"The Kunkel Report": New Column UPDATE! [Archive]

Cafeman

03-17-2003, 02:51 PM

Man, is Digital Press a great site!!!! You even have the Game Doctor writing stuff now!!!

Hey Doc, I liked Batman Returns a lot too, especially those Sega CD racing levels!!! Nah, j/k of course (but I did enjoy that game), I realize that was the one of those other Batman Returns games. I was not a PC gamer and never saw the version referred to in the article.

You know, I was a huge Batman fan when the first film hit , and I was almost 100% satisfied with it, at the time. But now, I really can't watch any of the Batmans anymore, especially the sequels. It seems that you can see the good ideas, and every one of the Bats films have individually cool scenes, but there are too many stupid things, flaws, in each of the sequels. It almost makes me sick when I think of it. I haven't watched the original 1989 Batman for several years, I'm afraid to rewatch it for fear I won't even like that one in this day and age, and thus I keep it in my memory as a 'good' film.

digitalpress

06-01-2003, 11:57 AM

UPDATE.

Added today is Mr. Kunkel's review of d.b. weiss' "lucky wander boy". More than a review, really. A full analysis. A good chance for you to catch up with Kunkel's latest work AND a new review of this groundbreaking book.

http://www.digitpress.com/columns/thekunkelreport.htm

http://www.digitpress.com/images/luckywanderboy.jpg

zmeston

06-01-2003, 04:55 PM

"And Pennyman's high opinion of 2600 refuse such as Yar's Revenge and Raiders of the Lost Ark is pretty much inexplicable."

HUH?!?!? I'd hardly call either of them (esp. Yars) "2600 refuse".

Has anyone mentioned/noticed a fictional character's snipe at the Classic Gaming Expo in "Lucky Wander Boy"? Page 188:

"'Yeah,' said another guy as he approached us with his cheese-fries belly peeking out from the bottom of his Green Lantern T-shirt, 'a lot of CGers don't see much reason in coming out anymore, except to that mainstream expo in Vegas that was cool when it was World of Atari, but is so weak now. All the newfangled stuff's starting to seep in, and there's media coverage, and you know what that means--'"

"'Van Burnham, J.C. Herz, Zoe Heller--it's all about the big-name chicks now.' Green Lantern #1 chimed in. 'No offense.'"

-- Z.

kingpong

06-03-2003, 12:28 AM

"And Pennyman's high opinion of 2600 refuse such as Yar's Revenge and Raiders of the Lost Ark is pretty much inexplicable."

HUH?!?!? I'd hardly call either of them (esp. Yars) "2600 refuse".

I was quite glad to see Bill's low opinion of Yar's. Yar's Revenge and Adventure are the two 2600 games that have most baffled me over the years when it comes to their popularity. IMO, they are among the worst games for the 2600. Until I started reading r.g.v.c in 1993 I had never met a single person who thought otherwise about those games - each and every person I knew in the early 80s with a 2600 despised those games. Every few months I'll pull out those games to give them a shot, and I always think they're abysmal. At least in the case of Adventure I can place much of the blame on the game being in a useless genre - Yar's is the kind of game I should like, so that's just the game being awful on its own merits (or lack thereof). I'd play Mythicon games for hours on end before I'd play Yar's Revenge.

zmeston

06-03-2003, 01:42 PM

I'd play Mythicon games for hours on end before I'd play Yar's Revenge.

HAHA! Now I'm postive you're just joking!
The interesting thing about the Mythicon games is that you don't have to own all 3. Having 1 is good enough, because they're all the same game :)

I put stock in Bill's opinion for the simple fact that he experienced Raiders and Yars' Revenge at their time of their release, and as a jaded reviewer instead of a wide-eyed kid. He doesn't have 20 years of history or the warm glow of nostalgia clouding his mind.

Or maybe Bill just dislikes Howard Scott Warshaw for ending the Golden Age of Gaming with E.T.

-- Z.

BillKunkel

06-03-2003, 02:43 PM

It's funny, but when I originally included Yars in with Raiders, I suspected I might catch some flak. I didn't expect anyone to support Raiders, but I have been totally baffled for years now regarding the retroactively high opinion many gamers have regarding Yars.

I can indeed testify that when it came out -- especially since it was originally supposed to be the 2600 version of the classic coin-op "Star Castle" -- it was universally loathed. But then, the same thing happens with movies. Some of them flop on release yet build up a coterie of support as nostalgia sets it.

HSW seems like a very nice fellow, but as a 2600 game developer, he is probably my least favorite creator.

As to some of the earlier comments I haven't responded to:

* I'm really sorry about the C64 version of Superman. I know it sucks. But if you can somehow get your hands on the Amiga or Atari version, I think you might be pleasantly surprised.

* As I suspected, nobody every actually played the "Batman Returns" PC game. Phew, what a relief!

* I intended to mention the "shot" at CGE that one of the characters takes in LWB, but of course it isn't really a shot. It's the typical reaction of certain fanboy types against anything that becomes successful. The thinking seems to go like this: If more than 50 people show up, the event must have sold out. So, in actuality, I took it as a signifier that CGE has officially Made It.

Finally, thanks again to everyone who reads -- and especially those who write in about -- my column on this site and my piece on Tetris that I wrote for gooddealgames.com. It's been a real kick to write this stuff, especially now that I'm teaching classes on game design at UNLV and may even wind up working for a game development group for the first time in years (not counting a brief contract stint at Westwood working on the terrible "Earth & Beyond" -- sure to be a column subject itself in the near future itself).

--Bill Kunkel

Kid Ice

06-03-2003, 07:10 PM

I can indeed testify that when it came out -- especially since it was originally supposed to be the 2600 version of the classic coin-op "Star Castle" -- it was universally loathed. But then, the same thing happens with movies. Some of them flop on release yet build up a coterie of support as nostalgia sets it.

--Bill Kunkel

Wow, I'm surprised by that. All my friends loved that game. It was one of those games that EVERYBODY had; a staple like Pitfall or Space Invaders. I wasn't a huge fan of it at the time, I admit, but it has grown on me.

I think a big part of the appeal of that game was that it was an original Atari action game, not an arcade version or a licensed game. I wasn't even aware of the Star Castle thing until a few years ago, and quite frankly, there wasn't a big demand for a home version of Star Castle in my neighborhood.

I don't remember what the word was in EG. The game never won any awards or anything?

ICE

stonic

06-03-2003, 09:37 PM

I put stock in Bill's opinion for the simple fact that he experienced Raiders and Yars' Revenge at their time of their release, and as a jaded reviewer instead of a wide-eyed kid. He doesn't have 20 years of history or the warm glow of nostalgia clouding his mind.

I still play Yars and RotLA on occasion - not because I was 'enamored' by them 20 years ago, but b/c I still find them to be good games. Besides, I seriously question the statement that Yars was "universally loathed". I can't imagine that EG (or any other mag) gave it a bad review at the time. Yars was THE game to have back then amongst everyone I knew, and even now it's still found on most people's top-10 lists. No disrespect to you Bill, but I would easily wager that non-Yars fans are in the minority.

BillKunkel

06-04-2003, 09:12 AM

I can absolutely assure you that neither Yars nor RotLA ever won any awards at EG. The reaction that I remember on Yars was: "THIS is what they did with Star Castle?" Frankly, I think it's Star Castle that is being low-rated; it was an extremely popular coin-op in its day and very popular among the cognescenti. The fact that Atari purchased the Star Castle license (and a coin-op license, at that time, was EXTREMELY valuable, not to mention expensive) and then didn't use it -- "Yar" in fact, was a reference to Atari honcho Ray (spelled backwards) Kasar -- really tells us much of what we need to know about the game.

Yar was mostly hated for its awful graphics -- that ragged multi-color line running down the middle. If I can locate the original EG review, I'll reprint it in a future posting.

As for "Raiders" it simply reprocessed the code from another piece of crap -- the infamous E.T. -- albeit to slightly better effect.

In any case, I probably should've left out my personal hard-ons for those games and stuck with the book, since that was what I was really writing about and there has been virtually no response to LWB itself.

And hey, I never thought I'd live long enough to see people actually defending these late-era 2600 games. Unless I've developed a case of Alzheimers, these games were among the major disappointments of the Atari era. But by now, there are probably readers out there ready to tell me how fantastic the SwordQuest series was. 8-)

Best,
Bill

zmeston

06-04-2003, 10:29 AM

In any case, I probably should've left out my personal hard-ons for those games and stuck with the book, since that was what I was really writing about and there has been virtually no response to LWB itself.

My perception of LWB, alas, is that its prose is simply too challenging for many of its potential readers. Hell, a lot of the gamers I know can't be bothered to thumb through 12-page instruction manuals, let alone sophisticated novels. We live in an era of gaming in which a profane idiot calling himself "Seanbaby" writes for the hobby's most venerable magazine, which sums up the lowered expectations (and abilities?) of current gamer/readers as well as anything.

It also doesn't help that protagonist Pennyman's "Catalogue" descriptions are WAAAAY over the top, as when he calls Pac-Man "the first existential videogame" and compares Pac-Man's appetite to elements of Marxism. That's not deep -- that's just damn silly.

-- Z.

BillKunkel

06-04-2003, 11:06 AM

I agree that Pennyman is over the top, but that's what makes him such a compelling character to me. If he were your typical game fan, who would want to read about him? It's the way Pennyman has neurotically fastened onto these games and transmogrified them into Roar-Shock Tests for his own psyche that kept me reading.

Much of the greatness of the classic games we all love were molded by their technological limitations. This visual simplicity allowed us to fill in the blanks with our own imaginations -- those 2600 games were almost like radio when compared to the TV of today's CGI-candy.

I used to love the Odyssey2 videogames that would feature maybe 10 pages of backstory on an interplanetary war that set up a game comprising a couple of octagons and a bunch of dots.

I think your criticism of the Pac-Man/Marx comments are a little unfair, though. I felt at that point in the review Pennyman was simply reeling off the standard symbolism that has long been discussed with regard to the socio-cultural significance of the game before getting into his own take on the world "behind the glass.".

And while many of Pennyman's reviews are overblown, I think they're more often on-target send-ups of the sort of pseudo-profound essays which have appeared in "cinema" periodicals for decades. You haven't lived until you've read some half-assed intellectual citing the influence of James Joyce on the films of Mario Bava or somesuch exercise in literary masturbation.

Alas, your comments regarding the unwillingness of game players to read are, all too sadly, true. Because whether you like the book or hate it, with the possible exception of "Microserfs", have any mainstream novels even looked at the electronic gaming culture, much less really dug into it? I don't think so.

It's depressing to think that when a book comes along that does brace this subject -- to very favorable critical reviews from the mainstream critics, btw -- we fans of these very games can't bother reading or discussing it.

--Bill

Arcade Antics

06-04-2003, 11:10 AM

But by now, there are probably readers out there ready to tell me how fantastic the SwordQuest series was. 8-)

Nope, no worries there. SwordQuest's pointless, random torture will always be universally loathed. :)

zmeston

06-04-2003, 11:50 AM

Much of the greatness of the classic games we all love were molded by their technological limitations. This visual simplicity allowed us to fill in the blanks with our own imaginations -- those 2600 games were almost like radio when compared to the TV of today's CGI-candy.

My favorite "Catalogue" excerpt in LWB is the Double Dragon entry, in which Pennyman echoes your opinion:

"When we play these games, the sketcky visual detail forces us to fill in the blanks, and in so doing we bind ourselves to the game world. Even more, we participate in its creation, we are a linchpin, a cocreator, crucial to the existence of the game world as it is meant to be experienced. Without our participation the Classic game is nothing, it devolves into exactly what the gloss-junky detractors see--and they see it precisely because they refuse to put forth the mental effort required to round out the vision."

I've never read a better description of the appeal of classic gaming.

And while many of Pennyman's reviews are overblown, I think they're more often on-target send-ups of the sort of pseudo-profound essays which have appeared in "cinema" periodicals for decades. You haven't lived until you've read some half-assed intellectual citing the influence of James Joyce on the films of Mario Bava or somesuch exercise in literary masturbation.

Well, see, now I've revealed myself as an unsophisticated reader. Heh. Knowing that the "Catalogue" entries are satirical makes them infinitely more entertaining. Lines like "It is difficult to ignore the similarities between Donkey Kong (the creature) and the demiurge of the Gnostic heresies" are, when placed into the proper perspective, comedy gold.

It's depressing to think that when a book comes along that does brace this subject -- to very favorable critical reviews from the mainstream critics, btw -- we fans of these very games can't bother reading or discussing it.

It is, however, a thrill for me to discuss this book with my game-journalism hero. (Hell, I'm amazed I made it this far into the thread without sucking up.) I just gave LWB a glowing write-up in an upcoming issue of PSE2, so I'm doing everything in my limited freelance-weasel power to convince gamers to read it.

Perhaps if Seanbaby reviewed the book for EGM and talked about the brief sex scene, sales would take off.

-- Z.

stonic

06-04-2003, 01:47 PM

The reaction that I remember on Yars was: "THIS is what they did with Star Castle?"

Sounds as if your dislike for Yars stems more from the fact that it's simply not Star Castle. I'd have to agree with Warshaw's decision - if a straight port of Star Castle was attempted on the VCS, it would have sucked big-time.

Yar was mostly hated for its awful graphics -- that ragged multi-color line running down the middle. If I can locate the original EG review, I'll reprint it in a future posting.

You of all people should know that good gameplay doesn't depend on good graphics :) "Awful graphics" describes the majority of the VCS catalog! (unless you're a younger gamer, in which case that describes all of them).

As for "Raiders" it simply reprocessed the code from another piece of crap -- the infamous E.T. -- albeit to slightly better effect.

Not true. Raiders was done before E.T. (according to Howard himself), so if anything, E.T. might use some Raiders code (which actually it does, since the Indy character is hidden in the game.) It's possible the code used to play the theme songs in each is very similar.

Btw, here's the link to the HSW interview on DP: http://www.digitpress.com/archives/arc00131.htm

But by now, there are probably readers out there ready to tell me how fantastic the SwordQuest series was.

Maybe....but I'm not one of them! lol

BillKunkel

06-04-2003, 01:57 PM

You of all people should know that good gameplay doesn't depend on good graphics "Awful graphics" describes the majority of the VCS catalog! (unless you're a younger gamer, in which case that describes all of them).

Couldn't disagree more. Everything being relative, there were plenty of 2600 games that had excellent graphics -- for that system. Missile Command, Pitfall, Air-Sea Battle, Kaboom, Barnstormer, Pele Soccer, Freeway, most Imagic titles, and lots of other VCS games had very impressive visuals.

Other games, like Raiders, ET (whichever came first, they definitely shared code), Pac-Man and Yar's Revenge were just pug ugly with no visual appeal whatsoever.

I agree gameplay is the most important element, but aesthetics mattered -- even back then.

--Bill

Kid Ice

06-04-2003, 09:38 PM

Frankly, I think it's Star Castle that is being low-rated; it was an extremely popular coin-op in its day and very popular among the cognescenti. The fact that Atari purchased the Star Castle license (and a coin-op license, at that time, was EXTREMELY valuable, not to mention expensive) and then didn't use it --

Are we talking about the same Star Castle? Don't get me wrong, I really like the game itself (and it is a better game than Yars Revenge), but I don't recall the coin op being "extremely" popular whatsoever. I would consider it a cult classic at best. Say "Defender, Star Castle, Donkey Kong" to someone on the street; the response will likely be "Star what?"

ICE

BillKunkel

06-04-2003, 10:46 PM

Are we talking about the same Star Castle? Don't get me wrong, I really like the game itself (and it is a better game than Yars Revenge), but I don't recall the coin op being "extremely" popular whatsoever. I would consider it a cult classic at best. Say "Defender, Star Castle, Donkey Kong" to someone on the street; the response will likely be "Star what?"

Well, given that we can't go back to 1983 and start conducting interviews outside the Broadway Arcade, we'll never know, right? All I can tell you is that Star Castle played the arcades for an awfully long time, developed an impressive c ult following in that time and among the "cognescenti" -- a word I chose carefully so as not to imply that the game was a commercial phenomenon -- it was quite highly regarded. I know we received a lot of letters at EG wondering if it would ever come out in home format. And few if any readers seemed to realize that Yars was related to SC in any way, which is generally speaking not a good thing when dealing with a coin-op translation.

In fact, the big problem was that, if I remember correctly, SC was a vector graphics games, which made it a major challenge for raster recreation. Or maybe I'm misremembering that.

In any case, I'm not trying to present SC as one of the seminal coin-ops of its era, simply that it was very well regarded -- in particular, other developers were quite fond of it.

As for Yars, what can I say? If you liked it, you liked it; if not, not. That's what makes message boards fun. Tell you the truth, I wasn't much of a fan of Microsurgeon either, but the chapter on that game in "Lucky Wander Boy" is among the strongest material in the book.

And this marks my absolute last comments on either SC or Yars cause I just don't have much more to say on the subject.

*

Btw, on a totally different track, Gamer.TV just sent me a tape copy of the latest production they filmed in the US -- "Around the World in 80 Games". It opens in Las Vegas with me and Vince Desi corrupting the British crew. Then they travel to other cities and talk with other game personalities. If you get a chance to see it, I think you'll find it amusing. The Gamer.TV crew is all class and this was the second time I've worked with them and both times I had a blast. Now I just wish my local cable would pick up G4 so I could see more of this stuff.

--Bill

Phosphor Dot Fossils

06-05-2003, 06:09 PM

Not to completely derail the topic, but doesn't anyone else think it's incalculably cool that Bill Kunkel's hanging out here? Electronic Games and Starlog had a lot to do with my interests and career choices (which probably explains why I don't make any more money than I do LOL ), and I think it's terribly cool that he's hanging out here and writing a column. :)

OK, end hero worship mode. We now return you to your regularly scheduled programming. :D

BillKunkel

06-05-2003, 06:47 PM

Personally, y'all, I think it's incalculably cool that you folks even remember my name, much less enjoy chatting and reading my stuff. I've written in a lot of different fields in my life -- comics, books, newspapers, music, sports, movies -- but the readers who mean the most to me, the folks who I think of as My People are you guys and gals. Whether you enjoy my stuff, think I'm full of crap or think I'm full of crap but entertaining anyway, everybody has been so cool that I always feel completely at home on this site.

And when I realize that so many of you were among the readers who made EG a success -- and incredibly, actrually followed Arnie and Joyce and me as we moved from magazine to magazine and site to site -- I gotta tell you that if I wrote these columns for the rest of my life, I would still owe each of you a debt of personal and sincere gratitude.

Then there's Joe himself, and John and Sean, of course. You all are truly like family to me and my ongoing involvement with CGE has been among the most enjoyable experiences of my life. With a little luck, next year I hope to visit some of the other classic gaming conventions as well.

--Bill

Kid Ice

06-05-2003, 07:58 PM

Not to completely derail the topic, but doesn't anyone else think it's incalculably cool that Bill Kunkel's hanging out here? :D

Absolutely. EG was a huge influence on me.

There's just been an amazing influx of talent into these boards over the last year or so. The cream rises to the top.

ICE

kingpong

06-05-2003, 08:34 PM

And when I realize that so many of you were among the readers who made EG a success -- and incredibly, actrually followed Arnie and Joyce and me as we moved from magazine to magazine and site to site -- I gotta tell you that if I wrote these columns for the rest of my life, I would still owe each of you a debt of personal and sincere gratitude.

I was certainly one of those who followed KKW around, at least in the video game magazines. My few issues of the early EG were read so many times that they are barely intact today. Stumbling onto the first issue of VG&CE was a pleasant surprise, then following to the second rendition of EG and then whatever that one website was. Of course the personal highlight was the Prize Packet I got from you... I think that was over the whole Swordquest Waterworld thing (see, told you it existed). The lowlight was undoubtedly was when my one letter you printed read something like "Hey <Game Doc's name>..." and then shortly thereafter you revealed the Game Doctor's true identity - made me figure that I was the cause. Despite the ups and downs, I always knew that a KKW magazine was going to be a higher quality product than any of the others on the shelf, one written for the people who really understood games.

digitalpress

03-21-2004, 02:43 PM

Our double-fisted weekend of outstanding journalism continues!

Yesterday marked the debut of "Invading Spaces".

Today, a brand new "The Kunkel Report"!

Check out Mr. Kunkel's latest, a reflection on the Consumer Electronics Shows of days gone by. Great read and VERY entertaining pictures!

http://www.digitpress.com/columns/thekunkelreport.htm

Phosphor Dot Fossils

03-22-2004, 10:46 PM

Funny thing is, I believe someone in these very forums actually has the video of that Second City Odyssey skit. X_x

Kid Ice

03-23-2004, 10:07 PM

Cool article! I would have liked some details on the goofy stuff coming out for the 2600 at those early 80s shows though.

digitalpress

07-10-2004, 02:15 PM

Updated today with a truly terrific tale.

Take a step back in time and re-live the "Pick Axe Pete Pick-Off Competition" with Bill Kunkel!

Fans of classic gaming, Pick-Axe Pete or of Mr. Kunkel's work will really enjoy this.

http://www.digitpress.com/columns/thekunkelreport.htm

o2william

07-11-2004, 02:19 AM

Wow, that's... kinda depressing, actually. I seem to remember reading a different article about the '82 World's Fair and Pick-Off from Kunkel and/or Katz and Worley in a magazine. They really weren't impressed by either event. LOL

If anybody's interested, you can download a video clip of local news coverage of the Pick Axe Pete Pick-Off on my web site:
http://www.classicgaming.com/o2home/media/videos.asp

This clip contains a small interview with the winner, Tony Scardino from Weehauken, NJ.

If I'm reading Mr. Kunkel's article correctly, Arnie Katz announced the contest? Could that be him saying "Get ready, get set, get picking!" in the video?

http://www.classicgaming.com/o2home/trade/pickoff.jpg

I don't care how pathetic the contest or the Fair may have been, I still would have loved to be there!

Flack

07-11-2004, 02:44 AM

Wow, that was a great article. I too was at the Knoxville World's Fair in 1982. I remember it being pretty great -- of course, I was 9 at the time.

Like Bill, I don't know what it was that convinced my father that attending the World's Fair would be a fun family vacation. I do remember that it was a big enough deal that my dad actually bought a van just for the trip. He bought it a week before, and sold it a week afterwards.

We weren't the only tourists who made the trip, I can tell you that. By the time we made reservations, the closest hotel to Knoxville we could get was in Gatlinburg, TN (40+ miles away). My most vivid memories of that vacation aren't of the fair at all, but of Pigeon Forge, TN. My dad referred to it as "the sideshow without a circus". There was a Ripley's Museum there, some other wax museum, and a big amusement park that had animatronic dinosaurs, famous monsters that you could pose with, and a big funhouse complete with mirrors and swinging punching bags. As a 9 year old, as far as I was concerned we could have turned around and gone home after that.

The next morning we made the hour long drive in to the fair. Now, the World's Fair was a big deal, and I can tell you the three things I remember about it. One, there was a ten foot tall rotating Rubik's Cube. Two, I saw the Budweiser Clydsdale Horses, and three, it rained -- a lot. I'm sure there was some kick ass food and lots of stuff to see, but that's what I remember.

Oh, and my aunt bought me a puppet.

digitalpress

08-03-2004, 05:36 PM

Bumping this because I want to make sure everyone READS it. This is one of my favorite pieces of the year, a one-of-a-kind account of gaming in its early years by a man who has considerable insight and experience in the field.

Consider this a homework assignment if you're a student of videogaming!

http://www.digitpress.com/columns/thekunkelreport.htm

NoahsMyBro

08-03-2004, 06:03 PM

OK, this thread is getting long and I have to admit I haven't yet read the whole thing (I will, though, promise).

BUT, here's my comments so far -

1) I read EG from issue 1. I even subscribed to it, and had every single issue until I traded them away a couple of years ago for a Vectrex, a Playstation, and a few other odds and ends. I loved that magazine. Bill, thanks.

2) I recall, during a 6th grade trip, visiting Farrell's Ice Cream Parlor in the Houston Galleria with a friend of mine. Within Farrell's there was a Star Castle and a Pac Man, the Pac Man being out of order and turned off. I loved Star Castle and was on it like glue. My friend insisted I go over to the other side of the room and check out Pac Man. "This is the game I've been telling you about! People are lined up every day outside of the waiting to play it - it's great!!!" So I walked over to check it out. The machine was off, but I looked at the artwork and directions on the cabinet, and I thought it was the dumbest looking game I could imagine. Nevertheless, I always loved Star Castle.

And I was definitely a target market for Yar's Revenge. When it came out, I had no idea it was taken from Star Castle. I had no idea what it was. But I played it and loved it. As I recall, ever since Activision made the scene I'd found no good Atari games - everything worthwhile came from Activision. (FWIW, I also thought Imagic games were pretty, but boring.) I thought Yar's was actually a very good, very fun, and very hard game, from Atari! And I thought the graphics were fairly good. That colored band was a pretty cool effect for the time. It had the same cool color cycling thing going as the chalice in Adventure. Also, I recall Yar's being very impressive and well-liked by everybody that tried it. I honestly don't believe this is revisionism, or nostalgia-tempered memories at all.

Now, IMO, Raiders was a very boring game, so I can't really say too much about it.

And finally, Swordquest games were extreme stinkers, and though I intend to I haven't yet bought or read LWB.

PS: A while back rolenta pointed out to me that he'd written one of the letters printed in the first issue of EG -- I've always wondered - how does a person write a letter to the editor [i]in the first issue of a magazine? How would you know what to write, who to write it to, or even that you want to write a letter to them int he first place?

rolenta

08-03-2004, 07:09 PM

A while back rolenta pointed out to me that he'd written one of the letters printed in the first issue of EG -- I've always wondered - how does a person write a letter to the editor in the first issue of a magazine? How would you know what to write, who to write it to, or even that you want to write a letter to them int he first place?

No, I said I was the first fan to have a letter printed in a videogame magazine. The first issue of EG had letters from people in the industry who I guess received an advance copy of the magazine. My letter was the first one in the second issue of EG, the first issue to print letters from the public.

MrRetroGamer

08-04-2004, 09:45 AM

Speaking of letters printed in Electronic Games Magazine, I have a quick story to share. Whenever I read back issues of EG or any of the other old video game mags, I always look at the names of the people who wrote them. Naturally I spotted Leonards letter, as well as a few other folks in subsequent issues who are now prominent in the VG community. I came across one letter in a 1983 issue of EG that turns out was written by a guy who several years later became my roommate in college and is now also a very good friend of mine. I scanned the page with his letter and showed it to him, he said he really didn't remember writing it (20 years ago) but said he did read EG, he did have a Colecovision system like mentioned in the letter, and that was his name and his town so it had to be him. Small world!

Phosphor Dot Fossils

08-04-2004, 06:47 PM

As great as this article is, nothing beats hearing Bill tell this story in person. LOL But it's a close second!

digitalpress

11-29-2004, 12:59 PM

All kinds of updates this weekend, including this new feature column by Bill "The Game Doctor" Kunkel.

A great read, as always. See for yourself!

http://www.digitpress.com/columns/thekunkelreport.htm

Flack

11-29-2004, 01:19 PM

Great article, and very true. It's amazing what "new and amazing features" Electronic Arts (and the rest of them, don't kid yourselves) will use as an excuse to release yet another sports release. Customizable crowds?

Lady Jaye

11-29-2004, 01:21 PM

digitalpress

11-29-2004, 01:22 PM

Customizable crowds?

It's been done. Madden 2005: "Create-a-Fan".

See, this is why you don't work for Electronic Arts. :P

Lady Jaye

11-29-2004, 01:28 PM

And next in the ultra-realistic sports sim: the recent "basketbrawl" opposing players from the Pacers to fans; the last day at the Montreal Expos' home game where everybody (including players like Brad Wilkerson and Brian Schneider) were crying and where there almost were a riot when manager Frank Robinson stopped the game over golf balls (!) thrown on the field; NHL season-long lockout or last year's fatal car crash involving Dany Heatley speeding on a highway...

Where will it end? Will images of the Kobe Bryant trials be included in the next NBA sim?

BillKunkel

11-29-2004, 04:45 PM

Great rant! I'm a sports sim fan (although I don't care much for football games, I do own 3 (three!) baseball games on the GameCube (Acclaim's All-Star Baseball 2001, Sega's Home Run King and EA's MVP Baseball 2004). I do like the sim aspect of those games (I have in mind a recent debate in Nintendo Power about whether today's sports sims could almost be considered as RPGs in light of their current structure), but I sometimes wish they could be simpler.

Yet, something always bothers me: regardless of how realistic they try to make the athletes look like their real counterpart, they still fail miserably. While playing MVP Baseball 2004 as the Montreal Expos, I was shocked when Tomo Ohka appeared... he looked anything but Asian! Visual details pertaining to the stadiums are still not perfect either. Maybe more effort is put into the bigger franchises (Boston, NY Yankees, both Chicago teams, Atlanta...), but the smaller markets' fans have to be content with the flawed representation of their home team's stadium.

Because of that, I sometimes wonder why the game company don't try other ways of making their games instead of aiming for ultra-realism. Cel-shaded portraits of the players may actually be more efficient than the current attempt at CG realism. And this may be why Mario Baseball will probably succeed (just as Mario Tennis and Mario Golf): here we have cartoony, arcade-style games that harks more to the days of the SNES than the current consoles. It's a breath of fresh air in a genre that seems plagued by sameness (who can quickly tell apart ESPN NFL 2K5 and Madden 2005?).

There's a lot of discussion among the state of the art visual people in games and film about the question of reproducing the human face. Because we're all looking at faces all the time, we develop an almost preternatural recognition of how the muscles and tendons in the human face operate. This is why the old "master of disguise" bit as in the "Mission: Impossible" TV show with Landau and Nimoy donning masks that became an actual face were so obviously fake.

Look at the faces in "Polar Express" -- which is about as close as it comes to human realism (tho the latest Warcraft trailer was pretty darn impressive) and it kind of creeps me out (Pixar is much smatrter to keep to animals and cartoonish humans). The imperfect attempts to capture and "paste on" the faces of pro athletes in these games can disturb us on some level because they're such obvious masks.

Oh yeah... You know, I KNEW somebody would think I was making up that bit about "customizable crowds". :)

SoulBlazer

11-29-2004, 06:13 PM

I agree partly with the article, but I think the sports games are getting better. I've been playing Madden for years and watching it get better with each year. 2005 is the best yet. First I complained to friends that it was'nt realistic enough to football, my third love in life next to video games and skiing. Then I complaints that the Pats, my favorite team, are always downplayed so much in the game. Then finally I complained that 'gee, all of this owners mode stuff is great, but players sometimes are unhappy with teams and how they are being used and want to be traded -- why can't we have that in here?" Now, finally, we have that. I'm in love. :D That game has seen some SERIOUS playtime in my XBox this year. And combined with ESPN's NFL 2K5, which is also a very good football game in itself, and I play more video football these days then real one. ;)

Madden games have always gone for as realsitic as possible. If you don't want that, play another football game. I'm hoping next year will expand upon what they have allready started this year, like draft players sometimes holding out for better contracts.

Oh, and Bill, have you played NFL 2K5 much? That game is even MORE nitpicky with what you can do then Madden in! You can customize what your players do each hour of every day in the week BEFORE a game! Now THAT is serious siming. :P

Flack

11-29-2004, 11:34 PM

I'm not sure if the argument is if they're more realistic or not; the argument is, are they more fun or not. Give me 10 Yard Fight or Super Tecmo Bowl anyday.

SoulBlazer

11-30-2004, 12:22 AM

lendelin

11-30-2004, 01:34 AM

The article is well written, but lacks substance. It simply says that "new" insignificant features such as customizable crowds, storymode, and more realistic visuals don't compensate for the lack of innovative gameplay of a yearly rehashed game.

Interesting was the historical outlook of PC sports games; but the fact that their yearly insignificant features of updates occured early on in games wasn't tied to the discussion. Is this old phenomenon a necessity for gameplay, for the identification of gamers with game content in particular for sports games, a mere money making machine, or a criticism that EA should sell updates at lower prices instead of selling updates in new-games-clothing for a whopping $50?

What bothered me was the belittling of the storymode and the more realistic features of players for game design. Are these features indeed so unimportant? and, even more important, aren't they necessarily intertwined? and even more important, can gameplay be so easily separated from realistic features and stories in games?

The more "realistic" game characters became in the last 25 years, the more important stories and character development became for identification of the player with game content. This tendency is unavoidable. If you can recognize a person in a game, you can connect to and identify with it. Instead of putting this development in the broader context of how to incorporate stories into gameplay, and with it discussing one of THE most important challenges of game designers today, the article brushes over it as unimportant features.

It is remarkable that we have stories in the meantime even in sports games like football and racers and extreme sports, sometimes badly made and a fad, but nevertheless an important indicator that traditional separation lines of genres become increasingly blurred.

From a game design standpoint, visuals, their "realism," sound, stories ARE gameplay and should not be separated from game mechanics defined as the interactivity between a gamer and the game via a controller. We play by pushing buttons, and we play with it graphics, sound, and very important, the story. Always, no matter what. That goes even for a Pong.

If the intend of the article was to show that EAs many yearly sports titles represent only a couple of inches in progress of game development, I agree. This is obvious compared to games two or three years in development. I wouldn't call the features insignificant, though, just subdivided in very small portions compared to a regular development time.

I wouldn't also call gamers "foolish" because they buy these games. I give them the benefit of the doubt that they very well recognize that the new features aren't a giant step forward in gameplay; but the fact that they still buy these games maybe an indicator that Bill Kunkel underestimates the fuction of realistic visuals and stories for something very important in games which every game developer goes for: the identification of the gamer with game content.

Although I disagree, the article was (like always) a great and interesting read.

Flack

11-30-2004, 09:56 AM

Well, it's simple to me. The more realistic, the more fun. :D The tons of playing time that Madden (and NCAA and NFL 2K5) are getting are proof of that. But then, I'm a serious sports fan -- I prefer serious sports games, and understand that's not everyone's cup of tea. I'm the same with sims and RPG's.

You're right, different strokes for different folks. NFL Blitz, along with the aforementioned 10 Yard Fight and TECMO Bowl, are my favorites.

TheRedEye

11-30-2004, 12:59 PM

Whoa, The Game Doctor teaches at UNLV? I live across the street, Bill, let's get a beer sometime!

BillKunkel

11-30-2004, 02:42 PM

I agree partly with the article, but I think the sports games are getting better. I've been playing Madden for years and watching it get better with each year. 2005 is the best yet.

Oh, and Bill, have you played NFL 2K5 much? That game is even MORE nitpicky with what you can do then Madden in! You can customize what your players do each hour of every day in the week BEFORE a game! Now THAT is serious siming. :P

BILL: My problem isn't so much with the features as with the fact that users are compelled to swallow them. Okay, you want to do a new version every year with features such as player effects generated by biorhythms, astrology and/or numerology. I have no problem with that, but suppose I was happy with last year's version, why not offer me the option of buying either this year's model or simply plugging the new stats into the existing game?

Haven't played NFL 2K5, but of course that is a perfect example of more DETAIL leading to less REALISM. Doesn't realism end at the point where the player's skills and weaknesses are reflected in the gameplay as dictated by stats and performance-based ratings? I also like to think that the human game players should be largely bound by the limitations of what a real NFL GM/Coach/Owner can do. Surely that power ends long before I can induce Eli Manning to smoke a blunt before heading out to get mauled by the Eagles.

My point is that this current paradigm forces the designers to work around the introduction of new features, no matter how ridiculous, unnecessary or irrelevant into each year's game.

Question: is it possible to simply take the previous year's Madden game, update the stats yourself and introduce rookies, giving them the face and body of a similar-looking player?

BillKunkel

11-30-2004, 02:49 PM

Whoa, The Game Doctor teaches at UNLV? I live across the street, Bill, let's get a beer sometime!

Yeah, been living here in Vegas since '89 and will probably be teaching at UNLV again next spring (if I haven't moved to Canada by then). Of course, sometimes they assign me to the main building and sometimes I use the old campus at Trop & Swenson. I'll definitely mention on the board whenever the next classes get going and maybe us Vegas-based Forum folk can do the socializing thang.

TheRedEye

11-30-2004, 05:25 PM

BillKunkel

12-14-2004, 07:44 PM

Now comes word that the NFL has signed an EXCLUSIVE deal with EA to allow use of NFL players, stadiums, logos, etc. Tough luck, fans of ESPN Football (and it's lower price point) and Take Two.

Anyone who thinks EA isn't simply attempting to pre-empt an entire category of sports game is really oblivious (they could even own the exclusive rights to electronic fantasy leagues based on the news story I read. EA included "manager games" among those it has exclusive rights on.).

Why would the NFLPA go for this, taking one pay-off instead of several?

SoulBlazer

12-14-2004, 09:25 PM

BillKunkel

09-17-2005, 01:36 AM

Exactly. Blame the NFL as much as EA. I don't hate EA for what they did, although I'm worried about it. Rumor has it that the NFL offered this contract to several companies and EA paid the most. Any company in EA's place would do the same thing.

Absolutely correct. In fact, it was the greed of the leagues and player associations that have kept game publishers from offering team and statistical updates to the previous editions in many cases.

The addition of things like career modes and such have been brilliant. But when you MUST fix something that isn't necessarily broken or you don't get paid, well, the results have been some of the most ludicrous add-on features in the history of gaming.

Personally, I don't care how accurate a player's post-TD celebration dance is; how accurate the "skin" on an almost totally padded and helmeted football player is; whether a ballplayer accurately scratches his groin or whether the players' biorhythms will give them an edge or a handicap. But the designers have to. In fact, major breakthroughs have been few and far between and a new version every three years or so would be fine for most games, but that's just not the world we live in any more.

As to "realism". To me, the most obvious example of a more realistic feature leading to a less realistic and entertaining game are fights in hockey. Even if you manage to generate a fighting engine that isn't as awful as they usually are, how exactly does one integrate the result of that fight into the game, especially when they're almost always coincidental penalties and nobody loses a man off the ice? Oh sure, you could try to lure the best players into a fight to get them into the sin bin, but if the game is TRULY realistic, that high-priced player not only won't fight back (he's invariably got at least one thug on the line with him to serve as bodyguard), but neither will a player from the other team attack him. How many players tried to take out Wayne Gretzky when he was the guy that put asses in the seats and built up the payroll for everybody?

It's just interesting to me that even the mainstream journalists are getting hip to this scam and the fact that the guilt should be shared, at least.

lendelin

09-17-2005, 02:12 AM

[As to "realism". To me, the most obvious example of a more realistic feature leading to a less realistic and entertaining game are fights in hockey.

I don't get that. Games are never realistic, intentionally or unintentionally. "Realism" as a mimesis are never achieved in games, even in a games like GT 3 and 4. Realism in every entertainment product are terribly boring and wouldn't be successful. No documentary, no poem, no novel, sculpture or song is 'realistic'; they are all transformed reality to achieve an enetertainment factor or get a message across.

Dumb little mini-games in realistic clothing can be entertaining; it has nothing to do with realism.

I'd be glad if ridiculuos inconsistencies of plot, stories and gameplay in games got more attention. Realism isn't an issue for game development.

kingpong

09-17-2005, 11:52 AM

Realism is a huge issue for game development. If one aspect of the game becomes more realistic, it makes far more apparent the lapses in realism in other aspects of the game.

My favorite example is Daytona USA. It was a hugely popular game in the arcades, but I think you have to either be an idiot, or just not very discerning when it comes to quality, to enjoy that game. Though the graphics look antiquated today, they provided a sufficiently compelling environment that you could believe it was to be a quality NASCAR-ish driving experience. If they could achieve that level of realism with the graphics, your expectation is then of a similar level of realism across the board. That's where the game fails miserably, as the physics model is completely absurd. Superspeedway racing in NASCAR does not involve downshifting in the turn to do a powerslide, bouncing off the walls intentionally, etc. That sort of gameplay was completely inappropriate for the graphic environment it was in, which ruined the game. Had the game presented a less realistic visual environment, one would probably let the gameplay faults slide, as it would have been a more consistent level of reality and quality. Had the game been set on dirt roads through the countryside but the gameplay was the same, it would have been a more consistent level of realism. Since the level of realism in the graphics did not correspond to the level of realism in the gameplay, one is unable to maintain suspension of disbelief, and from a critical standpoint one must consider the game a failure.

Despite these flaws, the game was a huge hit. It was a hit because it was fun, and apparently most people could overlook the disparate levels of realism. Take that in the opposite direction and you're back to the other problem with realism - real life is usually boring. If Daytona had been a realistic racing simulator, it probably would have flopped.

The end result is a Catch-22 situation. As games become more realistic in any aspect, they need to become more realistic in all aspects to prevent lapses in the level of realism from being magnified, or else the overall perceived quality of the game suffers. If you make all aspects of the game equally realistic, you run the risk of sucking the fun out of the game. So when developing a game that has parallels in the real world, how does a developer balance the need to maintain a consistent level of realism without compromising the entertainment value of the game? This problem only gets worse as technology improves and expectations of realism increase.

Kid Ice

09-17-2005, 12:20 PM

My favorite example is Daytona USA. It was a hugely popular game in the arcades, but I think you have to either be an idiot, or just not very discerning when it comes to quality, to enjoy that game.

I'm pretty discerning when it comes to quality racing games, so I guess I'm in that "idiot" camp. :) I still think Daytona is one of the best racing games ever made. However, I do agree that some racers fail because they can't make up their mind to be an arcade racer or a sim. I just don't think Daytona is one of them...it's arcade all the way, even if the graphics are nice.

stonic

08-22-2011, 01:03 PM

In my effort to scan all the issues of Electronic Games magazine, I recalled this conversation from years ago and wanted to add some relevant info.

EG reviewed Yars' Revenge in the October 1982 issue (pages 62-63). It doesn't say who wrote it, but it was either Arnie Katz or Bill Kunkel. The review describes Yars' as "a potential blockbuster that misses greatness by an eyelash", and goes on to say the "sound is excellent and the graphics are quite acceptable". The only critique? "The game only has one objective that must be repeated indefinitely." :? Doesn't that describe some 95% of the games back then? Yep, it sure does. No mention of the game's "horrible graphics" there, so Bill's comments from a few years ago certainly didn't reflect EG's opinion of it.

As for being "universally loathed", the readers poll in the October 1982 issue has it as 6th with no prior placing, but a news blurb on page 13 mentions this is Yars' first appearance on the list, and that it would have placed 14th the month before if the list took into account the first 15 games and not the first 10 (this was mentioned in the September issue as well). The November 1982 poll listing again has it in 6th place, but with no prior placing (?). Putting the Oct 82 and Nov 82 lists together reveals they're identical - EG simply reprinted the Oct 82 results in the Nov 82 issue. The December 82 readers poll has it 9th and mentions it place 14th the issue before, which is of course incorrect. So for at least 4 months, EG readers had this game in the top-15 best games.

As a final note, the January 83 issue has the Arcade Awards article. Best sf/fantasy game? VCS Defender. Certificate of Merits (2nd, 3rd, and 4th places) went to Space Jockey, Encounter at L-5, and Threshold - 3 games that feature one simple objective that is repeated forever, except w/o any sort of ending whatsoever (unlike say, Yars' Revenge). So, according to EG, Atari's best-selling original game couldn't compare to those? Space Jockey and Encounter at L-5 are mindless, simplistic drivel. Threshold is a decent shooter with some variety, but considering Demon Attack was voted "Game of the Year', it doesn't compare and should never had nominated for anybody's awards list. Those last 3 certainly didn't make any EG Readers Polls that I've seen.

Unless I've developed a case of Alzheimers, these games were among the major disappointments of the Atari era. But by now, there are probably readers out there ready to tell me how fantastic the SwordQuest series was.

Actually, SwordQuest EarthWorld was given a Certificate of Merit (or honorable mention) in EG's 1983 Arcade Awards for Best Adventure Game (Jan 1983 issue, page 28). :roll: Pitfall and Riddle of the Sphinx were the other 2 games. Imagine that.