SNES VS. AMIGA [Archive] - Retrogaming Roundtable

CaryMG

10-31-2005, 08:32 AM

As ultracool as the AMIGA is -- I'm still tryin' ta hunt down an AMIGA 1200 lol -- I'd always looked at the SNES as a "Plug & Play" version of it: all the colors .... fantastic stereo sound .... polygonal graphics ....

Let's look at the specs ....

http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b227/softBoy/SNESVSAMIGAc.jpg

Not too dissimilar ....

This is why I say so much that the SNES was an absolute masterpiece of a machine --with a 3D chip designed by Brits! -- that was so tragically underutilized ....
And it's also why I so wanna learn how ta program for it ....

Thoughts?

Later!
:) :) :)

kevin_psx

10-31-2005, 08:45 AM

As ultracool as the AMIGA is -- I'd always looked at the SNES as a "Plug & Play" version of it: all the colors .... fantastic stereo sound .... polygonal graphics .... A stock SNES didn't have polygonal graphics. A stock SNES was too slow to do polygons. (If ya disagree please show me a non-superfx game with polygons - thanks)

Compare Amiga to Genesis - near identical hardware (68000 based) & a huge chunk of the software was direct ports from Amiga to Genesis - like Populous

CPU: Motorola 68000 at 7.14 MHz - like Amiga
- 1 MByte (8 Mbit) RAM Area - like Amiga
- 64 KByte ROM Area
- 64 colors on screen - like Amiga (half-tone mode)
- 4096 color palette - like Amiga

And Genesis used dedicated coprocessors for graphics & sounds - like Amiga.
When I think "plug'n'play Amiga" I think of the Genesis.

k

[-Sentinel-]

10-31-2005, 08:59 AM

I never saw an Amiga. :roll:

kevin_psx

10-31-2005, 09:01 AM

LemonAmiga tells you everything you wanted to know about the Commodore Amiga. HARDWARE PICS = http://www.lemonamiga.com/?mainurl=http%3A//www.lemonamiga.com/help/models/

Ever heard of Commodore VIC-20 or 64? Amiga was essentially the 16-bit version of those machines. Great graphics & sound made Commodore 64 and Amiga the best gaming machines of the 80's and early 90's.

anagrama

10-31-2005, 09:08 AM

please show me a non-superfx game with polygons - thanks

Drakkhen?

But yeah, that withstanding, the Amiga could handle polys much better. It's not really possible to make a direct comparison though - as a rule, arcadey/action games were much better on the consoles (ever tried playing SFII on the Amiga? @_@ Jesus!), while strategy/simulation type games could be much better handled by the Amiga.

Oh, and anyone with an Amiga who hasn't played Activision's magnificent Hunter is doing themselves a great disservice - go track it down now!

[-Sentinel-]

10-31-2005, 09:15 AM

robotriot

10-31-2005, 09:18 AM

Well, I'm an Amiga fanboy so it's no question as to who wins of course ;) The SNES should probably be compared to an A1200 anyway since it was released only about one year later, which was able to display 256 colours in realtime, just like the SNES (later "hacks" enabled 200,000+ colours in realtime (which was until then only available in the static HAM modes), but I don't think any games use those modes). And I can't stand the SNES soundchip, yay for Paula and samples :P Of course one can't deny the advantages of cartridges, fast loading and no disk errors and such things. But thanks to HD installs, this issue isn't that relevant anymore ^^

Flack

10-31-2005, 09:21 AM

... I'm still tryin' ta hunt down an AMIGA 1200 lol ...

You'll have to start keeping a closer eye on the Digital Press buying and selling forums. I just bought one from here last week for $20.

CaryMG

10-31-2005, 09:46 AM

You'll have to start keeping a closer eye on the Digital Press buying and selling forums.
I just bought [an AMIGA 1200] from here last week for $20.

WHOAness .....

Later!
:) :) :)

le geek

10-31-2005, 10:45 AM

I prefer the Amiga. Much better sound, crisp RGB display. It may be the best 2D system besides the Neo-Geo...

However the SNES has no load times, and probably has slightly better games, particularly in terms of vs. fighting and platforming...

Cheers,
Ben

Jorpho

10-31-2005, 03:56 PM

Arkaign

10-31-2005, 06:01 PM

The info listed for the SNES color pallette is incorrect.

Complete specs :

Video
Picture Processor Unit: 16-Bit
Video RAM: 128 KB
64 KB of VRAM for screen maps (for 'background' layers) and tile sets (for backgrounds and objects);
64 KB for sprite layers, 512 + 32 bytes of 'OAM' (Object Attribute Memory) for objects; 512 bytes of 'CGRAM' for palette data.
Palette: 256 entries; 15-Bit color depth (RGB555) for a total of 32,768 colors.
Maximum colors per layer per scanline: 256.
Maximum colors on-screen: 4096 without alpha and 32,768 (using color arithmetic for transparency effects).
Maximum colors per sprite : 128
Resolution: between 256x224 and 512x448. Most games used 256x224, 320x224, 512x224 pixels since higher resoulutions caused slowdown, flicker, and/or had increased limitations on layers and colors (due to memory bandwidth constraints); the higher resolutions were used for less processor-intensive games, in-game menus, text, and high resolution images.
Maximum onscreen objects (sprites): 128 (32 per line, up to 34 8x8 tiles per line).
Maximum number of sprite pixels on one scanline: 256. The renderer was designed such that it would drop the frontmost sprites instead of the rearmost sprites if a scanline exceeded the limit, allowing for creative clipping effects.
Most common display modes: Pixel-to-pixel text mode 1 (16 colors per tile; 3 scrolling layers) and affine mapped text mode 7 (256 colors per tile; one rotating/scaling layer).

CaryMG

12-01-2005, 10:26 AM

icbrkr

12-01-2005, 02:42 PM

The info listed for the SNES color pallette is incorrect.
Maximum colors on-screen: 4096 without alpha and 32,768 (using color arithmetic for transparency effects).

http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b227/softBoy/SNESVSAMIGAb.jpg

kk -- I've updated the chart.
Thanks again !

Later!
:) :) :)

You're comparing a 1985-1987 era Amiga to a 1991 SNES. The Amiga's that were being produced in 1992 (cept for the A600) , primarily the A1200, had:

16.8 million colors (~256K onscreen at once)
14Mhz 68EC020 processor (32bit)
2MB RAM
880K floppy (most Amigas came with this)

Even the A600 which came out in 1992 had 1MB of RAM, the A3000 which came out in 1990/1991 had a 030/16Mhz or 030/25Mhz and 2MB.

Jagasian

12-01-2005, 03:03 PM

The medium size for the SNES varies depending on the cart. The largest carts were 6MB in size, but the SNES could easily handle larger sizes. Also polygonal graphics and ray tracing are not a feature of the hardware of either system. Even the NES had polygonal graphics, due to the masterful programming found in Elite!

As implied earlier, the SNES used many different co-processors in its game's carts. There was the DSP1 chip used in Super Mario Kart, Pilot Wings, etc. There was the FX chip used in Star Fox 1, Doom, etc. There was even the SA-1 chip used in Kirby Super Star, Kirby's Dream Land 3, and Super Mario RPG... and this chip was basically the same general purpose CPU found in the SNES, but much faster at 10Mhz!

So a comparison of the SNES's CPU versus the Amiga's is comparing apples and oranges.

I prefer the Amiga. Much better sound, crisp RGB display. It may be the best 2D system besides the Neo-Geo...

However the SNES has no load times, and probably has slightly better games, particularly in terms of vs. fighting and platforming...

Cheers,
Ben

The Amiga has better sound than the SNES? Are you serious? The SNES's sound processor was way ahead of its time. It can even be easily modded for high-def digital audio output. Also, the SNES supports RGB video without any modification. Nintendo even made an official RGB SCART multi-out cable.

CaryMG

12-01-2005, 03:29 PM

Even the NES had polygonal graphics, due to the masterful programming found in "Elite"!

Whuzzah ?!?
3D polygonal graphics on a NES ?!?
SO thank you for the absolutely rocking heads-up, Jag !! 8^ ]

CaryMG Rushes Over To The "Elite" NES ROM (http://www.theoldcomputer.com/Libarary%27s/Emulation/NES/ROMs/NES_roms_summary%200-L.htm#-L.htm) & Plays It In The "FCE Ultra" NES Emulator (http://www.theoldcomputer.com/Libarary%27s/Emulation/emulators_summary.htm)

Later!
:) :) :)

Truffle

12-01-2005, 03:29 PM

I was never fond of the low color palette on the Genesis.

.

My only real issue with the console. To this day...I still wonder why it bothers me so much :roll:

darknut101

12-01-2005, 06:25 PM

This is why I say so much that the SNES was an absolute masterpiece of a machine --with a 3D chip designed by Brits! -- that was so tragically underutilized ....
And it's also why I so wanna learn how ta program for it ....

I don't understand why anyone would want to go through the hassle to learn to do 3D on the SNES. You can do so much more in DirectX on a PC with so much less of a hassle. I understand programming older-style 2D games for it but 3D? Not to mention you can't do 3D on the SNES without the FX chip.

CaryMG

12-01-2005, 06:55 PM

I don't understand why anyone would want to go through the hassle to learn to do 3D on the SNES.
You can do so much more in "DirectX" on a PC with so much less of a hassle.

Including FlatShaded, "without-the-fancy-textures" 3D polygons, Dark?

If so, where can I go ta get a devkit that'd allow me ta do that in "Windows" ?

Thanks In Advance!
:) :) :)

Ed Oscuro

12-01-2005, 07:10 PM

According to old-computers.com, here's the Amiga A1200's graphics system:

AA Graphics System, colour palette: up to 16.8 million colours (24 Bit), 256 of them displayable simultaneously or up to 262144 in HAM-8 mode
I've no clue what HAM-8 mode is or if it was usable for gaming. I do know that games of the period didn't make use of 256K color palettes, though. Just think about it - that'd be like having a JPEG onscreen.

The medium size for the SNES varies depending on the cart. The largest carts were 6MB in size
For common carts, but there's 24MByte games out there.

And for Amiga A1200...yes, a great computer with good stuff across the board. I'm not quite sure how it stacks up to the x68000 - I suspect the mainstream, targeted Amiga model lagged behind the x68K in the graphics and sound department (though you didn't need so many floppies!), but the common user interface is universally regarded as one of the most advanced of the time.

darknut101

12-01-2005, 07:47 PM

I don't understand why anyone would want to go through the hassle to learn to do 3D on the SNES.
You can do so much more in "DirectX" on a PC with so much less of a hassle.

Including PhongShaded, "without-the-fancy-textures" 3D polygons, Dark?

If so, where can I go ta get a devkit that'd allow me ta do that in "Windows" ?

Thanks In Advance!
:) :) :)

I'm almost positive the Direct X API supports phong shading. Not sure what you mean by a dev kit for Windows though. Just learn C++ and the DirectX API. I just think it would be easier to learn a high-end language with an API instead of learning the SNES assembly and all. Although I have been quite interested in learning 6502 assembly so I can do some NES games.

Julio III

12-01-2005, 09:48 PM

According to old-computers.com, here's the Amiga A1200's graphics system:

AA Graphics System, colour palette: up to 16.8 million colours (24 Bit), 256 of them displayable simultaneously or up to 262144 in HAM-8 mode
I've no clue what HAM-8 mode is or if it was usable for gaming. I do know that games of the period didn't make use of 256K color palettes, though. Just think about it - that'd be like having a JPEG onscreen.

Well, HAM stands for Hold And Modify. I don't really know what it is but it is something along the lines of it draws the normal amount of colours to the screen and then draws the screen again and it can then add in more colours. So the more times you do this the more colours you can display at once however it is more suitable for still images as the whole screen wouldn't refresh fast enough if it had to keep drawing to the screen many times.

Jorpho

12-01-2005, 10:21 PM

Indeed, the same trick could be done with a GBC.

Blanka789

12-01-2005, 10:24 PM

PS1Expert

12-02-2005, 07:21 AM

I daresay the 65C816 was probably quite different from the 68k, especially since there are signs that Nintendo might have been aiming for NES compatibility at one point.

I was never fond of the low color palette on the Genesis.

Ever heard of Commodore VIC-20 or 64? Amiga was essentially the 16-bit version of those machines. Great graphics & sound made Commodore 64 and Amiga the best gaming machines of the 80's and early 90's.

Actually, I've heard it said that the Amiga is really the descendent or the Atari 8-bit line, and that the Atari ST is actually the true successor the the C64 - that's just how the designers moved around.

I've heard this many times, but I still don't understand why it would be this way.

http://www.atari-explorer.com/history/history8.html

Read that article above. About in the middle of the article it talks about how Atari was developing a computer around the Amiga chipset, then Commodore won the rights and Jack Tramel (former owner of Commodore, new owner of Atari) developed the Atari ST in a short number of months.

kevin_psx

12-02-2005, 12:30 PM

Ever heard of Commodore VIC-20 or 64? Amiga was essentially the 16-bit version of those machines. Great graphics & sound made Commodore 64 and Amiga the best gaming machines of the 80's and early 90's.
Actually, I've heard it said that the Amiga is really the descendent of the Atari 8-bit line, and that the Atari ST is actually the true successor the the C64 - that's just how the designers moved around.

Yeah. Jay Miner(?) designed Atari 800 and Amiga chips so they have the same father. ST has no relation to Commodore 64. ST's just a generic 68000 computer with so-so graphics and lousy sound (think beep-beep). ST is to Amiga -as- RC Cola is to Coca-Cola. Inferior clone.

Amiga carries the "C64 spirit" - using sounds/graphics to make a great gaming machine. Amiga even ran much of the same software - including a C64 emulator.

To repeat - If you want Amiga as console - the Sega Genesis is much closer than SNES. Genesis = Same CPU. Similar graphics/sound capabilites. Many, many Amiga games.

CPU: Motorola 68000 at 7.14 MHz - like Amiga
- 1 MByte (8 Mbit) RAM Area - like Amiga
- 64 KByte ROM Area
- 64 colors on screen - like Amiga (half-tone mode)
- 4096 color palette - like Amiga

And Genesis used dedicated coprocessors for graphics & sounds - like Amiga. When I think "plug'n'play Amiga" I think of the Genesis.

PS1Expert

12-02-2005, 12:48 PM

ST's just a generic 68000 computer with so-so graphics and lousy sound (think beep-beep). ST is to Amiga -as- RC Cola is to Coca-Cola. Inferior clone.

First off, I like RC Cola better than Coke. Therefore, the Atari ST was a damn good PC and the sound was sure a lot better than anything else available besides Amiga. I had an Atari ST and there were some kick *ss games. I remember though that Amiga got Marble Madness first (because EA fully supported Amiga). We ST users were pissed. Then EA finally decided to port Marble Madness over and it was inferior....on purpose. Bah. I have hated EA ever since then.

Ok, I was an Atari ST fan. However, I did end up getting an Amiga 500. Amiga has stereo sound (better than the ST). Amiga's games looked better as well. I played Turrican on the ST and compared it to the Amiga. No comparison in fact! Amiga hands-down ruled. And the Amiga's operating system...multi-tasking?!?! To this day I still say that the Amiga's multitasking OS works a lot better than Microsoft's Windows. (Anyone else think that??)

So don't trash the ST. It was created in 6 months and was a wonderful machine, better than Apple IIgs and many Midi users still have an ST. It has it's positives (Dungeon Master, OIDS!). But for gaming, Amiga was better overall. (Amiga was better than Genesis and SNES and PS1 IMO because of the variety of games, although I would have a hard time playing them today because of the loading time from a floppy)

Also, I assume everyone knows this, but Atari Lynx games were created with Amiga computers (not ST's). Sort of funny?

fishsandwich

12-02-2005, 12:52 PM

I got an NTSC CD32 for the sole purpose of playing Amiga games. Unfortunately, the compilation disk only runs in PAL.

Dammit! Some of the games on the disk look totally cool. We USA's seems to have missed on on much Amiga goodness.

:/

CaryMG

12-02-2005, 01:51 PM

Just learn C++ and the DirectX API.
I just think it would be easier to learn a high-end language with an API instead of learning the SNES assembly and all.

I didn't understand a word ya said but I SO will give it a shot! lol

I SO think that there's an "FlatShaded 3D Polygonal Graphics Asthete" -- similar to what fans feel about vektorgraphics.
Ther's look & a feel to it that's kinda cool, ya know?
Here're some examples of what I mean ....

http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c144/forumepix/TheDionCrisis.jpg

http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c144/forumepix/ChuckYeagersAirCombatx.jpg

http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c144/forumepix/StuntRaceFXd.jpg
"StuntRace FX"

Ya know?

It's kinda/sorta "direct-and-to-the-point" nice! lol

Hmm ....
Think I'll start a topic on that ....

Later!
:) :) :)

kevin_psx

12-02-2005, 01:56 PM

So don't trash the ST. It was created in 6 months and was a wonderful machine, better than Apple IIgs and many Midi users still have an ST.

Sorry. I tend to narrow my choices to the best. My feeling is - Why waste time with #2?

AppleIIgs is 8-bit. "ST is better" is hardly surprising.

Ed Oscuro

12-02-2005, 04:25 PM

AppleIIgs is 8-bit. "ST is better" is hardly surprising.
Well, the Apple //gs dates from 1986. Had Apple put out the + upgrades the team made in 1991, who knows...

Another thing to remember is that Apple Corp. reached an agreement with Apple Records - the group reponsible for marketing Beatles music - never to enter the music industry, and that included putting music chips in their machines. The Apple IIgs design broke this agreement, and Apple was sued. Since then, Apple computers since then have used software synth, and third party soundcards are available.

robotriot

12-02-2005, 05:16 PM

Regarding the HAM issue that has come up again, please read my first post in this thread, it kind of explains it in a non-technical way ;)

The Amiga has better sound than the SNES? Are you serious? The SNES's sound processor was way ahead of its time. It can even be easily modded for high-def digital audio output. Also, the SNES supports RGB video without any modification. Nintendo even made an official RGB SCART multi-out cable.

Heh, imo the SNES sounds a lot like the MIDI stuff you can hear on PC, I just can't stand it :P The Paula sound chip used in all Amigas can play MP3s in 14bit/stereo, I think that's pretty amazing for a soundchip that has been unchanged since 1985 ^^

kevin_psx

12-02-2005, 07:23 PM

Don't know technical - but based on hearing - Amiga sounds better. It captured spoken speech & intruments like guitars. Nothing SNES came close to Amiga rock songs & house party music.

Same with Commodore 64 v. NES. C64's SID chip ran circles around the NES.

As expected - $1000 computer vs. $250 console - when first released - you expect the more expensive computer to sound better.

Jorpho

12-02-2005, 10:38 PM

Don't know technical - but based on hearing - Amiga sounds better. It captured spoken speech & intruments like guitars. Nothing SNES came close to Amiga rock songs & house party music.

Eh? The SNES was quite capable of using sampled instruments and speech samples. The most spectacular example that comes to mind is Uematsu's soundtrack for BS Dynami Tracer; you should be able to find it wherever fine SPCs are available.

Arqueologia_Digital

12-02-2005, 11:17 PM

]I never saw an Amiga. :roll:
:roll:

Ed Oscuro

12-03-2005, 02:03 AM

Regarding the HAM issue that has come up again, please read my first post in this thread, it kind of explains it in a non-technical way ;)
Two words is an explanation? I guess, but I didn't realize what I was looking at when skimming the post...

Anyhow, I'll be checking out that BS Dynami Tracer...but my money's still on Plok. :P

AntiPasta

12-03-2005, 08:48 AM

And let's not forget the Amiga's wonderful demoscene (going OT a little bit here).

/me mourns selling a complete A1200 set with 8 boxed games for 30e... the fact that the buyer drove halfway across the country at night to get it should've been an indication x_x

kevin_psx

12-03-2005, 12:02 PM

Don't regret selling my Amiga but do regret selling the Commodore 128. I got $400 for it - so can't complain too loudly - but I miss the awesome games.

Two words is an explanation? I guess, but I didn't realize what I was looking at when skimming the post...

HAM = Hold-And-Modify Mode = similar to JPEG = a form of memory compression. Instead of 12 bits to store 4096 color values - HAM uses 6 bits & a complicated interpolation scheme.

Result - 4096 colors but a somewhat blurry picture. Not the same - but similar - flaw JPEG has with its lossy compression.

Amiga 1000 had to use the HAM 6-bit compression because of the limited 256 kilobyte memory. It couldn't do true uncompressed 12-bit color.

tom

12-03-2005, 06:26 PM

Wasn't Jay Miner (R.I.P.) involved with the VCS, so the Amiga roots lay there.

Remember, Amiga did the Joyboard and those cool Joysticks for the VCS as well.

Flojomojo

08-06-2015, 09:25 PM

Including FlatShaded, "without-the-fancy-textures" 3D polygons, Dark?

If so, where can I go ta get a devkit that'd allow me ta do that in "Windows" ?

Thanks In Advance!
:) :) :)
I know you posted that question ten years ago, but I hope you're using Unity today!

Dashopepper

08-07-2015, 07:34 PM

Since this thread has been brought back to life does the rotating Triforce at the beginning of Link to the Past count as 3d graphics?

Tanooki

08-07-2015, 11:48 PM

The would think so as they are rendered as such. If not there is star trek starfleet academy which does a lot and with no special chips.

ccovell

08-08-2015, 10:18 AM

... And as long as we're resurrecting this thread, I wanted to point out technical errors:
http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b227/softBoy/SNESVSAMIGAb.jpg

Both the [ECS] Amiga and SNES have multiple graphics modes with different colour limitations. The Amiga can do 4096 colours at once in HAM, and there are in fact a few games that have their in-game graphics in HAM. The SNES has a 2048-colour (at once) mode, but I don't know of any games that actually use it. This mode is also seriously limited, far more than HAM, in that it still uses a base palette of 256 colours, but tiles can use 1 of 8 colour tone variations of the base palette. The Amiga also has a 64-colour halfbrite mode that, again, is used in some games. So it's not a simple 32 vs 256 comparison.

HAM is indeed "like a JPEG" but is not the same as a high-colour mode on something like the GBC. On the GBC the CPU has to intervene and re-load the palette on every scanline, whereas HAM does not need CPU intervention: the graphics hardware manages its display all by itself.

"3D Polygonal Graphics... Yes" doesn't say much. How many polygons, and at what speed? ... would be a more enlightening answer.

Ray Tracing.... uhm, excuse me? Ray Tracing means actually building a photorealistic scene out of stored polygon & geometric data, and there are of course (correct me if I'm wrong) no ray tracers on the SNES, yet the 7Mhz Amiga 500 has ray-tracing software for it. (And as mentioned, this is not a hardware feature.)

If "Ray Tracing... Yes" means prerendered graphics can be viewed on the SNES, then my local movie theatre has a film projector that can beat both the Amiga and SNES. :-/

CD-quality sound means 44.1Khz, stereo, 16 bits, uncompressed. The Amiga can do 28Khz, stereo, 8 bits, uncompressed. The SNES can do 32Khz, stereo, 16 bits, lossily compressed. I'm afraid neither matches CD-quality in numbers or capabilities. (Though I'd say the Amiga wins out in sheer CD-qualityness since a sample can be trivially stored in 512KB of RAM, whereas the SNES has 1/8th of that space to trivially store a sample (and the ensuing compression degrades quality))

More... the SNES does not have a 3D chip built by the Brits.... I'm sure we understand that's an add-on built into cartridges. The Amiga, being a general-purpose computer, of course has dozens of add-ons to enhance its capabilities.

The SNES does not have a 320x224 mode as mentioned. And higher resolutions do not cause slowdown or flicker. Poor programming and poor object placement by the software do.

The Genesis was mentioned... it doesn't have a master palette of 4096 colours, but only 512 colours. Its built-in RAM is 64K (well, the Z-80 has some too), and the "1MB RAM area" is irrelevant -- most of it is empty!

I hope that in the intervening time since the original post we've learned to ignore the misinformation and cherry-picking which results in erroneous and misleading data.

I love both the Amiga and SNES, but getting the numbers wrong for both of them just serves to insult both.

parallaxscroll

08-10-2015, 02:30 PM

A stock SNES didn't have polygonal graphics. A stock SNES was too slow to do polygons. (If ya disagree please show me a non-superfx game with polygons - thanks)

I agree.

A stock SNES also does not have as much pseudo-3D sprite manipulation hardware that Nintendo originally intended for it to have when they were developing the Super Famicom in Japan in the late 80s. It had to be added to the cartridge boards for games like Pilotwings and Mario Kart (the DSP-1) that made heavier use of scaling and rotation than what the final stock hardware could handle.

Check this out, the bolded part:

Subject: Re: FFIII (US) for Super Nintendo
Date: 1999/06/30
Newsgroups: rec.games.video.marketplace,alt.games.final-fantasy.rpg

Silhouette is the product of internal Nintendo research over several years. In my opinion, the history of Silhouette is nothing short of fascinating, so please read this document at least once before you throw it in the trash. Originally developed under the code-name "Mirage" and designed to serve as a Super Famicom development environment, Silhouette has been modified into a working Super Nintendo emulation environment which rivals the best efforts of any public development. Adequate explanation of Silhouette requires a step back to the original days of Super Famicom development.

The first batch of games for the Super Famicom were developed around 1988 and 1989. Popular Super Famicom titles, like F-Zero and Super Mario World, were the most difficult for several reasons--if nothing else, the Super Famicom hardware specifications changed in small ways at least twice during the development project, requiring changes to existing code. (Trivia tidbit: the original Super Famicom plans called for much more extensive onboard 3D hardware--PilotWings was developed assuming that this hardware would be present, and since this chip was scrapped from the Super Famicom at the last minute, Nintendo was forced to include this 3D chip on the PilotWings board in order to keep the game on schedule.)

The other reason for difficulty in development is much less known, and very surprising--almost all the programming for these titles was done on the Apple IIgs! This seems ridiculous until you realize that both the Super Famicom and the Apple IIgs are based on the 65816 processor, a cheap toy with inadequate processing power that was stuck in the Super Famicom to smooth over the early development process (since it is backwards compatible with the 6502, the NES' processor). However, it was soon realized by the development teams that a reliable 65c816 development platform could not be found on the usual Nintendo platforms (most Nintendo devs at that time had a generic PC, excluding the art and marketing department which was mostly Macintosh and a few segments of the development team). Deadlines approaching, the Apple IIgs was chosen as a quick if inelegant solution--several C and assembly compilers were available, and testing and debugging was easier since we were able to use a native 65816 for testing.

However, the IIgs proved woefully inadequate for large projects. Most machines didn't even have hard drives! Compile times for even meager projects were horrendous, and keeping all the work on floppies was getting out of hand. And obviously, the graphics support on IIgs' was minimal, so testing out small programs required switching between a Super Fami prototype on the left and a IIgs on the right. Programmers, in general, hated the thought of Super Famicom development. Many continued to write 6502 code using the old NES development environment,
choosing to ignore on the 16-bit advantages of the 65816 in order to complete the project without losing their sanity.

Nintendo soon pushed its efforts hard into developing a reasonable development platform for Super Famicom (and soon, the Super Nintendo). The project was codenamed Mirage, and several of the key designers of the Super Fami hardware were assigned to the project. Along with full 65c816 emulation, interrupt timing and memory management, the Mirage dev platform offered realtime debugging, code stepping, breakpoints, limited video support and almost instant compile times. Developers were happy, and Mirage proved to be an excellent way to write Super Famicom software in record times.
https://groups.google.com/forum/?hl=en#!original/rec.games.video.marketplace/KYuRpH1Tb-Q/yw64qPLeoisJ

Tanooki

08-10-2015, 08:26 PM

Quote Originally Posted by kevin_psx View Post
A stock SNES didn't have polygonal graphics. A stock SNES was too slow to do polygons. (If ya disagree please show me a non-superfx game with polygons - thanks)

I agree.

A stock SNES also does not have as much pseudo-3D sprite manipulation hardware that Nintendo originally intended for it to have when they were developing the Super Famicom in Japan in the late 80s. It had to be added to the cartridge boards for games like Pilotwings and Mario Kart (the DSP-1) that made heavier use of scaling and rotation than what the final stock hardware could handle.

AHEM. *tap tap*

The would think so as they are rendered as such. If not there is star trek starfleet academy which does a lot and with no special chips.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XrcKs9cEG_A

There's a 30 sec proof. It's not the best but it's a short clean clip of someone shooting at a constitution class (enterprise) star ship. You can have like I believe up to 3 ships on screen plus polygons for phaser beams and photon torpedos/romulan disruptors too. You have the Federation ships, and then you have like 2-3 from the klingon, romulan, and gorn too, and if I recall tholian ships as well. It moves around the speed that starfox flew at, not the unplayable speed of stunt race fx.

Yes the ships are in a view screen area surrounded by a lightly animated sprite/background based bridge, but even with the title and other places will render full screen, even in the combat menu where you select the ships to use or go against too as a combat simulator is involved.

The little triangles opening up the triforce on Link to the Past are polygons too, no chips involved but minor compared to this.