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View Full Version : RUMOUR: PS3 to not play USED GAMES?!? (Offically Denied)



njiska
11-08-2005, 07:37 PM
http://www.joystiq.com/entry/1234000420067137/

Even the most devote of Sony followers must admit that this kind of tech is evil.

I personally doubt that Sony would be stupid enough to prevant gamers from playing used games as that would be suicide, however the usage of such tech in Blu-Ray seems highly likely. This is scary stuff.

Jibbajaba
11-08-2005, 07:39 PM
Not gonna happen.


Chris

Overbite
11-08-2005, 07:41 PM
that would kill their system if they tried to implement it.

Xizer
11-08-2005, 07:43 PM
That sounds like something $ony would do, if it's not in the PS3 it'll be in the PS4. If $ony can even survive that long... the PS3 will be on its knees giving it to the Xbox 360 by the time this next gen is over.

roushimsx
11-08-2005, 07:43 PM
It's possible that the tech could be used like that, but that'd be the most suicidal thing they could possibly do as a hardware manufacturer.

Gotta love the knee-jerk reactions to new technology :)

Arkaign
11-08-2005, 07:44 PM
Yeah this is a pretty stupid rumor to apply to the games, it would be such certain suicide that it would never get approved. Corporations aquire patents by the truckload, it's absolutely retarded that they sometimes get spun like this. Sony makes a lot more than game systems, likewise with Microsoft.


That sounds like something $ony would do, if it's not in the PS3 it'll be in the PS4. If $ony can even survive that long... the PS3 will be on its knees giving it to the Xbox 360 by the time this next gen is over.

Are you ten years old? Forgive me, that might be insulting to ten-year-olds. It's pretty obvious that this coming gen (360/PS3/Rev) is going to play out pretty similarly to the current situation. Fanboys on all sides do nothing but embarass themselves by posting idiotic BS like yours. By the way, what makes you think you can trust *ANY* corporation? They'd happily be chopping babies into chowder with rusty machetes if they could make a dime out of it. Just play what you like and try to be a little less ignorant.

Lothars
11-08-2005, 07:58 PM
That sounds like something $ony would do, if it's not in the PS3 it'll be in the PS4. If $ony can even survive that long... the PS3 will be on its knees giving it to the Xbox 360 by the time this next gen is over.


lol you wish

It's not gonna happen

both the rumor that PS3 will not play used games, of course you will be able to play used games on it

but your really a moron if you think the PS3 will be on its knees, but it should be a good generation for all systems.

Xizer
11-08-2005, 07:59 PM
Are you ten years old? Forgive me, that might be insulting to ten-year-olds. It's pretty obvious that this coming gen (360/PS3/Rev) is going to play out pretty similarly to the current situation. Fanboys on all sides do nothing but embarass themselves by posting idiotic BS like yours. By the way, what makes you think you can trust *ANY* corporation? They'd happily be chopping babies into chowder with rusty machetes if they could make a dime out of it. Just play what you like and try to be a little less ignorant.

Well, I'd certainly trust Nintendo over Sony any day. I, for one, feel more comfortable with Nintendo's friendly customer policies, rather than Sony's attack-the-customer attitude.

The PS3 will not be doing well this generation. It's trying too hard to be the most powerful, and as such, will cost a lot of money, will launch late, and will be difficult for programmers to program for. It reminds me of the Saturn. The 360 on the other hand, has the XNA platform. The Rev will no doubt be a piece of cake to program for, and it will be cheaper. It will do pretty well - its new technology combined with sexy iPod white will get people talking. No doubt there will be quite a few blinded Sony fanboys who will eat up the PS3...but the fanboys who can't afford it or get tired of waiting will turn to the others, and realize they're better than Sony.

TheRedEye
11-08-2005, 08:00 PM
lol $ony how clever

Xizer
11-08-2005, 08:02 PM
lol $ony how clever

Well people do it to Microsoft, I figured I'd do it to a company that really deserves it. Microsoft may be greedy, but not near as much as Sony. Microsoft hasn't been shoving assloads of DRM down your throat, including DRM that could rape computers (rootkits).

Six Switch
11-08-2005, 08:02 PM
The Rev will no doubt be a piece of cake to program for, and it will be cheaper. It will do pretty well

i am not taking sides

but

that just sounds stupid

njiska
11-08-2005, 08:02 PM
Yeah this is a pretty stupid rumor to apply to the games, it would be such certain suicide that it would never get approved. Corporations aquire patents by the truckload, it's absolutely retarded that they sometimes get spun like this. Sony makes a lot more than game systems, likewise with Microsoft.

Both I and the article whole-heartedly agree with you. For games it's a stupid idea, but for Blu-Ray movies it fits with Sony's overall world view.

I posted the article because the concept of not being able to play used games seems interesting. In the past companies have been searching for ways to prevent the sale of used software so who knows maybe some time years from now we'll see this happen.



That sounds like something $ony would do, if it's not in the PS3 it'll be in the PS4. If $ony can even survive that long... the PS3 will be on its knees giving it to the Xbox 360 by the time this next gen is over.

Are you ten years old? Forgive me, that might be insulting to ten-year-olds. It's pretty obvious that this coming gen (360/PS3/Rev) is going to play out pretty similarly to the current situation. Fanboys on all sides do nothing but embarass themselves by posting idiotic BS like yours. By the way, what makes you think you can trust *ANY* corporation? They'd happily be chopping babies into chowder with rusty machetes if they could make a dime out of it. Just play what you like and try to be a little less ignorant.

Hal-ay-lu-yah. Amen brother.

Six Switch
11-08-2005, 08:03 PM
lol $ony how clever

Well people do it to Microsoft, I figured I'd do it to a company that really deserves it. Microsoft may be greedy, but not near as much as $ony. Microsoft hasn't been shoving assloads of DRM down your throat, including DRM that could rape computers (rootkits).

fixed

ps i love the last four minutes of this thread

Oobgarm
11-08-2005, 08:07 PM
Retailers who deal in used software would kill Sony if that happened. Take away Gamestop, Gamecrazy, Blockbuster and Best Buy(who's been dabbling in used game sales), and their market would surely be hurting.

CYRiX
11-08-2005, 08:09 PM
Whoever starts rumors needs to punch themself in the face. There rumors people, not facts.

mr_pollock
11-08-2005, 08:11 PM
Bad thread!

Sit!

Stevie Boy
11-08-2005, 08:13 PM
Dont quite understand, if you play a game once doesnt this mean its been used? so if you take it out of your console and put it back in (now a used game) it aint gonna work? Or what if your console breaks and you get a new one, will games not work then, coz they would have been first used on that one console???

Can some one please explain how this would be true in any sense?

Damaramu
11-08-2005, 08:14 PM
The Rev will no doubt be a piece of cake to program for, and it will be cheaper. It will do pretty well

i am not taking sides

but

that just sounds stupid

The controller alone is a turn off for me. I think Nintendough is trying a little too hard on this one. Or not. Who knows, I just wanted to use Nintendough. That's right.

Sothy
11-08-2005, 08:17 PM
http://img478.imageshack.us/img478/1715/eatcommunism4lh.jpg

Vectorman0
11-08-2005, 08:18 PM
I have to agree with jibba jabba. Major lawsuit opporunity, not to mention modders/hackers would have their way around it eventually.

Xizer
11-08-2005, 08:19 PM
Hal-ay-lu-yah. Amen brother.

Not that it would matter, considering that's coming from the infamous troll njiska :roll:

davepesc
11-08-2005, 08:21 PM
"Nintendough"

Haw Haw


This thread is teh suxorz

Oobgarm
11-08-2005, 08:25 PM
Hal-ay-lu-yah. Amen brother.

Not that it would matter, considering that's coming from the infamous troll njiska :roll:

Funny, I look around here and you're the only troll I see. You need to knock it off. Your biased, bile-filled drivel has no place on this forum. You can speak an opinion, sure, but going into every possible thread to do so is considered trolling, especially when you know what you're saying is going to rile up other forum members.

Nes
11-08-2005, 08:26 PM
Use of this technology for games or for movies has not a chance of being successful. I doubt they would sell a single blu-ray device that had this not to mention Blockbuster would go ballistic.

Mangar
11-08-2005, 08:27 PM
Actually - This isn't that far-fetched really.

If you are following the current debate and information regarding HD-DVD and Blu-Ray, one of the "features" planned for Sony's Blu-Ray disc(which the PS3 will use) is exactly what the article states. IE: A Disc and Machine will become "married" so to speak.

The chances of this feature being used on games is very slim, but it will be up to the manufacturer to enable it or not. The technology is there. For upcoming movies however - Well that's an entirely different story. Keep in mind that the main stated reason for 20th Century Fox supporting the Blu-Ray standard was the increased copy protection measures.

In any case: This is a very real possibility at some point in the future. There is already a huge debate about it amongst the various media companies(With Movie Studio's being for it, and Microsoft, Intel, and computer based companies wanting ways around it.)

Policenaut
11-08-2005, 08:28 PM
as Jibbajaba said, Not gonna happen.

njiska
11-08-2005, 08:29 PM
That's got to be a record you derailed my thread in 6 minutes.


Not that it would matter, considering that's coming from the infamous troll njiska

Infamous troll. Ha that's good for a laugh.


I have to agree with jibba jabba. Major lawsuit opporunity, not to mention modders/hackers would have their way around it eventually.

Good point. Although that didn't stop Sony from implementing it's new DRM and let's not forget that there's a strong possiblity that Blu-Ray will only work with TV's that have received Sony's blessing. That alone should tempt a lawsuit. Really who knows.

jdc
11-08-2005, 08:38 PM
It WOULD be good for a laugh. People who buy systems and then proceed to figure out the cheapest way to be a "gamer" amaze me. They buy the system but can't afford to support it.

There WAS a time when Microsoft was going to have a "no rental policy" on Xbox games to avert piracy, just as they do on their PC stuff.

joshnickerson
11-08-2005, 08:42 PM
I remember hearing a similar rumor before the PSP came out.

EricRyan34
11-08-2005, 08:46 PM
That would be suicide for SONY

Flack
11-08-2005, 08:48 PM
Let's try and stay on topic, kids.

That article has two parts -- the fact (the patent) and then their assumption of what it means which leads to the rumor. The fact (the patent) is much more interesting. After reading it, I believe (I may be wrong) that what the quoted portion means by "user" is companies attempting to duplicate disks, and I believe the part that reads "resale (so-called used software purchase" refers to people buying used disks in order to duplicate them.

Under "Field of the Invention" it reads "The present invention relates to a disk recording medium, a reproduction device, and a reproduction method, whereby a legitimate recording medium can be protected from the used recording medium market by the structure of the disk recording medium such as a CD-ROM and a main unit (reproduction device) in which this recording medium is installed." So I believe the patent is intended to prevent unauthorized duplication factories from duplicating ps3 discs, even if they buy a copy of a master. It also mentions "the resale of disk recording media already purchased by the end-user, i.e., the purchase of the used software, occurs as well as the manufacture of so-called counterfeit software in which the recorded data is illegally copied."

You cool guys using $'s for S's and bashing consoles should take the five minutes and read the patent.

What it's actually saying is that PS3 games will have "moving target security" (coined by me) which will make piracy very, very difficult. Mod chips as we know them will not work on this technology.

Under Background, "Summary of the Product" (section 2) you get your first glimpse of the next generation copy protection. Pulsa Data, bar codes, digital signals, serco error signals, rotational control programs and variable drive speeds, and more. These are all things that have to be done when you are burning the disks (ie: one game might have to be burned at a certain speed. Another one might have to be burned and then stopped while burning, or paused, etc, making duplication of a game on a standard DVD burner impossible.)

In other words, Sony doesn't plan on taking any $hit from hackers and pirates this round. Round One.

EDIT: "legitimate software protection can be performed in three layers, the presence or absence of specific code registration, the matching or non-matching of pulse data and verification data, and the matching or non-matching at rotational speeds in multiple stages. "

njiska
11-08-2005, 09:07 PM
Let's try and stay on topic, kids.

That article has two parts -- the fact (the patent) and then their assumption of what it means which leads to the rumor. The fact (the patent) is much more interesting. After reading it, I believe (I may be wrong) that what the quoted portion means by "user" is companies attempting to duplicate disks, and I believe the part that reads "resale (so-called used software purchase" refers to people buying used disks in order to duplicate them.

Under "Field of the Invention" it reads "The present invention relates to a disk recording medium, a reproduction device, and a reproduction method, whereby a legitimate recording medium can be protected from the used recording medium market by the structure of the disk recording medium such as a CD-ROM and a main unit (reproduction device) in which this recording medium is installed." So I believe the patent is intended to prevent unauthorized duplication factories from duplicating ps3 discs, even if they buy a copy of a master. It also mentions "the resale of disk recording media already purchased by the end-user, i.e., the purchase of the used software, occurs as well as the manufacture of so-called counterfeit software in which the recorded data is illegally copied."

You cool guys using $'s for S's and bashing consoles should take the five minutes and read the patent.

What it's actually saying is that PS3 games will have "moving target security" (coined by me) which will make piracy very, very difficult. Mod chips as we know them will not work on this technology.

Under Background, "Summary of the Product" (section 2) you get your first glimpse of the next generation copy protection. Pulsa Data, bar codes, digital signals, serco error signals, rotational control programs and variable drive speeds, and more. These are all things that have to be done when you are burning the disks (ie: one game might have to be burned at a certain speed. Another one might have to be burned and then stopped while burning, or paused, etc, making duplication of a game on a standard DVD burner impossible.)

In other words, Sony doesn't plan on taking any $hit from hackers and pirates this round. Round One.

EDIT: "legitimate software protection can be performed in three layers, the presence or absence of specific code registration, the matching or non-matching of pulse data and verification data, and the matching or non-matching at rotational speeds in multiple stages. "

Well said Flack, well said.

I admit that i didn't have time to read the patent in it's entirety as i was posting at work at the time by based on the abstract at the top of the patent i was assuming it would be using some unique code in the disc to bind that disc to the hardware that read it. Hence registering.

However i figured Sony would have just used the old phone home tactic to keep it bound to that player alone. Similar to how Valve binds HL2 keys to a parent Steam ACCT which would straight out prevent the use of used software/movies without Sony's blessing on any machine other then the primary.

chrisbid
11-08-2005, 09:19 PM
before the PS2 came out, they said it would be impossible to hack, the PS3 will eventually be hacked as well

and after the rootkit fiasco directly from sony, and the relative success of steam on HalfLife 2, this is business model all publishers really want, they want to own their content post purchase

Niku-Sama
11-08-2005, 09:22 PM
That would be suicide for SONY

agreed but on the plus side, if they do it in about a yearthe PS3 would be an awsome cheap computer

Damion
11-08-2005, 10:36 PM
Wait what? how is it even possiable for it to know whats used? it dosen't even make sense. you have to open the game to use it.

Wait, the more I'm thinking about this the more I think I understand.

this would be something for the PS3 games not PS2. so somehow the ps3 has a list of games that were run on that serial #'d ps3 so that it's registered to only that ps3.

so when you try to run that same game on a diffrent ps3 it looks at the list (which I assume is done through the internet connection) and notes that it was already registered to a diffrent machine there fore not running it.

sorry for the self explaintion lol But that would be nothing short of stupid if sony implements this. this most certianly would cross PS3 on my list of systems to buy.

Slimedog
11-08-2005, 10:55 PM
Wait what? how is it even possiable for it to know whats used? it dosen't even make sense. you have to open the game to use it.

Wait, the more I'm thinking about this the more I think I understand.

this would be something for the PS3 games not PS2. so somehow the ps3 has a list of games that were run on that serial #'d ps3 so that it's registered to only that ps3.

so when you try to run that same game on a diffrent ps3 it looks at the list (which I assume is done through the internet connection) and notes that it was already registered to a diffrent machine there fore not running it.

sorry for the self explaintion lol But that would be nothing short of stupid if sony implements this. this most certianly would cross PS3 on my list of systems to buy.

This would require an internet connection to work. I sort of assumed that when a new disk is placed in the system, the PS3 would burn is serial number into the disk. Whenever the game boots, it would check the serial number burned on the disk to the serial number of the system and it wouldn't boot if the two didn't match. Of course, thats just a first impression.

starchildskiss78
11-08-2005, 11:29 PM
Dont quite understand, if you play a game once doesnt this mean its been used? so if you take it out of your console and put it back in (now a used game) it aint gonna work? Or what if your console breaks and you get a new one, will games not work then, coz they would have been first used on that one console???

Can some one please explain how this would be true in any sense?

Well, from what I gather it I think it would be a lot like how PSO had to be played on your Dreamcast and your Dreamcast only because of the way you used the registration code.

As for thinking for one minute Sony would do something as crazy as that...I wouldn't believe that even for a second.

Chronodriftersx
11-09-2005, 12:22 AM
you get your first glimpse of the next generation copy protection. Pulsa Data, bar codes, digital signals, serco error signals, rotational control programs and variable drive speeds, and more.

WOW that explains why the system cost so much!

Damion
11-09-2005, 12:22 AM
Wait what? how is it even possiable for it to know whats used? it dosen't even make sense. you have to open the game to use it.

Wait, the more I'm thinking about this the more I think I understand.

this would be something for the PS3 games not PS2. so somehow the ps3 has a list of games that were run on that serial #'d ps3 so that it's registered to only that ps3.

so when you try to run that same game on a diffrent ps3 it looks at the list (which I assume is done through the internet connection) and notes that it was already registered to a diffrent machine there fore not running it.

sorry for the self explaintion lol But that would be nothing short of stupid if sony implements this. this most certianly would cross PS3 on my list of systems to buy.

This would require an internet connection to work. I sort of assumed that when a new disk is placed in the system, the PS3 would burn is serial number into the disk. Whenever the game boots, it would check the serial number burned on the disk to the serial number of the system and it wouldn't boot if the two didn't match. Of course, thats ju


1st a first impression.

Ah that makes much more sense.

Man if they pull that I won't buy it. I don't care what comes out for it. I guess I'll just have to miss out on the new armored cores and katamari's.

intvsama
11-09-2005, 12:39 AM
It's so funny that rumors like this even get started, let alone that people buy into them.

It works like this, the major game chains, EB, Gamestop, Game Crazy, Game Rush, etc... would stop carrying Sony products. Period.

A majority of their revenue stems from the sale of used software. Ever wonder why they push you to buy the used copy of Starsky and Hutch they're sitting on rather than the new one that's been there forever and will never sell? Because they only paid $1.20 for the used game and $16 for the new one. $15-$1.20 = $13.80 profit $20-$16=$4 profit Suddenly they're making no money on Sony products. What's the sense of carrying the new products at all for such a minimal profit margin whey they could put more XB360, Revolution, DS, etc... games in the same space with a HUGE markup.

Sony is cocky but not stupid. This technology is not going to be implemented, at least for the software side, of PS3. Blu-ray movies? Perhaps... probably not.

Arkaign
11-09-2005, 12:45 AM
Man, a lot of these threads are going to be downright comedy goldmines after the systems hit the streets. It's already that way with old Xbox360 threads, all the flames and fanboys etc ...

Oh well, at least this one has roots in an interesting patent filing.

Nez
11-09-2005, 12:46 AM
My guess is that "if" this ever happend GS GC BB would be pushing accessorys instead of used games. The mark up on these things are also high (although not as high as used games).


But still I don't see this happening. What if your PS3 broke all the games you have would be worthless. And given the track records of lauch Sony consoles there would be many an angery gamer out there.

Not going to happen when it comes to console gaming.

Slimedog
11-09-2005, 12:50 AM
So ignoring for a minute that its really unlikely that Sony would do this, who here would pass up the PS3 if it didn't play used games? I know I would. 95% of my games are used. Maybe then I could start to catch up on my backlog for everything else, but probably I'd just end up buying more 360 and Rev games.

Arkaign
11-09-2005, 12:56 AM
Yeah, if it were true, it would be such a drastic negative that they would be doomed. I'm probably not getting a PS3 to begin with, but some goofy kind of not letting you play used titles would seal the deal for me.

For me, the reasons for getting a PS3 would be : pretty open (like the PSP scene right now, loads of cool mods and hacks), and 1080p movies (not entirely up to Sony, but if the drives are in millions of systems, I'm thinking the movie companies will be quick to capitalize). Games are somewhat secondary, though if they can actually deliver the kind of content seen in the MGS4 trailer, they might get me.

njiska
11-09-2005, 12:56 AM
So ignoring for a minute that its really unlikely that Sony would do this, who here would pass up the PS3 if it didn't play used games? I know I would. 95% of my games are used. Maybe then I could start to catch up on my backlog for everything else, but probably I'd just end up buying more 360 and Rev games.

As much as it pains me to say i would. Of course only after it's a total failure and being sold off for nothing. I need my MGS 4 afterall. Plus it's because of situations nlike this that hackers evolved. Nothing is unhackable.

KingCobra
11-09-2005, 01:03 AM
So ignoring for a minute that its really unlikely that Sony would do this, who here would pass up the PS3 if it didn't play used games? I know I would. 95% of my games are used. Maybe then I could start to catch up on my backlog for everything else, but probably I'd just end up buying more 360 and Rev games.


That's why Sony or any other compony dosen't really care if your type buy's it or not :P since you buy 95% used, and it's not a cut down on you either. They just care about the gamers that drop the $$$.

I don't think this will happen soon, but you never know in this day and age with the amount of greed these's days. I'm sure if all media componies had it their way it'd be all downloadable only and we see the end of in-hand stuff.

Arkaign
11-09-2005, 01:04 AM
True that, hackers continually amaze, of course some things can be such a pain the orifice that people just don't bother. Everything from CSS to CPS2 to that Ipod music format has been hacked .. it's just a matter of practicality.

Anthony1
11-09-2005, 01:05 AM
I wouldn't put it past Sony for trying some ish like this. If anybody did something like this, it would be them.


The one thing that really pisses me off about this idea, is the thought process that people only have one video game system. I had two XBOX's for a very long time. I enjoyed having two XBOX systems. One in my Garage Theater, and one in my living room. I have two PS1 systems. I have two Sega Saturns. I have two SNES. Etc, etc. I like having two systems, cause it's just more convienent for me. In fact, I'm buying two XBOX 360 systems. (I'm not sure If I'll actually keep both, or end up selling one for a profit)



At some point down the line, I would likely have two PS3 systems as well. But if I cant take my Metal Gear Solid 7 and play it in both systems, then I would pissed as hell.


Same thing with Blu Ray movies. At some point, I would probably have multiple Blu Ray movie players in my house, and I would want to take a movie and be able to watch the same individual movie on any of my blu ray dvd players. So the idea of the disc marrying to a single system really pisses me off to no end.


This is a very, very, very bad idea, and if Sony really tries this, they are going to regret it. Big Time.

Arkaign
11-09-2005, 01:15 AM
Yeah, the very idea of Sony doing this is totally absurd. Microsoft would be just as likely (ie - .01% chance) of doing anything like this, they already have "Product Activation" intended to limit the installation of a program or operating system to a single or limited number of systems.

Realistically, neither company will touch anything like this with a 100,000km pole. This is just another piece of paper that's going to go join the other twenty-five jillion patents these guys have.

Diatribal Deity
11-09-2005, 01:15 AM
All I have to say is....

VARIABLE SPEED SPINNING = DISC READ ERROR

(not a fanboy just a realist)

Arkaign
11-09-2005, 01:19 AM
All I have to say is....

VARIABLE SPEED SPINNING = DISC READ ERROR

(not a fanboy just a realist)

Who knows, I mean BD-Roms have been out in Japan for quite some time now. Any word on their reliability so far?

Diatribal Deity
11-09-2005, 02:58 AM
All I have to say is....

VARIABLE SPEED SPINNING = DISC READ ERROR

(not a fanboy just a realist)

Who knows, I mean BD-Roms have been out in Japan for quite some time now. Any word on their reliability so far?

"This new media design minimizes or eliminates some issues related to the composition of DVD and HD media. With standard DVD media, the laser can be split into two beams when it passes through a substrate layer. If this split becomes excessive, read errors are induced. Second, because the recording layer is now closer to the objective lens in the optical assembly of the drive, disc tilt sensitivity is reduced. If the disc is not perfectly flat and perpendicular to the laser axis, the beam can become distorted, a condition known as disc tilt. This condition increases or decreases based on the thickness of the cover layer."

It is reduced but not eliminated and of course this will depend on the manufacturing quality. But it is nice to see this problem is being addressed for the next generation.

badinsults
11-09-2005, 03:22 AM
Although I doubt that Sony would do this, after hearing about the rootkit issue, who knows?


Probably a bunch of FUD.

AMG
11-09-2005, 03:43 AM
This will never happen. Sony wouldn't be this foolish.

But if by some far out chance it did happen, I wouldn't buy a PS3. Just think about it for a moment. Say your PS3 dies and you need to buy a new one, well all your games are now worthless too. So after all that money you've spent, you're stuck with an expensive doorstop and drink coasters.

Sony would dig it's own grave.

poloplayr
11-09-2005, 04:12 AM
ABout as likely as you will only be able to play your games once and then buy a new copy.

Spinal
11-09-2005, 04:59 AM
Is it just me... but why wouldn't it be possible to have "corporate" codes on rental disks... i.e. if Blockbuster wanted to buy 1000 units of a game to rent, they would have a code burned onto it that allows it to play on any console (like a Region 0 code on a DVD). DVD's already do this in one form or another... R0 coded dvd's and Rental vs. Retail dvd's; unite the two and voila...

Also, I notice some poeple are saying "sony wouldn't do this" or "sony would never do this!"... now I am not one to bash any company; every company has had its ups and downs, and has made its fair share of learning mistakes (and will have more mistakes to come). Nintendo's was to market specifically at children, sega's was the dreamcast (which was way beyond its time imo), and so on... This could be the next mistake in a long line, and I wouldn't put it down to sony not doing it for "ethical" reasons... They are the company that installed rootkits in unsespecting users computers after all... But then again, there is a general trend to "kill them bl**dy software pirates" after all....

So I guess we will need to wait and see. If they do implement it, imo there is going to be a boost in mod-chips that burn a "region 0" code on the disk; or that trick the console in thinking it connected to the server and got the code accepted. There will be an increase in sales in rental copies of disks too, and this should offset (at least slightly) the loss of sales of normal disks. Then again, there will be a gain in sales from the lack of piracy. Many countries (UK being one of them) have totally outlawed mod chips, so the law would help them too...

Also, Microsoft comes to mind. They did implement a (highly controversial I might add) system similar to this (assuming the PS3 uses internet verification of the codes) and they got away with it though the sheer <cough>quality<cough> of their product (don't flame me, I'm just making a point - wheather it was quality of forcing it on users is a differnet thing). So let me ask you a question, if sony does implement this, how many people would refuse to buy their console? I don't think many, maybe the ones that know a little more about consoles, but the typical gamer wouldn't. Also, what comes to mind is that a code/console could be allowed to play a rented/borrowed game for a limited period (or limited features)... Kinda like a demo, then after a limited amount of time, will work only on "another" console or back on its original...

Just my two pence though...
Michele

Jumpman Jr.
11-09-2005, 07:07 AM
Even if they implemented it, there is always a way of getting around it.

FantasiaWHT
11-09-2005, 07:20 AM
Haven't read everything, but in what I did read, nobody caught one implication...

Retail stores would no longer be able to reseal used games and sell them as new LOL

Vroomfunkel
11-09-2005, 07:42 AM
Preventing people from playing used discs (whether games or films) on their machine will not happen, irrespective of whether or not Sony have the technology to try it.

If you remove the re-sale market for games then you remove a whole consumer base for your products. Sure, Sony don't make any money from resales - but these people still have to buy the console, and the likelihood is that they will buy some new titles as well. If people discover that they will never be able to buy a used game, they will just plump for a system where they can - which is something Sony most certainly do not want.

The same goes for DVDs - given the current jostling for position between the rival new DVD formats, Sony are certainly not going to do anything that will lose them favour with consumers in this respect either. Preventing people from buying used DVDs, or from borrowing DVDs from freinds is not going to gain them any favours whatsoever ...

Finally, as has been said before .... it will be a matter of weeks (well, possibly months - but I am guessing weeks) before anything like that got hacked straight through anyway.

Vroomfunkel

Griking
11-09-2005, 08:31 AM
The one thing that really pisses me off about this idea, is the thought process that people only have one video game system. I had two XBOX's for a very long time. I enjoyed having two XBOX systems. One in my Garage Theater, and one in my living room. I have two PS1 systems. I have two Sega Saturns. I have two SNES. Etc, etc. I like having two systems, cause it's just more convienent for me. In fact, I'm buying two XBOX 360 systems. (I'm not sure If I'll actually keep both, or end up selling one for a profit)

I also don't like the thought of this since 80% of the games that I buy are used. But this kind of "program sharing" is already prohibited in the PC software industry. Try installing Microsoft Office 2003 or Turbo Tax on multiple PCs, even if they're both yours and see what happens. Is it really that unlogical that the videogame industry would want to follow the same path? After all, how much money must the industry be loosing because of used games sales?

kevin_psx
11-09-2005, 08:47 AM
All I have to say is.... VARIABLE SPEED SPINNING = DISC READ ERROR (not a fanboy just a realist)

Aren't CDs and DVDs variable speed? They work just great.

jajaja
11-09-2005, 08:56 AM
I wouldnt take this too serious. Joystiq.com also said that the Zelda 3 proto was real after that homemade screenshot.
If this system should work information had to be burned into the disc or the PS3 had to be connected to a server who checked all codes.

njiska
11-09-2005, 10:16 AM
I wouldnt take this too serious. Joystiq.com also said that the Zelda 3 proto was real after that homemade screenshot.
If this system should work information had to be burned into the disc or the PS3 had to be connected to a server who checked all codes.

Joystiq's credibility is irrelevant. They're simply a means to an end if you will. They reported the story but the real story is in the patent itself.

jajaja
11-09-2005, 10:28 AM
I wouldnt take this too serious. Joystiq.com also said that the Zelda 3 proto was real after that homemade screenshot.
If this system should work information had to be burned into the disc or the PS3 had to be connected to a server who checked all codes.

Joystiq's credibility is irrelevant. They're simply a means to an end if you will. They reported the story but the real story is in the patent itself.

I never mentioned joystiqs credibility. I said that you shouldnt take the rumor too serious, no matter who wrote it. I just wrote that they posted the Zelda 3 story telling it was real with just 1 screenshot as proof. Also that it was sold for $3000. I think they could have done more research instead of swalloving what the "seller" of Zelda 3 wrote in his blog. Everyone can do that.

njiska
11-09-2005, 10:35 AM
I wouldnt take this too serious. Joystiq.com also said that the Zelda 3 proto was real after that homemade screenshot.
If this system should work information had to be burned into the disc or the PS3 had to be connected to a server who checked all codes.

Joystiq's credibility is irrelevant. They're simply a means to an end if you will. They reported the story but the real story is in the patent itself.

Not completely irrelevant. Im just saying that you shouldnt belive anything thats written, even if joystiq writes it.

I know, that's why i'm saying ignore Joystiq, they don't matter and follow the bloody link straight to the offical patent document held by the US Patent Database.

It's written by Sony so beleive me thats what you should be reading.

If you can't find the link in the article then here's a direct one.

http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO2&Sect2=HITOFF&u=/netahtml/search-adv.htm&r=1&p=1&f=G&l=50&d=ptxt&S1=%28Kutaragi.INZZ.+AND+Sony.ASNM.%29&OS=in/Kutaragi+AND+an/Sony&RS=%28IN/Kutaragi+AND+AN/Sony

Slimedog
11-09-2005, 10:40 AM
The one thing that really pisses me off about this idea, is the thought process that people only have one video game system. I had two XBOX's for a very long time. I enjoyed having two XBOX systems. One in my Garage Theater, and one in my living room. I have two PS1 systems. I have two Sega Saturns. I have two SNES. Etc, etc. I like having two systems, cause it's just more convienent for me. In fact, I'm buying two XBOX 360 systems. (I'm not sure If I'll actually keep both, or end up selling one for a profit)

I also don't like the thought of this since 80% of the games that I buy are used. But this kind of "program sharing" is already prohibited in the PC software industry. Try installing Microsoft Office 2003 or Turbo Tax on multiple PCs, even if they're both yours and see what happens. Is it really that unlogical that the videogame industry would want to follow the same path? After all, how much money must the industry be loosing because of used games sales?

Crap like this is exactly why I don't buy or play PC games anymore. I haven't touched a PC game since Starcraft, and I'll tell you why.

I hate the wacky liscensing grief that they put you through to play anything. It doesn't matter if its connecting to Valve to authenticate your copy or if you are entering in word 6 from page 13 of the manual, I dropped the money to play a game and thats what I want to do. Not sit around proving that I actually dropped the money.

I hate the constant upgrade paths. Every 3 months, your state of the art hardware needs to be replaced and you need to have the latest hardware to keep a competitive edge. Consoles are a level playing field and I like that a lot.

I hate the practice of releasing buggy software and then distributing fixes for it. Get it working right before you ship the damn thing, for crying out loud! The fact that consumers have grown complacent enough to accept this kind of behavior is even more infuriating.

I've heard american software firms commenting something along the lines of the console market needs to start behaving more like the PC market and I strongly disagree.

rpepper9
11-09-2005, 10:50 AM
The last paragraph says it all:

Does Sony plan to employ this technology in the PlayStation 3? Not likely. If so, PS3 owners would not be able to rent (used) games or borrow their friends’ games—or even purchase used games! Sure, the technology could be used for Blu-Ray movies, but for games? It just won’t go down like that… right?

And even if they did, how long would it take all the hacksors to get around that little piece of tech? Probably not long. Things like this get blown out of proportion so quickly. Most of the time they don't even happen, and the rest of the time the Hack community comes up with a way around it very quickly. I say nothing to worry about!

XianXi
11-09-2005, 10:56 AM
that sounds like something that a microsoft person would write to push people away from the PS3 to boost sales for the 360. IMO

njiska
11-09-2005, 11:12 AM
that sounds like something that a microsoft person would write to push people away from the PS3 to boost sales for the 360. IMO

Yeah but it's not. It maybe being reported that way, but the patent is all Sony.

chrisbid
11-09-2005, 01:23 PM
does anyone else remember when the RIAA (with Garth Brooks as their mouthpiece) tried to force record stores to stop selling used CDs? The effort fell a little flat, even after ol Garth wouldnt ship his CDs to stores that continued to sell used music.

but the ultimate goal for copyright holders in this day and age of unlimited greed is to squeeze every last penny out of its IPs. If the technology is there, and every publisher is on board, then there is nothing stopping sony or anyone else from pulling this BS.

as short sided as it may be, companies see the sale of used media as lost sales. just as they see every pirate copy ever burned as a lost sale. reality tells us neither case is true,

do companies like sony really give a dam about the EBs and other stores, when Wal Mart is a far bigger customer?

johno590
11-09-2005, 01:31 PM
I read an article on this just a little while ago and then saw this thread. I haven't read through the thread but just wanted to say that there would have to be changes to the system because it says that it would only work on the first system the game is played on. That in my opinion would be terrible, and I think it would discourage people to buy a ps3. For me it would anyways.

That means you wouldn't be able to rent video games, borrow games from a friend, play at a friends house with your game, and of course buy used games which is such a nice thing.

googlefest1
11-09-2005, 02:02 PM
this would probably work if sony convinced all of it's competitors to jump on the raft with them - then the consumer would be forced to except it or boycott it.

I don't think the majority of people would boycott new games.

The bright side of this system could be that games would cost the consumer less.

i would think that movies will be the test bed

the first blu-ray systems could be like laserdisk was back in the day

Slimedog
11-09-2005, 02:49 PM
The bright side of this system could be that games would cost the consumer less.


Why would they cost less? Even if the sales increased because there was no secondary market to compete with, why would the software industry lower prices for consumers? I really doubt that altruism would cause companies to pass up extra profits to make us happy, especially if there were no cheaper alternative for consumers.

slip81
11-09-2005, 03:09 PM
Part of me kinda wants Sony to impliment this feature just because, to me anyway, it would be incredible funny to watch a company loose a ton of money on such an obviously stupid move. But realistically, no one is that stupid, not even big business, I'm sure Sony realizes just how much used sales means. Even though they don't see profit from it directly, used games means cheaper games, and cheaper games means someone will more likely spend a little extra on a console.

Anyway, it won't happen, at least not in normal single player games, though I could see it happing with something like a MMORPG, because there is little to no resale value to that software anyway.

If it happens with blu-ray movies, it'll be an annoyance, but no big system failing move, since most people buy their movies new anyway.

snes_collector
11-09-2005, 03:43 PM
*walks in topic*

Ever heard the phase "don't believe everything you here(or read)?

Just my two cents


*walks out of topic*

Ed Oscuro
11-09-2005, 03:56 PM
Shame on Joystiq for letting this look mysterious.

There's always a use for read-once discs. For example, distributing public beta discs or music/movie samplers on such media would be legitimate applications, though I don't see the benefit of having it used on game demo discs.

This won't be used on traditional, commercially released titles.

That said, the music and movie industries have long flirted with the thought of read-once discs, but any successful uses (far as I know) have been to allow folks such as reviewers or fans the ability to get a song early, but not be able to redistribute the content easily.

Ze_ro
11-09-2005, 06:18 PM
I wouldn't put it past Sony to try something like this. Keep in mind that they (and Microsoft and Nintendo) don't want you to buy used games because they don't get any profit off of it. Various people in the industry have already said they don't like places selling used games because of this (link (http://www.computerandvideogames.com/news/news_story.php?id=125925)). If Sony and Microsoft go with their usual plans of undercutting the cost of the system in the hopes of making up for it on game sales, then all of you people who primarily buy used games are likely considered "bad customers" in their opinion, since they might actually be LOSING money on you. If Sony could change the industry so that every game sold was brand new, and piracy didn't exist, don't you think they'd do it? Customer outrage is probably the only thing stopping them.

No one has mentioned it yet, but if this were to happen, it would make the PS3 impossible to collect for... can you imagine 10 years from now trying to look for sealed copies only? A smart person could clean up by stockpiling titles for future sale.

--Zero

Whiskers the Wonder Cat
11-09-2005, 06:21 PM
I doubt it will happen. No one can be that insanely stupid.

Arkaign
11-09-2005, 06:25 PM
Well, I don't think the game companies are ignorant of the fact that used games are actually good for them.

(1)- The person selling the used game is most likely going to turn around and use that money on a new game/accessory

(2)- The person who buys the used title is much more likely to go pick up the latest in the series if they get hooked on it.

(3)- Helps medium/small outlets stay in business, which gives them greater market penetration. Also, they make better margins selling 50,000 copies to retailer X than they do selling 5,000,000 through Wal-mart, who bleeds their vendors dry.

Stevie Boy
11-09-2005, 06:37 PM
The one thing that really pisses me off about this idea, is the thought process that people only have one video game system. I had two XBOX's for a very long time. I enjoyed having two XBOX systems. One in my Garage Theater, and one in my living room. I have two PS1 systems. I have two Sega Saturns. I have two SNES. Etc, etc. I like having two systems, cause it's just more convienent for me. In fact, I'm buying two XBOX 360 systems. (I'm not sure If I'll actually keep both, or end up selling one for a profit)

I also don't like the thought of this since 80% of the games that I buy are used. But this kind of "program sharing" is already prohibited in the PC software industry. Try installing Microsoft Office 2003 or Turbo Tax on multiple PCs, even if they're both yours and see what happens. Is it really that unlogical that the videogame industry would want to follow the same path? After all, how much money must the industry be loosing because of used games sales?


We have, at work, office installed on numerous macs but you can only use it on 2 at a time, thats how the license works. So it makes sense to be able to use it on as many consoles as you want, but justone at a time. Like it works now.

Ed Oscuro
11-09-2005, 06:51 PM
Huh, maybe Joystiq isn't scaremongering after all. Here's some text straight from one of the patents filed with the US PTO (italics mine):


1. Field of the Invention

The present invention relates to a disk recording medium, a reproduction device, and a reproduction method, whereby a legitimate recording medium can be protected from the used recording medium market by the structure of the disk recording medium such as a CD-ROM and a main unit (reproduction device) in which this recording medium is installed.

2. Background of the Invention

In recent years, beginning with the popularity of videogame machines, numerous entertainment devices have circulated on a market, and accordingly, the demand for disk recording media such as video software has increased. In conjunction with this phenomenon, not only end-users purchase and use disk recording media by legitimate channels, but also the resale of disk recording media already purchased by the end-user, i.e., the purchase of the used software, occurs as well as the manufacture of so-called counterfeit software in which the recorded data is illegally copied.

[Two paragraphs snipped.]

SUMMARY OF THE INVENTION

The present invention has been produced in light of the aforesaid problems. It is an object of the present invention to provide a disk recording medium for the protection of legitimate recorded media in which security is maintained so that the sale of used software and counterfeit software can be prevented. It is a further object of this invention to provide a medium reproduction device and reproduction method using that disk recording.

njiska
11-09-2005, 07:15 PM
Huh, maybe Joystiq isn't scaremongering after all. Here's some text straight from one of the patents filed with the US PTO (italics mine):


I'd really like everyone here to stop accusing Joystiq of fear mongering. A side from the patent itself being scary, as pointed out by Ed Oscuro, this story has been reported the same way on numerous sites including:

Arstechnica
Kotaku
Gamespot
PS3 Scene

and many many others.

Ed Oscuro
11-09-2005, 07:30 PM
As usual, I was one of the ones who thought it was "scare mongering" at first (not intentional, of course...). Now that I looked at it, this really is some scary stuff.

As things go, though, this won't be the end of the world. There still are legitimate uses, and the strong wording of the patent doesn't mean this won't be challenged in the courts.

Ugh, I really don't like the thought of my games being "marked" by Sony. Sorta like...they pissed on your games. Dogs and fire hydrants, something like that. LOL

FantasiaWHT
11-10-2005, 07:18 AM
this would probably work if sony convinced all of it's competitors to jump on the raft with them - then the consumer would be forced to except it or boycott it.

Yeah except that would violate all sorts of anti-trust laws hehe



The bright side of this system could be that games would cost the consumer less.

More likely the games would cost MORE because consumers wouldn't have a cheaper alternative so manufacturer's could raise their MSRPs.

chrisbid
11-10-2005, 07:59 AM
Yeah except that would violate all sorts of anti-trust laws hehe




the movie industry bands together for anti-piracy standards all the time




we all know this is a raw deal, but if im not mistaken, isnt selling used games already illegal in japan?

Captain Wrong
11-10-2005, 08:40 AM
*walks in topic*

Ever heard the phase "don't believe everything you here(or read)?

Just my two cents


*walks out of topic*

BUt it's $onY and they are teh eVil$$$$$$$.

And I love all the "I wouldnt' put this past Sony" like they're the only company that would do this if it was feasable. Come on. If anyone could figure out how to make this work (and not have the retailers rebel) they'd all do it.

Anyway, I read the article and as has been mentioned earlier, I'm not sure how this would work without an internet connection. How else is it going to check if the game is regestered? Aside from that, I just don't see it happening...yet.

Really seems to me like people are reading about a patient and then jumping to conclusions on what's going to happen next. Gee...that never happens in the videogame world, does it? LOL

drummy
11-10-2005, 04:00 PM
This would definitely hurt the PS3 in more ways than one.

snes_collector
11-10-2005, 04:20 PM
*walks in topic*

Ever heard the phase "don't believe everything you here(or read)?

Just my two cents


*walks out of topic*

BUt it's $onY and they are teh eVil$$$$$$$.

And I love all the "I wouldnt' put this past Sony" like they're the only company that would do this if it was feasable. Come on. If anyone could figure out how to make this work (and not have the retailers rebel) they'd all do it.

Anyway, I read the article and as has been mentioned earlier, I'm not sure how this would work without an internet connection. How else is it going to check if the game is regestered? Aside from that, I just don't see it happening...yet.

Really seems to me like people are reading about a patient and then jumping to conclusions on what's going to happen next. Gee...that never happens in the videogame world, does it? LOL

So do you agree what I said or are you saying my post was fanboyish? Because it wasn't.

njiska
11-10-2005, 04:22 PM
Gamespot has decided to comment on the rumour. It's a bit more of the same but it's a good read.

http://www.gamespot.com/news/show_blog_entry.php?topic_id=23921409

Arkaign
11-10-2005, 05:47 PM
I can't see this happening with things the way they are. It would take either total domination by one company, or agreement between the major players, for this to happen.

If Microsoft did this alone, the 360 would be a total failure.

If Sony did this alone, the PS3 would be a total failure.

If Nintendo did this alone, the Dev would be a total failure.

It's incredibly obvious. Used/Rented games are way to popular for this to be a viable option. Nobody is dumb enough to try this alone.

Microsoft has already done this with some of its products, but can do so because of it's utter and complete domination of the computer software OS market. If Linux or Mac had been viable alternatives for running the apps that people want to run, then it would have never flown.

Bottom line, this is Sony getting ready for a potential time when this will be the status quo for games. They are almost certainly not stupid enough to do this alone.

cyberfluxor
11-10-2005, 06:05 PM
I doubt it because it would hurt retail stores that resell those games, possibly making it not worth it for them to even carry their titles. In addition, why do this when they are making it backwards compatible with the PS1 and PS2. In addition, what about those LAN parties where they share a disc for 4 players. We could go on many different angles as to why it could hurt their sales. :)

Ed Oscuro
11-10-2005, 06:30 PM
Anyway, I read the article and as has been mentioned earlier, I'm not sure how this would work without an internet connection. How else is it going to check if the game is regestered? Aside from that, I just don't see it happening...yet.
Well, I've posted excerpts from the patent, but if you want an understanding of how it works, you should read through it. It's basically a system whereby the console itself "marks" your disc. A code is read into the console's internal storage at some point, as well, and that is later used to check up against the disc. There's definitely some alteration to the disc done by the console as part of the process.

I don't know how technical this process was, but I have a feeling it was more a matter of thinking up the idea. Of course, this is a type of technology that the industry has wanted (and the music and movie industries as well) for a long time now; it simply wouldn't have worked on an open system like the PC (unless Sony wants to start selling plug-in Blu-Ray drives as well).

Ed Oscuro
11-10-2005, 06:34 PM
I doubt it because it would hurt retail stores that resell those games, possibly making it not worth it for them to even carry their titles.
Perhaps Sony is planning on selling machines that can be used to "fix" the discs - that's what one commentator envisoned, though obviously that doesn't jive with what's being said. But yeah, this is throwing down the gauntlet to the retail industry. It'll be interesting to see if the retail outlets decide to say anything about it.

Still, I think it's pretty much a given that the PS3 will have this capability. Beta tests, again, would be a good way to utilize this: this is going back to what Captain Wrong was wondering about - you wouldn't need to go online to verify your game.

Mangar
11-10-2005, 06:54 PM
Like i said on the very first page of this thread

One of the "features" of Blu-Ray DVD is the ability to do just that. IE: The marriage of a machine and a disc. This is one of the reasons 20th Century Fox chose the standard, and why most movie studios are on board. The only real "major" holdouts currently are Microsoft, Intel, and other Computer based companies who are worried about what this will do to home networks and Home Theatre PC. As things stand, you won't even be able to have a Blue-Ray DVD movie playing on one computer, and stream it over the network to another screen. (Much less copy ANY content to a Hard Disk. Which is why the computer companies haven't signed up yet) Negotiations are currently taking place as they all attempt to iron the final details out, but as things stand - Blue Ray will have the single most draconian copy protection measures ever yet seen.

Will this be enabled for PS3 games? Again: I doubt it, but it's not really that far fetched. Sony intends the PS3 to be there way of penetrating the marketplace with Blue-Ray disc players. Which means that movies will be able to take full effect of any/all of the copy protection measures available. It also gives the individual game manufacturers the option of utilizing whatever copy protection functions they like. Maybe a year or two into the PS3's existance, it wouldn't be a crazy thought to see a company putting out a super hot title - To really try and milk consumers by marrying the disc to the player. If the protection is built-in, then there really isn't much Sony could do to stop em. (Other then not licensing the title)

Currently however: Nothing is set in stone. All options are being debated and talked over. But about the only voice of reason in the debate is Microsoft, which pretty much says it all :) Just follow the HD-DVD and Blue-Ray arguments and press releases if you really wanna get an idea of exactly where this issue is heading. This sort of thing is really nothing new if you've been following the industry awhile. DVD's originally had to compete with the DiVX format of discs which some draconian copy protection measures as well. (Except DVD ended up winning.) IE: A movie would play 5 times, then become unwatchable.

njiska
11-10-2005, 07:48 PM
Like i said on the very first page of this thread

One of the "features" of Blu-Ray DVD is the ability to do just that. IE: The marriage of a machine and a disc. This is one of the reasons 20th Century Fox chose the standard, and why most movie studios are on board. The only real "major" holdouts currently are Microsoft, Intel, and other Computer based companies who are worried about what this will do to home networks and Home Theatre PC. As things stand, you won't even be able to have a Blue-Ray DVD movie playing on one computer, and stream it over the network to another screen. (Much less copy ANY content to a Hard Disk. Which is why the computer companies haven't signed up yet) Negotiations are currently taking place as they all attempt to iron the final details out, but as things stand - Blue Ray will have the single most draconian copy protection measures ever yet seen.

Will this be enabled for PS3 games? Again: I doubt it, but it's not really that far fetched. Sony intends the PS3 to be there way of penetrating the marketplace with Blue-Ray disc players. Which means that movies will be able to take full effect of any/all of the copy protection measures available. It also gives the individual game manufacturers the option of utilizing whatever copy protection functions they like. Maybe a year or two into the PS3's existance, it wouldn't be a crazy thought to see a company putting out a super hot title - To really try and milk consumers by marrying the disc to the player. If the protection is built-in, then there really isn't much Sony could do to stop em. (Other then not licensing the title)

Currently however: Nothing is set in stone. All options are being debated and talked over. But about the only voice of reason in the debate is Microsoft, which pretty much says it all :) Just follow the HD-DVD and Blue-Ray arguments and press releases if you really wanna get an idea of exactly where this issue is heading. This sort of thing is really nothing new if you've been following the industry awhile. DVD's originally had to compete with the DiVX format of discs which some draconian copy protection measures as well. (Except DVD ended up winning.) IE: A movie would play 5 times, then become unwatchable.

That reminds me what ever happend to those disc's that were suppose to just break down in so many hours after being exposed to air. Another bad idea that went nowhere.

evildead2099
11-10-2005, 10:09 PM
How can a system not play 'used' games? Does that mean that if I purchase Metal Gear Solid 4 and play it once, a P$3 will no longer play it because it has been "used"?

How the hell are people supposed to rent games as a means to testing them out if the P$3 won't support used games?

evildead2099
11-10-2005, 10:15 PM
I wouldn't put it past Sony to try something like this. Keep in mind that they (and Microsoft and Nintendo) don't want you to buy used games because they don't get any profit off of it. Various people in the industry have already said they don't like places selling used games because of this

That's very true. Before the RIAA targeted P2P file-sharing, it unsuccessfully tried to put used CD outlets out of business in the 1980s.

Am I the only one who finds it strange that stores which sell new videogames (i.e. EB, Gamestop) also openly sell used videogames? Those very stores are doing the industry a disservice. Same goes for automobile dealerships which sell used cars, though.

Howie6925
11-10-2005, 10:33 PM
Here is what I am not understanding about what people are saying, how would one PS3 know or the game for that matter know it is on another system. Am I going to put the the game in my friends PS3 and it tell me sorry it is installed on another system. Is there a way to rip information off a cd completely and rendering it useless on another system. I was all gung ho for the new PS3, but I dont know now. Ill have to put a wait and see attitude on the whole thing.

Arkaign
11-11-2005, 02:44 AM
I wouldn't put it past Sony to try something like this. Keep in mind that they (and Microsoft and Nintendo) don't want you to buy used games because they don't get any profit off of it. Various people in the industry have already said they don't like places selling used games because of this

That's very true. Before the RIAA targeted P2P file-sharing, it unsuccessfully tried to put used CD outlets out of business in the 1980s.

Am I the only one who finds it strange that stores which sell new videogames (i.e. EB, Gamestop) also openly sell used videogames? Those very stores are doing the industry a disservice. Same goes for automobile dealerships which sell used cars, though.

That's not entirely true, think of what people buy after they sell their used games. MORE GAMES lol. Hell, a lot of the promotions are like "trade in x number of used titles, and get $ off of this new game". Not to mention that older games in series (these days almost everything is a sequel to a sequel to a sequel) are the #1 best advertising for the NEW version. I mean, dude gets game x part 2 for $18 used, then wants the brand new game x part 3, and then scrapes together the $45 to buy it.

All in all, I think its a wash, if you factor in potential loss of new game sales. Remember, regardless of what the game companies do, the consumers will still only have so much money that they can spend. The only proven rule is that a good title that is well reviewed and promoted will sell very well.

Captain Wrong
11-11-2005, 08:19 AM
Well, I've posted excerpts from the patent, but if you want an understanding of how it works, you should read through it. It's basically a system whereby the console itself "marks" your disc. A code is read into the console's internal storage at some point, as well, and that is later used to check up against the disc. There's definitely some alteration to the disc done by the console as part of the process.

I don't know how technical this process was, but I have a feeling it was more a matter of thinking up the idea. Of course, this is a type of technology that the industry has wanted (and the music and movie industries as well) for a long time now; it simply wouldn't have worked on an open system like the PC (unless Sony wants to start selling plug-in Blu-Ray drives as well).

Gotcha. Maybe I missed that part. I guess marking the disc would be the only way that could work.




So do you agree what I said or are you saying my post was fanboyish? Because it wasn't.

No sir. I was agreeing with you. I too think when it comes to videogame stuff too many people take each rumor as the absolute gospel. Sorry for the confusion. :)

DeputyMoniker
11-12-2005, 12:40 AM
That sounds like something $ony would do, if it's not in the PS3 it'll be in the PS4. If $ony can even survive that long... the PS3 will be on its knees giving it to the Xbox 360 by the time this next gen is over.

Go away.
Is there any way to filter this kids account so he can't reply to topics containing the following words:
Sony, Playstation, PS2, PS3, PSP, PS and anything else Sony or Playstation related.

Spinal
11-12-2005, 03:30 AM
That sounds like something $ony would do, if it's not in the PS3 it'll be in the PS4. If $ony can even survive that long... the PS3 will be on its knees giving it to the Xbox 360 by the time this next gen is over.

Go away.
Is there any way to filter this kids account so he can't reply to topics containing the following words:
Sony, Playstation, PS2, PS3, PSP, PS and anything else Sony or Playstation related.

LMAO! I say filtering should affect anything videogame related :D Oh, and start enforcing a global policy whereby children aren't allowed on the internet without a responsable adult sitting next to them :P

Would solve alot of problems imo...

Spinal

Ze_ro
11-12-2005, 06:09 PM
I can't see this happening with things the way they are. It would take either total domination by one company, or agreement between the major players, for this to happen.
Well, the good news then, is that now that Sony has a patent on this, it would mean that Nintendo and Microsoft would either have to pay royalties in order to use the technology, or find another way to cripple their games... in the long run, filing this patent might actually prevent other companies from doing this.


Anyway, I read the article and as has been mentioned earlier, I'm not sure how this would work without an internet connection. How else is it going to check if the game is regestered?
Actually, I don't see how they can possibly rely on an internet connection to do any of the stuff they want it to do with Blu-Ray... I can easily imagine hackers just snooping on the IP traffic between the machine and the remote host, and then just hooking a computer in to spoof a reply that automatically verifies all discs as being legit. Naturally there will be encryption to deal with in there somewhere, but it's only a matter of time. Maybe there's extra technology involved here that I'm not aware of, but any data that leaves/enters the system can never be considered secure or trustworthy as far as the system is concerned.


How can a system not play 'used' games? Does that mean that if I purchase Metal Gear Solid 4 and play it once, a P$3 will no longer play it because it has been "used"?
No. The idea is that the game and your system will be "married" so that once you play the game on that system, it will refuse to run on any other systems.


think of what people buy after they sell their used games. MORE GAMES
For the most part, yeah... but you can't bank on that. I know plenty of people who have hocked their games to pay their rent. This is one of those hazy situations that the marketing-types and pointy-haired bosses don't like because they don't have enough control over it.

It's safe to say that even if Sony does try to do this, consumer and retail outrage will force them to stop. That seems to be the case with their recent attempts at DRM on audio CD's.

--Zero

CartCollector
11-12-2005, 06:34 PM
Oh, and start enforcing a global policy whereby children aren't allowed on the internet without a responsable adult sitting next to them

Would solve alot of problems imo...

Well, you do have to be at least 13 to sign up to message boards, mmorpgs, etc. in the U.S. I think it's law. Problem is, no one checks.

Griking
11-12-2005, 06:41 PM
Anyway, I read the article and as has been mentioned earlier, I'm not sure how this would work without an internet connection. How else is it going to check if the game is regestered?

Actually, I don't see how they can possibly rely on an internet connection to do any of the stuff they want it to do with Blu-Ray... I can easily imagine hackers just snooping on the IP traffic between the machine and the remote host, and then just hooking a computer in to spoof a reply that automatically verifies all discs as being legit. Naturally there will be encryption to deal with in there somewhere, but it's only a matter of time. Maybe there's extra technology involved here that I'm not aware of, but any data that leaves/enters the system can never be considered secure or trustworthy as far as the system is concerned.


Perhaps the PS3 has the ability to burn to CDs and DVDs. Burning a serial number onto each disc would do the job.

njiska
11-12-2005, 07:04 PM
Anyway, I read the article and as has been mentioned earlier, I'm not sure how this would work without an internet connection. How else is it going to check if the game is regestered?

Actually, I don't see how they can possibly rely on an internet connection to do any of the stuff they want it to do with Blu-Ray... I can easily imagine hackers just snooping on the IP traffic between the machine and the remote host, and then just hooking a computer in to spoof a reply that automatically verifies all discs as being legit. Naturally there will be encryption to deal with in there somewhere, but it's only a matter of time. Maybe there's extra technology involved here that I'm not aware of, but any data that leaves/enters the system can never be considered secure or trustworthy as far as the system is concerned.


Perhaps the PS3 has the ability to burn to CDs and DVDs. Burning a serial number onto each disc would do the job.

That's assuming that you can make a writable part on a pressed disc. It'd be an odd design but i'm sure it's far from impossible.

Arkaign
11-12-2005, 07:16 PM
On a side note, if the drive in the PS3 is a burner, that would be freaking cool. I've already seen articles about a PS3 linux.. so the possibilities are pretty wide open.

chrisbid
11-14-2005, 09:55 AM
even if hackers could find a way to get around this, the used game market at legit retailers would all but dry up. unless you sell the workaround with a used game, you couldnt sell used games to the public, and there would be all kinds of legal wrestling over that.

but again, its all wait and see. but the more DMR stuff i read about sony, the less likely i am to purchase a PS3, regaurdless of how this particular issue pans out.

exit
11-14-2005, 01:23 PM
I don't see how they can be against the the sale of used games, especially if the game is out of print or for a dead console. It would make sequels pointless, because new copies of games won't be sold forever, so you're screwed when MGS5 comes out. Unless there is a proccess where you can register/unregister your games, this whole thing seems unlikely.

I could also imagine sales on E-bay on sealed games, it would make the absurd even more absurd.

n8littlefield
11-14-2005, 01:40 PM
I would say the only legit way to check for used games sales would be some type of online system, because you certainly can't tell someone that if they have 2 PS3's in their house they can't play the game on both. Given that there are, and will always be, gamers who don't want to play online, it seems like implementation would be impossible.

chrisbid
11-14-2005, 03:36 PM
I don't see how they can be against the the sale of used games, especially if the game is out of print or for a dead console. It would make sequels pointless, because new copies of games won't be sold forever, so you're screwed when MGS5 comes out. Unless there is a proccess where you can register/unregister your games, this whole thing seems unlikely.

I could also imagine sales on E-bay on sealed games, it would make the absurd even more absurd.

im sure they kept their eyes on how well the steam system worked with halflife 2-worked on the PC. its a pretty fair assumption that internet access is cheap enough (dialup is only 10 bucks a month) that it can be required to use a high end console.


I would say the only legit way to check for used games sales would be some type of online system, because you certainly can't tell someone that if they have 2 PS3's in their house they can't play the game on both. Given that there are, and will always be, gamers who don't want to play online, it seems like implementation would be impossible.

we all agree that the idea is shortsighted, but there are corporate bean counters at sony that disagree. they also truely believe their own inflated numbers on their "losses" due to piracy (as if every pirated copy of a game produced comes at the expense of a sale of a new game).

Ed Oscuro
05-24-2006, 05:32 PM
Since this is apparently the thread for this discussion, I guess it's time to give it the ol' bump because this story is not going away.

GamesRadar article (http://www.gamesradar.com/gb/ps3/game/news/article.jsp?articleId=20060524153157765035&sectionId=1006).

Ed Oscuro
05-24-2006, 05:32 PM
Since this is apparently the thread for this discussion, I guess it's time to give it the ol' bump because this story is not going away.

GamesRadar article (http://www.gamesradar.com/gb/ps3/game/news/article.jsp?articleId=20060524153157765035&sectionId=1006).

cyberfluxor
05-24-2006, 06:03 PM
Well, believe it or not I think it's a great idea. It would stablize the next generation of video games in the market place and keep a strong hold on things. If you can only get it new and it's out of production, then ones sealed would be worth unbelieveable amounts of money, making it a strong investment. Plus if you ever sell your system, all games must go with it so many great bulk buys will be seen. Most will dislike the taste of this marketing scheme but we'll have to wait and see how it works out.

cyberfluxor
05-24-2006, 06:03 PM
Well, believe it or not I think it's a great idea. It would stablize the next generation of video games in the market place and keep a strong hold on things. If you can only get it new and it's out of production, then ones sealed would be worth unbelieveable amounts of money, making it a strong investment. Plus if you ever sell your system, all games must go with it so many great bulk buys will be seen. Most will dislike the taste of this marketing scheme but we'll have to wait and see how it works out.

Ed Oscuro
05-24-2006, 06:12 PM
It would stablize the next generation of video games in the market place and keep a strong hold on things.
WELL I'M GLAD TO SEE THAT SOMEBODY ELSE WELCOMES OUR ALIEN OVERLORDS


If you can only get it new and it's out of production, then ones sealed would be worth unbelieveable amounts of money, making it a strong investment.
News Flash: Resale is ILLEGAL. You only license the content. :roll: Judging from the fact that Valve charges you a fee ($10) to transfer games on Steam, it's no great leap to consider that Sony would probably be able to pressure eBay and other auction sites to delist resales of PS3 games.

This is a terrible idea and if this sort of content management aimed at making us peasants in the digital age with no ability to create libraries to call our own.

Ed Oscuro
05-24-2006, 06:12 PM
It would stablize the next generation of video games in the market place and keep a strong hold on things.
WELL I'M GLAD TO SEE THAT SOMEBODY ELSE WELCOMES OUR ALIEN OVERLORDS


If you can only get it new and it's out of production, then ones sealed would be worth unbelieveable amounts of money, making it a strong investment.
News Flash: Resale is ILLEGAL. You only license the content. :roll: Judging from the fact that Valve charges you a fee ($10) to transfer games on Steam, it's no great leap to consider that Sony would probably be able to pressure eBay and other auction sites to delist resales of PS3 games.

This is a terrible idea and if this sort of content management aimed at making us peasants in the digital age with no ability to create libraries to call our own.

cyberfluxor
05-24-2006, 06:39 PM
Do whatever you want, you have choices. I'll get a PS3 if I feel and will buy depending on how they market themselves. At this rate though if I do buy the system I'd just get the major titles that I know I'll enjoy a lot. In addition though, I don't have a PS2 so don't call me some $ony f4nb0i or some other crap. Shoot, I don't even have an Xbawx.

cyberfluxor
05-24-2006, 06:39 PM
Do whatever you want, you have choices. I'll get a PS3 if I feel and will buy depending on how they market themselves. At this rate though if I do buy the system I'd just get the major titles that I know I'll enjoy a lot. In addition though, I don't have a PS2 so don't call me some $ony f4nb0i or some other crap. Shoot, I don't even have an Xbawx.

Ed Oscuro
05-24-2006, 07:04 PM
In addition though, I don't have a PS2 so don't call me some $ony f4nb0i or some other crap.
No, but I don't think it's a great disservice to correct you in ways of thinking that are flawed. It seems that the PS3 may indeed lock games to specific consoles once they are sold, so the only way to sell a used PS3 game might be to sell the console it was originally used on as well. Hardly a bargain from where I'm standing...

Ed Oscuro
05-24-2006, 07:04 PM
In addition though, I don't have a PS2 so don't call me some $ony f4nb0i or some other crap.
No, but I don't think it's a great disservice to correct you in ways of thinking that are flawed. It seems that the PS3 may indeed lock games to specific consoles once they are sold, so the only way to sell a used PS3 game might be to sell the console it was originally used on as well. Hardly a bargain from where I'm standing...

GarrettCRW
05-24-2006, 08:39 PM
If Sony actually goes forth with this crazy idea, they deserve to go out of business. Then, maybe, media companies will hold off on treating their paying customers like thieves.

GarrettCRW
05-24-2006, 08:39 PM
If Sony actually goes forth with this crazy idea, they deserve to go out of business. Then, maybe, media companies will hold off on treating their paying customers like thieves.

studvicious
05-24-2006, 09:43 PM
I do agree that the developers and publishers should get a cut from the used game sales, I have no problem with that. But if Sony were to pull something like this that would be crazy. But on the other hand I'm sure it wouldn't take someone long to find "other ways" around it. :)

studvicious
05-24-2006, 09:43 PM
I do agree that the developers and publishers should get a cut from the used game sales, I have no problem with that. But if Sony were to pull something like this that would be crazy. But on the other hand I'm sure it wouldn't take someone long to find "other ways" around it. :)

Poofta!
05-24-2006, 10:33 PM
i completely agree with Ed on this, this is a terrible terrible idea for all gamers. and might mean the end of their system. some of you know that im very pro-ps3, but if this comes through, i will NOT be buying one.

Poofta!
05-24-2006, 10:33 PM
i completely agree with Ed on this, this is a terrible terrible idea for all gamers. and might mean the end of their system. some of you know that im very pro-ps3, but if this comes through, i will NOT be buying one.

smork
05-24-2006, 11:15 PM
I'm interested in the PS3 (after a nice price drop) -- but I am not interested if I can't get used games for it. I'm just not paying full retail for every game. I do it for maybe 5-10% of my games now.

It'll just be another thing for hackers to fix on the console, and if they do implement this expect to see a chip circumventing this down the road.

smork
05-24-2006, 11:15 PM
I'm interested in the PS3 (after a nice price drop) -- but I am not interested if I can't get used games for it. I'm just not paying full retail for every game. I do it for maybe 5-10% of my games now.

It'll just be another thing for hackers to fix on the console, and if they do implement this expect to see a chip circumventing this down the road.

Push Upstairs
05-25-2006, 12:06 AM
I like the idea of Blu Ray (i'm in favor of more space for more content..if it should get used)

But i don't agree with this line of thinking, its stupid and will backfire.

If Sony implements this into thier system then hand me a pitchfork and let me join the angry mob. :angry:

Push Upstairs
05-25-2006, 12:06 AM
I like the idea of Blu Ray (i'm in favor of more space for more content..if it should get used)

But i don't agree with this line of thinking, its stupid and will backfire.

If Sony implements this into thier system then hand me a pitchfork and let me join the angry mob. :angry:

chrisbid
05-25-2006, 12:40 AM
I do agree that the developers and publishers should get a cut from the used game sales, I have no problem with that. But if Sony were to pull something like this that would be crazy. But on the other hand I'm sure it wouldn't take someone long to find "other ways" around it. :)

they do get a cut from used game sales, how do you think kids afford to buy new games? they trade in old stuff for credit toward new games and systems. and if gamEBstop didnt do as well as it does with second hand sales, then they would not be able to stock as many new titles as they do (which is far wider range than walmart or other box stores)

chrisbid
05-25-2006, 12:40 AM
I do agree that the developers and publishers should get a cut from the used game sales, I have no problem with that. But if Sony were to pull something like this that would be crazy. But on the other hand I'm sure it wouldn't take someone long to find "other ways" around it. :)

they do get a cut from used game sales, how do you think kids afford to buy new games? they trade in old stuff for credit toward new games and systems. and if gamEBstop didnt do as well as it does with second hand sales, then they would not be able to stock as many new titles as they do (which is far wider range than walmart or other box stores)

GarrettCRW
05-25-2006, 01:26 AM
It'll just be another thing for hackers to fix on the console, and if they do implement this expect to see a chip circumventing this down the road.

And you can be assured that Sony will do the firmware upgrade thing that acts to deter people from messing with their PSPs.

GarrettCRW
05-25-2006, 01:26 AM
It'll just be another thing for hackers to fix on the console, and if they do implement this expect to see a chip circumventing this down the road.

And you can be assured that Sony will do the firmware upgrade thing that acts to deter people from messing with their PSPs.

Anthony1
05-25-2006, 01:50 AM
To be totally honest, this is actually a very good idea for Sony, and the Publishers, but it's horrible for everybody else. Why is it a good idea? Well, it's a very good idea, because it counters the actions of people like me.


You see, I will not purchase "ANY" brand new retail game that costs more than $19.99. It simply isn't logical for me. Why? Simple. Rental Plans. There are so many good rental plans available nowadays, that actually buying games for anything more than $19.99 isn't logical. I can rent Xbox 360 games for $3.50 for a 30 day period. Now, If I went out and bought a Xbox 360 game brand new for $59.99 plus tax, we are talking $64.64 grand total. Well, just divide that amount by $3.50. That means I could rent that same game for 18 months if I really wanted to, for the same price as buying it brand new.

Now, I don't know about you, but I typically only play my games for like 3 or 4 months, and then they just sit on the shelf and collect dust. I'm talking about current and next generation games, mind you. Wtih the passing of time, when games become "classics", I can return to them a number of times, but for the vast majority of new retail games, I only play them for a few months and then that's about it. I move on to something else. With paying $3.50 per month, it only costs me $14 to keep it for 4 months, which is typically as much time as I need. Some games, I only play them for 1 month or 2, and some I can play for 6 or 8 months, but it averages out to about 4 months. I don't know about you, but I would much rather pay $14 than $64.64.


Now, I understand that the person that pays $65 can keep it for 4 months and then sell it on Craigslist or Ebay or whatever, but there is no question that they are going to take a larger loss than $14, plus they have all that money tied up in that game for nothing. Plus, as fast as prices are dropping on games, that game could be on sale someplace for $39.99 or $29.99 4 months later, and you have to sell the used one that much cheaper just to sell it. And don't even get me started on trade ins. The amount of $ that they give people for trade ins, is a complete joke.


Buying brand new retail games for more than $19.99 or $24.99 just doesn't make any sense with the rental plans that are now currently available. The advent of Monthly rental plans has completely changed my buying habits and I'm sure I'm not alone. Sony knows that this is going on, and they are very worried that people like me will buy a PS3 on launch day, but won't buy anything else. Because that is exactly what I was planning on doing. The only money that I'll be spending on PS3 launch day is the $599.99 price and the tax. I have absolutely no plans to purchase anything else. I have absolutely no plans to actually buy any PS3 software. I plan on renting PS3 games exclusively.


Having said that, there will be a day when games for the 360 and PS3 find their way into a bargain bin, for $19.99 or $14.99 or $9.99 or whatever, and at that point, If it's a game I'm interested in, then maybe, just maybe, I'll actually buy it.

Anthony1
05-25-2006, 01:50 AM
To be totally honest, this is actually a very good idea for Sony, and the Publishers, but it's horrible for everybody else. Why is it a good idea? Well, it's a very good idea, because it counters the actions of people like me.


You see, I will not purchase "ANY" brand new retail game that costs more than $19.99. It simply isn't logical for me. Why? Simple. Rental Plans. There are so many good rental plans available nowadays, that actually buying games for anything more than $19.99 isn't logical. I can rent Xbox 360 games for $3.50 for a 30 day period. Now, If I went out and bought a Xbox 360 game brand new for $59.99 plus tax, we are talking $64.64 grand total. Well, just divide that amount by $3.50. That means I could rent that same game for 18 months if I really wanted to, for the same price as buying it brand new.

Now, I don't know about you, but I typically only play my games for like 3 or 4 months, and then they just sit on the shelf and collect dust. I'm talking about current and next generation games, mind you. Wtih the passing of time, when games become "classics", I can return to them a number of times, but for the vast majority of new retail games, I only play them for a few months and then that's about it. I move on to something else. With paying $3.50 per month, it only costs me $14 to keep it for 4 months, which is typically as much time as I need. Some games, I only play them for 1 month or 2, and some I can play for 6 or 8 months, but it averages out to about 4 months. I don't know about you, but I would much rather pay $14 than $64.64.


Now, I understand that the person that pays $65 can keep it for 4 months and then sell it on Craigslist or Ebay or whatever, but there is no question that they are going to take a larger loss than $14, plus they have all that money tied up in that game for nothing. Plus, as fast as prices are dropping on games, that game could be on sale someplace for $39.99 or $29.99 4 months later, and you have to sell the used one that much cheaper just to sell it. And don't even get me started on trade ins. The amount of $ that they give people for trade ins, is a complete joke.


Buying brand new retail games for more than $19.99 or $24.99 just doesn't make any sense with the rental plans that are now currently available. The advent of Monthly rental plans has completely changed my buying habits and I'm sure I'm not alone. Sony knows that this is going on, and they are very worried that people like me will buy a PS3 on launch day, but won't buy anything else. Because that is exactly what I was planning on doing. The only money that I'll be spending on PS3 launch day is the $599.99 price and the tax. I have absolutely no plans to purchase anything else. I have absolutely no plans to actually buy any PS3 software. I plan on renting PS3 games exclusively.


Having said that, there will be a day when games for the 360 and PS3 find their way into a bargain bin, for $19.99 or $14.99 or $9.99 or whatever, and at that point, If it's a game I'm interested in, then maybe, just maybe, I'll actually buy it.

DeputyMoniker
05-25-2006, 02:38 AM
How old is that quote?

It was on the front page of next-gen.biz yesterday. (actually its still the featured story now)

DeputyMoniker
05-25-2006, 02:38 AM
How old is that quote?

It was on the front page of next-gen.biz yesterday. (actually its still the featured story now)

studvicious
05-25-2006, 04:14 AM
they do get a cut from used game sales, how do you think kids afford to buy new games? they trade in old stuff for credit toward new games and systems. and if gamEBstop didnt do as well as it does with second hand sales, then they would not be able to stock as many new titles as they do (which is far wider range than walmart or other box stores)

No they don't actually. I'm talking about someone buying the game at full price whether it be at EB Games, Gamestop, Wal-Mart wherever and then trading that game in. They (the dev., pub., Sony etc.) only get money from the original sale. NOT when EB, GS resell that game over and over again when someone brings it in used. And then Sony and other companies are getting PO'd having to give customer service to people who never really bought anything from THEM in the first place.

studvicious
05-25-2006, 04:14 AM
they do get a cut from used game sales, how do you think kids afford to buy new games? they trade in old stuff for credit toward new games and systems. and if gamEBstop didnt do as well as it does with second hand sales, then they would not be able to stock as many new titles as they do (which is far wider range than walmart or other box stores)

No they don't actually. I'm talking about someone buying the game at full price whether it be at EB Games, Gamestop, Wal-Mart wherever and then trading that game in. They (the dev., pub., Sony etc.) only get money from the original sale. NOT when EB, GS resell that game over and over again when someone brings it in used. And then Sony and other companies are getting PO'd having to give customer service to people who never really bought anything from THEM in the first place.

FantasiaWHT
05-25-2006, 07:49 AM
Gamefaq's poll today is about whether or not you would buy a system on which you couldn't play used or rented games.

http://www.gamefaqs.com/poll/index.html?poll=2387

Not as skewed to not buying one as I'd thought, but with the gamefaq's crowd who knows if that means anything. Yet there is a good point on there... If (really big if here, cause I doubt Sony would do it) the price point for a brand new game dropped significantly, that might molify a decent portion of the used-game buyers.

Here's a question... how many ignorant parents etc. would get ripped off on ebay trying to find a cheap used copy of a PS3 game? heh.

FantasiaWHT
05-25-2006, 07:49 AM
Gamefaq's poll today is about whether or not you would buy a system on which you couldn't play used or rented games.

http://www.gamefaqs.com/poll/index.html?poll=2387

Not as skewed to not buying one as I'd thought, but with the gamefaq's crowd who knows if that means anything. Yet there is a good point on there... If (really big if here, cause I doubt Sony would do it) the price point for a brand new game dropped significantly, that might molify a decent portion of the used-game buyers.

Here's a question... how many ignorant parents etc. would get ripped off on ebay trying to find a cheap used copy of a PS3 game? heh.

jdc
05-25-2006, 08:02 AM
This is an awesome idea that I've been hoping would see the light of day eventually.

This is also an idea that I've been dreading. It depends on which side of the fence you want to stand on.

Having worked in the game industry, I know all too well the fact that the rental of games and sales of used games do nothing much for game developers, but do everything for gameshop owners and places like Blockbuster, since used and rental is where the profit margins occur. You might get someone to rent a game and like it enough to buy a new copy, but in most cases a person will rent a game for 3 days and be done with it, whether he's finished or not. I'm not referring to the kinds of "hardcore" gamers that you see here on DP, I'm talking about Joe Walmart who demands his right to game for next to nothing.

It used to piss me off that you'd get people that would excitedly line up to buy the latest new console, and then proceed to rent games for the next year or gush about the "gotta have" new releases and how they would wait like vultures until a used copy shows up. It's pretty lame when you get requests to reserve used copies on the day that new a title is released. The average casual gamer has entire harddrives full of incomplete game files. These people can't afford their gaming jones, so why bother in the first place? And why cater to them? What if EVERYONE rented or purchased only used games? Where would that leave game developers? How would you feel about taking years to create new product that had a great chance of NOT selling through? You'd eventually throw in the towel completely or at least cut back your development of new software.

The only negative that I can see from the consumer side of the fence is that collectors would be left out in the cold IF they wanted libraries that were capable of actually being played in machines. I'd personally love to see Joe Walmart burn for once.

For the record, I don't think that this idea will ever see the light of day, unless all three of the big guys were to incorporate it.

jdc
05-25-2006, 08:02 AM
This is an awesome idea that I've been hoping would see the light of day eventually.

This is also an idea that I've been dreading. It depends on which side of the fence you want to stand on.

Having worked in the game industry, I know all too well the fact that the rental of games and sales of used games do nothing much for game developers, but do everything for gameshop owners and places like Blockbuster, since used and rental is where the profit margins occur. You might get someone to rent a game and like it enough to buy a new copy, but in most cases a person will rent a game for 3 days and be done with it, whether he's finished or not. I'm not referring to the kinds of "hardcore" gamers that you see here on DP, I'm talking about Joe Walmart who demands his right to game for next to nothing.

It used to piss me off that you'd get people that would excitedly line up to buy the latest new console, and then proceed to rent games for the next year or gush about the "gotta have" new releases and how they would wait like vultures until a used copy shows up. It's pretty lame when you get requests to reserve used copies on the day that new a title is released. The average casual gamer has entire harddrives full of incomplete game files. These people can't afford their gaming jones, so why bother in the first place? And why cater to them? What if EVERYONE rented or purchased only used games? Where would that leave game developers? How would you feel about taking years to create new product that had a great chance of NOT selling through? You'd eventually throw in the towel completely or at least cut back your development of new software.

The only negative that I can see from the consumer side of the fence is that collectors would be left out in the cold IF they wanted libraries that were capable of actually being played in machines. I'd personally love to see Joe Walmart burn for once.

For the record, I don't think that this idea will ever see the light of day, unless all three of the big guys were to incorporate it.

WanganRunner
05-25-2006, 08:08 AM
I think that this is really going to turn into a battle between the game companies and the retail companies.

I mean, you or I would definitely be hurt by this development, but EB would be hurt much more. Ever notice how much they bug you and incentivize you to turn in your old games? That's because the used market carries massive profit margins for them, far higher than the new market does for any item.

I can almost see EB refusing to carry any hardware that doesn't allow for used game sales. That would be a HUGE blow to any game company endorsing a "no preowned" policy. Sure, in some parts of the country, people buy more games at WalMart or whatever, but I know that where I live, I don't even know where a Walmart IS. It's ALL EB and stuff like that, little stores.

WanganRunner
05-25-2006, 08:08 AM
I think that this is really going to turn into a battle between the game companies and the retail companies.

I mean, you or I would definitely be hurt by this development, but EB would be hurt much more. Ever notice how much they bug you and incentivize you to turn in your old games? That's because the used market carries massive profit margins for them, far higher than the new market does for any item.

I can almost see EB refusing to carry any hardware that doesn't allow for used game sales. That would be a HUGE blow to any game company endorsing a "no preowned" policy. Sure, in some parts of the country, people buy more games at WalMart or whatever, but I know that where I live, I don't even know where a Walmart IS. It's ALL EB and stuff like that, little stores.

sabre2922
05-25-2006, 08:32 AM
IF any of this is even REMOTELY true then the only next-gen systems I will get are the Wii and 360 and continue collecting for the PS2.

Fucking Sony is out of control with the whole Playstation 3 thing from the pricing to this whole Big Brother 1984 type bullshit.

sabre2922
05-25-2006, 08:32 AM
IF any of this is even REMOTELY true then the only next-gen systems I will get are the Wii and 360 and continue collecting for the PS2.

Fucking Sony is out of control with the whole Playstation 3 thing from the pricing to this whole Big Brother 1984 type bullshit.

Flack
05-25-2006, 11:02 AM
This has been debunked several times, most recently by Sony.

http://www.engadget.com/2006/05/24/rumor-sony-to-disable-used-ps3-games-sony-nope/

Flack
05-25-2006, 11:02 AM
This has been debunked several times, most recently by Sony.

http://www.engadget.com/2006/05/24/rumor-sony-to-disable-used-ps3-games-sony-nope/

chrisbid
05-25-2006, 11:21 AM
they do get a cut from used game sales, how do you think kids afford to buy new games? they trade in old stuff for credit toward new games and systems. and if gamEBstop didnt do as well as it does with second hand sales, then they would not be able to stock as many new titles as they do (which is far wider range than walmart or other box stores)

No they don't actually. I'm talking about someone buying the game at full price whether it be at EB Games, Gamestop, Wal-Mart wherever and then trading that game in. They (the dev., pub., Sony etc.) only get money from the original sale. NOT when EB, GS resell that game over and over again when someone brings it in used. And then Sony and other companies are getting PO'd having to give customer service to people who never really bought anything from THEM in the first place.

publishers do not get money from first hand sales either, they get money from retailers buying in bulk. if large retailers like gamEBstop arent doing as well due to say a sudden drop in revenue after used game sales are eliminated, then the publishers lose out. the wal marts and best buys of the world do not stock a large variety of titles, and if the major video game centric retailer goes down, the industry isnt going to gain anything from it.

chrisbid
05-25-2006, 11:21 AM
they do get a cut from used game sales, how do you think kids afford to buy new games? they trade in old stuff for credit toward new games and systems. and if gamEBstop didnt do as well as it does with second hand sales, then they would not be able to stock as many new titles as they do (which is far wider range than walmart or other box stores)

No they don't actually. I'm talking about someone buying the game at full price whether it be at EB Games, Gamestop, Wal-Mart wherever and then trading that game in. They (the dev., pub., Sony etc.) only get money from the original sale. NOT when EB, GS resell that game over and over again when someone brings it in used. And then Sony and other companies are getting PO'd having to give customer service to people who never really bought anything from THEM in the first place.

publishers do not get money from first hand sales either, they get money from retailers buying in bulk. if large retailers like gamEBstop arent doing as well due to say a sudden drop in revenue after used game sales are eliminated, then the publishers lose out. the wal marts and best buys of the world do not stock a large variety of titles, and if the major video game centric retailer goes down, the industry isnt going to gain anything from it.

chrisbid
05-25-2006, 11:23 AM
and i dont buy the customer service argument either. for hardware, i can see it. but for software, the disc either works or it doesnt. if a disc doesnt work and it is still under warranty (you need a proof of new purchase), then you get a new disc. its not like DVDs are expensive to press

chrisbid
05-25-2006, 11:23 AM
and i dont buy the customer service argument either. for hardware, i can see it. but for software, the disc either works or it doesnt. if a disc doesnt work and it is still under warranty (you need a proof of new purchase), then you get a new disc. its not like DVDs are expensive to press

chrisbid
05-25-2006, 11:38 AM
This has been debunked several times, most recently by Sony.

http://www.engadget.com/2006/05/24/rumor-sony-to-disable-used-ps3-games-sony-nope/

Enabling hardware to shutdown and forcing a licensing agreement that states used game sales are illegal (well, not illegal, but not authorized), then putting heat on retailers not to sell used games is a pretty wide gap. its a different strategy to fight the same problem.

chrisbid
05-25-2006, 11:38 AM
This has been debunked several times, most recently by Sony.

http://www.engadget.com/2006/05/24/rumor-sony-to-disable-used-ps3-games-sony-nope/

Enabling hardware to shutdown and forcing a licensing agreement that states used game sales are illegal (well, not illegal, but not authorized), then putting heat on retailers not to sell used games is a pretty wide gap. its a different strategy to fight the same problem.

Ed Oscuro
05-25-2006, 02:56 PM
This has been debunked several times, most recently by Sony.

http://www.engadget.com/2006/05/24/rumor-sony-to-disable-used-ps3-games-sony-nope/

Enabling hardware to shutdown and forcing a licensing agreement that states used game sales are illegal (well, not illegal, but not authorized), then putting heat on retailers not to sell used games is a pretty wide gap. its a different strategy to fight the same problem.
I seriously hope this rumor may eventually be debunked as well.

My question, naturally, is if Sony doesn't plan to use this tech, why did they go through the bother of developing it?

Ed Oscuro
05-25-2006, 04:21 PM
Okay, Sony has now denied this rumor as well. Source. (http://www.gamesindustry.biz/content_page.php?aid=17283)

Is there a group out there spreading rumors about Sony?

GuilewasNK
05-25-2006, 04:27 PM
Until I see something from IGN or Gamespot, I'll take everything with a grain of salt.

chrisbid
05-25-2006, 04:53 PM
Okay, Sony has now denied this rumor as well. Source. (http://www.gamesindustry.biz/content_page.php?aid=17283)

Is there a group out there spreading rumors about Sony?

these are the direct quotes from sony


PlayStation 3 software will not be copy protected to a single machine but will be playable on any PlayStation 3 console.

there has been no official comment on this since the story that came up a few months ago - it hasn't changed since then, and we're quite surprised by why this has popped up again, to be honest

that is only a denial of hardware lockout, not bullying a retailer to not sell used games... which is the new rumor

Anthony1
05-25-2006, 05:17 PM
I'm not sure why we are all worrying about this thing anyway, cause there is no way this shit will happen. Eventually games will be download only, and that is how they will get things on there side, but they know they have to gradually introduce that. You have to slowly but surely introduce that, otherwise, EB, GameStop, GameCrazy and all the others will do everything in their power to back your primary competitor.


I fully expect that late in the Xbox 360's lifetime, you will be able to download full versions of 360 games, for a reduced price, but it won't be 100 percent of all available games. For example, if 15 games are released in a given month, maybe 7 or 8 of them will be available for download for like a $35 fee, or you can buy the actual retail disc for $49.99. Some consumers could care less about the physical thing, and will prefer to save a little money, but others will prefer the physical thing. It's going to be a slow death for GameStop and EB and GameCrazy. In fact, things will just barely get started in that direction towards the end of the PS3, 360 and Wii generation. And then in the following generation of systems, it will move much more in that direction, but I'm guessing that EB and GameStop and GameCrazy will still survive, but when we are talking about the generation following that, in about 16 years, there will be NO PHYSICAL MEDIA. It's at this point that the First Party and Publishers will get their way in terms of used game sales and all that.

EB, GameStop and GameCrazy have about 15 to 17 years left of existence. That's a long time, but then again, time flies.

heybtbm
05-25-2006, 05:29 PM
EB, GameStop and GameCrazy have about 15 to 17 years left of existence. That's a long time, but then again, time flies.

Hey, Future-man...if its not too much problem, could you tell me who wins the next 15 Superbowls? Thanks in advance.

Anthony1
05-25-2006, 05:39 PM
Hey, Future-man...if its not too much problem, could you tell me who wins the next 15 Superbowls? Thanks in advance.



Unfortunately, that is much harder to predict. LOL

Bronty-2
05-25-2006, 05:58 PM
It's a logical prediction, but a lot can change in a year.. let alone 17. :embarrassed:

Ed Oscuro
05-26-2006, 05:10 AM
That is only a denial of hardware lockout, not bullying a retailer to not sell used games... which is the new rumor
As you wish, but the article states that the Sony reps denied that specific rumor. My prediction: Used games will be happening on the PS3.

TurboGenesis
05-26-2006, 09:20 AM
I'm not sure why we are all worrying about this thing anyway, cause there is no way this shit will happen. Eventually games will be download only, and that is how they will get things on there side, but they know they have to gradually introduce that. You have to slowly but surely introduce that, otherwise, EB, GameStop, GameCrazy and all the others will do everything in their power to back your primary competitor.


I fully expect that late in the Xbox 360's lifetime, you will be able to download full versions of 360 games, for a reduced price, but it won't be 100 percent of all available games. For example, if 15 games are released in a given month, maybe 7 or 8 of them will be available for download for like a $35 fee, or you can buy the actual retail disc for $49.99. Some consumers could care less about the physical thing, and will prefer to save a little money, but others will prefer the physical thing. It's going to be a slow death for GameStop and EB and GameCrazy. In fact, things will just barely get started in that direction towards the end of the PS3, 360 and Wii generation. And then in the following generation of systems, it will move much more in that direction, but I'm guessing that EB and GameStop and GameCrazy will still survive, but when we are talking about the generation following that, in about 16 years, there will be NO PHYSICAL MEDIA. It's at this point that the First Party and Publishers will get their way in terms of used game sales and all that.


I had a discussion with a colleauge about this. It goes beyond video games. Music is already downloaded for a nominal fee. For movies, there is on demand cable. Eventually games could head on this front. heck Sega did it with the Sega Channel and Wii is offering a masive collection for download. I don't favor this single serving disposible trend but technology just seems to be heading there.

cyberfluxor
05-29-2006, 12:19 AM
My prediction: Used games will be happening on the PS3.

My predition: Same as Ed's.

Although I sway either way cause it's their choice on how to distribute and control it, since they did come out claiming it's a rumor, I'll now stick with that until launch or if they change their statement. Either way, since I still don't play on getting a Xbox360 or PS3 til fall '07 at the earliest there's plenty of time to find out what's up with the data discs and the titles that got launched on each.

DonMarco
05-29-2006, 09:22 AM
So IF this used game protection were to actually be used, how exactly would they go about it? The easiest way would be a key printed on the instructinon manual and online registration. But not everyone is online. Forcing people to call it in would be a way around that.

If the Blu-ray games comes in plastic shells like the UMDs, there could be a small chip or magnetic strip in the plastic and the PS3 unit writes it's ID to it, preventing other PS3 units from playing the game. Maybe the PS3 will claim a disc by actually writing on it, in a predesignated spot.

Not allowing used games would be a pretty big blow to the system, however. There are plenty of parents that treat their kids with $5-10 games from the used bins. People that bought a game and didn't like it, looking to sell for some credit on another game or cash.