The Killer Apps that could've saved a system

[evildead2099]

List some Killer App games that, based on their inherent strength and drawing power, could've saved a system (or kept it alive significantly longer).

Here are some that coem to mind:

Dreamcast: Messiah (This very fine PC game would've been great for the DC, as was originally planned....)

Saturn: That 3D Sonic title that Sega worked on.

32X: Castlevania (I've heard rumors that Konami intended to port Akumajou Dracula X: Chi No Rondo to the 32X, and photos printed in Gamepro magazine hinted at that possibility)

Dreamcast: Castlevania: Resurrection (Unless it turned out like any of Konami's other 3D Castlevania games, based on the review that I've read of them)

NES: Hellraiser (A Wolfenstein 3D-powered FPS on an 8-bit system!)

Nintendo 64: A worthy sequel to Mario 64.

[kentuckyfried]

It's not a killer app, but the M2 might have saved the 3do.

And before anyone argues with me, I said 'might have'.


M2 press release (http://www.gamezero.com/team-0/whats_new/past/m2-press.html)

[Snapple]

When someone says "system that needed a killer ap," it takes my brain about .00001 seconds to say "Saturn" and "Sonic Xtreme."

[shoes23]

Half-Life could have prolonged the life of the Dreamcast IMO. From what I hear it was ready to be pressed and sent out, but sadly was cancelled.

[retroman]

some games..........That might have saved the Jaguar

[exit]

32X: Castlevania (I've heard rumors that Konami intended to port Akumajou Dracula X: Chi No Rondo to the 32X, and photos printed in Gamepro magazine hinted at that possibility)

Now they don't seen to even want to re-release it. Which doesn't make sense because it's one of the most wanted games in the series. I hope they do a re-make for the DS, or even a release of a Castlevania collection.

[Skyway_Recreation]

at shoes23, what are you talking about? i own a copy of half life for DC, it came out.

[evildead2099]

at shoes23, what are you talking about? i own a copy of half life for DC, it came out.

You don't own a legit copy, then. If you bought a copy thinking it was legit, you were duped and actually picked up a bootleg.

[GetImOliver]

SMS - Michael Jackson's Moonwalker 2

[evildead2099]

SMS - Michael Jackson's Moonwalker 2

Was Sega ever serious about making a sequel to Moonwalker?

[nik]

NES - Earthbound, River City Ransom II, Super Dodgeball II.

Nuff said, it'd be here until 2050!

[Ed Oscuro]

32X: Castlevania (I've heard rumors that Konami intended to port Akumajou Dracula X: Chi No Rondo to the 32X, and photos printed in Gamepro magazine hinted at that possibility)
Thanks for bringing up two Castlevania games!

This was not a port of Dracula X. It had a dark-haired Alucard and...well, I don't know anything else, really. Nobody does. It appars that development for this was coming up with some of the ideas and graphics that were to be seen eventually on the PlayStation console. Somebody should ask Igarashi about this one.


Dreamcast: Castlevania: Resurrection (Unless it turned out like any of Konami's other 3D Castlevania games, based on the review that I've read of them)
Was being made by a US team. Looked pretty fantastic, actually, except for the stupid giant snakes screenshot, and some of the other stuff wasn't so nice.

The plot - time-travelling vampire killers - would've made Iga choke, St. Germain notwithstanding. For those that care about the series' plot, this and Castlevania Legends seem to have been working on a wholly different timeline that would've seen, among other things, Dracula being a forefather of the Belmont lineage. Sorta turns things into a soap opera, some say.


NES: Hellraiser (A Wolfenstein 3D-powered FPS on an 8-bit system!)
Not just Wolf 3D (I'm not actually sure it used the Wolf 3D engine, did it?), but it would've had a custom chip! That would've been NICE.


Nintendo 64: A worthy sequel to Mario 64.
Frankly, Mario 64 did so well because it was the first platformer, and because it was a pure platformer. Yeah, sounds like I'm bashing it, which would be hypocritical given that I've lumped praise on it. But consider what games you're discounting offhand: Both Zelda titles. Sure, they aren't Mario. Thank goodness!

[Gamemaster_ca_2003]

True Fantasy Live Online Could have Defintly Saved the XBOX In Japan.

[goatdan]

Half-Life could have prolonged the life of the Dreamcast IMO. From what I hear it was ready to be pressed and sent out, but sadly was cancelled.

Actually, Half Life for the Dreamcast was pressed and waiting to be distributed when it was cancelled and all of the discs produced for it were destroyed, literally days before it was supposed to be released.

I got the strategy guide that was released like a week before it was supposed to come out, before even that company knew it was canned.


some games..........That might have saved the Jaguar

Actually, I really think the VR unit would've saved the Jaguar. From having played one personally, it is nothing short of amazing and if it came in under Atari / Virtuality's announced price point of $200, it would've been absolutely amazing.

That's the VR unit the magazines declared was running off a hidden computer somewhere because it was too good for Jaguar technology to run, of course.

[evildead2099]

Nintendo 64: A worthy sequel to Mario 64.
Frankly, Mario 64 did so well because it was the first platformer, and because it was a pure platformer. Yeah, sounds like I'm bashing it, which would be hypocritical given that I've lumped praise on it. But consider what games you're discounting offhand: Both Zelda titles. Sure, they aren't Mario. Thank goodness!

Perhaps you're right, especially given the fact that a 3D Zelda game came out so far toward the end of the N64's lifespan.

[Ed Oscuro]

True Fantasy Live Online Could have Defintly Saved the XBOX In Japan.
Nah, the MMO space was already packed. Game-starved Xbox owners would've snapped it up, I'm sure, but that wouldn't have been enough to turn the console around. Anybody's guess whether the experiment would've paid handsomely, though.

[classicb]

sometimes it doesn't matter even if the killer app does come out.

Rifts just came out for the N-Gage and even though its probably one of the best portable games out this year it still can't save the N-Gage as most people have given up on the system some time ago.

Credit to Nokia though for sticking it out and rewarding the diehards with a truely amazing game.

[Ed Oscuro]

Time to get me an N-Gage, eh? :)

[CosmicMonkey]

Yeah, killer app or not, some systems will still fail.

Mega CD - Ok, so realistically this system did have killer apps: Sonic CD, Final Fight CD and both Lunar games. Had enough decent games been released between Sonic and Lunar, the system may have stood a chance. But people really weren't that interested in spending a few hundered quid/bucks on a system with only a very few good games and too many crap FMV games or MD re-releases. It's sickening looking at all the unreleased games for the Mega CD that could have helped the system:
Castlevania IV
Thunder Force IV CD
Contra Spirits
Indiana Jones and the Fate of Atlantis
Captain Commando
Myst (this and Indy were fully complete, ready to press too)
Etc, etc.....
Add to this all the Sega arcade games that should have got converted, plus Streets of Rage/Bare Knuckle CD and the system would be overflowing with good games. Hopefully making it (nearly) as essential as a CD drive for the PCEngine.

Saturn - Again, a system with amazing games. Virtua Fighter 3 and VirtuaFighter RPG/Akira's Quest/Saturn Shenmue would have come too late in the machine's life to save it, by then the world wanted Playstation. And even Sonic Xtreme couldn't have saved things.

Dreamcast - Due to the power of Sony, another Sega machine destined to fail. DC has amazing games but the world wanted a PS2 and it's mystical, magical, fairydust-powered 'Emotion Engine'. Even though the DC's launch line-up was amazing, and SoulCalibur still looks better than most PS2 games. Half-Life and Propeller Arena are indeed killer apps, but still not enough to save a system. Add to this Take the Bullet, Thunder Force VI, Geist Force and several other unreleased games that would have been absolute class.

What it all boils down to is pathetic in-fighting between SoA and SoJ, causing the complete mess that spanned right from the release of the Mega CD, through to 32X, Saturn and even the Dreamcast. Add to that Sony showing the world how to market a console properly, and all the best games in the world couldn't have saved Sega.

[Ed Oscuro]

It's sickening looking at all the unreleased games for the Mega CD that could have helped the system:
[snips]
Castlevania IV
Contra Spirits
These were both SNES/SFC games, so this seems unlikely. However, I have never heard of either of these ports, but Contra Spirits was planned at one time...for the N64. Have a source on that? If that's true, I hail you as a king of research!

[Skyway_Recreation]

um dude, how in the fuck did i get a retail copy of halflife for DC? i don't remeber where i got it from, but i have it, not CD-R, but GD-ROM. ok, im extremley confused. i never thought it was rare. so it got pressed but most got destroyed? i think i got it in the trade with my extra DC. NOW I FEEL SPECIAL! lol

[Griking]

at shoes23, what are you talking about? i own a copy of half life for DC, it came out.

Where did you buy your copy? Was it online or in a retail store?

Take a picture of it, the game, jewelcase and inserts and post pictures for us please.

[Skyway_Recreation]

got it in a trade, just GDROM with plain case no instructions. it's NOT A CD-R i burn DC iso's all the time so i know what's up.

[Skyway_Recreation]

also didn't know it was ever cancalled, Ebay even has the UPC and release date in their game database. makes me wonder where my copy came from?

[howdoin]

some games..........That might have saved the Jaguar

If Rayman had been released has planned (i.e. exclusive Jaguar for some time) it might have helped.

Demolition Man, Return to Zork, Deadalus Encounter, Varuna Forces, Tiny Toons, Highlander part2 and 3, AVP 2... are also rumoured titles that come to mind.

[goatdan]

um dude, how in the fuck did i get a retail copy of halflife for DC? i don't remeber where i got it from, but i have it, not CD-R, but GD-ROM. ok, im extremley confused. i never thought it was rare. so it got pressed but most got destroyed? i think i got it in the trade with my extra DC. NOW I FEEL SPECIAL! lol

Nothing personal, but there is no way that you got it on GD-ROM. The discs were entirely destroyed. Supposedly, there are like five copies that were sent as previews to the company that still exist as printed proofs, although these have never been confirmed to exist. The people that had those would not be selling it.

That's it. You have a nice pirated copy of the game that you purchased from someone who stole it, unlike your other pirated games that you just stole.

[goatdan]

also didn't know it was ever cancalled, Ebay even has the UPC and release date in their game database. makes me wonder where my copy came from?

That's because the copies of the game that were produced weren't destroyed until either April 27th or April 30th, less than a week before the game was supposed to be released. A UPC code is gotten well in advance, and a release date is set.

Sorry, you've warezed another game.

[evildead2099]

DC has amazing games but the world wanted a PS2 and it's mystical, magical, fairydust-powered 'Emotion Engine'.

LOL Well put!

[Skyway_Recreation]

meh. i busted it out, and i guess you are rite. it has a mighty nice label and silver bottom. but didn't have the ring in the middle that says sega. as for the warezing i dl games i KNOW i will never get. i do it for my sega saturn too. im sorry but im an 18 year old that works as a dishwasher and can't afford to buy a 120 dollar copy of radient silver gun. i saved my ass off to get a famicom disk for that much. and goat, last game game i got was border down for DC. the last game i really bought for the dc was feet of fury, sorry if it bugs you to dl games which are a pain in the ass to find. half the games i dl came out when i was 14 and poorer than i am now. if i had an amazing job, i'd buy real games. Geez. ALSO the jaguar was a lost cause. but it didn't stop me from buying one at EB 2 years ago for 20! sad that EB got bought out by gamestop. doesn't that make them a monopoly? :hmm:

[sabre2922]

Sonic X-treme: as stated by a few others it wouldnt have saved the Saturn but if it had been released in a timely fashion and if freaking Sega had put more priority on it namely Sega of Japan it would have extended the systems life by at least a year or so.

[NE146]

If Tempest, Super Pacman/Jr. Pacman, Stargate, Millipede, Asteroids, & Blaster had come out for the 5200... oh man :D

[goatdan]

meh. i busted it out, and i guess you are rite. it has a mighty nice label and silver bottom. but didn't have the ring in the middle that says sega. as for the warezing i dl games i KNOW i will never get. i do it for my sega saturn too. im sorry but im an 18 year old that works as a dishwasher and can't afford to buy a 120 dollar copy of radient silver gun. i saved my ass off to get a famicom disk for that much. and goat, last game game i got was border down for DC. the last game i really bought for the dc was feet of fury, sorry if it bugs you to dl games which are a pain in the ass to find. half the games i dl came out when i was 14 and poorer than i am now. if i had an amazing job, i'd buy real games. Geez. ALSO the jaguar was a lost cause. but it didn't stop me from buying one at EB 2 years ago for 20! sad that EB got bought out by gamestop. doesn't that make them a monopoly? :hmm:

Okay, the first point -- I'm not very removed from being an 18 year old myself. And I worked as a dishwasher when I was. At Chuck E Cheese. For ten cents above minimum wage.

But you know what? I didn't use that as an excuse to pirate games. I don't need Radiant Silvergun. And if I did, I would save up the extra money I could scrape together to get it.

What actually doesn't bother me about what you're doing though isn't the fact that you're pirating games. You know what? I work in an office with a bunch of college students who are working for low wages, and who can't afford Radiant Silvergun either. And you know what, a bunch of them have bought Dreamcasts -- from me -- because they know they can download games for it easily. And you know what? I'm okay with this. Why?

1) They don't brag about it online. Comments like this: "i burn DC iso's all the time so i know what's up." are not cool. If you feel that you are so poor that you must steal games to get them -- and you should admit to yourself that you are, really, stealing the games to get them -- then you should not be bragging about it online. As I said in a different thread, I've had collectors brag to me that they downloaded copies of the games that GOAT Store Publishing has done... it's extremely not cool. You don't know who is on these boards, and yes... it is a touchy subject.

2) They actually purchase games that they find that they really like. Most of them have very little money, but if they find a game that they really like, they'll purchase it because they all feel that they use their downloading as a "test," basically. Every time Rush 2049 has come into EB Games for the last year, someone from my office seems to snatch it up. The same has gone for other games too.

I'm sorry if it bugs you that I have called you out for pirating, but on a board as high profile as this one, I don't think I would be out proclaiming how good you are at pirating games, especially newer games like Border Down that have come out relatively recently.

[Ze_ro]

Wait a minute here... are we restricting ourselves to games that were actually in the works but were never released? Or can we basically just mention anything at all, regardless of any basis in reality?

If we're just talking anything at all, then how about Grand Theft Auto 3 for the Dreamcast? How about Final Fantasy 7 for the N64?

If we have to consider reality here, then my #1 system saver would have been a 3D Pokemon RPG for the N64... I still don't know why Nintendo never did this, as it would have sold millions of systems for them. Hell, Pokemon XD should have come out MUCH earlier in the Gamecube's life span, and it might have made a difference for it. All these Pokemon Stadium and other dumb spinoffs just wasted their time.

Mario 128 on the Gamecube. I liked Mario Sunshine myself, but a real successor to Mario 64 released a couple of years back for the Gamecube might have turned the tide.

I'd like to say there were game that could have kept the Jaguar afloat, but I think it was just doomed from the start. I know Mortal Kombat 3 was in the works, which certainly would have helped... Battlesphere and Skyhammer would have really made an impact if either had been released when the Jaguar was still commercial. Some RPG's other than Towers II would really have helped the system too

How about if Konami had brought Dracula X to the TurboGrafx-16? By that point in time, the death spiral was probably already too far to save the system, but a quick translation could have proved very successful here.

Or even getting a little off-topic, if Snatcher had received a wider release, it might have really helped out the SegaCD... and english translation of the ports available for other systems certainly wouldn't hurt.

As for the Dreamcast, although it was probably a little late in it's life to really make a difference, I really wish Sega had brought Shenmue II, Rez, and Headhunter to North America. And I still don't understand why Fighting Vipers 2 never got a North American release. Lastly, I hate to say it, but if EA had been aboard, the Dreamcast might have had a better chance... even though Sega was making better sports games anyways.

Super Mario's Wacky Worlds on the CD-i certainly would have been a hit... the prototype is certainly very promising. Although I doubt Nintendo would have allowed them to release it even if it had been finished.

--Zero

[Push Upstairs]

I always thought the Sega CD would have done far better if they had released more games like "Final Fight CD".

Breaks my heart to think of all the games they could have brought to the CD format with some awesome arranged/full symphony versions of songs.

Instead it was wasted on FMV games and fluffy make my video crap.

[goatdan]

Wait a minute here... are we restricting ourselves to games that were actually in the works but were never released? Or can we basically just mention anything at all, regardless of any basis in reality?

If we're just talking anything at all, then how about Grand Theft Auto 3 for the Dreamcast? How about Final Fantasy 7 for the N64?

I mentioned this in another thread, but it bears repeating...

Grand Theft Auto 3 was originally supposed to be a Dreamcast exclusive, but when the system started going down in flames, R* stated that "it wasn't powerful enough" so they switched development to the PS2.

You can look it up online and you'll find some articles about it.


As for the Dreamcast, although it was probably a little late in it's life to really make a difference, I really wish Sega had brought Shenmue II, Rez, and Headhunter to North America. And I still don't understand why Fighting Vipers 2 never got a North American release. Lastly, I hate to say it, but if EA had been aboard, the Dreamcast might have had a better chance... even though Sega was making better sports games anyways.

Both Shenmue II and Headhunter would have been decent hits, but both Fighting Vipers 2 and Rez would've only filled the niche markets that the Dreamcast already filled, and in my opinion not really kept it alive much longer.

[CYRiX]

Half-Life could have prolonged the life of the Dreamcast IMO. From what I hear it was ready to be pressed and sent out, but sadly was cancelled.
The release on the pirate scene makes me really pissed it never was published.

[Zadoc]

32X: Sonic Crackers, Descent, Castelvania

Saturn: Sonic X-treme, Tomb Raider II, Legacy of Kain

[evildead2099]

Wait a minute here... are we restricting ourselves to games that were actually in the works but were never released? Or can we basically just mention anything at all, regardless of any basis in reality?

Thanks for raising that question. I intended this discussion to concern 'killer apps' that were in development, or were at least seriously believed to be in development based on press announcements (i.e. Streets of Rage 4, Splatterhouse 4, etc).

I didn't want this topic to concern games that were never ever planned for a given system, and hence could not be considered potential killer apps in the sense that the notion of them coming out on a given console was never seriously planned (MJ's Moonwalker 2?!?).

[evildead2099]

I hate to say it, but if EA had been aboard, the Dreamcast might have had a better chance... even though Sega was making better sports games anyways

I agree with you in both respects.

... But, having owned copies of Rez for the DC and PS2, I can say that the game is not something that the masses would've likely supported in grand figures.

[TheRedEye]

The day a Color Dreams title "saves" a system is the day I get out of this hobby entirely.

[Blur2040]

The day a Color Dreams title "saves" a system is the day I get out of this hobby entirely.

What? You don't have fond memories of going to the toy store and seing all of the latest Color Dreams releases right up front, just waiting to be purchased by eager consumers? :D

Anyhoo, it's very rare that a single game can keep a system afloat ::coughhalocough::

[evildead2099]

The day a Color Dreams title "saves" a system is the day I get out of this hobby entirely.

LOL

Hellraiser's engine was supposed to be a modification of that used in id Software's Wolfenstein 3D, though.

If Hellraiser played at least as well as Wolf 3D, I think it could've prolonged the life of the NES to some degree.

(... Assuming that Colour Dreams had some decent level designers on hand to pick up the slack where id Software's Wolf 3D engine left off)

[Famidrive-16]

What was the name of that shooter N64 game in Japan again, where you moved with the C buttons? That would've been a good way to finish the 64 in the US.

[fishsandwich]

What was the name of that shooter N64 game in Japan again, where you moved with the C buttons? That would've been a good way to finish the 64 in the US.

Are you speaking of the greatness that is Sin & Punishment? That is one fantastic game.

The N64 was actually a huge moneymaker for Nintendo... it had several killer apps.

Sin & Punishment was supoosed to have a USA release... I read about it in Gamer's Republic (an interview with Treasure.) The Japanese game has English voiceovers and is a very easy import. If memory serves, it ultiizes buttons to move around.

:D

[CosmicMonkey]

It's sickening looking at all the unreleased games for the Mega CD that could have helped the system:
[snips]
Castlevania IV
Contra Spirits
These were both SNES/SFC games, so this seems unlikely. However, I have never heard of either of these ports, but Contra Spirits was planned at one time...for the N64. Have a source on that? If that's true, I hail you as a king of research!

I got this info from the SegaBase Sega CD game list (http://www.eidolons-inn.net/segabase/SegaBase-SegaCDGames.html). However, many of those games mentioned don't show-up on other unreleased game list for the Mega CD.

One unreleased title that has popped up is Dennin Aleste 2. Not a system saving killer app, but it certainly would have been a very good shmup.

As for the N64, it had some very, very good games. But the lack of CD drive made it a wasted opportunity.

[Daltone]

What was the name of that shooter N64 game in Japan again, where you moved with the C buttons? That would've been a good way to finish the 64 in the US.

Bangai-O? Or am I miles off here?

[Jorpho]

32X: Sonic Crackers

And how would "Sonic Crackers" have ended up any different from Knuckles Chaotix?

[Push Upstairs]

I thought "Sonic Crackers" was just a "testing ground" for what eventually became "Knuckles Chaotix".

[Damon Plus]

A GTA3, and a 99 and 2000 versions of Madden and Fifa for USA and Europe respectively sure would´ve saved the Dreamcast, as sad as it is to accept it.

Think about it, it would´ve been the best version of the games, as PS2 was more than a year away.

[drewbrim]

[quote="Ze_ro"]Wait a minute here... are we restricting ourselves to games that were actually in the works but were never released? Or can we basically just mention anything at all, regardless of any basis in reality?

If we're just talking anything at all, then how about Grand Theft Auto 3 for the Dreamcast? How about Final Fantasy 7 for the N64?

I was just going to bring this up since FF7 WAS in development for the N64.

Would've helped the system quite nicely I believe, and maybe even turned the tide and beat out the playstation. You laugh but the system with the most/best rpg's has won every console war.

NES over SMS
SNES over Genesis
PS1 over N64 and Saturn
PS2 over Dreamcast and Xbox

Some might argue the SNES vs Genesis debate but I'm pretty sure the SNES outsold Sega that round. But at any rate the reason it was close was because the Genny had so many bomb rpg's to compete with the SNES classics.

[Jorpho]

I was just going to bring this up since FF7 WAS in development for the N64.

No. The record has been set straight on this.
http://www.lostlevels.org/200510

[goatdan]

You laugh but the system with the most/best rpg's has won every console war.

But you can take that argument and apply it to just about any genre. The system that won was the system that sold the most games and stayed on the longest. I'm sure that when all is said and done, the PS2 will have more sports games than the Xbox too.

And considering how much most RPGs sell, especially pre-Final Fantasy VII RPGs that aren't made by Squaresoft, I can pretty much tell you that this is simply not correct. RPGs may be system sellers, but they sell a relatively low number of copies, compared to Madden or Grand Theft Auto or whatever. The reason so many RPGs get so expensive down the line is that not so many people purchase them in the beginning.

Final Fantasy VII, whether it was in development for the PS1 or not, would not have been the N64's saving grace. Maybe Metal Gear Solid. Maybe Resident Evil. But not FFVII, especially with how downgraded it would have to be.

[Ed Oscuro]

It's sickening looking at all the unreleased games for the Mega CD that could have helped the system:
[snips]
Castlevania IV
Contra Spirits
These were both SNES/SFC games, so this seems unlikely. However, I have never heard of either of these ports, but Contra Spirits was planned at one time...for the N64. Have a source on that? If that's true, I hail you as a king of research!
I got this info from the SegaBase Sega CD game list (http://www.eidolons-inn.net/segabase/SegaBase-SegaCDGames.html). However, many of those games mentioned don't show-up on other unreleased game list for the Mega CD.
Interesting. I don't see how Konami would've ported those, but I guess it might have been possible (but with uglier color, and great music. Oh man, CD-quality oldschool Contra tracks, nice!).

[drewbrim]

I was just going to bring this up since FF7 WAS in development for the N64.

No. The record has been set straight on this.
http://www.lostlevels.org/200510

Very cool. And amazingly enough that is the same Game Fan mag I picked up yesterday in a whole lot of free stuff previously mentioned in the "weekday finds" thread. I'm glad you posted that link Jorpho, when I looked at that magazine yesterday that was the first I had heard of it.


But you can take that argument and apply it to just about any genre. The system that won was the system that sold the most games and stayed on the longest. I'm sure that when all is said and done, the PS2 will have more sports games than the Xbox too.

And considering how much most RPGs sell, especially pre-Final Fantasy VII RPGs that aren't made by Squaresoft, I can pretty much tell you that this is simply not correct. RPGs may be system sellers, but they sell a relatively low number of copies, compared to Madden or Grand Theft Auto or whatever. The reason so many RPGs get so expensive down the line is that not so many people purchase them in the beginning.

Final Fantasy VII, whether it was in development for the PS1 or not, would not have been the N64's saving grace. Maybe Metal Gear Solid. Maybe Resident Evil. But not FFVII, especially with how downgraded it would have to be.

I think I didn't explain myself well enough. I didn't mean to suggest that the games themselves win the wars, it's the owners of those games. Meaning the rpg's are the games that make the decision of which system Player X will buy, just like you mentioned, system sellers. Player X can get sports, platforms, fighters, shooters, etc... anywhere, and usually in equal amounts. Let's say Player X and Player Y both like Square published games and they both like EA sports titles. Now maybe Player X swears by the FF series, and maybe Player Y prefers Kingdom Hearts and Front Mission games (which is the reason why an rpg could never sell as well as a sports title, rpg lovers are a picky group. Whereas football is football is football.). Now even though Player X could care less about Kingdom Hearts 2 and Player Y won't be grabbing Final Fantasy XII, they both couldn't wait to buy Madden 06. And the reason they're buying it on the PS2 is because of Square. Just my two cents

I hear what you're saying about Metal Gear and Resident Evil, both great games/series. But they would hardly be a reason to win a console war. Hell Resident Evil (or some form of it) in addition to being released on the Playstation was released for the Saturn, N64, and Dreamcast. Plus it would obvioulsy take more than one series to save a sysetm since the big N still has exclusive rights to the biggest "killer apps" in the world. But even Zelda, Mario, DK, etc.. couldn't save the N64 or Cube.

[Bluteg]

No offense drewbrim but most of the annual Madden gamers are not likely to purchase Kingdom Hearts OR Final Fantasy XII.

[goatdan]

I think I didn't explain myself well enough. I didn't mean to suggest that the games themselves win the wars, it's the owners of those games. Meaning the rpg's are the games that make the decision of which system Player X will buy, just like you mentioned, system sellers. Player X can get sports, platforms, fighters, shooters, etc... anywhere, and usually in equal amounts. Let's say Player X and Player Y both like Square published games and they both like EA sports titles. Now maybe Player X swears by the FF series, and maybe Player Y prefers Kingdom Hearts and Front Mission games (which is the reason why an rpg could never sell as well as a sports title, rpg lovers are a picky group. Whereas football is football is football.). Now even though Player X could care less about Kingdom Hearts 2 and Player Y won't be grabbing Final Fantasy XII, they both couldn't wait to buy Madden 06. And the reason they're buying it on the PS2 is because of Square. Just my two cents

I hear what you're saying about Metal Gear and Resident Evil, both great games/series. But they would hardly be a reason to win a console war. Hell Resident Evil (or some form of it) in addition to being released on the Playstation was released for the Saturn, N64, and Dreamcast. Plus it would obvioulsy take more than one series to save a sysetm since the big N still has exclusive rights to the biggest "killer apps" in the world. But even Zelda, Mario, DK, etc.. couldn't save the N64 or Cube.

I don't really know what to quote, so I'm just quoting it all, but I'm sort of only responding to part of it...

Anyway, from all sales indications, this just does follow. A lot of RPGs are not "casual gamers" games. The Final Fantasy series was the first series to really go mainstream in the US. Before that point, the only RPG that went pretty mainstream was Dragon Warrior for the NES. Beyond that, try to name any good, common RPGs for any pre-PS1 system.

I know a lot of people who are big RPG fans, and they like to try as much as possible in the RPG genre. Never have I seen someone say, "I am getting a PS2 because Final Fantasy is on it, and I don't play any RPGs but Final Fantasy."

The NES was anchored by a ton of great series -- Castlevania, Mega Man, Mario, Metroid and Zelda all spring to mind. The SNES really broke out with Super Mario World and then Donkey Kong Country. I would give the nod too these far-reaching games as being the most important for their developers over any RPG from that time, easily.

[jonnyutah]

folks, not even shenmue 3, could save the the Dc! mainstream gamers want unoriginal rehash games, that's why they buy ps2 and xbox for the latest and greeatest LOL

[towerofsong]

Doom could of saved the Amiga, if it was possible at the time.

[Jorpho]

You think Doom alone would have made the populace abandon their PCs and buy Amigas? Circa 1993? (It certainly didn't sell any NeXT boxes.)

[TheRedEye]

folks, not even shenmue 3, could save the the Dc! mainstream gamers want unoriginal rehash games, that's why they buy ps2 and xbox for the latest and greeatest LOL

Not even the sequel to the game series that lost Sega millions of dollars could have saved the dying system!

[Ed Oscuro]

You think Doom alone would have made the populace abandon their PCs and buy Amigas? Circa 1993? (It certainly didn't sell any NeXT boxes.)
To be fair, the Amiga cost a bit less than a NeXt box, even back then.

[GarrettCRW]

(which is the reason why an rpg could never sell as well as a sports title, rpg lovers are a picky group. Whereas football is football is football.).

Wrong. The people who play football games are a damn picky lot. After all, how many people do you know who buy Gameday year after year (the NFL deal aside)? How about Sega's earliest first-party football games? The basic fact is that many of you can't grasp why the fans of sports games want updated rosters or other such cursory updates. (Granted, EA sucks at the latter, but that's why they essentially forced Sega and Visual Concepts out of the market.) They may not mine the depths of the gaming universe like we do, but many sports-oriented gamers are picky as hell, and quite intelligent.

[evildead2099]

Doom could of saved the Amiga, if it was possible at the time.

Yeah, and Half-Life 2 could've saved the Virtual Boy (if it was possible at the time)

...

And Red Faction could've saved the Atari 2600..


Be realistic :P

[drewbrim]

Anyway, from all sales indications, this just does follow. A lot of RPGs are not "casual gamers" games. The Final Fantasy series was the first series to really go mainstream in the US. Before that point, the only RPG that went pretty mainstream was Dragon Warrior for the NES. Beyond that, try to name any good, common RPGs for any pre-PS1 system.

Dungeons and Dragons
Ultima
Phantasy Star
Shining Force
Lunar
Zelda (if you count that)
Super Mario RPG
Lufia
Breath of Fire

How common or mainstream these are can be debated, but they all apparently sold well enough to release a sequel(s) in the states.


I know a lot of people who are big RPG fans, and they like to try as much as possible in the RPG genre. Never have I seen someone say, "I am getting a PS2 because Final Fantasy is on it, and I don't play any RPGs but Final Fantasy."

Maybe it's just my friends but I know plenty of people with that line of thinking. They eagerly await the next Final Fantasy as much as the next _______(insert newest EA sports title here), and they aren't even aware that square develops any other games beside final fantasy. And even though they prefer the sports games on the Xbox, they all have PS2's instead just for the FF series. I bet there are plenty here on the board that feel the same way. Now many of us have a PS2, Xbox, and Game Cube. But if you could only afford one, and someone made you choose, what would you base that decision on? Price, game library, quality/durability, etc... For me personally Square-Enix tips the scales in the "game library" category. So if everything is (perceived) equal then you could say I chose a PS2 because of Square.

[goatdan]

Anyway, from all sales indications, this just does follow. A lot of RPGs are not "casual gamers" games. The Final Fantasy series was the first series to really go mainstream in the US. Before that point, the only RPG that went pretty mainstream was Dragon Warrior for the NES. Beyond that, try to name any good, common RPGs for any pre-PS1 system.

Dungeons and Dragons
Ultima
Phantasy Star
Shining Force
Lunar
Zelda (if you count that)
Super Mario RPG
Lufia
Breath of Fire

How common or mainstream these are can be debated, but they all apparently sold well enough to release a sequel(s) in the states.

None of those games were common or mainstream except Zelda, which in my opinion wouldn't count. That's why they all demand such high prices still to this day.


Maybe it's just my friends but I know plenty of people with that line of thinking. They eagerly await the next Final Fantasy as much as the next _______(insert newest EA sports title here), and they aren't even aware that square develops any other games beside final fantasy. And even though they prefer the sports games on the Xbox, they all have PS2's instead just for the FF series. I bet there are plenty here on the board that feel the same way. Now many of us have a PS2, Xbox, and Game Cube. But if you could only afford one, and someone made you choose, what would you base that decision on? Price, game library, quality/durability, etc... For me personally Square-Enix tips the scales in the "game library" category. So if everything is (perceived) equal then you could say I chose a PS2 because of Square.

What you said originally though was that RPG gamers *only* will play one series in general. I have a friend who ADORES the Lunar series and doesn't so much care for the Final Fantasy series. But he still tries out lots of different RPGs because he likes the genre. He's done Earthbound, the Paper Marios, Dragon Warriors, Skies of Arcadia, Grandia I and II, and so on. While where the next Lunar goes might help to tip his scales, it isn't the ONLY game that he will play.

[Ed Oscuro]

Dungeons and Dragons
Ultima
Phantasy Star
None of those games were common or mainstream except Zelda, which in my opinion wouldn't count. That's why they all demand such high prices still to this day.
All three titles I've left in were as mainstream as you could get: Ultima and the AD&D games were huge on PCs back in the late 80s, and Phantasy Star in all its incarnations sold pretty well on SMS/Genesis. I can't say that Ultima games are as common as Zelda titles, but they're not that far off, either - and I've found a copy of Ultima III at a local thrift, but not any Zelda games.

[goatdan]

Dungeons and Dragons
Ultima
Phantasy Star
None of those games were common or mainstream except Zelda, which in my opinion wouldn't count. That's why they all demand such high prices still to this day.
All three titles I've left in were as mainstream as you could get: Ultima and the AD&D games were huge on PCs back in the late 80s, and Phantasy Star in all its incarnations sold pretty well on SMS/Genesis. I can't say that Ultima games are as common as Zelda titles, but they're not that far off, either - and I've found a copy of Ultima III at a local thrift, but not any Zelda games.

But PC gamers and console gamers, especially at that point in time, were two completely different breeds of gamers. The PC gamers loved the RPGs while consoles tended to go arcade / action more.

I agree with that you're saying (except for Phantasy Star), but I just think it was different for the different platforms.

[diskoboy]

I'd hafta say, even though it was released everywhere else, the US never got the Dreamcast version of Rez .

That game could've been used to show the DC could've held it's own against the PS2 juggernaut if shown side-by-side. Rez looks and plays great on the DC.

Instead, Sega makes yet another idiotic decision. I was really looking forward to buying this game for the DC. then it was given to Sony.

[evildead2099]

I'd hafta say, even though it was released everywhere else, the US never got the Dreamcast version of Rez .

That game could've been used to show the DC could've held it's own against the PS2 juggernaut if shown side-by-side. Rez looks and plays great on the DC.

Instead, Sega makes yet another idiotic decision. I was really looking forward to buying this game for the DC. then it was given to Sony.

I hate to break it to you, but most players wouldn't care. Rez's aesthetic isn't likely appease the gaming masses who make Madden the big name in video gaming that it is :/

You know its sad but true :(

[idrougge]

Anyway, from all sales indications, this just does follow. A lot of RPGs are not "casual gamers" games. The Final Fantasy series was the first series to really go mainstream in the US. Before that point, the only RPG that went pretty mainstream was Dragon Warrior for the NES. Beyond that, try to name any good, common RPGs for any pre-PS1 system.

Dungeons and Dragons
Ultima
Phantasy Star
Shining Force
Lunar
Zelda (if you count that)
Super Mario RPG
Lufia
Breath of Fire

How common or mainstream these are can be debated, but they all apparently sold well enough to release a sequel(s) in the states.

None of those games were common or mainstream except Zelda, which in my opinion wouldn't count. That's why they all demand such high prices still to this day.

Let's turn the argument around:
Phantasy star sells for a lot these days due to the fact that after the Japanese RPG breakthrough with FFVII, demand for that game has become higher than for other Mastersystem titles.

[idrougge]

You think Doom alone would have made the populace abandon their PCs and buy Amigas? Circa 1993? (It certainly didn't sell any NeXT boxes.)

The gaming populace didn't have PCs in 1993. At least not in Europe.

[Jorpho]

You think Doom alone would have made the populace abandon their PCs and buy Amigas? Circa 1993? (It certainly didn't sell any NeXT boxes.)

The gaming populace didn't have PCs in 1993. At least not in Europe.

Then what did they have that wasn't Amiga?

[CartCollector]

Commodore 64s, of course. Or at least Speccys. (Well, during the 80s. Forgot we were talking early 90s.)

[Jorpho]

So if Doom was released for the Amiga in 1993, it would have prevented people from abandonning the Amiga and buying C64s and Speccys instead?

[Jared_Vibelicious]

TTi was offered an exclusive for Mortal Kombat on the TG-16 / Duo. They turned them down and what a mistake it was. Imagine if they had taken that offer, it would have given them a MAJOR advantage over the SNES and Genesis.