Atari FlashBack 2 [Archive] - Retrogaming Roundtable

stonic

10-05-2005, 12:13 AM

Nes

10-05-2005, 12:56 AM

And for the rest of us who have no idea what you're talking about, how about filling us in? (I know what a Flashback is. I have the first one)

Lady Jaye

10-05-2005, 09:19 AM

From what I gather, Quadrun (one of the rarest Atari 2600 games, programmed by Steve Woita, who posted above) is included on the Flashback 2.0. However, there should be some voice in the game, and the Flashback 2 doesn't actually have it (and it also has sound issues with other games), at least not in the first rev. of the console. Also, according to Stonic's post, there seems to already be several revisions of the Flashback 2.0.

See also this thread: http://www.digitpress.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=809897&highlight=#809897

Thanks for the heads up, Stonic. I now know that I'll stick to my Atari 2600 Jr.

Raedon

10-05-2005, 10:23 AM

Luckly I have an Atari 2600 Jr. I've always hoped the flashback 2 would work perfect but deep down I knew it would have some flaws similar to the flamiclones.

rbudrick

10-05-2005, 05:32 PM

Even if you take the units apart and look at the insides there's no way to tell? Wouldn't the manufacturer itself need at least some way to tell them apart?

-Rob

wgungfu

10-07-2005, 11:39 PM

Thanks for the info...Bummer that my voice is not working on the first batch of these things...Do you know if they've solved the problem? And if they did, when will the new batch be in stores? The only thing that I'm doing that's a bit weird in the game code is shuting down video to give me more CPU time to do my voice..I can't believe this stumped the hardware people !

Steve Woita 8-)
http://www.tinygames.com

Steve, only the initial Wallmart shipments that went out in August have that problem. (Walmart was the first to sign up, and consequently the first served). All the other locations (QVC, BestBuy, Target, EBGames, Gamestop, etc.) will have the correct sound. Walmart will also be getting the corrected units for their second shipment (after everyone else). Some AtariAge members already picked up some from the batch just coming out and reported an aok on the sound issue.

GarrettCRW

10-07-2005, 11:59 PM

Well, it's a good thing I didn't break down and go to Wal-Mart to get one, then. :/

About the HMOVES: What are they, and will later runs of the Flashback 2.0 fix that issue?

stonic

10-08-2005, 08:00 AM

Even if you take the units apart and look at the insides there's no way to tell? Wouldn't the manufacturer itself need at least some way to tell them apart?

The chip is probably marked differently, since it's a different run, but you can't exactly take it apart before you buy it, so that wouldn't be much help :/

Steve, only the initial Wallmart shipments that went out in August have that problem. (Walmart was the first to sign up, and consequently the first served). All the other locations (QVC, BestBuy, Target, EBGames, Gamestop, etc.) will have the correct sound....

Yeah, what I said ;)

About the HMOVES: What are they, and will later runs of the Flashback 2.0 fix that issue?

A programming trick that allows for more objects to appear on the screen, the result of which creates a little black line on the left side of the screen.

wgungfu

10-08-2005, 09:35 AM

http://www.digitpress.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=28509

It's not related to how you programmed it, Steve. The much-touted 100% compatible 2600-on-a-chip processor.... isn't. Design flaws in the TIA circuitry are to blame for the missing Quadrun voice, the missing footstep sounds of the robbers in Maze Craze, the missing "marching" sound in the Atari version of Millipede, etc.

It's not related to design flaws either, it was a fabrication issue thanks to them running the wrong version of a GDS file that was missing a sound channel element. The error was picked up and the correct GDS was supplied to the chip manufacturer. That's what went out in the initial Walmart batch because management didn'd deem it enough of a problem for the average consumer, and for collectors they felt it raised the collectibility factor.

There's also a flaw in how the chip handles HMOVEs, which affects a larger number of games (when using a modded system) - basically any game that relies on using HMOVE programming tricks. Some games have altered graphics (Missile Command) and some flat-out don't work.

That "flaw" occured when some of the engineers in the Hong Kong office (the chips are fabricated and the system manufactured in that region) made an unauthorized cosmetic fix that they thought would "improve" the original chip designs. Again, none of these problems were in the original proto unit or the demo/review units that were shown at E3 and lent out for reviews afterwords.

At least 3 versions of the system exist. Regarding the original released version, the version of Millipede included is the Atari-made one instead of GCC�s (as indicated on the packaging). The 2nd version has the GCC version, although it's unplayable b/c it puts out too many scan lines for most NTSC sets - enough to be considered a PAL game! (which means the screen rolls).

Actually, just 1 version with two different sets of rom/menu (Gizmo) chips. Both have the same main chip and hardware with the sound problem. The one hitting all the other stores now is the actual 2nd version (with the fixed sound problems).

The 3rd version fixes the TIA/sound problem. A 4th version is planned (for outside the U.S., and inside the U.S. if demand requires it) to fix all the incompatibility issues with running certain carts (on a modified system).

Units manufactured for overseas (Europe, Pan-Asia) and the 2nd fill orders for the US will have all the incompatibility issues corrected. These issues were discovered 4 or so weeks after the sound issue was addressed (see above about the Hong Kong office) and fixed as well. The next die of the chips in the next 500K batch will have more compatibility in 06' runs.

Supposedly Walmart got the first production-run units. Best Buy, QVC, and Target got the later versions. Keep in mind that (1) there's no way to tell which version you have until you take it home and plug it in, and (2) no recalls were done or planned.

Not supposedly, only Walmart got the first-run sound erred shipments because they were the first to sign up. All the units arriving at Best Buy, QVC, Target, EB, etc. are all the 2nd run.

It's a shame that once again what should have been a great little system was rushed out onto market with little or (more likely) no QA testing. It's one thing if it doesn't run certain actual carts........ a manual full of errors...... The kicker with this whole situation is, the "engineer" responsible for dropping the FB2 ball is already drumming up support for Flashback 3 :shameful:

With all do respect, all Atari Inc. management cared about was the unit supporting the 40 included games. Modding it to run carts voids the warranty - so they don't care about support other games. On the other hand, the proto system designed by the "engineer" (and the early 10 game review system I had) ran all the games flawlessly. The problems are a fabrication problem - end of story. This "engineer" that supposedly "dropped the ball" is actually the one that is pushing to make sure the revisions are done when management could really care less because the average consumer isn't going to know the difference. Secondly, the errors in the packed in manual were from the graphic arts/layout company that was used. They couldn't keep manual revisions straight for some reason (even though they were clearly labeled in the file names) and submitted a mishmash of revisions to the printer.

john_soper

10-09-2005, 04:29 AM

Good points Wgungfu, but between the Quadrun issue, cart imcompatibility, poorly programmed new games, screwed up manual, the Flashback I, and Atari's stock price; it's hard to be very impressed with the company.

My last job was in a firm making semiconductor chips and our screwups drove some customers away and led others to demand increased accountability methods. No one ever cared about our excuses.

But I still say it's worth the price just for the joysticks. And River Raid and Yar's Revenge are still a blast.

Sothy

10-09-2005, 04:48 AM

Ill pick one up.

Hey woita wanna hook me up with a quadrun cart?

stonic

10-11-2005, 12:10 AM

It's not related to design flaws either, it was a fabrication issue thanks to them running the wrong version of a GDS file that was missing a sound channel element. The error was picked up and the correct GDS was supplied to the chip manufacturer. That's what went out in the initial Walmart batch because management didn'd deem it enough of a problem for the average consumer, and for collectors they felt it raised the collectibility factor.

Ok, *production* flaws then... although that doesn't account for all the problems.

That "flaw" occured when some of the engineers in the Hong Kong office (the chips are fabricated and the system manufactured in that region) made an unauthorized cosmetic fix that they thought would "improve" the original chip designs. Again, none of these problems were in the original proto unit or the demo/review units that were shown at E3 and lent out for reviews afterwords.

Are you serious?! I've never heard of something like that happening before. How exactly can ANY production firm do somthing like this? Is there a clause in the contract that says "Do whatever the hell you want, regardless of what we ask for"? Is there even a contract?? Or is there nothing more than a verbal agreement or gentleman's handshake? Wow...

Actually, just 1 version with two different sets of rom/menu (Gizmo) chips. Both have the same main chip and hardware with the sound problem. The one hitting all the other stores now is the actual 2nd version (with the fixed sound problems).

From a game player's POV, the 2 different rom sets are 2 different systems; 3 total. Which means we're up to #4 now, in an effort to get it right. :roll:

Supposedly Walmart got the first production-run units.
Not supposedly, only Walmart got the first-run sound erred shipments because they were the first to sign up. All the units arriving at Best Buy, QVC, Target, EB, etc. are all the 2nd run.

Well, you're either privvy to inside-info, or you're an employee of Atari. Since I'm neither, I stated 'supposedly'.

With all do respect, all Atari Inc. management cared about was the unit supporting the 40 included games. Modding it to run carts voids the warranty - so they don't care about support other games.

With all due respect to you, it doesn't seem like they care much about their customers either. Whatever the reason(s)/excuses for the problems, dumping flawed product on consumers is a pretty damn lousy thing to do. And this company has done it more than once. What was the point of touting the fact that the FB2 was to have a 100% 2600-compatible chipset if it was only intended to run 40 games? Obviously *someone* in upper management gave the ok for someone to design it so that it was possible, and whoever it was didn't bother to test their design (or they did and realized that there were problems). But who cares, right? Because the only way they'll know is if they mod their system, which immediately voids the warranty. Nice little way to cover themselves, doncha think? :hmm:

On the other hand, the proto system designed by the "engineer" (and the early 10 game review system I had) ran all the games flawlessly.

How wonderful for you. However, that means nothing to everyone who bought yet another flawed system...

The problems are a fabrication problem - end of story. This "engineer" that supposedly "dropped the ball" is actually the one that is pushing to make sure the revisions are done when management could really care less because the average consumer isn't going to know the difference. Secondly, the errors in the packed in manual were from the graphic arts/layout company that was used. They couldn't keep manual revisions straight for some reason (even though they were clearly labeled in the file names) and submitted a mishmash of revisions to the printer.

The producton problems aren't the "end" of it. Everyone dropped the ball. The graphic arts/layout company weren't the only ones that couldn't keep it straight. There's some serious QA issues going on here, not to mention a production facitlity that pretty much does what it wants. The end result is- once again people are getting screwed, and what do they get? A replacement system? A refund? A lousy coupon? No. They get the opportunity to buy a Flashback 3, at the same price as everyone else (and I gotta say I'm a little surprised that there's even going to be another one), and hope *this* time everyone involved gets it right. What a joke.

If there's any hope for that company, they'll make sure that everyone responsible for Flashback 1 and 2 will have nothing to do with 3. Otherwise there will only be more problems...

Leo_A

10-11-2005, 12:20 AM

Don't listen to him, the Flashback 2 is a very good product. 30 dollars well spent.

Flojomojo

10-11-2005, 03:47 PM

The producton problems aren't the "end" of it. Everyone dropped the ball. The graphic arts/layout company weren't the only ones that couldn't keep it straight. There's some serious QA issues going on here, not to mention a production facitlity that pretty much does what it wants. The end result is- once again people are getting screwed, and what do they get? A replacement system? A refund? A lousy coupon? No. They get the opportunity to buy a Flashback 3, at the same price as everyone else (and I gotta say I'm a little surprised that there's even going to be another one), and hope *this* time everyone involved gets it right. What a joke. :bawling: :bawling: :bawling: :bawling: :bawling: :deadhorse:
It's a $30 toy and it plays forty different games, some of which are impossible to find elsewhere. It plays more than thirty of them very well. Some of the new games aren't that great, but there's certainly enough value elsewhere in the package. The joysticks alone are worth thirty bucks. The manual sucks, that's true, but there's a somewhat better version online, and none of these games really suffer because of poor documentation.

The only other example of a plug and play hardware re-creation coming even close to the FB2 quality is the Commodore 64 stick with 30 embedded games. This collection has support for 2 players, better controls, and a more memorable lineup.

Why the hatred? :villagepeople:

video_game_addict

10-11-2005, 07:46 PM

I haven't bought one yet, because of the flaws in the first runs that were hitting Walmart, but I do plan on picking one up eventually. I wish they had spent a little more time on the homebrews they threw on it thought, and made those a little better. From what I've seen & read on the forums they really didn't turn out too well. I own all the relased games that are on it, so there's no real reason for me to jump out there and buy one yet. But I do want to at least try those new games eventually. I may wait till the price drops before I pick one up.

stonic

10-11-2005, 11:55 PM

It's a $30 toy and it plays forty different games, some of which are impossible to find elsewhere.

The only ones "impossible" to find are the new titles (Lunar Lander, Caverns of Mars, Pong, and all the hacks), which is no biggie since most of them don't work right anyway.
And where are you getting 40 different games? Let's recap what games are included:

3-D Tic Tac Toe
Adventure
Adventure II (hack of Adventure)
Aquaventure (unreleased prototype)
Asteroids
Asteroids Deluxe (hack of Asteroids)
Atari Climber (homebrew)
Battlezone
Breakout (hidden bonus game)
Caverns of Mars (homebrew)
Centipede
Combat
Combat Two (unreleased prototype)
Dodge 'Em
Fatal Run
Frog Pong (unreleased prototype)
Hangman
Haunted House
Human Cannonball
Lunar Lander (homebrew)
Maze Craze
Millipede
Missile Command
Off The Wall
Outlaw
Pitfall (Activision title)
Pong (homebrew)
Quadrun
Radar Lock
Return to Haunted House (hack of Adventure)
River Raid (Activision title)
Saboteur (unreleased prototype)
Save Mary (unreleased prototype)
Secret Quest
Space Duel (hack of Asteroids)
Space War
Video Checkers
Video Chess
Warlords (hidden bonus game)
Wizard (unreleased prototype)
Yars' Return (hack of Yars' Revenge)
Yars' Revenge

Thos in green are truly classic, memorable titles for that system; A+ games, if you will (although 2 of them are made by Activision. Didn't Activision include these on their *own* TV system already??). Those in red are at the opposite end of that spectrum. The rest are either late-release titles (in blue), prototypes, homebrews, or hacks.

The whole list is so hit-and-(mostly)miss. FIrst off, the hacks should never have been included. Centipede and Millipede are great games, but why do we need both here? So at most there's 34 *different* games (36 if you count the 2 bonus hidden games, which most folks will probably never see). Including games primarily designed for 2-players (Combat Two, Frog Pond, Space War) doesn't make much sense either. I suppose an arguement can be made as to why games like Tic Tac Toe and Video Checkers are included, but I personally don't remember playing them very much (and Video Chess runs so slowly, nobody would waste time trying to play it these days...). When you factor in what games are fun to play, maybe half the games on this list will see repeat play by owners (Human Cannonball was a running joke 'back in the day'. And others like Hangman and Wizard? LOL Yeah, ok). And yet perhaps the biggest 2600 title - Space Invaders - is nowhere to be found. How many revamped versions of Space Invaders have we seen over the years (for nearly every system out there)? I doubt anyone at Atari even bothered to try and get the rights to include it :/

It plays more than thirty of them very well.

How is it acceptable that 1/4th of them don't? Maybe that's fine for you, but I'd expect ALL of them to work ;)

Some of the new games aren't that great, but there's certainly enough value elsewhere in the package. The joysticks alone are worth thirty bucks. The manual sucks, that's true, but there's a somewhat better version online, and none of these games really suffer because of poor documentation.

Here's a LINK (http://www.digitpress.com/library/manuals/pnp/index.html) to the online manual.

The only other example of a plug and play hardware re-creation coming even close to the FB2 quality is the Commodore 64 stick with 30 embedded games. This collection has support for 2 players, better controls, and a more memorable lineup.
Why the hatred?

The CDTV is an excellent system- easily the best as far as emulation quality goes. But for $30, you can pick up Jakks Activision 10-in-1, Atari's 10-in-1, and Atari's 13-in-1 paddle TV systems.

Oh yeah, and ALL the games work.

It's not hatred, it's complete and utter disappointment.
:( Especially in light of the craptastic Flashback 1.

Don't listen to him, the Flashback 2 is a very good product. 30 dollars well spent.

Your comments in this thread speak for themselves, don't they?:
http://www.digitpress.com/forum/showthread.php?t=58635

Not that your biased or anything:

I can't really go into details for various reasons. Sum it up by saying you're wrong, you will be in for a pleasant surprise with this product.

You can go ahead and buy them all up for Christmas presents this year. I'll wait until they hit the bargain bins, which should be a few months from now.

Reading that thread again, I forgot about some of the misinformation in the initial marketing. Seems thing thing has been hit-and-miss since day one :/ I think a few of you need to take those rose-tinted Wayfarer's off for a bit :P

NoahsMyBro

10-12-2005, 12:12 AM

1) I don't have one yet - I told my wife about the unit when it first hit QVC and Wal-Mart. She very unsubtly suggested I not run right out and get one, as there was always the possibility I'd get one from *somebody* for Hanukah. I made sure she knows to avoid the WalMart units due to the bugs. SO, I can't speak with first-hand knowledge about the system.

2) You've listed the games, and proceeded to make many judgements about them and the system. You framed your judgements as FACTs. While many people may agree with many game assesments, others might not. Case in point, you single out Human Cannonball as a stinker. I remember thinking it looked like a piece of crap when it was current. Against my urging, my younger brother got it (new), and once we took it home I enjoyed it a lot. Youo can't apply your OPINIONS to the list of games, and then declare as fact that only a certain percentage of the games are of any worth. The system has a certain number of games. Whether or not you like or dislike a percentage has no bearing.

3) You cite some as homebrews or hacks. This doesn't seem all that relevant to me either. For one, I've played many homebrews, and proudly own many homebrews. In my opinion, some are pretty bad (Alfred Challenge comes to mind), some are good, but not great (Pick Up), while some are as good as anything ever produced by any company of any size (Thrust+, Koffi, SCSIcide). Just because a game is a homebrew doesn't automatically mean it is of lower quality. Often, the homebrew author actually cared more about producing something good, and it shows in the final product. AND, I don't think Adventure 2 is a hack - I thought it was a different game, basically a stripped down version of Ron L's 5200 Adventure 2. Are you sure it's just a hack of Adventure? (And as I understand the usage, a hack means the graphics/sound may have been altered, but the underlying game is the same as the original.)

I thought the previous Flashback was pretty much a slap in the face, and I've thought most, if not all, of the Plug'N'Play systems so far have been mediocre at best. But this Flashback 2 unit definitely looks to me like the company is finally making an effort to do things right, and I'm looking forward to getting one. AND I'm looking forward to adding a cartridge port to mine.

Flack

10-12-2005, 08:35 AM

That's what went out in the initial Walmart batch because management didn'd deem it enough of a problem for the average consumer, and for collectors they felt it raised the collectibility factor.

Are you telling me I now have a faulty Flashback 2 (I bought mine at vgXpo in Dallas, before Wal-Mart even got theirs) because somebody thought a buggy system would be more collectable? :roll:

If anyone would like to trade a working one for my highly collectable bugged system, let me know.

omnedon

10-12-2005, 10:53 AM

I'll stick with refurbished, AV modded original hardware. It runs everything. Easier to get and to do, than hacking up an FB2.

Neat toy, but these compatibility issues, plus you have to CUT a HOLE in it for a cart slot, yeeeesh.

I applaud the efforts behind it. Thing is success or falure of something like this is not determined by hard core collectors like us. It's Mom and Pop shopping for Christmas gifts that will make or break it.

Can;t please everybody. I have no hate on this FB2, but I won't buy one.

omnedon

10-12-2005, 10:59 AM

I'll stick with refurbished, AV modded original hardware. It runs everything. Easier to get and to do, than hacking up an FB2.

Neat toy, but these compatibility issues, plus you have to CUT a HOLE in it for a cart slot, yeeeesh.

I applaud the efforts behind it. Thing is success or falure of something like this is not determined by hard core collectors like us. It's Mom and Pop shopping for Christmas gifts that will make or break it.

Can't please everybody. I have no hate on this FB2, but I won't buy one.

Jagasian

10-12-2005, 01:22 PM

I think the main problem is when something is sold as a reproduction of a classic console and it has flaws that make it incompatible with games for that system. I really think that Messiah is making a mistake with their NES reproduction. They are keeping a tight lip about compatibility issues, which I am sure they know of, as it isn't hard to try out a handful of NES games with the system... let alone do professional testing of every commercial NES and Famicom game on the system.

You have to give the Flashback guys credit for one thing: they improve their system with each release. First there was the FB1, which was based on a NOAC. Then there was the multiple revisions of the FB2, each better than the last.

I just wish that people would stop being misleading about the technical aspects of the hardware that they are selling. For those that really care, get yourself a refurbished original, and wait until there are good unbiased reviews of these clones before you make a final decision on purchasing one.

Cafeman

10-12-2005, 06:05 PM

I got my FB2 (original run version) for free. :) I actually giggled when I took it out of the box and felt the sticks.

Steve, "Adventure II" is indeed a hack of Adventure. The original kernel and logic was used but modified as necessary, but the memory was bumped up to at least 8K (I'm not 100% sure of the exact ROM size since I didn't code it). I think its a nice semi-sequel to the original ... the maze is complicated enough that I get lost (it isn't the exact same as my 5200 version,which is probably closer to 64K in size due to the compression I'm using.). I didn't code any of the FB2 Adventure II though.

A couple people I know bought them from QVC. They noticed the screen rolls on some hacks / homebrews but overall they all think it was well worth the money. With River Raid, Adventure, Yars Revenge, Asteroids and some others, the FB2 is sure to please folks this season. One friend said he wished "E.T." had been on the FB2 ... "god I loved that game", he said, I couldn't believe it.

stonic

10-12-2005, 06:38 PM

2) You've listed the games, and proceeded to make many judgements about them and the system. You framed your judgements as FACTs...

I pointed out titles that were not big sellers by any means, and including unreleased games and protos (although 'cool') isn't 'smart' business (and honestly, have you played games like Wizard or Combat Two for any length of time. There's a reason unreleased games are unreleased- one being that they're NOT fun...). If I had only 40 titles to choose from, I can think of a helluva lot better or more popular games to include besides ones like Wizard or Human Cannonball - games that your average consumer likely would be familiar with. As bad as Pac-Man is, I'd still expect to see it included; as much as I like games like Star Ship and Slot Racers, I'd be shocked if they were included.

3) You cite some as homebrews or hacks. This doesn't seem all that relevant to me either.

I don't have a problem with homebrew titles, but considering your average buyer isn't going to recognize any of them, 1 or 2 would have been plenty here. I just can't understand that out of all the great homebrews out there (and there's plenty), the only known/credible title included was Climber. Why not release the new hacks and homebrews online beforehand and let the community of dedicated players still out there test them, offer suggestions for improvements, etc. - take advantage of all that invaluable experience. Talk about an untapped resource. What a waste.

Same with hacks (again, there's plenty of quality hacks out there, but they choose to go with a bunch of unknown/untested ones), but IMO hacks have no place on a product like this. If it contained a lot more games, then fine- sprinkle a few in. That's not the case here, so again with only 40 titles to choose from, even 1 would have been 1 too many.

AND, I don't think Adventure 2 is a hack - I thought it was a different game, basically a stripped down version of Ron L's 5200 Adventure 2. Are you sure it's just a hack of Adventure? (And as I understand the usage, a hack means the graphics/sound may have been altered, but the underlying game is the same as the original.)

No, I'm not 100% sure, but from screen shots I've seen of it I'd be very suprised if it didn't contain a fair amount of the original code...

I'm looking forward to adding a cartridge port to mine.

Great! Go for it. Personally I'm siding with omnedon on this one. If it worked as promised, I'd have been more than happy to support the company (and I would have had a modded one by now), but I can't see wasting time to do it if it's not going to work correctly.

Have no fear though, I'm sure they'll sell truckloads of em, enough to justify making a FB3...

Leo_A

10-13-2005, 01:34 PM

"The CDTV is an excellent system- easily the best as far as emulation quality goes. But for $30, you can pick up Jakks Activision 10-in-1, Atari's 10-in-1, and Atari's 13-in-1 paddle TV systems.

Oh yeah, and ALL the games work."

That's stretching things a bit. :) I fired up the Atari 10-in-1 stick the other night and played "Pong". Started the game, never moved, won 21-0 against the AI (Never moving my paddle) when the ball just froze (Game over?) though I was able to move my paddle when I tried after. Oh and the paddle can wrap around the screen too, can the original do that? (I never wasted my time on it on any of these collections since I need paddles to enjoy it, did Video Olympics for the 2600 allow the paddle to wrap around the screen?)

They work, but they're very poor imitations of the originals except for the paddle system.

stonic

10-13-2005, 11:07 PM

Does Jakks claim that it's 100% accurate?

No. So... what's your point?

Leo_A

10-13-2005, 11:24 PM

stonic

10-14-2005, 10:45 AM

That the games suck on it is what I claim. Most of the included Flashback 2 titles work perfectly, virtually all of the titles that have issues result from programming errors (Junk like Space Duel), besides a couple sound issues (Maze Craze & Quadrun), and a Missile Command graphic error.

The same could be said of Jakks systems ;) And it's not just Missile Command with graphics problems. EVERY game that uses HMOVE (i.e. any game that shows a thin black line on the left side of the screen) is affected (to some degree).

Sounds like your issue is with the lineup of games included on the system more than anything. It does a very good job of running 2600 games. And it probably would be perfect if it wasn't tampered with beforehand and produced like it was intended as several reports from individuals that have playtested prerelease versions have testified.

The line-up is pretty weak overall, but my main gripe with it is simple - it DOESN'T WORK RIGHT! About the only thing I can praise about it are the controllers, but even if they were lousy, you can at least use your own. So they got 1 thing right LOL

And where has Atari ever claimed that it would run 2600 games perfectly?

I believe the very person(s) involved with stated that from day 1. Comments like "2600-on-a-chip" and "100% emulation" were thrown around more than once.

What is your point I'm curious though. It does a very good job at what it was intended for. For 30 dollars it's a steal. It's as good as any of these retro things have been, the Jakks stuff suck, the C64 stick is nice but the hardware quality sucks, these various classic gaming collections all have their faults as well (Namco 50th Anniversary, Activision Anthology, etc.).

With FB2, some of the games are so unstable that the screen rolls constantly, making them completely unplayable. Big difference between that and a game that "sucks".

And best of all, the issues it has are being corrected.

Yeah.. with version 4. Maybe. And if they ever get it right, I'll buy one (and give all the new games a thorough shake-down). Fair enough?

Leo_A

10-14-2005, 02:51 PM

I didn't really consider the cosmetic unauthorized fix to the scan lines a problem even though I didn't like it. But I'm not going to argue since I was disappointed with it too even though it didn't affect the playability of any of the titles.

I don't like the lineup much myself, but it plays the included 2600 games pretty accurately. Don't get me started on the homebrews though, I'm not about to defend stuff like Yar's Return (Though if you check out http://feeds.feedburner.com/BobbyBlackwolfShow?m=12 about 24 minutes in it will shed some light on the issue. :)

"I believe the very person(s) involved with stated that from day 1. Comments like "2600-on-a-chip" and "100% emulation" were thrown around more than once. "

Because as far as has been stated, it was until unauthorized changes were made in Asia before entering production. So it's understandable and I'm sure they were disappointed that it ended up not being that way.

"With FB2, some of the games are so unstable that the screen rolls constantly, making them completely unplayable. Big difference between that and a game that "sucks" "

Which games? The GCC Millipede is due to the number of scan lines and not the FB2 (Though why they'd include something they knew wouldn't work on NTSC televisions is beyond me, probably why they substituded the Atari Millipede in pretty quickly). The rest as far as I've experienced have been with the hacks/homebrews so I'd write those off as programming errors as well. Though 2600 hardware has always been like this, not uncommon for certain titles to roll in certain 2600 systems with the right television sets.

"Yeah.. with version 4. Maybe. And if they ever get it right, I'll buy one (and give all the new games a thorough shake-down). Fair enough?"

I think you'll be pleased when you do. While it certainly has it's issues (Such as the sucky instruction manual), overall it's a pretty well done product. Certainly a leap head of the majorty of these plug & play TV games that have made it to market so far.

stonic

10-14-2005, 09:13 PM

I didn't really consider the cosmetic unauthorized fix to the scan lines a problem even though I didn't like it. But I'm not going to argue since I was disappointed with it too even though it didn't affect the playability of any of the titles.

It doesn't (which may have played a part in what titles were chosen) but it certainly does on a modded system, which it was designed to be.

I don't like the lineup much myself, but it plays the included 2600 games pretty accurately. Don't get me started on the homebrews though, I'm not about to defend stuff like Yar's Return (Though if you check out http://feeds.feedburner.com/BobbyBlackwolfShow?m=12 about 24 minutes in it will shed some light on the issue. :)

Caverns of Mars has some problems as well (I mentioned this in an earlier post). As for Yars' Return, I asked HSW- the creator of Yars' Revenge- on whether or not he had anything to do with it:

"I had nothing to do with this whatsoever. In fact, this so lacks creativity that they could only use the same graphics and color scheme? Jesus! This looks pretty absurd. I do have a design for another Yars, but it is an innovation and has nothing to do with what is being portrayed here."

There you have it. Yet another wasted opportunity by the FB team. For years HSW has publicly stated many times that he's always had an idea on how to do a sequel to Yars. Here's an idea- if you want to do one that badly, and for a product like FB2, why not ASK the guy who created it?

Which games? The GCC Millipede is due to the number of scan lines and not the FB2 (Though why they'd include something they knew wouldn't work on NTSC televisions is beyond me, probably why they substituded the Atari Millipede in pretty quickly).

Why? Simple - little or no play-testing. But you have it the other way around. The GCC version should have been on there originally, as indicated by the packaging (instead the Atari version was included in Rev 1. Rev 2 and 3 have the GCC version.) So first they had the wrong version, and then they put the right version on, except it doesn't work right (b/c it's an unreleased prototype, which they never bothered to test).

The rest as far as I've experienced have been with the hacks/homebrews so I'd write those off as programming errors as well. Though 2600 hardware has always been like this, not uncommon for certain titles to roll in certain 2600 systems with the right television sets.

If you have an NTSC cart that rolls on an NTSC TV, it's b/c of sloppy programming - NOT the hardware. Naturally, any PAL cart will roll on an NTSC TV, unless the TV is a newer model that can automatically compensate for it.

Unless someone's completely biased, it's painfully obvious that this thing was not adequately play-tested. If it was, all these problems would have been caught and fixed in Rev 2, not 3 or 4 or however many it will take. The next chip rev isn't going to fix the screen rolling problems some games have, and by now GCC Millipede and Caverns of Mars should have either been fixed or replaced. If not, the system (as it's sold - unmodded) will never work 100% for everyone.

stonic

01-24-2006, 10:19 PM

FYI, a new version of Caverns of Mars was done by a different programmer - John W. Champeau (the former founder of CHAMProgramming)

http://home.ptd.net/~scottith/comold.jpg
(original FB2 version)

http://home.ptd.net/~scottith/comnew.jpg
(Champeau's version)

Guess Atari finally agreed that their version "for sucks" and plan to replace the current version with the new one in the next FB2 version.

Also worth noting - the person involved with designing the FB2 also found + released the GCC's Millipede ROM. Things that make ya go 'hmmmmm' LOL

rbudrick

01-25-2006, 12:10 PM

Also worth noting - the person involved with designing the FB2 also found + released the GCC's Millipede ROM. Things that make ya go 'hmmmmm'

Not sure what you mean? Found and released? In what way do you mean?

-Rob

Leo_A

01-25-2006, 01:39 PM

I assume he's talking about Curt Vendel. And I'm not sure what's strange about it. The guy seems to be the expert when it comes to Atari history, and has done more research and saved more pieces of Atari's history than anyone I imagine. And he has technical skills as well. Easy to see why Atari has gone to him to work on projects like the Flashback 2.

There were two 2600 Centipedes produced. Atari produced a version which they ended up selling, and GCC produced a version hoping Atari would release it. Don't know the specifics of it, maybe GCC wasn't aware Atari was producing a version themselves, or they thought they could do it better and hoped Atari would pick it up.

stonic

01-25-2006, 07:04 PM

I assume he's talking about Curt Vendel. And I'm not sure what's strange about it. The guy seems to be the expert when it comes to Atari history, and has done more research and saved more pieces of Atari's history than anyone I imagine. And he has technical skills as well. Easy to see why Atari has gone to him to work on projects like the Flashback 2.

Your opinion.

He found a GCC Millipede proto and released it.
He had GCC Millipede proto included on the Flashback 2
GCC doesn't work correctly on FB2 b/c it's a PAL game.

An expert on Atari history he may be.
An expert on hardware design and software he is not.

Great Hierophant

01-26-2006, 12:03 AM

The FB2 has enough solid games and a very good design, well worth $30 and a far, far better product than any other X-in-1 device. It is not a perfect product by any means, but the errors are rather minor and were unintended. Atari had no control over the CAD design or the HK fellow who thought the HMOVE design could stand some improvement. Curt Vendel probably forgot about the "too-many scanlines issue" for Millipede. It can be easily overlooked, especially if your TV is unusually accomodating with scanlines. (I had an NTSC 13" TV/VCR that could display my PAL DVDs natively at 525i, no color of course.)

However, Atari never marked this as a 2600 replacement, but as a high class novelty product. To use it as a 2600 replacement, you have to solder in a cartridge port. According to the chip's designers, the chip they designed was as perfect as it gets (I wonder if it could do Cosmic Ark and Solaris correctly) but thanks to issues beyond their control, the released product ends up as something less than perfect. If the one or more of the games don't work perfectly, it was unintentional. Of course, if you had a real problem, you could probably demand that Atari replace the device with a working one.

Leo_A

01-26-2006, 08:56 AM

You'll find a wide variation in scanlines on 2600 titles. Doesn't necessarily make it PAL, and there are titles considered NTSC that can be problematic on NTSC televisions.

Leo_A

01-26-2006, 08:59 AM

Oh and I'm not claiming Millipede isn't PAL, believe it is. Just wanted to throw that out there.

If Ubisoft can release a game that can't work on a good number of televisions, its not surprising a mistake could've been made on the FB2. A lot of modern tv's can handle GCC Millipede just fine.

And obviously they realized their error early on, a very small percentage of owners have the GCC Millipede. Don't remember the exacts of the AA poll I'm using to back this up, but it was something like 30-2 last time I checked.

stonic

01-26-2006, 10:23 AM

You'll find a wide variation in scanlines on 2600 titles.

The ideal # of scan lines for NTSC is 262; PAL is 312. Here's a (incomplete) list (http://www.digitpress.com/library/techdocs/vcs_scanlines.htm) of VCS titles and the # of lines they have. Most of them do actually have that exact # or one very close to it.

You'll see that GCC Millipede has 295, which makes it PAL. Not even close. ;)

... and there are titles considered NTSC that can be problematic on NTSC televisions.

That is true. The gray area seems to be between 280 and 290. I'm kinda surprised that an NTSC version hasn't been found by now...

stonic

07-02-2006, 01:16 PM

If anyone was curious to see just how glitchy and unplayable some of the new games are, here's your chance to see for yourself:

http://home.ptd.net/~stonic/EGG.JPG (http://home.ptd.net/~stonic/FB2bins.zip)

I can't even get Yars' Return to run (either on an emulator or a real system).

The latest version of the FB2 is headed to Walmarts, but don't look for fixed versions of these games on it, b/c they weren't included. It should however be fully compatible with all games now. Should....

DEBRO

07-03-2006, 07:11 AM

I can't even get Yars' Return to run (either on an emulator or a real system).
I don't know if this will help you but Yar's Return is 8K and uses the SARA chip.

DEBRO

07-03-2006, 09:01 AM

Are any of the other new games "superchip" ones?
Lunar Lander uses the SARA too.

Perhaps it's related to that. I tried dumping Battlezone and Fatal Run and the resultling bin files don't work either.
You might need to check how you're dumping these. Some of your dumps don't agree with the ones I have. I didn't have mine dumped so mine may not be the exact ones on the unit. Still your RTHH is 17K. X_x

Mitch

07-03-2006, 08:16 PM

It looks like you have some overdumps in there.
Comparing them to my working dumps; Adventure 2 and Yar's Return should be 8K. Haunted House 2 should be 4k.

Mitch

MarioMania

07-03-2006, 11:19 PM

What's the SARA chip do..and why dosn't it work in a real system

DEBRO

07-03-2006, 11:31 PM

Any idea about the Battlezone problem?

And since there's an NTSC version of Fatal Run was ever released, I'm guessing the version on the FB2 is either a PAL conversion or a prototype. Do you know which it is? I can dump it, but I can't convert it with his ultility program.
I didn't do any work on those so I can't comment on them. I don't have a dump of them from the FB2 either to try to do a compare.

What's the SARA chip do..and why dosn't it work in a real system
The SARA chip adds another 128 bytes of RAM. It's needed in Yar's Return to hold the other half of the shield. It was determined after the unit was shipped that Lunar Lander didn't need that much RAM. But I guess it didn't matter if it was only going to be done on the FB2. ;)

The games should work the same on a real console as they do on the FB2.

stonic

07-04-2006, 09:48 PM

For those curious about such things (like me), here's a list of all the new games and what size they are:

Adventure II 8K
Arcade Pong 4K
Arcade Asteroids 8K
Asteroids Deluxe 16K
Atari Climber 4K
Caverns of Mars 16K
Lunar Lander 16K SARA
Return to Haunted House 4K
Space Duel 16K
Yars Return 8K SARA

As for the Battlezone problem, I was checking something in Atari's 80 Classic Games in 1 title, and decided to try 2600 Battlezone. It shows the exact same problem with the left margin!

stonic

07-14-2006, 03:51 PM

In searching through the Stella programming list archives, I've learned that the FB2’s 2600-on-a-chip software was most likely written in VHDL by Carlos Lopez in 2002-2003, who worked out an agreement with Legacy Engineering for the rights to use it (which may be why his name isn't listed in the manual credits). Carlos also posted about the problem with Cosmic Ark's starfield not being displayed properly (back in Aug 2002 - link (http://www.biglist.com/lists/stella/archives/200208/msg00241.html)), which is the same problem modded FB2s show with the cart.

Aside from all the problems with the new games, as well as known ones with Quadrun and Missile Command, built-in Battlezone and Secret Quest don't run correctly either. And between John Soper and myself, here's a list of known issues with carts (over 50 at the latest count) modded systems:

Activsion Checkers (doesn’t run)
Airlock (picture rolls)
Astroblast (slight graphics problem)
Bermuda Triangle (ghosted player object on right side)
Berzerk (doesn’t run on some versions)
Berzerk VE (no voice)
Blue Print (doesn’t run)
Boxing (doesn’t run)
Cosmic Ark (problem with starfield)
Cracked (title screen is a little garbled - crashes when you start game)
Crazy Climber (dotted lines on all the lower the window sills)
Crystal Castles (some gems never disappear allowing you to rack up thousands of points in seconds)
Cuttle Cart (doesn’t run)
Dark Chambers (doesn’t run)
Decathlon (doesn’t run)
Desert Falcon (ghosting problems)
Dig Dug (garbled graphics)
Elevator Action (crashes when you start game)
Fatal Run (crashes after a few seconds)
Galaxian (extra Galaxians; collision-detection with shots affected)
Gremlins (extra graphics on the bottom of scene 1 and on the top of scene 2)
HERO (doesn’t run)
Journey Escape (problem with starfield)
Jr. Pac-Man (dots don’t disappear when eaten)
Jungle Hunt (every time you jump on the cannibal scene, the scene resets, but the timer keeps running)
Klax (locks up on title screen)
Kool-Aid Man (player constantly bounces)
Mario Bros. (screen shakes every time you move)
Millipede (flickering/extra graphics; game keeps resetting)
Mogul Maniac (color bars on left side)
Off The Wall (locks up)
Omega Race (doesn’t run)
Pitfall 2 (doesn’t run)
Plaque Attack (ghosted player object on left side)
Quadrun (no voice)
Radar Lock (locks up)
Raiders of the Lost Ark (graphics glitch on base of pedestal, Entrance room blast hole, and maproom)
Rampage (has small red lines in the lower-right corner, and above cars)
RealSports Baseball (a dot appears in the upper-left corner, and smaller dots appear on the left side every time a player moves)
RealSports Tennis (extra net graphics appear to the left of the net)
Robot Tank (picture rolls, screen shows “switching to reserve tank”)
Secret Agent (doesn’t run)
Secret Quest (when you start a game, you materialize inside a wall)
Skeleton+ (doesn’t run)
Snoopy & The Red Baron (“holes” in the mountain range graphics)
Snow White (game either has rolling picture, crashes, or garbled graphics – which can be cleared up by hitting reset)
Space Shuttle (picture rolls)
Sprintmaster (garbled graphics)
Spy Hunter (garbled graphics)
Stargate (doesn’t run)
Starpath Supercharger (doesn’t run)
Super Baseball (a dot appears in the upper-left corner, and smaller dots appear on the left side every time a player moves)
Super Football (garbled graphics – unplayable)
Swoops (doesn’t run)
Swordquest Waterworld (all the rooms are half white/half black in color)
Thrust Platinum (garbled graphics)
Tunnel Runner (picture rolls, no music plays, game locks up)
Tutankham (garbled playfield graphics)
Worm War I (ghosting problems)

Considering the lead engineer of the FB2 regarded Jakks' Atari 2600 system as “a sloppy 1/2 assed programming effort” (http://www.atariage.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=52945), I suppose it's only fair to call the FB2 a sloppy half-hearted engineering effort.