5 year console upgrade happening to soon!? (56K caution)

[zerohero]

NOTE: I hope this post offer’s a good discussion. It’s a little something that’s been on my mind. I haven't seen a topic about this so...

Is the traditional five year console upgrade happening too soon?


Looking back at upgrades from the past, you can defiantly see a significant upgrade in graphics, as well as system power. Each of the retired systems has showcased their games, and innovations of their time. One example of an excellent five year console change could be form the Psx to the PS2.

PSX – Final Fantasy 8
http://bonusweb.idnes.cz/obrazek/r_ff808.jpg

http://pantransit.reptiles.org/images/2000-07-09/ff8_i09r.jpg


PS2 – Final Fantasy X
http://www.gamestop.com/common/images/lscreen/938303l2.jpg
http://magicfantasy.info/hpbimg/Tidus%202.jpg
http://www.ntsc-uk.com/reviews/ps2/FinalFantasyX/05.jpg



There is obviously an upgrade graphically, and power wise. Now speed 5 years later since the Ps2 , Xbox, and Gamecube have been released, I’m sure most of you have taken a look at what the next generation of consoles has to offer. With a few exception like “Metal Gear Solid 4”, and “ Gears of War”, it’s been a common saying that many of the games from the latter consoles installments look just as good as some of those being previewed now.

Take a look at a few new Xbox 360 launch titles, and compare them to “end cycle” installments of the Xbox games.

Xbox 360 - Ghost Recon : Advanced War fighter
http://www.gamestop.com/common/images/lscreen/200116l2.jpg

Xbox - Ghost Recon 2: Summit Strike
http://www.gamestop.com/common/images/lscreen/950758l4.jpg

Xbox – Ninja Gaiden Black:
http://xboxmedia.ign.com/xbox/image/article/639/639850/ninja-gaiden-black-dog-days-20050805061108087.jpg

http://www.gamestop.com/common/images/lscreen/210858l1.jpg

Xbox 360 – Perfect Dark
http://www.gamestop.com/common/images/lscreen/200118l5.jpg

Xbox 360 – Dead or Alive 4
http://www.gamestop.com/common/images/lscreen/200121l2.jpg
http://www.gamestop.com/common/images/lscreen/200121l4.jpg

Xbox – Dead or Alive Ultimate
http://www.gamestop.com/common/images/lscreen/210410l3.jpg
http://www.gamestop.com/common/images/lscreen/210410l4.jpg
http://www.gamestop.com/common/images/lscreen/210410l5.jpg


With that being said, there are some who would argue that the later installments to the system will be better. Of course (no sh*t) this happens in every cycle. Since we know this, why not wait an extra year, and give the developers time to get acquainted with their new hardware to program for? Doing so would give Xbox 360 owners, (as well as other systems owners) titles at launch such as….

Xbox 360 - Gears of War

http://xbox360media.ign.com/xbox360/image/article/655/655560/gears-of-war-20051003095644817.jpg


http://xbox360media.ign.com/xbox360/image/article/655/655560/gears-of-war-20051003095633583.jpg

For Xbox 360, a title like this would make an excellent killer app as well as show case the system’s power. Not to mention have Halo 3 at launch would be icing on the cake!

Getting back to my original statement, Should there be an extension on consoles lives? Since the graphical, and power leaps are getting shorter, and shorter, would it be more beneficial to the developers, the system launch, and the games over all?

My answer is yes!

[roushimsx]

You do realize that 6 of your first seven screenshots are prerendered, right? Just curious.

I mean, are you trying to say that artists haven't fully grasped how to prerender stuff better than they did 5 years ago or something? I'm kind of lost here.

and anyway, comparing late releases on current generation to early releases on next generation is pointless. To get a better feel of the difference, compare launch Playstation games with launch PS2 games, and then compare launch Xbox games with launch Xbox 360 games.

But yea, the next generation is spilling out at just the right time. Consoles right now don't have enough ram, period. As a nice side effect, we also get some awesomely recent-gen 3d hardware, which will be nice. Fill that newfound expanded ram with lots of hot high resolution textures and throw that shit out at a high resolution on my HDTV.

tangent, i don't know if you noticed or not (probably not, which means the background artists did their job), but there's a whole shit load of people in the background of that DoA4 fight.

[zerohero]

You do realize that 6 of your first seven screenshots are prerendered, right? Just curious.

I mean, are you trying to say that artists haven't fully grasped how to prerender stuff better than they did 5 years ago or something? I'm kind of lost here.

and anyway, comparing late releases on current generation to early releases on next generation is pointless. To get a better feel of the difference, compare launch Playstation games with launch PS2 games, and then compare launch Xbox games with launch Xbox 360 games.

But yea, the next generation is spilling out at just the right time. Consoles right now don't have enough ram, period. As a nice side effect, we also get some awesomely recent-gen 3d hardware, which will be nice. Fill that newfound expanded ram with lots of hot high resolution textures and throw that shit out at a high resolution on my HDTV.

tangent, i don't know if you noticed or not (probably not, which means the background artists did their job), but there's a whole shit load of people in the background of that DoA4 fight.



I know the Final Fantasy pic's where CGI except for 1 shot. I mean I beat both games. I'm basically saying right now there isn't much of a difference in over all quality of the next gen games, and that I think it would be wiser to extend that waiting period an extra year or so. I understand your point about the Ram, and didn't think about that before. Good point!

[petewhitley]

II'm basically saying right now there isn't much of a difference in over all quality of the next gen games, and that I think it would be wiser to extend that waiting period an extra year or so. I understand your point about the Ram, and didn't think about that before. Good point!

Unless you happened to be in Amerstand the past week with a press pass, I don't think you've actually played any Xbox 360 games. I would wait until launch to make these kind of judgements ...

[zerohero]

II'm basically saying right now there isn't much of a difference in over all quality of the next gen games, and that I think it would be wiser to extend that waiting period an extra year or so. I understand your point about the Ram, and didn't think about that before. Good point!

Unless you happened to be in Amerstand the past week with a press pass, I don't think you've actually played any Xbox 360 games. I would wait until launch to make these kind of judgements ...

I understand this, I'm just going off of what I have seen so far. Which is exactly the reason why i choose to wait until at least the PS3 comes out before I make a desission on the 1st console I purchase.

[petewhitley]

I understand this, I'm just going off of what I have seen so far. Which is exactly the reason why i choose to wait until at least the PS3 comes out before I make a desission on the 1st console I purchase.

I'd say that's a wise choice. Sony's lack of in-game footage is either a great sign of things to come or a sign of great disappointment to come.

[PS2Hawk]

I understand this, I'm just going off of what I have seen so far. Which is exactly the reason why i choose to wait until at least the PS3 comes out before I make a desission on the 1st console I purchase.

I'd say that's a wise choice. Sony's lack of in-game footage is either a great sign of things to come or a sign of great disappointment to come.

Well here is the thing, from all the specs so far I think that PS3 is going to kick ass, now some people are still think that SONY is all bullshitting, and honestly that wat I thought too, but this time there is no freakin Emotion Engine, its a GPU by NVIDIA and the CPU is basically a custom G5...

so all the next gen consoles are using MAC CPU I can only think that there are good things going to come frm all 3, anyone who says that PS3 architecture is too hard just bullshitting.

[zerohero]

I understand this, I'm just going off of what I have seen so far. Which is exactly the reason why i choose to wait until at least the PS3 comes out before I make a desission on the 1st console I purchase.

I'd say that's a wise choice. Sony's lack of in-game footage is either a great sign of things to come or a sign of great disappointment to come.

Well here is the thing, from all the specs so far I think that PS3 is going to kick ass, now some people are still think that SONY is all bullshitting, and honestly that wat I thought too, but this time there is no freakin Emotion Engine, its a GPU by NVIDIA and the CPU is basically a custom G5...

so all the next gen consoles are using MAC CPU I can only think that there are good things going to come frm all 3, anyone who says that PS3 architecture is too hard just bullshitting.

Well if they don't believe the power , it's already been confirmed that the MGS4 was running in real time on the PS3 engine.

[PS2Hawk]

Also i don't want to bad mouth MS or the xbox360, but people should know that the xbox360 launch titles are only doing 30 frames per sec, some developers are getting hardd time even reaching 30, you can find this info on most sites while reading previews and all the poeple should know that the xbox360 launch titles will only use 1 CORE out of 3.

And last but not the least, people who BUY the console, don't forget that there is a possibility that MS may re-release an xbox360 with HD-DVD or Blue Ray.

[Cmtz]

I really think that now a days it is happening to fast. Back in the old day we could really see a change now we have to really look to see a difference.

http://www.vgfreak.com/images/screens/mario1.png

http://www.ntsc-uk.com/features/RSuperMarioWorld/01.jpg

http://www.tdubel.com/artikkelit/kuvat/emulxbox/pelit/n64/mario64_3.jpg

http://www.ntsc-uk.com/reviews/ngc/MarioSunshine/02.jpg

[zerohero]

I really think that now a days it is happening to fast. Back in the old day we could really see a change now we have to really look to see a difference.

http://www.vgfreak.com/images/screens/mario1.png

http://www.ntsc-uk.com/features/RSuperMarioWorld/01.jpg

http://www.tdubel.com/artikkelit/kuvat/emulxbox/pelit/n64/mario64_3.jpg

http://www.ntsc-uk.com/reviews/ngc/MarioSunshine/02.jpg


Glade to see other people that agree with me. I think technology has to catch up before we should upgrade. Excellent use of the mario examples "CMTZ"![/b]

[zerohero]

Also i don't want to bad mouth MS or the xbox360, but people should know that the xbox360 launch titles are only doing 30 frames per sec, some developers are getting hardd time even reaching 30, you can find this info on most sites while reading previews and all the poeple should know that the xbox360 launch titles will only use 1 CORE out of 3.

And last but not the least, people who BUY the console, don't forget that there is a possibility that MS may re-release an xbox360 with HD-DVD or Blue Ray.

I didn't know all their games were only moving at 30fps. I would expect more since this is next gen. I'd like to know if Gears of War is performing at 60fps.

[Xizer]

I really think that now a days it is happening to fast. Back in the old day we could really see a change now we have to really look to see a difference.

http://www.vgfreak.com/images/screens/mario1.png

http://www.ntsc-uk.com/features/RSuperMarioWorld/01.jpg

http://www.tdubel.com/artikkelit/kuvat/emulxbox/pelit/n64/mario64_3.jpg

http://www.ntsc-uk.com/reviews/ngc/MarioSunshine/02.jpg

The Mario 64 screenshot does not count - it was taken on an N64 emulator for the Xbox which runs at a MUCH higher resolution than the actual N64 (trust me, I know wink wink). The difference between the N64 and GameCube is more than that.

[n8littlefield]

I think that alot of the 360/PS3 games initially will be difference that will have to be seen in motion to appreciate. I think we'll get things that look similiar to current Xbox games, but with better framerates, even further draw distances, and especially superior lighting.

There was a video I watched a few days ago of Project Gotham Racing, and although I've never played the earlier Xbox versions, I can say that even if the models were the same quality, the lighting was absolutely phenominal.

The problem is that we want the next generation of systems to be photo realistic, but even if the system can do that, the graphic artists have to have that ability. Even with unlimited power, it's going to be a tough order to have realism to the point that, for example, would cause Madden 09 to be mistaken for an actual broadcast.

[zerohero]

Even with unlimited power, it's going to be a tough order to have realism to the point that, for example, would cause Madden 09 to be mistaken for an actual broadcast.

When THAT day comes, it will be a an awsome moment. Imagine playing Zelda with realistic looking envoroments etc. I just hope it won't turn into a "style of substance" thing.

[PS2Hawk]

Also i don't want to bad mouth MS or the xbox360, but people should know that the xbox360 launch titles are only doing 30 frames per sec, some developers are getting hardd time even reaching 30, you can find this info on most sites while reading previews and all the poeple should know that the xbox360 launch titles will only use 1 CORE out of 3.

And last but not the least, people who BUY the console, don't forget that there is a possibility that MS may re-release an xbox360 with HD-DVD or Blue Ray.

I didn't know all their games were only moving at 30fps. I would expect more since this is next gen. I'd like to know if Gears of War is performing at 60fps.



no Cliffy B. said his goal is to run GEARS of War @ 30 fps, as much as this sux I was hoping we would get atleast 80 frames per sec this time on home consoles. The only games that is running at 60 frames per sec is DOA4 ...

[PS2Hawk]

on the above reply, dude you have the most shittiest screen shot of Mario Sunshine, get a better pic and then compare.

[Jagasian]

I disagree. You just compared screenshots of prerendered graphics with real-time graphics. Furthermore, screenshots do not capture things like frame rate, dynamic lighting, advanced 3D audio, etc. Even though I mostly play SNES games even to this day, I am glad to see the relentless march to better technology. Early adopters should be encouraged as they help push the envelope.

[zerohero]

I disagree. You just compared screenshots of prerendered graphics with real-time graphics. Furthermore, screenshots do not capture things like frame rate, dynamic lighting, advanced 3D audio, etc. Even though I mostly play SNES games even to this day, I am glad to see the relentless march to better technology. Early adopters should be encouraged as they help push the envelope.

Not all those shots are pre rendered look again. The only shots like that where final fantasy and you can see a big difference even there .

[zerohero]

http://ffwa.org/ff8old/images/eng_demo/demo_4_51198.jpg

http://www.gameblitz.com/images/ffx3.jpg

For people complaining about the CGI (even though you can tell the difference there either way ) here are some ingame shots.

[Cmtz]

on the above reply, dude you have the most shittiest screen shot of Mario Sunshine, get a better pic and then compare.

Well, I guess you can argue that. I just got them at random. All I'm trying to say is that Perfect Dark for the 360 looks like it could have been done on the Xbox.

http://xbox360media.ign.com/xbox360/image/article/655/655557/x05-perfect-dark-zero-screens-20051003091537111.jpg

[zerohero]

I watched the Gears of War TGS trailer, and even at 30 fps it still looks awsome. It's the only game for XBox 360 that looks NEXT GEN.

[PS2Hawk]

I watched the Gears of War TGS trailer, and even at 30 fps it still looks awsome. It's the only game for XBox 360 that looks NEXT GEN.

yep that and Kameo should be realllllllly good...

[The Spelling Wizard]

on[On] the above reply, dude you have the most shittiest[remove most] screen shot of Mario Sunshine, get a better pic and then compare.
Mistakes:
Capitalization
Double negative

[njiska]

There's something i don't think a lot of you are taking into account.

Games get better as the console cycle progresses because developers gain experience with the console. You can have the most powerful console in the world, but unless you know how to harness the power then there's only so much you can do. For example MS has gone on record stating that most 360 launch titles won't look that much better then this gen because most developers are only using one core.

So yes, if we still created the consoles for the 5 year mark and didn't release till the 6th then theoretically we would have better launch titles, however it also means an extra year of development time for those launch titles. That just isn't fiscally responsible.

The 5 year cycle is just fine by me because it just feels right. What we really need to adjust is our expectations. As n8littlefield stated we're expecting photo-realistic graphics in the next gen, but the thing is even pre-rendered $800,000 CG shots in Hollywood movies don't look flawlessly real. They're damn close to real, but artists can only do so much and they only have so much time (and money) to work with. Game designers don't have many luxuries.

What we should be expecting from the next gen is better gameplay and increased realism through things like physics. After all we are the Retro-gaming crowd. We of all people should know that better graphics don't mean a better game, it's got to be a complete package.

The really noticable gain is that all these games are running in true HD and beleive me in person it makes a big difference.

The revolution upgrade is also a needed one. The controller is gonna make for some interesting games.


Also i don't want to bad mouth MS or the xbox360, but people should know that the xbox360 launch titles are only doing 30 frames per sec, some developers are getting hardd time even reaching 30, you can find this info on most sites while reading previews and all the poeple should know that the xbox360 launch titles will only use 1 CORE out of 3.

And last but not the least, people who BUY the console, don't forget that there is a possibility that MS may re-release an xbox360 with HD-DVD or Blue Ray.

30 FPS really doesn't bother me since most visually impressive games in this gen are only doing 30 anyways and like you said, the developers haven't learned how to use the multi core design yet. I expect similar things with the PS3 launch. Besides 30fps at 1280x720 is still considerably better then 30fps at 720x480

As for you're re-release HD DVD (there is no Dash) theory early adopters should not beware. MS knows that they're gonna need HD DVD eventually and they did design their console to be moduler. I expect upgrading to HD will be similar to the N64 expansion pack.


so all the next gen consoles are using MAC CPU I can only think that there are good things going to come frm all 3, anyone who says that PS3 architecture is too hard just bullshitting.

I think you need to go do a little more research Hawk because you're wrong.

The PS3 is not using a G5 and neither is the 360. While the 360 and Cell are is most likely using the lastest Power PC instruction set there's a lot more to programing then just that. The 360 should be easier to program for (several developers have stated this and trust me they aren't bullshiting) because the 3 PPU design makes it very similar to programing for a multi core machine (although because the graphics chip is essentially the north-bridge it won't be quite that simple). The Cell chip on the other hand is very unique because it only has one PPU, all the other cores function differently. Knowing how to program so the load is properly split across the right cores is complicated and will take a lot of time to learn, although i will admit that if Sony gets some good middleware out there it will make things easier.

I'm not looking to call you out, i'm just saying there's a lot more to programing then just the instruction set. These new chips are vastly different.

[diskoboy]

on[On] the above reply, dude you have the most shittiest[remove most] screen shot of Mario Sunshine, get a better pic and then compare.
Mistakes:
Capitalization
Double negative

Who the fuck are you, Mr. 2 posts? An English professor?

Bad move, noob. This isn't IGN. You can go troll all you want there. Not here.

[njiska]

on[On] the above reply, dude you have the most shittiest[remove most] screen shot of Mario Sunshine, get a better pic and then compare.
Mistakes:
Capitalization
Double negative

Who the fuck are you, Mr. 2 posts? An English professor?

Bad move, noob. This isn't IGN. You can go troll all you want there. Not here.

Hey be fair. I mean no offense to PS2Hawk but his grammer is usually pretty bad. I'm no saint but there are times when i wonder if Hawk has had a stroke.

I'm fairly sure The Spelling Wizard was just trying to joke around and isn't just an arrogant ass. Although i could be wrong.

[Jagasian]

on the above reply, dude you have the most shittiest screen shot of Mario Sunshine, get a better pic and then compare.

Well, I guess you can argue that. I just got them at random. All I'm trying to say is that Perfect Dark for the 360 looks like it could have been done on the Xbox.



Of course because that screenshot doesn't let you know what the frame rate is, or that the game uses dynamic lighting and bump mapping. The comparison is simply not fair unless you, first of all, compare to finished games, not a game that is still in development, and second of all you have to compare video of each game. Again, screenshots do not capture the frame rate or dynamic lighting!!!

[Sothy]

I dont think there has to be much of an improvement in graphics.

Graphics are great this gen. I wanna see better physics larger maps more freedom etc.

When a .50 slug smacks into a car it usually has a programming method bullet=x dmg / vehicle = x health and when it reaches a specific limit it blows up.

Thats fine. yawn. whatever.

But with this next generation I am expecting an increase in the games intelligence and physics.

I want to see the game take into account that a .50 slammed into the rear wheel and ricochets up through the trunk sending spark and shards of metal gaping with an awesome gap where it exited the steel the driver has hardly any control of the crippled vehicle but since the engine is untouched can scrape it a few hundred yards away to safely evade the man on foot. What we get is shoot object 15 times with x weapon and object destroyed. They throw in some breakable glass and deflatable tires on todays games to make you feel like its intelligent "real"

Shoot an enemy in the leg with ahigh powered rifle "maybe" he has a short pain animation and then hes right back up popping away with his AI buddies because he still has 65 "health points".

I want to see to see a realistic response. Maybe the femur was shattered and he will crash to the ground screaming and rolling in the dirt untill an ally reaches him and drags him behind a crate gives him a hit of morphine, packs the wound and then comes after you again.

Maybe it hits him in the leg and hes a badass and it just pisses him off and the enemy rushes at you twice as recklessly untill you finish the job or he bleeds out into uncnciousness.

Everyones on about the graphics.... I have been wowed with current day graphics since my first glimpse of Halo...

Now its a new gen of hardware. Lets see some substance, some huge Gameworlds and realistic physics. Give us some crazy interaction with endless variation each time we play.

Thats what Im looking forward to.

[goatdan]

I agree with Sothy over the biggest thing that we should expect out of the next generation.

Also, it _is not fair_ to compare CGI screenshots from one gen to another. I understand that a lot of Final Fantasy's story is done through CGI's, but to me comparing them is pointless. I can watch DVDs on my Xbox or PS2, and the CGI found in Bug's Life far outpaces any Final Fantasy.

And really, there isn't that much of a difference there. If you're going for in-game quality, a fair way to compare system's power would be to take a sampling of games that came out in the same relative time-period for the console and compare them. So instead of late-releases for the PSX and PS2 vs. Xbox 360, compare the first gen of them. I think that the difference is quite amazing, and if the games get smarter as Sothy said, then I think we're going to see another big jump.

[Yago]

Let us go back in time for a sec here. The Atari 2600 came out in what? 1977 I believe. It was not until 1982 that the Atari 5200 came out. If you have played both systems, you would notice, well, not that much. You got more colors with the 5200, of course, a little better sound, but the games graphically were not that different. That was a difference of 5 years. In just 4 years later, the Atari 7800 came out to face Nintendo's NES system. Now, if you played all 3 Atari systems, you don't see much difference in the games. With the 7800, you got more colors than the 5200, the graphics a tad bit tighter, the sound much improved, but that is it. In 1986 the Atari Jr. came out also. The Atari 2600 had a life span of 10 years. So, even with other systems being released, such and Oddeyse 2, Intelellivision, ColecoVision (Released in 1982 I think), were people still buying up the Atari 2600? My answer, for the games. Games that did not have great graphics, nor great sound, but they surely had great playability. Something many games lack today. It seems systems today are too worried about power. The games are geared toward sound amd graphics, when they should go back to the roots and realize the best games require playbility. Wait, back on topic... So, it seems systems come out every 5 years regardless if they are significantly advnaced or not.

Now, to as why so many of you are waiting to see which system you will buy. Well, maybe that is because it will be a tough decision. Why? Because all 3 next Gen systems are pretty equal in power. These 3 new next gen systems have literally cought up with current technology. And, in another 5 years, they will catch up again. Yes, current systems are computers, so was the Atari 5200!

[Richter]

Also i don't want to bad mouth MS or the xbox360, but people should know that the xbox360 launch titles are only doing 30 frames per sec, some developers are getting hardd time even reaching 30, you can find this info on most sites while reading previews and all the poeple should know that the xbox360 launch titles will only use 1 CORE out of 3.

And last but not the least, people who BUY the console, don't forget that there is a possibility that MS may re-release an xbox360 with HD-DVD or Blue Ray.

I didn't know all their games were only moving at 30fps. I would expect more since this is next gen. I'd like to know if Gears of War is performing at 60fps.



no Cliffy B. said his goal is to run GEARS of War @ 30 fps, as much as this sux I was hoping we would get atleast 80 frames per sec this time on home consoles. The only games that is running at 60 frames per sec is DOA4 ...you wont see that extra 20 frames,why bother?

30 or 60, who cares? as long as the frame rate is a constant number

[sabre2922]

The second set of shots were slightly more accurate with the comparison between PSX FF8 and FFX on PS2 now there you can see a big improvement on the visuals.

I hate to criticize but comparing 2 CG shots was NOT a good idea it shows nothing about the differences in the older gen (PSX) vs. then next-gen (PS2).

Bottom line is that both the Xbox360 and PS3 will be very comparable in power and Im sure most multi-port games will look almost identical on both systems but those that are still brainwashed by Sony will once again believe in the freakin Sony hype about PS3 and never admit that 90% of the games look the same on both systems :roll:

That being said Im actually still very happy with current-gen even my PS2 still looks damn good to me but I am NOT the one of those that started out on PSX (nor are about 80% of the members of this board ;) most of us go waaaay back with the exception of a very few anyway I started out with the atari2600 and was amazed when I hooked up the NES to my RF color 13inch waaay back in the day and saw those nice shiny golden pipes in Super Mario Bros. LOL

My point is this after the Dreamcast and the advent of the current-gen systems I think its all gravy and most games look good to great on anything Dreamcast and up AT LEAST TO ME but Im not a graphics whore or I would have never sold my Xbox and stayed with PS2 since I do think the Xbox still has lots of untapped potential that will never see the light of day.

Do I think the Xbox360 games look impressive? YES

Do I think the PS3 will look god-almighty sooo much better than what second-gen 360 games will look like ? HELL NO

I DO think that the jump from PS2/Xbox/GC current-gen to Xbox360/PS3 is NOT A SIGNIFACANT LEAP OVER THE CURRENT GEN MACHINES and DOESNT EVEN COMPARE to when The Dreamcast was released and looked like a 3 generation jump from what the original PSX could ever muster.

NOw as far as the Revolution goes? who the hell knows ? Im sure it will have great looking games also possibly just under what the 360 and PS3 can do with all cyclinders firing.

Also I think that Microsoft could have supported the Xbox 1 for AT LEAST ANOTHER COUPLE YEARS and I do agree that Perfect Dark Zero would have looked very close on the original Xbox to what has been accomplished with the port to the 360 but that doesnt matter anymore does it? Microsoft made their choice and they are dropping a perfectly viable machine in order to go full swing into the next-generation with the 360.

In all reality the only current-gen machine that will be continually pushed (at least for another couple years) will be the PS2 wich is fine with me but I would have liked to see what developers could have done with the Gamecube and Xbox with a final last batch of games pushing both machines to their limits, but oh well.

[zerohero]

Let us go back in time for a sec here. The Atari 2600 came out in what? 1977 I believe. It was not until 1982 that the Atari 5200 came out. If you have played both systems, you would notice, well, not that much. You got more colors with the 5200, of course, a little better sound, but the games graphically were not that different. That was a difference of 5 years. In just 4 years later, the Atari 7800 came out to face Nintendo's NES system. Now, if you played all 3 Atari systems, you don't see much difference in the games. With the 7800, you got more colors than the 5200, the graphics a tad bit tighter, the sound much improved, but that is it. In 1986 the Atari Jr. came out also. The Atari 2600 had a life span of 10 years. So, even with other systems being released, such and Oddeyse 2, Intelellivision, ColecoVision (Released in 1982 I think), were people still buying up the Atari 2600? My answer, for the games. Games that did not have great graphics, nor great sound, but they surely had great playability. Something many games lack today. It seems systems today are too worried about power. The games are geared toward sound amd graphics, when they should go back to the roots and realize the best games require playbility. Wait, back on topic... So, it seems systems come out every 5 years regardless if they are significantly advnaced or not.

Now, to as why so many of you are waiting to see which system you will buy. Well, maybe that is because it will be a tough decision. Why? Because all 3 next Gen systems are pretty equal in power. These 3 new next gen systems have literally cought up with current technology. And, in another 5 years, they will catch up again. Yes, current systems are computers, so was the Atari 5200!

I never said I but graphics before games, what I was stating is that for the price of $400, I expected to see a vast improvement over the original. Like when we had the jump from PSX to Dreamcast, and PS2. You could tell the difference, and the systems have great games as well.