Some interesting PS3 news.

[njiska]

From Joystiq.com (http://www.joystiq.com/entry/1234000000065248/):
”The latest issue of Japanese economy magazine, Weekly Diamond, reveals that developers are unhappy with the state of PS3 development tools, and software is likely to be late in coming for the hardware.”

President of Enterbrain, Hirokazu Hamamura, also said: “We are unlikely to see games exhibiting a level only PS3 can achieve until the end of 2007,” due to the (alleged) fact that “PS3 dev tools have only just started shipping to developers this month, while 360 tools were shipped last summer.”

Comparisons to the PS2 launch were also made since Blu-ray is not as sure a thing as DVDs were five years ago.
--------------------------

I guess it's no wonder that we didn't see any playable PS3 games at TGS like Kutaragi-San had promised.

Kind of make me wonder what Epic and Konami had to do to have running interactive demos.

No tools till now and a predicted spring launch in Japan. Things are gonna get very interesting especially in regards to PS3's launch titles.

[rjohnson]

gettin my 360 360 360 gettin my bad mofo 360


woo hoo!

ps3 ? we'll hafta wait and seeeeeeee...

LOL

[Xizer]

The PS3 will suck.

[Cmtz]

The PS3 will suck.

you forgot to say "hard"!

[njiska]

The PS3 will suck.

Xizer, shut the fuck up and stop polluting threads. Nobody here cares.

On topic there's something i forgot to mention earlier. This report strongly supports the theory that Sony is just doing a smoke and mirror marketing strategy exactly like they did with the PS2. Sure some day it'll live up to the hype, but just not now.

[Sothy]

lol my company is sooo much better than ur stupid company.

[AMG]

This isn't good news. Looks like the PS3 will either be delayed or launch with a very limited amount of games.

I don't think Sony can let the release date slip too far because the X360 is going to be snatching up market shares starting next month. Not to mention the Revolution is on the way.

[Mianrtcv]

This was a good thread to start. That said another thread to fall into the "mine is better than yours" rants/theories.

That aside. I'll probably be picking up both when $$$ allows. I'll be enjoying both I'm sure. While the haters and fanboys & fangirls are isolating their gaming options. Silly, silly, silly. Thats the great part about all this. Learn from history kiddies. The only proof will be come game day. Till then previews are PRE-VIEWS. Get something before slamming it. Sidenote: TO ALL THOSE SILLY ENOUGH TO POST REVIEWS OF GAMES AND CONSOLES YOU HAVE NEVER PLAYED OR (SHUTTER) HAVE NOT EVEN BEEN RELEASED...Thank you, but stop. Some have provided many laughs, but most are just rants that usually have as much validity behind them as Jack Thompson does to the video gaming industry.

SORRY, TO GET BACK ON TOPIC.
All consoles that have been released in recent history have almost always had similar commentary associated with them.
Most consoles have had quotes similar to:
"this system seems be difficult to program for"
(gee, I guess my colecovision adam isn't going to help me make the next Halo or GTA after all)

"The system has limited capabilities as far as..."
(really, I thought it would pay my bills and visit my relatives at Xmas for me)

"The development is behind schedule..."
(PLEASE, as if that stopped anybody. Working Designs knows a little bit about being behind schedule as do many other companies, not just gaming)

"Costs are prohibitive..."
(yes, every time something new transpires costs may rise. for examples see updating new car models and similar events)

[DeputyMoniker]

No, Blu-Ray isnt as sure as DVD was but its still a fairly sure bet. One day people will have their HDTV's and they wont want to watch a low res DVD on their new high rez tv. Aside form that, if blu-ray & HD-DVD never work their differences out, however many PS3's sell will put Blu-Ray exactly that number of players above where HD-DVD is going to be starting.

I hope things improve for Sony.

[smokehouse]

On the Blu-Ray/HDDVD topic, it looks like Blu-Ray may have gained the upper hand. Blu-Ray has been picked up by most movie production houses where as HDDVD has been lagging behind. Thus the fact that HDDVD was supposed to be released next month and is now “delayed”. We’ll see, all I want is a HD media source for movies! I couldn’t give 2 shits less who makes it! All this stalling is driving me crazy!


Ok, back on topic. As far as the PS3 goes, I think Sony does need to be taken down a notch. I think the PS1 was a really good system but the PS2 slipped a bit. Compared to the Xbox and Gamecube and in some ways the Dreamcast, it is not really all that great of a system. Add that to high prices and hardware problems and you starting to see a company that’s getting too big for its britches. The PS3 seems like a cluster-fuck to me. They seem to be pushing too much too quickly and its going to hurt them.


Only time will tell though.

[syd]

Sony needs to improve their hardware and development tools before I start getting impressed with them. I think it's pretty unbelievable that they are just sending out their development software to third parties now. We definitely won't be seeing many incredible games for launch on this system if it gets launched in spring. These guys have to set up the dev environment and learn how to use it first, much less learn to use it to it's limits. Nope, not very impressive at all IMO! :/

[kevin_psx]

I think it's pretty unbelievable that Sony is just sending out their development software to third parties now.

Okay. How many months before the X360 launch did Microsoft send dev kits? QUOTE - "360 tools were shipped last summer." June? 5 months. -----> PS3's launch is likely Spring 2006 - april? Sony sent dev kits now in November. That's also 5-6 months.

Why is Microsoft's short 5 month lead-time okay? But Sony does the same & it's terrible?

Sense a double standard. Unless I misunderstood your point?




Beta vs. VHS - VHS won because it could record 2 times longer per tape than Beta. Customers were sold on the maximum time VHS provided.

HD vs. Bluray - Expect the same result. Bluray's got more space & holds more time.

k

[gepeto]

Epic and Konami both had Flux Capacitors daisy chained with dilithium crystals

[Diatribal Deity]

Well at least the debate has switched to development tools as opposed to system specs, where subsequently the real capabilities of the systems are revealed.

[s1lence]

Blah Blah Blah. The developers all said the same thing when the ps2 came out. "Its to hard to work with yadda yadd yadda." Didn't seem to effect the ps2 in its selling and production of games. :roll:

[Griking]

I'm still waiting to see games that take advantage of the PS2's super hyped "Emotion engine" and look as good as the Pre-PS2 launch demos. Is one supposed to be released any time before the PS3 is released? LOL

[kevin_psx]

I'm still waiting to see games that take advantage of the PS2's super hyped "Emotion engine" and look as good as the Pre-PS2 launch demos. LOL

Can you show us a pre-launch demo that exceeds current ps2 games? Really?

[Lothars]

The PS3 will suck.

well no your wrong

I honestly thing it's gonna be a better see of how things may turn out by the time the PS3 is released

but we will see what happens.

[Diatribal Deity]

Blah Blah Blah. The developers all said the same thing when the ps2 came out. "Its to hard to work with yadda yadd yadda." Didn't seem to effect the ps2 in its selling and production of games. :roll:

"I make fundamental decisions based on development tools and depth of documentation, which Microsoft has been superior on." -John Carmack

Several developers have also agreed with this stand-point, with even Metal Gear Solid 5 creator Hideo Kojima conceding that the difficulties of development on the PS3 would put many game creators off.

...so I guess we should ignore the ACTUAL programmers and game designers.

PLEASE NOTE: I don't mean this to be biased or inflammatory as I will be getting both systems with equal enthusiasm but last I checked this was a discussion forum.

Here is more of what he said and expressed:

"The particularly interesting thing on the other side of the fence with Sony is that they are at least making noises about having it be an open platform. This has always been an issue I disliked about consoles. I don't like closed development platforms and the fact you have to be a registered developer. I've always loathed that aspect. It's why I've always preferred the PC market, so we can do whatever we feel like – we can release mission packs and patch things - all of this good stuff that you're not allowed to do on consoles." Although he admitted that it wasn't clear how or if this openness would work, it was clearly something he would embrace if it existed: "If you had something like the Amiga used to be, which was a fixed format with a graphics focus, that would certainly be very interesting." And this was clearly his perceived advantage for PS3, saying that "Microsoft are certainly going to have nothing to do with" such an open attitude.

[kevin_psx]

"I make fundamental decisions based on development tools and depth of documentation, which Microsoft has been superior on." -John Carmack

How many months did Microsoft send dev kits? June? 5 months. -----> PS3's launch is likely Spring 2006 - april? Sony sent dev kits November. That's also 5-6 months.

Why is Microsoft's short 5 month lead okay? But Sony does the same & it's terrible?

Yeah repeating myself but it's an important point/question.



openness he would embrace: "If you had something like the Amiga used to be, which was a fixed format with a graphics focus, that would certainly be very interesting."

Like his comparison of PS3 open-endedness to Amiga. That game machine - uh, computer - was awesome! (ditto the commodore 64 game machine)

[Diatribal Deity]

Why is Microsoft's short 5 month lead okay? But Sony does the same & it's terrible?

Yeah repeating myself but it's an important point/question.


I should have added he said this as well (this refers to the types of development tools being worked on for each system and their major difference as it relates to difficulty, flexibility, and manipulation).

"I prefer the symmetric approach that MS has over the asymmetric Cell approach (Sony),"

So regardless of when they get their hands on the tools, one is going to be more fluid in the approach of the programmers-mind you John is no slouch in that department. Ultimately resulting in ideas and creativeness being integrated more easily and faster. PS3 development costs are going to balloon (as well as 360 to some extent) but longer projects means bigger bucks.

[kevin_psx]

I should have added he said this as well (this refers to the types of development tools being worked on for each system and their major difference as it relates to difficulty, flexibility, and manipulation).

"I prefer the symmetric approach that MS has over the asymmetric Cell approach (Sony),"

Symmetric meaning 3 identical CPUs is >>>>> 1 CPU + 7 coprocessors?

[rjohnson]

This was a good thread to start. That said another thread to fall into the "mine is better than yours" rants/theories.

That aside. I'll probably be picking up both when $$$ allows. I'll be enjoying both I'm sure. While the haters and fanboys & fangirls are isolating their gaming options. Silly, silly, silly. Thats the great part about all this. Learn from history kiddies. The only proof will be come game day. Till then previews are PRE-VIEWS. Get something before slamming it. Sidenote: TO ALL THOSE SILLY ENOUGH TO POST REVIEWS OF GAMES AND CONSOLES YOU HAVE NEVER PLAYED OR (SHUTTER) HAVE NOT EVEN BEEN RELEASED...Thank you, but stop. Some have provided many laughs, but most are just rants that usually have as much validity behind them as Jack Thompson does to the video gaming industry.

SORRY, TO GET BACK ON TOPIC.
All consoles that have been released in recent history have almost always had similar commentary associated with them.
Most consoles have had quotes similar to:
"this system seems be difficult to program for"
(gee, I guess my colecovision adam isn't going to help me make the next Halo or GTA after all)

"The system has limited capabilities as far as..."
(really, I thought it would pay my bills and visit my relatives at Xmas for me)

"The development is behind schedule..."
(PLEASE, as if that stopped anybody. Working Designs knows a little bit about being behind schedule as do many other companies, not just gaming)

"Costs are prohibitive..."
(yes, every time something new transpires costs may rise. for examples see updating new car models and similar events)

I have played a 360 and i really enjoy the look and feel of it. i LOVE bungie, and have been a fan of RARE for a LONG time... I have every system, multiple copies of some (2 ps2, 3 xbox, ~12 snes, 10 NES, etc...)...and have been playing crap and great systems since PONG's release....

SO if Sony screws up and Nintendo drops the ball...i wanna play where there are gonna be games to play that work as they should on systems that work as they should.

Microsoft (i HATE the company's rule/buy the world policy... i'm an avid MAC user) has done their homework, and done a lot of prep / development work and i think they are gonna kick butt this year and possibly next as well.

Bungie, RARE, Square and xbox live (all in the back pocket) will make sure of that....

I am no fan boy of any company (except Treasure that is / and old SNK)... i just wanna PLAY and it looks like MS is gonna let me... especially online!!! :hmm:

[syd]

I think it's pretty unbelievable that Sony is just sending out their development software to third parties now.

Okay. How many months before the X360 launch did Microsoft send dev kits? QUOTE - "360 tools were shipped last summer." June? 5 months. -----> PS3's launch is likely Spring 2006 - april? Sony sent dev kits now in November. That's also 5-6 months.

Why is Microsoft's short 5 month lead-time okay? But Sony does the same & it's terrible?

Sense a double standard. Unless I misunderstood your point?


Actually I understood "360 tools were shipped last summer" to mean that Microsoft sent out their developer's stuff in summer of 2004, which in that case would be lots of time. If they only sent it out June of this year, then they are just as bad as Sony. If companies do this with every system, then it's no wonder launch titles from 3rd parties are not as impressive as they could be. :/

Oh, and I wasn't trying to make a double standard, I'm not a fanboy of either of these companies. :)

[kevin_psx]

ooops - double post

[Arkaign]

I don't see too much changing with this new set of consoles. Nintendo will continue to dominate the completely unchallenged territory of family-friendly games and solid 80s franchises (Mario, Metroid, et al), Sony will continue to have a powerful status with RPGs and Adventures, and 360 will be hugely successful with Sports and FPS..

[njiska]

I think it's pretty unbelievable that Sony is just sending out their development software to third parties now.

Okay. How many months before the X360 launch did Microsoft send dev kits? QUOTE - "360 tools were shipped last summer." June? 5 months. -----> PS3's launch is likely Spring 2006 - april? Sony sent dev kits now in November. That's also 5-6 months.

Why is Microsoft's short 5 month lead-time okay? But Sony does the same & it's terrible?


That's relative to opinion. Does last summer mean this summer past or last year as i generally believe?

MS Beta kits, the ones resembling the 360 were released in May, more specifically just after E3. However they may have had a fair amount of development tools and documentation out to the developer's by then. We don't really know what was included with the Alphas that were release last summer (2004) so who's to say what devs received and when?

All that aside according to the good folks at ID Microsoft also has easier system to program for and that affects the amount of time required to develope a game.

It's like driving a ford vs. driving a Porchse Carrera GT. You're gonna learn how to drive the Ford considerably faster. [NOTE: THIS IS NOT MEANT TO BE A COMPARISION OF SYSTEM POWER. I'M SPECIFICALLY REFERING TO THE HANDLING OF EACH.]

[kevin_psx]

The PS2 controller sucks. Any game released for the system will instantly have shitty controls.
The PS2 version sucks. It looks and plays like shit, with worse graphics, a terrible control scheme.
All Sony does is make a system and whore it out to casual gamers, they don't even develop many games
Sony is the one who deserves a $ sign - with their constant shitting out consoles
What? The PS2 did suck ass.
The PS2 sucked cock, just like the PS1.

The PS3 will suck.

Can you lay off the anti-Sony hatred? Please? It's disruptive not productive. Thank you. -----> I don't know if I will buy PS3 or X360 or Nintendo. I can't say, "PS3 will suck". Neither can you. Because we ain't seen it yet!


All I know is the past:
Xbox = too many FPSes (which i hate)
Cube = good console but spoiled by mediocre exclusives (bought N64 instead)
PS2 = most games = most variety = most hours of genuine fun = joins Atari,nes,snes,ps1 as my favorite consoles

SOLD my cube, because I was BORED with it. Ditto the Xbox. Pretty graphics are great but the games were mediocre. Gameplay matters more to me than shiny T&A (reference to XXX Volleyball).



And apparently half the Japanese population are racists, because they don't like the Xbox 360 since it is a foreign console.
Oh brother

[kevin_psx]

That's relative to opinion. Does last summer mean this summer past or last year as i generally believe?

Summer 2004 = "two summers ago". -----> Given the original quote in post # 1 was made in October 2005 - the phrase "X360 tools were shipped last summer" = "last summer" = summer 2005.

Only 5-6 months ago.


All that aside according to the good folks at ID Microsoft also has easier system to program for and that affects the amount of time required to develope a game.

Why? Thought 3 separate cpus would be a major pain.

[njiska]

That's relative to opinion. Does last summer mean this summer past or last year as i generally believe?

Summer 2004 = "two summers ago".

Given the original quote in post # 1 was made in October 2005 - the phrase "X360 tools were shipped last summer" = "last summer" = summer 2005.

Only 5-6 months ago.

I still say it's open to interpurtation. I refer to Summer '04 as last Summer and Summer '05 as the summer and Summer '06 as next summer. I'm definitely not the only one who shares this viewpoint.

However as i mentioned above, it's not just the time that matters. If you have 5 months and it takes five months to master it then everything is cool. But if you have 5 months and it takes 10-12 months or more to master it, then you're royally fucked.

But like i said a lot of this is open to interuptation.

[kevin_psx]

I did a search on the net. The X360 development kits were shipped April 2005 - with European shipments as late as August 2005 - when some were stolen out of the mail. -----> So the guy named Syd who said: "I think it's pretty unbelievable that Sony is just sending out their development software to third parties now."


Is being unfair in my humble. Microsoft = Sony = only 5-6 months lead time before launch date. IMHO you should be bashing both companies equally.

Has Nintendo released their kits yet?

[njiska]

I did a search on the net. The X360 development kits were shipped April 2005 - with European shipments as late as August 2005 - when some were stolen out of the mail. -----> So the guy named Syd who said: "I think it's pretty unbelievable that Sony is just sending out their development software to third parties now."


Is being unfair in my humble. Microsoft = Sony = only 5-6 months lead time before launch date. IMHO you should be bashing both companies equally.

Has Nintendo released their kits yet?

Who knows or cares at this point. The Revolution is years off.

As for MS=Sony i think you're missing the point. This isn't about which company is better. It's about the programability of the hardware and the tools available.

The PS3 is hard to develope for, this has been firmly established, even by people only developing for the PS3.

The Xbox 360 is easier to develope for, this has also been firmly established by developers.

Beta kits for the 360 arrived around E3 (some developer's received them almost a month before others, but after E3 most deveoplers had them) and FINAL HARDWARE Dev kits arrived in august (not delayed beta's as you implied) The PS3 beta kits have only recently arrived to developers.

So by your admission of april that gives 8 months of development time, even thought developers had previously been developing on the Alpha kits since last summer (2004).

The PS3 Beta kits have only just arrived recently and that still gives 8 months of Dev time if Sony plans on a spring launch.

But 8 months of time doesn't mean that developer's can accomplish the same thing.

The Xbox 360 has good Dev tools and is easy to develope for according to the developers. The PS3 is difficult to develope for and apparently it's dev tools aren't the best. That means an XBOX 360 developer can do more in 8 months then a PS3 developer can.

It has nothing to do with the companies, it simply has to do with logic.

And nobody is bashing anybody. We're simply discussing how suprising it is that Sony is only getting their dev tools out now, despite all the hype.

[kevin_psx]

Who knows or cares at this point. The Revolution is years off.
Mid-2006 =/= years. Months.




So by your admission of april that gives 8 months of development time
6.



And nobody is bashing anybody. We're simply discussing how suprising it is that Sony is only getting their dev tools out now, despite all the hype.


Okay. I let Xizer's "PS1 sucks" - "PS2 sucks" - "PS3 will suck" get to me.

What was Sony's lead-time on the PS2 development kits?

[Anexanhume]

What I think is most important to realize about this generation is that sony, ms, and nintendo are investing a lot of money and effort in their respective technologies and games. That means we, as gamers, are the winners.

[Avenger]

with Microsoft strongly backing HD-DVD I dont see how Blu Ray can win...Microsoft has enough cash to get whatever they want...we all know that

[Arkaign]

Microsoft isn't invincible, *especially* when it comes to hardware. Blu-Ray vs. HD-DVD will be decided by content and price.

Microsoft's big chance to make HD-DVD a hit with it's weight went out the window when the standard wasn't stable or affordable enough to include in the millions of Xbox360s that will be sold.

The 'support' of HD-DVD by Microsoft is nothing more than a token effort in the console wars, because publically aligning with Blu-Ray would look really bad for it's own hardware.

[njiska]

Who knows or cares at this point. The Revolution is years off.
Mid-2006 =/= years. Months.

It's an expression meaning a long ways away. Persumably it's mid 06, but anything could change.



So by your admission of april that gives 8 months of development time
6.

1 April (they had kits during this month so it counts)
2 May
3 June
4 July
5 August
6 September
7 October
8 November (You can still develope in this month but not for long.

Let's just comprise and call it 7. To be honest though it doesn't really matter how long it is. My point was that even if the time is the same, you can do more in that time with better tools and an easier system then you can with hard tools and a complicated one.



And nobody is bashing anybody. We're simply discussing how suprising it is that Sony is only getting their dev tools out now, despite all the hype.

Okay. I let Xizer's "PS1 sucks" - "PS2 sucks" - "PS3 will suck" get to me.

Hey he gets to me too. Little punk doesn't know what he's getting into but your reprisal against fanboyism is respectable.

[DeputyMoniker]

[quote=syd]Beta vs. VHS -[/b] VHS won because it could record 2 times longer per tape than Beta. Customers were sold on the maximum time VHS provided.

No...VHS won because beta was too expencive and it looked quirky. That top loader looked like a gimmic & it looked too breakable.



What I think is most important to realize about this generation is that sony, ms, and nintendo are investing a lot of money and effort in their respective technologies and games. That means we, as gamers, are the winners.

Thank you for pointing that out.



with Microsoft strongly backing HD-DVD I dont see how Blu Ray can win...Microsoft has enough cash to get whatever they want...we all know that

Who is "we"? Speak for yourself. Exactly how far into this race did you become so violently brainwashed that you began to think that Sony isnt a powerhouse?

[Avenger]

some of you ppl are far too agressive..come on...we are talking about VIDEO GAMES...lighten up and relax, gezz

[Mianrtcv]

with Microsoft strongly backing HD-DVD I dont see how Blu Ray can win...Microsoft has enough cash to get whatever they want...we all know that

Who is "we"? Speak for yourself. Exactly how far into this race did you become so violently brainwashed that you began to think that Sony isnt a powerhouse?[/quote]

The HD-DVD vs. Blu Ray is much deeper than Sony Vs. Microsoft. The issue is industry wide in games and movies throughout many mega corporations. Neither side is without allies. If this was 6 months ago, I'd say MS was right backing HD-DVD. Now many movie industry co.'s are non-committal, re-thinking blu ray format (I hit some movie sites when not here). The format question/issue is still in the undecided column as for which will reign supreme.

[stressboy]

some of you ppl are far too agressive..come on...we are talking about VIDEO GAMES...lighten up and relax, gezz

Fanboyism is getting as bad as religion. I soon expect people to fight to the death over which console makes the most noise on startup.

[Mianrtcv]

Fanboyism is getting as bad as religion. I soon expect people to fight to the death over which console makes the most noise on startup.

I kid you not.... that was mentioned. I forget if it was its own thread. I do recall it was a point of fanboy contention.

[Arkaign]

heh, yeah there are fanboys galore for everything from car companies, game companies, political factions, etc. I think it's just an excuse to leave your brain in your sock drawer and blabber incessantly without logic or consideration of the fact that not everyone has the same opinions or preferences.

And yet, no one is totally unbiased. It's just important to realize the difference between your opinion and the opinions of others.

For example, I don't like Xbox. I have had bad experiences as a previous Xbox owner. Does that mean I personally think Xbox sucks? Yes. Does that mean I think anyone else should feel this way or even care? NO. I'm happy for those who are satisfied and enjoying theirs. This is a pretty big world, and it's pretty awesome that we have so many games and systems to choose from. It's far too nice a situation to go bitching to other people about how "BRAND X RULES, BRAND Y SUCKS, IF YOU LIKE BRAND Y YOU'RE A LOSER, NYA NYA NYA!"

Seriously, we're not in kindergarten anymore, and frankly, I've seen kindergartners with better manners and attitude than a lot of these fanboys.

Cheers.

[GarrettCRW]

No...VHS won because beta was too expencive and it looked quirky. That top loader looked like a gimmic & it looked too breakable.

Funny, my family's VCR was a high-end NEC Beta purchased in 1984, and that puppy loaded the same way modern VCRs do (though louder). I've also seen VHS players that were top loading.

Beta crashed and burned because in order to store 2 hour movies on one cassette, it had to use Beta II or Beta III, which caused rental tapes to die much faster, leading Mom and Pop video stores to carry VHS more because it was simply more feasible from an economic standpoint.

[DeputyMoniker]

Beta crashed...because (VHS) was simply more feasible from an economic standpoint.

...so we agree. 8-)

[kevin_psx]

No...VHS won because beta was too expencive and it looked quirky. Beta crashed and burned because in order to store 2 hour movies on one cassette, it had to use Beta II or Beta III, which caused rental tapes to die much faster, leading Mom and Pop video stores to carry VHS more

Yeah. Picture yourself in 1977 talking to a salesman at Sears (or Kmart or JCpenney):
YOU: "How much time can these tapes record?"
MAN: "1 hour for Beta. And VHS holds 2."*
YOU: "1 hour is too short to tape movies. I'll take the VHS."

Repeat this conversation a few million times and you see why - even though Beta was launched first - the consumers flocked to VHS. -------> * In 1977, there was only one speed. Beta 2 and Beta 3 were not added until 1979 and it was still not enough. Beta 3 = 4 hours max. VHS 3 = 9 hours max.

People want more bang for the buck. They buy the VHS because it holds twice as much tv. Same reason most gamers insist 50 hour game is better than a 10 hour game.




CUSTOMER: "How much time can these DVDs record?"
SALESMAN: "10 hours for HD-dvd. And Bluray holds 20." (estimated)
CUSTOMER: "Well dang, 20's better'n 10. I'll take the Bluray!"

[AMG]

heh, yeah there are fanboys galore for everything from car companies, game companies, political factions, etc. I think it's just an excuse to leave your brain in your sock drawer and blabber incessantly without logic or consideration of the fact that not everyone has the same opinions or preferences.

And yet, no one is totally unbiased. It's just important to realize the difference between your opinion and the opinions of others.

For example, I don't like Xbox. I have had bad experiences as a previous Xbox owner. Does that mean I personally think Xbox sucks? Yes. Does that mean I think anyone else should feel this way or even care? NO. I'm happy for those who are satisfied and enjoying theirs. This is a pretty big world, and it's pretty awesome that we have so many games and systems to choose from. It's far too nice a situation to go bitching to other people about how "BRAND X RULES, BRAND Y SUCKS, IF YOU LIKE BRAND Y YOU'RE A LOSER, NYA NYA NYA!"

Seriously, we're not in kindergarten anymore, and frankly, I've seen kindergartners with better manners and attitude than a lot of these fanboys.

Cheers.


Good post, I agree 100%.

[DeputyMoniker]

No...VHS won because beta was too expencive and it looked quirky. Beta crashed and burned because in order to store 2 hour movies on one cassette, it had to use Beta II or Beta III, which caused rental tapes to die much faster, leading Mom and Pop video stores to carry VHS more

Yeah. Picture yourself in 1977 talking to a salesman at Sears (or Kmart or JCpenney):
YOU: "How much time can these tapes record?"
MAN: "1 hour for Beta. And VHS holds 2."*
YOU: "1 hour is too short to tape movies. I'll take the VHS."

Repeat this conversation a few million times and you see why - even though Beta was launched first - the consumers flocked to VHS. -------> * In 1977, there was only one speed. Beta 2 and Beta 3 were not added until 1979 and it was still not enough. Beta 3 = 4 hours max. VHS 3 = 9 hours max.

People want more bang for the buck. They buy the VHS because it holds twice as much tv. Same reason most gamers insist 50 hour game is better than a 10 hour game.




CUSTOMER: "How much time can these DVDs record?"
SALESMAN: "10 hours for HD-dvd. And Bluray holds 20." (estimated)
CUSTOMER: "Well dang, 20's better'n 10. I'll take the Bluray!"


Yeah because recording movies was very common in the '70s. Millions of consumers knew to ask that question. Thats the same reason Dells come with a 400GB HDD instead of a 40GB HDD...because everybody knows to ask. Same thing with TIVO...everybody knows to ask how long they can record.
We arent talking about gas milage. Were talking technology...common consumers buy whats cheaper. Otherwise we would all be watching HDTV with our 300 hour TIVOs and baseline Dells would come with a 400GB HDD. Man, we really shit on this thread.

[kevin_psx]

Yeah. Picture yourself in 1977 talking to a salesman at Sears (or Kmart or JCpenney):
YOU: "How much time can these tapes record?"
MAN: "1 hour for Beta. And VHS holds 2."*
YOU: "1 hour is too short to tape movies. I'll take the VHS."
Yeah because recording movies was very common in the '70s. .... We arent talking about gas milage. Were talking technology...common consumers buy whats cheaper.


1977 consumers were not dumb. They knew if they went out to dinner a 1 hour beta was not adequate to tape their favorite shows, or movie, or sports.

So they chose the 2 hour VHS.

Simple.

[devils advocate]

Yeah. Picture yourself in 1977 talking to a salesman at Sears (or Kmart or JCpenney):
YOU: "How much time can these tapes record?"
MAN: "1 hour for Beta. And VHS holds 2."*
YOU: "1 hour is too short to tape movies. I'll take the VHS."
Yeah because recording movies was very common in the '70s. .... We arent talking about gas milage. Were talking technology...common consumers buy whats cheaper.


1977 consumers were not dumb. They knew if they went out to dinner a 1 hour beta was not adequate to tape their favorite shows, or movie, or sports.

So they chose the 2 hour VHS.

Simple.

It's not simple. And the reason for the death of Betamax is not what any of you have stated. Here goes, but it's really very similiar to why Gamecube has less games than the others, except it's a hardware licensing issue, not software.

Two different companies owned the rights to the 2 competing medias. Sony with Beta, and somebody with VHS (We used this in one of my commerce courses years ago, but I can't remeber who, I'm sure someone here can though).
For third parties to manufacture hardware with either media, they had to license the technology from its owner.
VHS was more than willing to license out, where as Sony wanted tighter controls over their technology.

So, for better or worse VHS gradually started to dominate the hardware market for both residential and business consumers.
Music applications were mostly dominated by Beta, so they won in that market. Some TV and radio stations still have beta machines in use today!
Now general consumer sales had risen, and business as well. Who do you think manufacturers wanted to make movies for? A system with a large and growing installed base, or a system with a focused,well received but stagnant market?

Anyway, that's the abridged version, but you get the point. Sony has a similiar tale to tell with Minidiscs as well. Hmmm. You can find those in lots of radio stations still as well.

So sadly Kevin while Vhs abilities or lack thereof may have influenced a few tech conscious people. The real reason for its success is similiar to most things. acceptance as an industry standard, within said industry. Same concept can be applied to modern game systems even.

[kevin_psx]

Still disagree. But you won't listen to me. (oh well) Maybe you'll listen to Experts?


Betamax had owned the market, but lost it because Sony got one simple decision wrong. It chose to make smaller, neater tapes that lasted for an hour, whereas the VHS manufacturers used basically the same technology with a bulkier tape that lasted two hours.

Instead of poring over the sound and picture quality, reviewers could simply have taken the systems home. Their spouses/children/grandparents and everybody else would quickly have told them the truth. "We're going out tonight and I want to record a movie. That Betamax tape is useless: it isn't long enough. Get rid of it."

Betamax was the first successful consumer video format, and at one time it had close to 100% of the market. All of the video machines in use and all of the pre-recorded movies were Betamax. It had a de facto monopoly, and an element of lock-in (because of tape incompatibilities).

It lost because, at the time, it could not do what consumers wanted: record a whole movie unattended. And although Betamax playing times were extended, they never caught up with VHS.



For consumers in the 1970's, the most immediately obvious difference between the two formats was the recording length. Standard Betamax tapes lasted 60 minutes — not long enough to record a movie. Conversely, the 2-to-3-hour VHS tapes were perfect for recording television programmes and movies. Sony did adapt and offer various solutions for longer recording, but it was too late. The issue of recording time is often cited as the most defining factor in the war

sources -
http://technology.guardian.co.uk/online/comment/story/0,12449,881780,00.html
http://www.mediacollege.com/video/format/compare/betamax-vhs.html



I long ago - 1998? - threw out my VHS and replaced it with Super VHS. I grew tired of VHS' blurry pictures. S-VHS lets me record live TV w/o visible loss in signal.

S-VHS is an example of "industry standard" that was universally accepted - but still flopped! It's the people standing in Sears or Kmart or Walmart, deciding what to buy, who determine success or failure.

k

[Arkaign]

Well maybe now that the Beta vs VHS wars are over .. we can get back to games ;)

[kevin_psx]

I predict

PS3 or maybe X360 or possibly Nintendo will win the 2005-2010 war



O_O LOL

[devils advocate]

"The victory was not due to any technical superiority (Betamax is arguably a better format), but to several factors. Exactly how and why VHS won the war has been the subject of intense debate. The commonly-held belief is that the technically superior Betamax was beaten by VHS through slick marketing. In fact the truth is more complex and there were a number of reasons for the outcome.

Sony's founder, Akio Morita, claimed that licensing problems between Sony and other companies slowed the growth of Betamax and allowed VHS to become established. However most commentators have played down this issue and cited other reasons as being more important."



Kevin, don't post blatently biased articles. Read the excerpt above. It's from YOUR OWN article.
Now, read the last line. Sony's own founder said it was licensing. Then this author says other ""commentators" say otherwise . Which other "commentators"? And who could possibly have better knowledge than one of the generals of the war?
This is this persons OPINION. nothing else.

[kevin_psx]

ooops -double post

[Arkaign]

I predict

PS3 or maybe X360 or possibly Nintendo will win the 2005-2010 war



O_O LOL

Heh, well I think you might be onto something .. or on something LOL

[devils advocate]

"The whole product" model also provided a convincing explanation of why VHS had thrashed Betamax. VHS offered a bigger choice of hardware at lower cost, the tapes were cheaper and more easily available, there were a lot more movies to rent, and so on. All of this matched my own experience. "


Well this is from the other article, and if anyone reads the other one, they will find this to totally contradict the other.

One guy says vhs movies were dominating the market, and the other says beta was.

These articles aren't from experts. One is unauthored, and I've never heard of the author from the other. Jack who?
Is he a media expert, salesperson, audiophile what?. But most important, what is his relationship with commerce? I'm to lazy to google him...

[kevin_psx]

Obviously I'm not going to change your mind (Beta = minidisc = doomed to fail non-standard). And you won't change my mind (standards don't determine success ---> customers decide sucess or failure - and if Beta 1977 had 2-hour tapes it would still be here).


Having worked in sales I've seen the "We're going out tonight and I want to record a movie. That Betamax tape isn't long enough. Buy a 2-hour VHS" - type argument between husbands & wives.


So what say - we just drop it?

[njiska]

I predict

PS3 or maybe X360 or possibly Nintendo will win the 2005-2010 war



O_O LOL

I predict that the battle between Sony and Microsoft is gonna cause an industry crash. They're both taking the expensive routes while Nintendo isn't.

Honestly looking at the PS3 and the 360 i have a feeling that it's pretty much gonna be a stalemate in NA right up till the very end.

[The Manimal]

If the PS3 release price is reasonable + I actually buy an HDTV by the time of it's release + there's a decent number of Blu-Ray discs available = I'll buy a PS3 at launch. LOL