetra.

See also http://www.beggarprince.com/ .

[goatdan]

Dan,

I’m sorry if my last post made earlier this morning came across a insulting or arrogant, I really did not mean for it to be. All joking aside, if I did have the funds I would give it a shot. Why not. I would like to take a stab at a good 2-D RPG or adventure title. I think what you’re doing is amazing, please don’t get me wrong.

Something to the magnitude of a full on release with reviews and advertising would cost big $$ ad I fully understand that, I just whish I had the throw away funds to try it.

No big deal. I just don't want anyone on here thinking that it would be something simple to do, because it just isn't. Like I said, the only way I think it could be done is if you got the rights to re-release whatever console you were going to use (and it would have to be Geni, NES or SNES. Re-releasing the Jaguar or Master System would be suicidal). Without that, stores won't stock single games, and you'll just be stuck holding tons and tons of product with no where to go.


Ok, seriously, someone just needs to teach me everything there is to know about programming for the SNES and how to design an actual cart, and soon enough we'll have a few more extremely awesome games to play on the SNES and everyone will be happy...
(unless you live a 3rd world country, but hey who knows?)

Who's with me?

If you can get the permission of Nintendo to make and release said games, or if you have the time and the money to legally reverse engineer it and make new moldings, then the best of luck to you. Otherwise, just make a truly awesome game that can be emulated properly.