Good news / Bad news .. 360 :)

[Arkaign]

This is pretty interesting

http://www.joystiq.com/entry/1234000763069745/#comments

Looks like 360 is going to be HELLISH to hack .. so we're not likely to see workable Linux or hacks and such for quite some time, if ever.

Good side of this :

*Probably be very little cheating/hacks in Live 360 gaming
*With the lack of pirated games, companies will see higher profits perhaps .. more affordable games? Hmm probably not, but it's possible

Bad side of this :

Can't do anything with it that Microsoft doesn't want (alternative video formats, operating systems, emulators, etc)

Thoughts?

[OldSchoolGamer]

Unhackable.yeah heard it before, hype your product as un-hackable and get all the talented hackers on it.........give it 6 months, everything can be hacked...........

[Joker T]

I never did any hacks with the original Xbox but that was a big thing for the original Xbox. It obviously isn't hurting sales though LOL

[NE146]

Unhackable.yeah heard it before, hype your product as un-hackable and get all the talented hackers on it.........give it 6 months, everything can be hacked...........

Actually no one said it was unhackable. As a matter o' fact most anyone at MS and especially the 360 designers themselves would probably tell you the exact same thing... i.e. anything can be hacked.

...But it doesn't mean they shouldn't have to try to make it harder to do it. :)

[njiska]

I don't mind that 360 hard to hack. That's what the Xbox is for.

But all the same the community is always up for a challenge and that's what makes things interesting.

[unwinddesign]

It would seem that the harder they are to hack, the harder they fall when they do. Take the Dreamcast: it held out for a loooooong time, until it was ultimately DECIMATED by an easy to open backdoor. It's like Sega remembered to fix all their defenses and outfit them with nuclear weapons silos, but left the key to the venilation shaft in the lock.

Then again, MS has massive amounts of money to throw at the thing, and it seemed that all the hacking with the Xbox didn't really hurt it too much, so we'll see. Personally, I don't care. I have a computer that is more than capable of playing all my media files and a DVD player hooked up in my home entertainment center.

[Trebuken]

If the 360 can emulate the Xbox, it can emulate the PS2 and Gamecube. I think it will really hit the fan if someone manages a PS2 emulator that outputs PS2 games in 720P...

I can't wiat for it...
(God of War in 720P...)

Later,
Trebuken

[Anthony1]

If the 360 can emulate the Xbox, it can emulate the PS2 and Gamecube. I think it will really hit the fan if someone manages a PS2 emulator that outputs PS2 games in 720P...

I can't wiat for it...
(God of War in 720P...)

Later,
Trebuken



The GameCube uses ATI technology for the GPU right? The Cube's emulation could be even better than the Xbox 1 emulation.

[RCM]

I don't think it would keep piracy down one way or the other. I'm of the opinion that those who pirate were never going to buy anyway generally.

[goatdan]

It would seem that the harder they are to hack, the harder they fall when they do. Take the Dreamcast: it held out for a loooooong time, until it was ultimately DECIMATED by an easy to open backdoor. It's like Sega remembered to fix all their defenses and outfit them with nuclear weapons silos, but left the key to the venilation shaft in the lock.

hahaha! That is perhaps one of the best statements I've ever heard on the subject, and altogether too true.

That having been said, the Dreamcast actually didn't hold out that long. I knew some people who were messing with an imported console before release in the US and had it doing some interesting stuff. It just took a while for the piracy on it to take off to another level.


I don't think it would keep piracy down one way or the other. I'm of the opinion that those who pirate were never going to buy anyway generally.

That's a very bold statement, and one that simply isn't true unfortunately.

If you go and purchase a system, it follows that you will be purchasing something to put into that system. That's simply not the case if you can pirate everything on it. I know a couple people that purchased Xboxes because they absolutely loved Halo and wanted a system to play it on. They got a used system, modded it and have downloaded hundreds of games. They never even purchased Halo itself.

Had they not been able to mod the system, they have both said that they would've got it and Halo for sure. Of course, no one buys a game system for just one game, so eventually they would've got some more. Let's say they get Doom 3 and Halo 2 only. So they have three games. That's a total of six between the two people that I know.

And with the amount of stuff they have downloaded, they would probably have bought more than that.

Regardless, it is a loss of sales for the console. Let's say that they are in the minority for the console -- 1% of people are pirating. And there are, what, 5,000,000 or so Xboxes out there (I really don't know, and since this is an example it doesn't matter the actual number). 1% of that is 50,000 people pirating. If the total gained by Microsoft from the sale of those three games was $9.00 ($3.00 licensing per game), then a piracy rate of 1% would be equal to about half a million dollars.

That's still an effect of piracy. And if people aren't purchasing a console because they can't pirate on it:

1) Microsoft doesn't lose money selling a console (with a loss of $127) to someone who will never purchase a game.
2) Game companies don't have to worry about their games being ripped and put online early, like the big deal with Halo 2.

Those are two VERY big reasons to keep piracy in check. The harder it is to pirate, the less money is lost on hardware sales to people with no intention to purchase and the more money is made by game companies that don't have to worry about "well, the Xbox version will be raped and pillaged, so maybe we should just make an Xbox 360 version."

I'm not naive enough to think that this will thwart the pirates for a while, but the harder it is to pirate for a console, the less people will do it. And for that, I say to Microsoft hurrah. The Dreamcast showed exactly what can happen when piracy takes almost no skills and no console modification, and the difference between it and a better locked down system are light years.

Of course, Nintendo has the best locked down system of the current generation, and that didn't help them one damn bit.

[RCM]

I don't think it would keep piracy down one way or the other. I'm of the opinion that those who pirate were never going to buy anyway generally.

That's a very bold statement, and one that simply isn't true unfortunately.

If you go and purchase a system, it follows that you will be purchasing something to put into that system. That's simply not the case if you can pirate everything on it. I know a couple people that purchased Xboxes because they absolutely loved Halo and wanted a system to play it on. They got a used system, modded it and have downloaded hundreds of games. They never even purchased Halo itself.

Had they not been able to mod the system, they have both said that they would've got it and Halo for sure. Of course, no one buys a game system for just one game, so eventually they would've got some more. Let's say they get Doom 3 and Halo 2 only. So they have three games. That's a total of six between the two people that I know.

And with the amount of stuff they have downloaded, they would probably have bought more than that.

Regardless, it is a loss of sales for the console. Let's say that they are in the minority for the console -- 1% of people are pirating. And there are, what, 5,000,000 or so Xboxes out there (I really don't know, and since this is an example it doesn't matter the actual number). 1% of that is 50,000 people pirating. If the total gained by Microsoft from the sale of those three games was $9.00 ($3.00 licensing per game), then a piracy rate of 1% would be equal to about half a million dollars.

That's still an effect of piracy. And if people aren't purchasing a console because they can't pirate on it:

1) Microsoft doesn't lose money selling a console (with a loss of $127) to someone who will never purchase a game.
2) Game companies don't have to worry about their games being ripped and put online early, like the big deal with Halo 2.

Those are two VERY big reasons to keep piracy in check. The harder it is to pirate, the less money is lost on hardware sales to people with no intention to purchase and the more money is made by game companies that don't have to worry about "well, the Xbox version will be raped and pillaged, so maybe we should just make an Xbox 360 version."

I'm not naive enough to think that this will thwart the pirates for a while, but the harder it is to pirate for a console, the less people will do it. And for that, I say to Microsoft hurrah. The Dreamcast showed exactly what can happen when piracy takes almost no skills and no console modification, and the difference between it and a better locked down system are light years.

Of course, Nintendo has the best locked down system of the current generation, and that didn't help them one damn bit.

2 people out of the 22 million Xbox owners hardly disproves my opinion. That's right it's an opinion and it wasn't absolute. Re-read it and you'll see I said generally.

Your essay offers a majority of your opinion as usual and not much else. You say my opinion simply isn't true but you offer little to debunk it.

Your friends had an option to pirate and took it regardless of what they claim. Their continued practice of piracy seems to back up my claim that those who pirate were never going to buy anyway.

[Mayhem]

Obviously I can't speak for all, but I have to say that the majority of people I know who play pirate games rarely buy originals, they just have copied games to their name.

Ergo, they either do it because they don't want to pay, or can't pay for the originals. Whether this accounts for lost sales, who knows, whether they would have bought the game or not.

[Arkaign]

I just hope we eventually see Linux on 360, and non-Microsoft options for the HDD as ghosting seems to render the system unbootable.. must be another part of the anti-hacking measures built right into the PROCESSOR!

[devils advocate]

I don't think it would keep piracy down one way or the other. I'm of the opinion that those who pirate were never going to buy anyway generally.

That's a very bold statement, and one that simply isn't true unfortunately.

If you go and purchase a system, it follows that you will be purchasing something to put into that system. That's simply not the case if you can pirate everything on it. I know a couple people that purchased Xboxes because they absolutely loved Halo and wanted a system to play it on. They got a used system, modded it and have downloaded hundreds of games. They never even purchased Halo itself.

Had they not been able to mod the system, they have both said that they would've got it and Halo for sure. Of course, no one buys a game system for just one game, so eventually they would've got some more. Let's say they get Doom 3 and Halo 2 only. So they have three games. That's a total of six between the two people that I know.

And with the amount of stuff they have downloaded, they would probably have bought more than that.

Regardless, it is a loss of sales for the console. Let's say that they are in the minority for the console -- 1% of people are pirating. And there are, what, 5,000,000 or so Xboxes out there (I really don't know, and since this is an example it doesn't matter the actual number). 1% of that is 50,000 people pirating. If the total gained by Microsoft from the sale of those three games was $9.00 ($3.00 licensing per game), then a piracy rate of 1% would be equal to about half a million dollars.

That's still an effect of piracy. And if people aren't purchasing a console because they can't pirate on it:

1) Microsoft doesn't lose money selling a console (with a loss of $127) to someone who will never purchase a game.
2) Game companies don't have to worry about their games being ripped and put online early, like the big deal with Halo 2.

Those are two VERY big reasons to keep piracy in check. The harder it is to pirate, the less money is lost on hardware sales to people with no intention to purchase and the more money is made by game companies that don't have to worry about "well, the Xbox version will be raped and pillaged, so maybe we should just make an Xbox 360 version."

I'm not naive enough to think that this will thwart the pirates for a while, but the harder it is to pirate for a console, the less people will do it. And for that, I say to Microsoft hurrah. The Dreamcast showed exactly what can happen when piracy takes almost no skills and no console modification, and the difference between it and a better locked down system are light years.

Of course, Nintendo has the best locked down system of the current generation, and that didn't help them one damn bit.

2 people out of the 22 million Xbox owners hardly disproves my opinion. That's right it's an opinion and it wasn't absolute. Re-read it and you'll see I said generally.

Your essay offers a majority of your opinion as usual and not much else. You say my opinion simply isn't true but you offer little to debunk it.

Your friends had an option to pirate and took it regardless of what they claim. Their continued practice of piracy seems to back up my claim that those who pirate were never going to buy anyway.


A guy that I work with used to buy all the Tom Clancy games at the same time I did, at release. After He modded his box, that I recommended to him for emulation, he now "borrows" my copies of the games. Magically finishes them overnight. :hmm:

Theory debunked.

[RCM]

A guy that I work with used to buy all the Tom Clancy games at the same time I did, at release. After He modded his box, that I recommended to him for emulation, he now "borrows" my copies of the games. Magically finishes them overnight.

Theory debunked.

Actually you just backed me up. He modded his Xbox, found out he doesn't have to buy anymore and lost any intention to do so. Once he crossed that line he made a decision not to buy originals anymore. So again he's one who pirates and was not going to buy anyway. Read the statement gents.

[devils advocate]

A guy that I work with used to buy all the Tom Clancy games at the same time I did, at release. After He modded his box, that I recommended to him for emulation, he now "borrows" my copies of the games. Magically finishes them overnight.

Theory debunked.

Actually you just backed me up. He modded his Xbox, found out he doesn't have to buy anymore and lost any intention to do so. Once he crossed that line he made a decision not to buy originals anymore. So again he's one who pirates and was not going to buy anyway. Read the statement gents.

I did read your statement; I don't think you did though.

Your last response makes absolutely no sense. Read it. It is a desperate grasp to back up your theory.

1. My buddy WAS (key word here,) buying games.

2. He NO LONGER buys games (2 key words here).

3. He NOW RIPS games to his hard drive

4. He DID PURCHASE games before.


So, from your statement, he was never planning to purchase any games to begin with, although he did. Therefore since he is not really planning to purchase any games NOW, he really was never planning to buy any to begin with.... Although he did. Make sense?

[RCM]

A guy that I work with used to buy all the Tom Clancy games at the same time I did, at release. After He modded his box, that I recommended to him for emulation, he now "borrows" my copies of the games. Magically finishes them overnight.

Theory debunked.

Actually you just backed me up. He modded his Xbox, found out he doesn't have to buy anymore and lost any intention to do so. Once he crossed that line he made a decision not to buy originals anymore. So again he's one who pirates and was not going to buy anyway. Read the statement gents.

I did read your statement; I don't think you did though.

Your last response makes absolutely no sense. Read it. It is a desperate grasp to back up your theory.

1. My buddy WAS (key word here,) buying games.

2. He NO LONGER buys games (2 key words here).

3. He NOW RIPS games to his hard drive

4. He DID PURCHASE games before.


So, from your statement, he was never planning to purchase any games to begin with, although he did. Therefore since he is not really planning to purchase any games NOW, he really was never planning to buy any to begin with.... Although he did. Make sense?

You obviously don't get it.

[devils advocate]

A guy that I work with used to buy all the Tom Clancy games at the same time I did, at release. After He modded his box, that I recommended to him for emulation, he now "borrows" my copies of the games. Magically finishes them overnight.

Theory debunked.

Actually you just backed me up. He modded his Xbox, found out he doesn't have to buy anymore and lost any intention to do so. Once he crossed that line he made a decision not to buy originals anymore. So again he's one who pirates and was not going to buy anyway. Read the statement gents.

I did read your statement; I don't think you did though.

Your last response makes absolutely no sense. Read it. It is a desperate grasp to back up your theory.

1. My buddy WAS (key word here,) buying games.

2. He NO LONGER buys games (2 key words here).

3. He NOW RIPS games to his hard drive

4. He DID PURCHASE games before.


So, from your statement, he was never planning to purchase any games to begin with, although he did. Therefore since he is not really planning to purchase any games NOW, he really was never planning to buy any to begin with.... Although he did. Make sense?

You obviously don't get it.

Obviously. And after your last post, I seriously doubt anybody else does either.

[RCM]

Some will and some won't. I didn't come up with this concept so there are people that obviously see it as I do. Rather, I see it was they do. Oh well.

[njiska]

A guy that I work with used to buy all the Tom Clancy games at the same time I did, at release. After He modded his box, that I recommended to him for emulation, he now "borrows" my copies of the games. Magically finishes them overnight.

Theory debunked.

Actually you just backed me up. He modded his Xbox, found out he doesn't have to buy anymore and lost any intention to do so. Once he crossed that line he made a decision not to buy originals anymore. So again he's one who pirates and was not going to buy anyway. Read the statement gents.

I did read your statement; I don't think you did though.

Your last response makes absolutely no sense. Read it. It is a desperate grasp to back up your theory.

1. My buddy WAS (key word here,) buying games.

2. He NO LONGER buys games (2 key words here).

3. He NOW RIPS games to his hard drive

4. He DID PURCHASE games before.


So, from your statement, he was never planning to purchase any games to begin with, although he did. Therefore since he is not really planning to purchase any games NOW, he really was never planning to buy any to begin with.... Although he did. Make sense?

You obviously don't get it.

Obviously. And after your last post, I seriously doubt anybody else does either.

As a man who has a Modded Xbox and downloads games (For personal use so it's sketchily legal) i can tell you that i buy a lot less games for my xbox then i play.

If something's good i'll still pay for it, but i like to try things first. That means i'm buying a lot more more Sonic Mega Collections and DOAUs then i am buy Curse of Darknesses.

A mans gonna do what he's gonna do. If they're like me they'll support the industry, if they're a cheap bastard they won't. Besides pircay is for the young not the guys who can afford it.

[Arkaign]

Well, I didn't quite intend this to become a discourse on the piracy situation in general, but I am interested to see what everyone has to say.

Hope the 360 experience is entertaining and satisfying for those who have one. And I hope we do see mods for it, depending on the outcome, I may even change my mind about never getting one.

[s1lence]

I'm going to go back to the original post in that its going to be hard to hack. I've heard that with every system since the dreamcast. It will happen its all a matter of time.

[PapaStu]

Give them time. There will be some exploit somewhere (my very uneducated guess is by using one of the game emulators created to play the XBox games could be used as a backdoor to at least run stuff in some emulated XBox OS) that will eventually bust open wide the whole thing, just like before. They did it on the cube (with its difficult media format) and the PS2 fell both CD and DVD wise (though that one held out a bit longer). The PSP and all the Nintendo Handhelds are feeling its wrath (except for the DS, but again, give them time).

I think just looking at how the hackers have just gone after the PSP and been able to do as much as they have so fast is if nothing else a sign at how they will go after the XBox 360 once they get a little more common in the marketplace.

[njiska]

I'm going to go back to the original post in that its going to be hard to hack. I've heard that with every system since the dreamcast. It will happen its all a matter of time.

It is gonna be tricky though because the bootrom is embedded in the CPU. It'll take more then a simply patch-in through an LPC port with this baby.

Here hoping whoever does keeps good documentation. I'd love to have another book like Bunnie's.

[s1lence]

I'm going to go back to the original post in that its going to be hard to hack. I've heard that with every system since the dreamcast. It will happen its all a matter of time.

It is gonna be tricky though because the bootrom is embedded in the CPU. It'll take more then a simply patch-in through an LPC port with this baby.

Here hoping whoever does keeps good documentation. I'd love to have another book like Bunnie's.

Well considering that MS is making boot discs for original xbox games thats kind of a open door already.