Used game business is out of control and will kill our hobby

[Anthony1]

I was going to post this in the "used game sales = piracy?" thread, but I didn't want to hijack dudes thread. My topic has nothing to do with piracy, so I didn't want to get people off topic in that one.


Anyways, I just wanted to comment on the sub-industry that has sprung up with the buying and selling of used games and hardware. It's really starting to get out of freaking control. Every retailer that is even remotely connected with video games is either trying to start their own trade in and resell business, or already has. Blockbuster, GameCrazy, GameStop, EBgames, Software ETC, Best Buy and on and on. Businesses that never would have dared considered getting into the business of buying used games from their customers and reselling them are now making plans to enter the market.


Why?


Because the profit margins are off the charts. That's why. Unfortunately, the great unwashed don't really take into consideration what their games and systems are really worth, so they accept pennies on the dollar in terms of trade in values. People just find it easy and convienent to walk into a GameStop with a handfull of used games, and trade those in towards a discount of the latest new game to hit the scenes.


The thing is......I think in the long term, this is going to absolutely kill our industry. You can already see what this is doing to the prices of new games for current gen systems. Very few PS2 and XBOX 1 games are going to retail with a $49.99 price. Only the biggest franchises can get away with asking for $49.99 per game. And the ones that do command $49.99 per game, only do for a short period of time. There are so many bargain basement games out there, that it's causing everybody to have to lower their prices prematurely. I really think that this is byproduct of the used game trade. There are so many used games available in the marketplace, that consumers don't need to buy brand new games for the big bucks anymore. Little Johnny is just as happy playing a used version of Jak III as he would a brand new one. The kid just wants to play the damn game, and the parent just wants to get it as cheap as possible.


Used isn't a bad word anymore. How many kids received "preowned" video games as Xmas gifts this season? Probably more than at any other time in History. It used to be a very embarrasing thing to buy somebody a used game, but now when little Timmy rips open the package and finds a "preowned" version of Mario Kart Double Dash, little Timmy doesn't care. It says Blockbuster on it, and yes, it's a a used game, but it's now normal to receive something like that as a gift.


In the old days, people bought their games for $49.99 each (or more), and these people just ended up keeping these games for a very long time. People had libraries of games for various systems. They never sold them, or traded them in. Why? Cause they never really thought about it. But now, they can't help but think about it. It's everywhere. Everywhere they go they see places giving money or store credit for used games or DVD's. So now, you have people that no longer have more than a few games in their library of games, and those few games won't be there long. Soon they will be traded in for virtually nothing, and the cycle will continue.



All of this is great for the "cheap ass gamer" that just wants to get their hands on whatever game for cheap. Take me for instance. I just bought Halo 2 from blockbuster for $6.99. I repeat..... I just bought Halo 2 from blockbuster for $6.99!!!!! Can you freaking believe that? Sure, it's a preowned copy, but at that price who gives a rats ass? But the problem is, that while this might be very nice for gamers out there in the short term (more games for less money), in the long term, the effects that this is going to have on every facet of our industry is going to be catastrophic. While I'm extremely happy to be able to get games like Halo 2 for $6.99, I know that the long term ramifications of this is very bad for an industry that I love.


Sony was talking awhile back about having games that would "marry" to a single video game system. Thus, not working on anybody elses system, therefore, you couldn't rent the game, or sell it to somebody else. Each person that wants to play the game, would have to buy it from a retail establishment. I was among the people that cried bloody murder when I first heard about this idea from Sony, but to be totally honest, this kind of tactic might actually save our industry in the long term. It would be very painfull to consumers in the short term, but in the long term it would actually help our industry and keep our industry vibrant. It would ensure the future of our industry.

I know that alot of you are going to say, "Dude, you lost me when you brought up that Sony thing. There is no circumstance where that would actually help our indsutry", but it's about the only thing that could turn the tide of this used game trade that is going to decimate all of the smaller publishers and developers. If you only want to be able to pick from games that are released from about 10 different Mega publishers, then by all means, let the used game trade continue like normal. But I can guarantee you one thing. Games like Psyconauts and Shadow of the Colossus will never be seen again. Instead you will be playing Tony Hawk 25 - The Baltic Wastelands

[Leo_A]

"The thing is......I think in the long term, this is going to absolutely kill our industry. You can already see what this is doing to the prices of new games for current gen systems. Very few PS2 and XBOX 1 games are going to retail with a $49.99 price."

Quite a few games are still being released at a 50$ price point. And its common for games released near the end of a systems life to not be 50$. And many of the games not being released at 50$ wouldn't of been released at that price a few years ago anyways because they're small time budget releases.

". There are so many bargain basement games out there, that it's causing everybody to have to lower their prices prematurely."

Prove it

"Little Johnny is just as happy playing a used version of Jak III as he would a brand new one. The kid just wants to play the damn game, and the parent just wants to get it as cheap as possible."

No different than 25 years ago than today.

" but now when little Timmy rips open the package and finds a "preowned" version of Mario Kart Double Dash, little Timmy doesn't care. It says Blockbuster on it, and yes, it's a a used game, but it's now normal to receive something like that as a gift."

Who cares, I got the exact thing for a gift this year and was pleased because I got the demo disc and it didn't cost 50$ for a game that should've saw a price reduction a long time ago in my opinion.

"In the old days, people bought their games for $49.99 each (or more), and these people just ended up keeping these games for a very long time. People had libraries of games for various systems. They never sold them, or traded them in. Why?"

Nonesense, people have been trading in their systems and games after fairly short amounts since the beginning. It's just been the past decade that this has entered the retail environment thanks to companies like EB, Funcoland, GameStop, etc.

"Sony was talking awhile back about having games that would "marry" to a single video game system. Thus, not working on anybody elses system, therefore, you couldn't rent the game, or sell it to somebody else. "

Prove it, only people that like to speculate like yourself ever saw that from what I witnessed. Sony filed a patent, and then people like yourself decided Sony must've meant that.

"but it's about the only thing that could turn the tide of this used game trade that is going to decimate all of the smaller publishers and developers."

Nonesense, the industry is as healthy as its ever been. Slower sales can be easily explained as people waiting for next generation consoles, has happened at the end of every generation. If anything is going to hurt them, it's the increased cost of development due to the power of these systems today.

"But I can guarantee you one thing. Games like Psyconauts and Shadow of the Colossus will never be seen again. "

As long as theres a market for them (As has been proven I'd say judging from sales of Shadow of the Colossus for starters), I guarantee we'll see the likes of them again.

Typical gloom and doom non RGB Anthony1 post. :)

[ozyr]

I'll have to aggree with Leo. I don't really don't see used games hurting anything. Heck, used furnature hasn't ruined the new furnature stores, video rentals don't stop people from buying new (I do this).

Of course, I am open enough to respect your opinion, and tha that is fine. Just don't try being so 'pushy' about it...

[Mayhem]

The key issue is that people trading in games (and hence stocking the "used" section in stores) usually do it because they can't afford to spend money on new games otherwise. Cut out being able to trade in games = lower new games sales or increase piracy.

Which is the other factor going over the heads of the publishers. The same applies to the DVD and CD industries. People pirating media doesn't mean they would have gone and bought it if they couldn't pirate it, so it can't all equate to "lost sales".

Game stores are pushing the used game sales so much because it is only one of two profitable lines they are now left with (the other being selling third party accessories). They make piss all margin on hardware and new game sales because of the prices being sold to them by the manufacturers and publishers. Maybe if this was cut and game prices reduced, it might see slightly less proliferation of used or reduce prices.

[Sniderman]

Your theory is, to put it mildly, nonsense. Used game stores have been around since the days of the Atari 2600. Garage sales, thrift stores, etc. have been buying and selling used video games forever. I've heard the same theories about eBay and everytime one of those Flashback, all-in-ones are released. Our hobby is just fine and will continue to be fine.

[davidleeroth]

I think sticking to a price point of $49.99 for a new game, when you can have Halo 2 for $6.99, would be killing the industry if anything.

[zerohero]

There is some truth to what he was saying. Japan has acknowledged the problem over there as well. I think what has happened is that the price of gaming might not have increased huge percentage wise compared to previous generations, but other due to other expenses in life, people have to think about saving money at all cost now more than ever.

100 games at a $50 price tag are released. Only 50 people "half" buy it at that price, and then sell it back used for store credit. Now the "used" game is $25 bucks and the other "50" people that didn't buy the game now buy the used copy. Now think about that for a moment , and you will see what the original poster was talking about.

[goatdan]

I bought my car used. I wonder if Ford wishes that they could've made it explode when the original owner sold it, as the ex-owner sold it to the dealer for pennies on the dollar and Ford made nothing because of it.

I wonder how many dealers couldn't sell ZX2's because people were trying to save a little money and buy them used.

I think that the video game industry is headed in the same direction as the auto industry, and we all know that practically no one can afford to make or sell cars anymore because the used market is just so vast.

[Griking]

I agree with Anthony1 about this. While I don't think that used games are going to kill the industry I truely believe that it definately hurts it. As Anthony1 said, stores push the used copies because of the higher profit margin and since game developers don't make a penny when a used game changes hands it only makes sense that they the sale of used games hurts their bottom line. The same can be said about rentals. Didn't Japan at one time outlaw either the sale of used games or the rental of games for this very reason?

[Dangerboy]

I agree with Anthony1 about this. While I don't think that used games are going to kill the industry I truely believe that it definitely hurts it. As Anthony1 said, stores push the used copies because of the higher profit margin and since game developers don't make a penny when a used game changes hands it only makes sense that they the sale of used games hurts their bottom line. The same can be said about rentals. Didn't Japan at one time outlaw either the sale of used games or the rental of games for this very reason?

If you remove rentals, you will remove half the purhcasing population who like to "try before they buy".

As a retail clerk, I could have retired if I had a $1 for every customer who asked "What's your return policy if I don't like it?"

If game companies (and I'm not naming them all per se, just the whiny ones) are so whiny about used game sales, how about just shutting the duck up and maybe, I dunno, actually make great games that last longer than the time it takes to drive to and from the store? Or even better, actual creativity? THat way people could be more confident in spending $50 on a plastic platter rather than say...saving it or spending it on something else (Like 5 used $10 games)

[Ulticron]

It's all about the laws of supply and demand.

First off if someone at gamestop/GS clone tries to sell me a used game when I want a new game I let them know I want the new version. Some games you gotta have new. If I see an RPG I want it new just because. So far I haven't been given any gruff about the deal, after all there is walmart/kmart/target across the street and they sell nothing but new games, then there's internet vendors if I can't find it at the 3 big marts.

Now for supply and demand. Video games are in high demand right now period. The way I see things our hobby isn't dying it's actually growing. Yes some ppl are buying used games, and no the publisher isn't seeing a dime off of it. However on the flip side of things new games are still being sold, there are still quite a few places that sell nothing but new games, and there are ppl that want new games or no games at all. I pick and choose, sometimes I want it new, sometimes I don't care. Companies aren't going to fold up and die off simply because of the sale of used games. However it might very well cut down the number of crap titles produced on a system simply because they don't have the huge budget to waste on them.

[Mayhem]

I agree with Anthony1 about this. While I don't think that used games are going to kill the industry I truely believe that it definitely hurts it.

And as I mentioned above, take away used game sales and you hurt new game sales anyhow because people can't sell their old games to be able to afford new games.

So which hurts the least I wonder...?

[GrandAmChandler]

Let me state that this has very little warrant. Does this hurt sales? sure. Does it really matter? No. Look at Madden, how many freaking copies did they sell last year? Or GTA: San Andreas? And then the RE-RELEASE of San Andreas flew off the shelves.



I almost always buy used. It's cheaper. As long as it's in good shape, I really don't care. The only time I buy new games is during a clearance sale (Circuit City / TRU) or something that I MUST have (Mario Kart DS, Animal Crossing DS, etc.)



Publishers will still continue to make games. There will be no market crash. If Sony stupidly decides to "marry" games to consoles, it will fail. If that ever happens, I will convert back to PC gaming, and stick to my OLD SKOOL systems.

</long rant with many page breaks>

[XianXi]

Fortunatley for us Blockbuster Gamerush's prices are not based on ebay or market prices but instead from rental usage. I bought several games way below market price. This is how I got 7 copies of MvC2 for PS2, they were only selling them for $12 when market was $50-60.

In all actuallty this helps collectors more since most people dont collect games, they just want new games. So they go into a store and trade in their old games to get new ones, what's the problem there?

What pisses me off is gamestop like to charge prices close to new prices for used new games. When I wanted to pick up Dynasty Warriors 5, they had a new one for $39.99 and the used one was $37.99, how many people actually want to save just $2 instead of just buying the new one?

[FantasiaWHT]

"100 games at a $50 price tag are released. Only 50 people "half" buy it at that price, and then sell it back used for store credit. Now the "used" game is $25 bucks and the other "50" people that didn't buy the game now buy the used copy. Now think about that for a moment , and you will see what the original poster was talking about"

Want to make an analogy here...

Only 40% of clothing sells at full retail value. Markdowns happen fairly quickly and most people won't pay $40 for a shirt that will be $28 in several weeks, or $6 at the end of the season.

Does the fact that an item can be bought for 20% or less of the original cost at a later time stop everyone from buying at the high price? No, and obviously enough people still buy at full retail for stores to justify keeping the initial price that high.

There is such a demand to play a game RIGHT AWAY when it comes out, and such a lag in used stock becoming widely available at a significant discount that brand new games will continue to sell well at the initial price point.

[XianXi]

"100 games at a $50 price tag are released. Only 50 people "half" buy it at that price, and then sell it back used for store credit. Now the "used" game is $25 bucks and the other "50" people that didn't buy the game now buy the used copy. Now think about that for a moment , and you will see what the original poster was talking about"


You're forgetting that the retailer already bought the games from the supplier so those are already considered sold to the manufacturer.

[s1lence]

I think the automotive view that was mentioned is the way the industry is going. Its not going to kill it in the least. Its the same with buying used CD's or used toys. I guess maybe

I look at it this way, used videogames aren't some new concept in the least. The only difference is the development cost is going up so the industry is pissing and moaning because they aren't making as much money as they could, kinda like the RIAA pisses and moans.

Now what could "kill" videogaming is the over abundence of crap games that are being pumped out like quarter-pounders.

[FantasiaWHT]

You're forgetting that the retailer already bought the games from the supplier so those are already considered sold to the manufacturer.

I'm not positive how that related to my point, but I think you're forgetting that the retailers have a deal that they can "sell" their games back for a preset amount if they do not sell very well.

[crazyjackcsa]

Do you mean our hobby of Gaming or our hobby of Classic gaming? I think it only helps out hobby of classic gaming. Most of the collecting I do is for previous generations or for the games I missed out of the beginning of this generation all of which are used. There are far worse things in this world affecting our hobby than the growth of the used market.

[XianXi]

You're forgetting that the retailer already bought the games from the supplier so those are already considered sold to the manufacturer.

I'm not positive how that related to my point, but I think you're forgetting that the retailers have a deal that they can "sell" their games back for a preset amount if they do not sell very well.

If you didn't understand my post you will never understand retail.

Video game sales are based off of what the manufacturer has sold not how much the stores have sold.

[Damion]

The price raise in Next-gen games was because of share holder demand (at least for AAA titles) and even if that was not true. Curtailing or even stopping sales of used games will not stop the raise in prices that we are now seeing.


(only read first post this could have been said already)

[Anthony1]

Leo Ames said:

Quite a few games are still being released at a 50$ price point. And its common for games released near the end of a systems life to not be 50$. And many of the games not being released at 50$ wouldn't of been released at that price a few years ago anyways because they're small time budget releases.

Anthony1's response:

Well, were I live, new big time games do still come out at $49.99, but very few stick at that price for very long. Only the Resident Evil 4's and things like that can stick to the $49.99 price for an extended period. As for the games that are deliberately priced at $19.99, I'm not talking about those games. I'm talking about games that come out at $49.99 and then a month later I see them in a Fry's Electronics ad for $24.99.
---------------------------------------------------------------

Anthony1 said:

". There are so many bargain basement games out there, that it's causing everybody to have to lower their prices prematurely."

Leo Ames said:

Prove it

Anthony1's response:

Prove it? Just go to any Circuit City or Walmart or Target or whatever, and you will see that very few games stick at the $49.99 price for very long. They just can't compete with the overflowing massess of games priced $29.99 and below.
-----------------------------------------------------------------


Anthony1 said:

"Little Johnny is just as happy playing a used version of Jak III as he would a brand new one. The kid just wants to play the damn game, and the parent just wants to get it as cheap as possible."

Leo Ames said:

No different than 25 years ago than today.

Anthony1's response:

25 years ago, people didn't buy used games at every retailer like they do today. Retailers didn't sell used games period. If you wanted to buy a used game, you had to go to a Garage sale or check the classified ads of the local paper. It's not even comparable.

------------------------------------------------------------------

Anthony1 said:

"In the old days, people bought their games for $49.99 each (or more), and these people just ended up keeping these games for a very long time. People had libraries of games for various systems. They never sold them, or traded them in. Why?"

Leo Ames said:

Nonesense, people have been trading in their systems and games after fairly short amounts since the beginning. It's just been the past decade that this has entered the retail environment thanks to companies like EB, Funcoland, GameStop, etc.

Anthony1's response:

Since the beginning? Trading in of used games first really started to happen in a big way around the launch of the Playstation back in 1995. Software ETC and EB had programs where people could trade in a certain number of Genesis or SNES games to receive $100 off the price of a Playstation. It was a new concept for "National Retailers". I'm not talking about Mom and Pop video game shops. I'm talking about things on a National, mainstream scale. After Software ETC and EB did the Playstation trade in thing with the SNES games and Genny games and SNES systems and Genny systems, then slowly but surely they started to adopt a policy of trading in for store credit, even when it was not for the purchase of a specific new system. It really didn't start getting mainstream until 1997 or 1998. And even then, it was only the video game specialty shops like Software ETC and EB. Again, I'm talking about things on a National scale, and not Mom and Pop video game shops or flea markets or anything like that.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------



Anthony1 said:

"But I can guarantee you one thing. Games like Psyconauts and Shadow of the Colossus will never be seen again. "

Leo Ames said:

As long as theres a market for them (As has been proven I'd say judging from sales of Shadow of the Colossus for starters), I guarantee we'll see the likes of them again.

Anthony1's response:

I only wish that was the case. Unfortunately, it's not going to be the case in another 5 years. In another 5 years, if things continue down this path, our choices for brand new games are going to get more and more limited. Only the mega publishers will survive the battle against Used game sales and Monthly rental plans, and these mega publishers are not going to give the greenlight to projects like Psyconauts or Shadow of the Colossus. It's just going to be too much of a financial risk for these publishers, so we unfortunately are going to end up with a bunch of sequels and licensed properties. I mean, it's already going that way right now. It's only going to get much worse.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------


Leo Ames said:

Typical gloom and doom non RGB Anthony1 post. :)

Anthony1's response:

Well, yes it is a non RGB Anthony1 post, but not all of my non RGB posts are doom and gloom. Do a search on Anthony1 and see how many recent posts of mine are doom and gloom. Not too many.

[zerohero]

"100 games at a $50 price tag are released. Only 50 people "half" buy it at that price, and then sell it back used for store credit. Now the "used" game is $25 bucks and the other "50" people that didn't buy the game now buy the used copy. Now think about that for a moment , and you will see what the original poster was talking about"


You're forgetting that the retailer already bought the games from the supplier so those are already considered sold to the manufacturer.

This is true, but the supplier will order less, and less if the items they are buying full price for are not being sold. Which is my shoe companies like Rebook get replaced with Nike shoe's.

[Anthony1]

Do you mean our hobby of Gaming or our hobby of Classic gaming? I think it only helps out hobby of classic gaming. Most of the collecting I do is for previous generations or for the games I missed out of the beginning of this generation all of which are used. There are far worse things in this world affecting our hobby than the growth of the used market.



When I say the word "Kill", I'm talking more about current publishers and developers that don't go by the name of EA or Konami. Killing the Industry is probably a major stretch on my part, but there is no question in my mind that this industry will be dramatically affected by this trend.


As for our hobby of collecting classic games, well, times couldn't be better. Consumers in the short run are benefitting tremendously from this trend. It's absolutely wonderfull for consumers. Right now, anyways. But there are long term consequences from this, that will eventually filter back to the consumers and we will eventually be affected by this.

[djbeatmongrel]

Really i dont think used sales are really hurting the industry becuase, as said before, some people want to play it ASAP or just dont like used games. Some people just don't see payinh certain prices for certain games so they just wait for the price to eventually come down.

its really just a simple supply and demand curve. game companies would love to sell games for $100 a piece but only a few people would buy it. lots of people would love to sell games for $5 a piece but retailers will probably only have them sold used and the game copanies just won't go for a loss that big on new products. the equilibrium price upon release seems to fluctuate around $40-60 per title. eventually the prices will come down to fill the rest of the demand, either retailer side or publisher side.

what i really think will raise the demand side of this (and this goes for any industry claiming major loses due to piracy) is making a better product. Most people dont want a cd for only 2 songs, they dont want a movie that is crappy from the start, and people dont want a game that entertains them for only 5 minutes. A consistent, quality product will usually get people to buy products more often upon release, or without rental or a small sampling.

just think of used games as a way for people to save a few bucks if the product is a dud.

[Anthony1]

". There are so many bargain basement games out there, that it's causing everybody to have to lower their prices prematurely."

Prove it




Well, here are some games that are featured in todays Fry's Electronics ad:


Gun (Xbox, PS2)----------------------------------$27.99
Tony Hawk's American Wasteland (Xbox,PS2)-----$ 27.99
187 Ride or Die (PS2,Xbox)------------------------$24.99
True Crime: New York City (Xbox, PS2)------------$24.99
Far Cry: Instincts (Xbox)---------------------------$19.99




If I'm not mistaken, all of these games were $49.99 when they originally released. Some of them weren't released that long ago.

[Captain Wrong]

If you think used games are ruining the hobby, feel free not to buy them. More for the rest of us.

Of course, you're also going to have to stop collecting every non-current gen gaming system unless you can find a large cache of new/old stock games. After all, what is retrogaming but collecting used games?

What's next? Are we going to argue buying old NES games on eBay will kill the Revolution's as yet still cloaked in much mystery ability to play old NES ROMS? That buying an Intellivision harms the sales of those all in one INTV plug-and-play controllers?

Good greif. The sky is not falling, chicken little. Used book stores have been around for ages and they haven't killed the publishing industry. Used CD stores didn't kill the music industry. The ability to buy used games which, as has been noted, has existed since the 2600 days, isn't going to "kill" the gaming industry.

[EricRyan34]

ahhh yes, I never really thought of this before. Although I don't think it is going to "kill our hobby" I understand what is going on. Thats what I have done for the past couple of years. I wont pick up a BRAND NEW game, because I know that I can find it used for alot less and easily.

[Nature Boy]

If I'm not mistaken, all of these games were $49.99 when they originally released. Some of them weren't released that long ago.

And how do you draw the link between used games and those lower prices?

I propose that the games dropped in price because there are so many new games on the shelf it's the only way they'll get any attention after it's no longer new. And I have as much proof of my theory as you do of yours.

Used games aren't killing anything other than my hands as I try to clean off the sticker residue.

[Trebuken]

This problem also came up over the last several years in regards to new books. Publishers were concerned that the widespread sale of used books on Amazon, Ebay, and the rest would hurt the sale of new books, but instead it had the reverse effect. People were more likely to buy a book new because they could turn around and sell it, getting some of their money back. The same can be said of DVD's, though the market seems to be getting a little flooded with these.

I also suspect that the addition of resellers like BestBuy will only force them to compete more for our used games. Gamestoip will not be able to get away with giving you $2 for a game if Best Buy will give you $4.

As long as the gaming industry continues to grow I think we're all OK, and maybe even really well off. Stores can sell games cheap sometimes because they know you'll bring it back for resale for next to nothing.

Later,
Trebuken

[Leo_A]

“Prove it? Just go to any Circuit City or Walmart or Target or whatever, and you will see that very few games stick at the $49.99 price for very long. They just can't compete with the overflowing massess of games priced $29.99 and below.”

You didn’t prove that the prices were being reduced prematurely, just that it’s happening quicker than you’d personally expect. Big difference.

“25 years ago, people didn't buy used games at every retailer like they do today. Retailers didn't sell used games period. If you wanted to buy a used game, you had to go to a Garage sale or check the classified ads of the local paper. It's not even comparable. “

Plenty of retailers don’t sell used games even today. And yes its comparable, people weren’t holding on to stuff any longer 25 years ago then now. If anything it was worse 25 years ago because you could buy used games even cheaper then the typical EB price for a used game that is maybe 2-3$ cheaper than than for a new copy. It was quite common 25 years ago, it just typically didn’t take place in national retail chains like it often does today.

Anthony1, people have been selling their games, often after short periods, since the very beginning. The only difference is its became more convenient. It is very comparable.

“Again, I'm talking about things on a National scale, and not Mom and Pop video game shops or flea markets or anything like that. “

Your disregarding it over the locations it takes place in? Go to a library or something and view local papers from the early 80's and check out the classified sections and then compare them to today where you rarely see games listed. It was very common to sell your games in the paper, garage sales, etc. The only change that has happened is much of that has shifted to chain stores due to the convenience.

“I only wish that was the case. Unfortunately, it's not going to be the case in another 5 years. In another 5 years, if things continue down this path, our choices for brand new games are going to get more and more limited.”

Your stating that like it’s a fact, but it’s not. Not you nor me can make a accurate prediction, but I believe it will be quite the opposite.

“If I'm not mistaken, all of these games were $49.99 when they originally released. Some of them weren't released that long ago.”

Check out reviews and sales numbers for those. I think you’ll see reasons for it, but to say used game sales is responsible for their price reductions is assuming a awful lot. And you have to keep in mind the time of year it is right now, it’s very common to see such price reductions after the holiday season, especially for games that didn’t sell as well as expected.

[zerohero]

100 games at a $50 price tag are released. Only 50 people "half" buy it at that price, and then sell it back used for store credit. Now the "used" game is $25 bucks and the other "50" people that didn't buy the game now buy the used copy. Now think about that for a moment , and you will see what the original poster was talking about.

-You're forgetting that the retailer already bought the games from the supplier so those are already considered sold to the manufacturer.


This is true, but the supplier will order less, and less if the items they are buying full price for are not being sold. Which is my shoe companies like Rebook get replaced with Nike shoe's.

[Leo_A]

Yeah but you never see that kind of margin between a used and new copy of a game typically. Take for example Metroid Prime 2 at EB. New it's selling for $19.99, used $17.99. So I'd say maybe 5-10 of those people you mentioned would be going for the used copies...

[Lothars]

I honestly think this topic is just nonsense like the other one

used games don't kill the industry

Hell 9 times out of 10 ill buy a new game if it's a decent price but I prefer to buy used games if I can get an awesome deal such as from blockbuster

but im just shocked at how you will say that used games in general are bad but whatever Ill keep doing what I am

I just don't see where your coming from with this topic.

[Griking]

I agree with Anthony1 about this. While I don't think that used games are going to kill the industry I truely believe that it definitely hurts it.

And as I mentioned above, take away used game sales and you hurt new game sales anyhow because people can't sell their old games to be able to afford new games.

So which hurts the least I wonder...?

I think you're stretching it a bit there. Sure people trade in used games to buy new ones but many others trade in their used games to buy other used games which again does nothing to support developers. If used game stores suddenly disappeared overnight I really don't think that developers would shed a tear over lost sales due to trade ins.



I think the automotive view that was mentioned is the way the industry is going. Its not going to kill it in the least. Its the same with buying used CD's or used toys. I guess maybe

Yeah, the music industry, there's another great example of an industry who's profits are going through the roof lately.

If you think used games are ruining the hobby, feel free not to buy them. More for the rest of us.


Of course, you're also going to have to stop collecting every non-current gen gaming system unless you can find a large cache of new/old stock games. After all, what is retrogaming but collecting used games?

Maybe Anthony1 didn't go so far as to spell it out but I'm pretty sure that he meant that used game sales hurt the retail sales of [i]current gen games. After all, you really can't hurt the new retail sales of something that isn't being sold new any longer to begin with.


And how do you draw the link between used games and those lower prices?

You can't argue a point by constantly saying "prove it". Obviously some things just can't be proved. Otherwise why don't you prove to us that used game sales don't have a link to price drops?


Hell 9 times out of 10 ill buy a new game if it's a decent price but I prefer to buy used games if I can get an awesome deal such as from blockbuster

I don't think that anyone's said that people don't still buy new games. In fact, many people only want new pristine copies of games. But obviously enough people buy their games used to keep companies like Gamestop, EBWorld, Game Crazy, Blockbuster, etc... thriving.

How much do you think it benefit developers if only a quarter of the people who bought a used copy of a game bought the game new instead?

[blissfulnoise]

I think Anthony1 has a good point that no on has touched on.

Receiving used games as gifts.

While in some circles, this is unavoidable (see: Classic Gaming) but I do think it's in bad taste to give a used copy of Halo 2 as a gift.

Dunno. Obviously you save some money, and in some families this may make a big difference, but it still seems kind of shady. Hum. I think this is a question for Miss Manners.

[swlovinist]

While I have disagreed with him in the past, I do believe that the flood of gamestores selling used merchandise IS DEFINATELY GOING TO IMPACT SALES of the game industry of the future. I truly think that this is why Xbox marketplace was born. Making money without the chance of getting the content at any other source. Used games are great for consumers, bad for developers. 15 years ago you had fewer choices on where to buy used games. Now, game stores rival gas stations it seems in urban areas. As a collector and gamer, there are very few incentives to go to a store and buy a new game, knowing that someone else is going to take the hit for me and if I am patient(at most a week), I can save $10. There is a point to what Anthony is saying. The Game industry is in for a wake up call, it is just a matter of time when that is going to be. Mark my words.

[goatdan]

I think that it's rather telling that no one replied to either of my posts in this thread or the other. There is not one legit reason why used games should not be sold, as EVERYTHING that you purchase can be resold. I think I made the analogy of it to buying a used house in the other thread, but I think it's perfect -- should we not buy used houses just because they are used? Or should home builders be forced to think that by building a new home, that home will not be rebuild time and time again.

Stupid argument. I'm floored it comes up so often. Last I checked, selling used things has been around longer than video games has been -- or even electricity for that matter -- and we've gotten by just fine. Developers, publishers and stores must keep that in mind when they make anything.

[Sniderman]

I think Anthony1 has a good point that no on has touched on.

Receiving used games as gifts.

While in some circles, this is unavoidable (see: Classic Gaming) but I do think it's in bad taste to give a used copy of Halo 2 as a gift.

Dunno. Obviously you save some money, and in some families this may make a big difference, but it still seems kind of shady. Hum. I think this is a question for Miss Manners.

To be honest, I actually ASK for used games rather than new. It KILLS me when my folks or wife or whomever pay $50 for a new off-the-shelf game when I know the very same game can be had used for $20. (Even worse when the game is STILL marked as $50 at the one store they shop at when it's selling for NEW for $15 just down the street.)

Usually, they just give me an EB Games gift card for $50. And rather than one brand-new game, I get the same game used as well as a handful of others for the same $50.

[Bronty-2]

yaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaawwwwwn.... talk about a non-issue :roll:

[Griking]

I think that it's rather telling that no one replied to either of my posts in this thread or the other. There is not one legit reason why used games should not be sold, as EVERYTHING that you purchase can be resold. I think I made the analogy of it to buying a used house in the other thread, but I think it's perfect -- should we not buy used houses just because they are used? Or should home builders be forced to think that by building a new home, that home will not be rebuild time and time again.

Stupid argument. I'm floored it comes up so often. Last I checked, selling used things has been around longer than video games has been -- or even electricity for that matter -- and we've gotten by just fine. Developers, publishers and stores must keep that in mind when they make anything.

None of us are saying that games shouldn't be sold used. Used games are great...for the consumer. Truthfully I buy most of my games used. Saving money is great , but the fact is that every game I buy used is one copy of a game that I won't be buying new.

As you said in your earlier post, anything that is bought new can be resold used without much of an impact, but I think it's a bit different in the gaming industry.

First of all, it's not like it was in the past where a person would only able to buy used games if they found them in the classified section of their local newspaper or if they lucked out at a tag sale. Nowadays you can find a used copies of practically any recently released "A" list game in practically every mall in the country. Not only that, game store employees are trained to talk you out of purchasing a new game in favor of a used copy. And once you buy a game from them they bombard you with reminders that you can always trade that game back to them so they can resell it over and over and over again to other customers who may have instead purchased a new copy of the game. What other industry works like this?

The only other industry that I can think of off of the top of my head that has as large of a resale market is the automobile industry but it's not a fair comparison. Generally it's common for companies like Sony, MS and Nintendo to take a loss for every game console sold because they hope to make up for their hardware losses with high software sales. that just won't happen if 50% of people buy their games used. It's not like General Motors sells their cars at a loss because they know they'll make their money back when everybody buys GM brand gasoline. Sony doesn't sell their stereos and DVD players at a loss because they know we're going to buy only Sony brand music CDs and DVDs

[unwinddesign]

On a related note, does it piss anyone else off that the games from national chains like Gamestop/EBGames are slathered in stickers and are typically in crap condition? Seriously, if they didn't load the case up with so many fucking stickers, I'd buy a lot more used games.

[goatdan]

None of us are saying that games shouldn't be sold used. Used games are great...for the consumer. Truthfully I buy most of my games used. Saving money is great for me, but the fact is that every game I buy used is one copy of a game that I won't be buying new.

Wait -- let me take a look at what you just said here:

You buy used games to save money.

Saving money is important. I'm guessing this is because money isn't unlimited, as is the case with... well, probably everyone on these boards.

If you couldn't buy used games cheaper, you would buy new games.

BUT! if you couldn't buy used games, is it true that you would purchase less new games if the prices remained high? Personally, I don't pay more than $20.00 for a game except in very rare circumstances. If I couldn't buy used games, I would buy less games by a lot, and/or constantly wait for super good sales. If the game industry didn't drop prices on games, I probably wouldn't have a modern console. I bet a LOT of people feel the same way, and I think you could agree with that, right? I probably have 150 this gen games. If I had to buy them new, I would probably have 25, and instead of four consoles (Xbox, 2 GameCubes and a DS), I would probably have one and maybe 2.


First of all, it's not like it was in the past where a person would only able to find used copies of games if they found them in the classified section of their newspaper or if they lucked out at a tag sale. Nowadays you can find a used copies of practically any recently released "A" list game in practically every mall in the country. Game store employees are trained to talk you out of purchasing a new game in favor of a used copy of the the game. Any once you buy a game from them they remind you constantly that you can always trade it back to them so they can resell it over and over and over again to other customers who may have instead purchased a new copy of the game. What other industry works like this?

Think about it this way -- if a game sells and is good, there won't be used copies to sell for a long time. Let's take the game Halo 2: LE for instance. When it came out, it sold for $60 a pop. And it sold WONDERFULLY. Tons of people bought them. It came out last year. The first time I saw an LE version used was months after it originally came out.

So if I wanted to play the game for the first three months, a new game was the only way to go.

Games -- unlike larger purchases like cars, houses or whatever -- are things that you can play through relatively quickly. I am about to complete Lunar Legend on the GBA. I figure it will have taken me about 20 hours of playtime to complete, and at least 4 hours of that probably could've been shaved off. So realistically, I could've beat Lunar in a day if I played nonstop.

A car or house doesn't give you the ability to switch easily or quickly, so you tend to use it longer. My car is from 98 and I bought it Used in 2001, so it took about 3 years for someone to get "through with it" to get a new one to upgrade too. They were through with it for whatever reason -- they didn't like it anymore, it didn't get good enough gas milage, it wasn't big enough inside -- whatever. The fact is, they sold it... just like I could theoritically do with Lunar Legend the day I bought it after beating it.

Chances are that won't happen that often, so developers have time (and incentive) to make games that appeal to people beyond a couple days. If they can do that, the new market will flourish for a few months -- which is about the same amount of time that it takes before a game starts going through it's clearance cycle.

And an industry like this? The film industry releases movies for rental and purchase and I believe a very high percentage of their sales -- 80% or more -- are within the first few weeks it was released for new movies. So the key is to sell immediately. After that point, people can get them used much cheaper. Same with books.

By nature, videogames are a consumable that we can pass on quickly. As collectors, we tend not too -- but for the gaming populace, it just makes sense.


The only other industry that I can think of off of the top of my head that has as large of a resale market is the automobile industry but it's not a fair comparison.

As I pointed out, the house market is the same basic thing, and I think it is a relatively fair comparison -- although cars and homes are "consumable" in a much slower fashion.


Generally it's common for companies like Sony, MS and Nintendo to take a loss for every game console sold because they hope to make up for their hardware losses with high software sales. that just won't happen if 50% of people buy their games used.

You're assuming that everyone will a very high percentage of their games. Even the "non-gamers" that I know who get a system will keep 5-10 games for it. If the break even point for a console is four games sold per console, and per console 7.5 games sell, then whatever company that is made a lot of money.

Based on your statement above, everyone who had the console would have to basically immediately sell their games when they were done, and never have more than a few at a time.

[goatdan]

On a related note, does it piss anyone else off that the games from national chains like Gamestop/EBGames are slathered in stickers and are typically in crap condition? Seriously, if they didn't load the case up with so many fucking stickers, I'd buy a lot more used games.

Yeah, that's a BIG deal to me. And the fact that one of the EBs near me has decided to throw out the insides of the DS games except the actual instruction manual. I always end up begging and pleading for them not to add more stickers too...

But I find myself in the same category. I've been much more prone to searching out really good deals.

[Anthony1]

Usually, they just give me an EB Games gift card for $50. And rather than one brand-new game, I get the same game used as well as a handful of others for the same $50.



This is exactly the type of thing I was talking about. Sniderman is just being an intelligent consumer, and he's taking advantage of this new gaming marketplace that is now available to him. There is nothing wrong with that. But unfortunately, it's this kind of commerce that is going to have some seriously negative reprucussions on the future of this Industry. It has nothing to do with Sniderman. I would do the same thing. There is nothing inherently wrong with this kind of commerce, I'm just talking about the ramifications.

I know alot of gamers that NEVER buy new games. The only time they buy it new, is if for some weird reason it's marked incredibly low, and they can get it for an even better price than used. The thing is, I know alot of gamers that rent games, and buy used games, and that's about it. A number of them probably haven't bought a $49.99 game in like 2 or 3 years. While these same people that I'm talking about used to routinely buy new games for $49.99 or even more during the 90's, and even into early 2000. But in the last 3 or 4 years, these guys have changed their buying habits.


Why have they changed their buying habits? Because it's just a different world out there now. I don't know about you, but where I live, there is a blockbuster or Hollywood Video on just about every other corner. Same thing with Gamestops. All of these places have a wide selection of previously owned games, that have prices that are just too low to ignore.


A very good friend of mine, who I've known since the 3DO days was the type of gamer that would buy a brand new game the second it came out. $59.99, whatever, it didn't matter to him. He was just the type of guy that wanted his games immediately. Well, this guy was still doing this up until a few months ago. He complete changed his style, and now he simply rents games from GameFly and places like that. He has several monthly rental plans from several different places, and he doesn't even buy games period. He doesn't even buy used games. He simply leases games. It's the new way that he spends his video game dollars. He was telling me that he spends about $70 per month on various monthly rental plans. But he doesn't think it's a big deal at all, cause he considers it like a monthly cellular phone bill or direct tv bill or high speed internet bill. It's just another monthly bill to him. Dude is spending like $70 per month, but he has like 9 games at his house. 9 of whatever is the latest and greatest, basically the 9 current gen games that would be his most wanted games to have in his possession. He doesn't own any of the games, but doesn't really care.


Sorry to stray off topic, but that's just another example of this new kind of video game commerce that is going on right now. Things are changing. The way that we get our gaming fix can take a number of different forms. One of those forms is buying brand new games at retailers for full price. But there are alot of other ways to get that gaming fix. Buying games used for dirt cheap, or doing various monthly rental plans like a cell phone bill or direct TV bill, that's another way to do it.

[esquire]

You're forgetting that the retailer already bought the games from the supplier so those are already considered sold to the manufacturer.

I'm not positive how that related to my point, but I think you're forgetting that the retailers have a deal that they can "sell" their games back for a preset amount if they do not sell very well.

If you didn't understand my post you will never understand retail.

Video game sales are based off of what the manufacturer has sold not how much the stores have sold.

I agree wholeheartedly, and this is what the original post fails to take note of. When stores like Gamestop maximize their profit margins by selling "used" games, the increased profit allows them to purchase more "new" games from their distributors resulting in higher video game sales for the publisher/developer. I mean where do some of you think the money these stores make off used games goes? It's reinvested into the business of course.

Lower profit margins will mean less variety of games carried in a store.

Therefore one could argue that "used" game sales actually benefit the gaming industry.

Oh, and for the "trade-in" process to work, there has to be a reason for the gamer to trade-in his old games - i.e. there must be "new" games on the shelf that he wants to use the store credit to purchase. What's the point of trading in a game at store that doesn't carry anything you want in exchange? The majority of this is the purchasing new releases. When a new release comes out such as Madden, Resident Evil, or say a XBOX 360 game, it takes a while for the used copies to circulate back to the game store. In the meantime, the stores need to carry new stock, lest they lose customers and sales.

[PapaStu]

". There are so many bargain basement games out there, that it's causing everybody to have to lower their prices prematurely."

Prove it




Well, here are some games that are featured in todays Fry's Electronics ad:


Gun (Xbox, PS2)----------------------------------$27.99
Tony Hawk's American Wasteland (Xbox,PS2)-----$ 27.99
187 Ride or Die (PS2,Xbox)------------------------$24.99
True Crime: New York City (Xbox, PS2)------------$24.99
Far Cry: Instincts (Xbox)---------------------------$19.99




If I'm not mistaken, all of these games were $49.99 when they originally released. Some of them weren't released that long ago.

Dude, how long have you lved around frys? They do One day sales ALL THE TIME. They also do regular weekly sales as well on games. I've bought many a games on Frys random sales. Its to get customers into the stores. Go check em out on Tuesdays and find that new dvd for 14.99 when everwhere else will be selling it for 16.99 on sale. They usually even beat out Wal*Mart for that first day (and then the price goes back to regular) the next day. Games are no different, they want you in the store to get that one game, and while your there you'll be like, OH I need this or that for my computer or a toaster or something. Its called Lost leaders.

To comment on the original post, The industry isnt going anywhere, they know and understand that primary game stores sell used, but since most publishers sell shitton more games to Targets and WalMarts and other Big Box retailers who DONT do that, they don't let it get to them as much as your thinking it does. Lots of the newer games dont even face the higher licensing costs anymore, only the really big stuff. Hell even the Sony Party titles are only 39. On top of that some of the new big release games are crap and dont sell, so for the publisher to even hope to move more units they drop the base price and hope the game picks up and more people buy it. Sometimes all it takes is for a game to drop 10 bucks for it to sell well enough for the company to be happy with it.

[lendelin]

wrong thread

[KingCobra]

The used game market helps promote the gamming industry by keeping it around longer IMO, the used market is in general for dead consoles anyways. It's not a neccesary like a car, Food or clothing. It's entertainment and it can fade like other trends of the past if intrest is lost.

Their getting smarter by doing downloading of arcade stuff and whatnot this gen and the comming gen, you have to remember that you buy used in general because you can't obtain games of the past on the curent hardware gen, or supply/Demand outweighs the amount of pressings, or your just flat poor or a cheap ass gamer, and in that case? you wouldn't be buying new anyways.

Otherwise your a collector, witch is illrelevent(SP?) to the modern game developers and publishers anyways unless they've bought the rights to older generations of gamming. Though, if their not going to publish the shit? They need to STFU! LOL

[googlefest1]

i have to agree with anthony1

i dont think that it will kill the industry - but it certainly wounds it.

ill use my self as an example - i used to buy new games - now i rarely do- unless its at a nice discount. My absolute limit is 30$ for a new game wich only applies to limited ED games that have not gone down below that price within a year or 2 AND if the condition of the used copies is not to my liking.

I am a used game buyer - i find that many used games come in great like new condition that it prevents me from being able to justify a new game purchase.

also, I never buy new release games since i have observed that most prices start droping very quickly.

I keep on meeting more and more "converts" that have the same idea.

the must have new and right now people will still be around so sales wont drop dramaticaly over night but i do belive that more and more people geting the same idea i am.

so this may eventualy force the companies to start releaseing games at cheaper prices or makeing greater games.

currently i think the economy still suports impusle buyers but that will not last forever and i think oneday people will wake up and start buying older, cheaper, used games. right now things balance out, but the scale will eventualy tip and the industry will take steps to fix the problem

[XianXi]

Honestly, great games aren't hard to move. They fly off the shelf no matter the price. That is the problem with the gaming industry, they need to produce higher quality games.

[slip81]

I don't see how in any way the sale of used games is hurting, or will eventually hurt the industry.

As many others have said, people and retailers have been selling used merchandise for as long as merchandise has been around. Vintage clothing stores, rat hole CD and movie stores that sell rare, used and out of print stuff, car dealers, pawn shops, small town electronics stores, and coultless other bussneses sell used stuff everyday, and it hasn't ruined any industry.

A lot of people also probably realize that buying used media is a bit of a gamble because there is always the possibility that it might not work right, and if you get the stores only copy, you can't go back and exchange it for the same thing.

I could also say the same thing for piratecy. Since just about the advent of the CD burner in personal computers people have been copying and sharing music, yet the industry hasn't collapsed, and artists like Brittney Spears, and the Backstreet Boys still manage to go multi platinum with their albums.

The fact of the matter is, a LOT of people buy new shit, and will continue to do so no matter what. Americans buy things, it's what we do best, and we spend a lot of money doing it.

And also, in order for something to be used, someone has to buy it new first. So if you walk into Blockbuster and see 30 used copies of Halo 2, that means that either, the store bought them in bulk as rentals, or someone else purchased it first (probably at the intraductory offer of $50) or a mixture of the two.

The industry is still getting plenty of money, and will contiue to do so, because there are people who will pay the price without asking an questions.

How many people here think $10 is too much for a movie ticket? Probably most of us, but millions of consumers go to the theatres everyday, and help the latest box office release earn 60 million in a weekend.

So continue to play used games and sell them. I think the only person you're hurting by paying $59.99 for a CD based game is yourself.

I think the biggest problem is that games are getting too exspensive to make. How easily the game industry forgets a time when litterally a handfull of people could program something extraordinary for a small cost. Now it takes a complex full of people and a film budget just to get the latest Madden into stores.

But I digress, that is a different thread entirely.

[Anthony1]

I would just like to respond to a couple of things that I've noticed in this thread.



1. The Industry will not be "killed" by this.


Ok, I totally agree with that, saying that the Used Game Trade will kill the industry is being a little bit ridiculous, obviously it's an exageration, but my point is that the Used Games Trade is extremely damaging to this industry, and it could cause this Industry to suffer a serious shaking out period.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


2. Retail stores that participate in the Used Game Trade put the profits from that trade back into buying more new games.


Well, to a certain degree, I'm sure that they fact that they are making so much profit on used games, well definitely some of that profit is finding it's way back into their process of buying new games, but I think it's much more unlrelated than you think. GameCrazy for example is a place, where I've noticed that they don't carry alot of stock for brand new games. There are alot of games where they only have 1 or 2 copies on hand. So, I think alot of these stores sell brand new games, but it's definitely not a primary focus of their revenue streams. It's the Used Game Trade that keeps them in business. The majority of their profits actually goes into opening additional stores to buy games for pennies on the dollar and then resell them for huge profit. You know how fast the GameStop chain is growing? They are popping up on every other strip mall. The reason they are able to expand so quickly, is because of their incredible growth in the Used Game Trade. They are pouring the vast majority of those profits into opening more stores, not buying larger and larger amounts of games. The last thing they want is a ton of unsold inventory of some game that was supposed to be a big hit, that didn't sell well at all.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

3. You shouldn't buy used games or you are contributing to the downfall of our Industry


Well, technically, buying a used game rather than a new one, certainly isn't helping the situation any, but I'm not blaming consumers for doing this. In fact, it just makes logical fiscal sense to buy your entertainment products at a significant discount off of retail. People that constantly pay full pop for video games just aren't being very penny wise consumers. If you have that kind of dough to just throw away, well more power to you. I don't have that kinda dough. Since November 22nd, I've been interested in getting a copy of Halo 2, to try it on my Xbox 360, but I wasn't about to pay the price for a brand new one. Even though the price for a brand new one is typically $29.99 at most major retailers. Even paying $29.99 makes very bad fiscal sense. So I've been patient waiting for a chance to snag a used copy at a really good price, and I was able to find a pre-owned copy at Blockbuster for $6.99. Does my purchase of a used Halo 2 for $6.99 hurt the industry? On a very, very, very small scale yes. It eliminates the possibility of me buying a brand new one for $29.99. That means it's going to translate into another unsold copy at a store that will eventually have to be marked down even further, with the store suffering an even further loss on their original order. Which in turn, could cause the store to order fewer copies of whatever other game is coming down the pipe. The bottom line is that you can't blame anybody for being intelligent consumers and penny wise consumers. Unless you are independently wealthy, you need to keep your finances in check.


-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------



4. Tons of other industries have used sales for their products and that isn't "killing" them.



The comparisons that have been made between video games and other industries in regards to the sale of used items has been quite lackluster in my opinion. I mean, it's not like comparing Apples to Oranges, it's like comparing Apples to Orangutans, not even remotely related. Somebody actually compared the auto industry to video games. Ok, so we are going to compare something that somebody buys once every 4 to 8 years to something that somebody buys every month or every other month. We are also going to compare something that costs anywhere from $800 or so, all the way into the neighborhood of 3k, 4k, 5k, 10k, 15k, etc Used video games have prices of $5, $10, $15, $20, etc, etc, and you are going to compare that to items that cost several thousand all the way into the range of 20k and 25K and 30k and 35k for luxury pre-owned vehicles. The music industry is actually a pretty close comparison, although people aren't getting their music used, they are just out right stealing it. The point is, consumers aren't buying brand new music at retailers like they used to, or stores like Wherehouse records would still be around. We are at the beginning of our trend, while music has already been there, done that, and had to re-invent itself with the whole download a song for 99 cents strategy.

[Ed Oscuro]

The used games market just hurts GameStop's standing with publishers, that's all.

If anything, big chain sales of "must have" titles and alternate distribution methods will rule the future of game sales (outside of areas in which GameStop could forseeably stay relevant, such as sales of physical stuff like Nintendo Revolution shells and game cartridges, I guess, along with used game sales).

[Nature Boy]

1. The Industry will not be "killed" by this.

Ok, I totally agree with that, saying that the Used Game Trade will kill the industry is being a little bit ridiculous, obviously it's an exageration, but my point is that the Used Games Trade is extremely damaging to this industry, and it could cause this Industry to suffer a serious shaking out period.

This is exactly the kind of exageration that drives me nuts in a thread like this. Talking about how used games affect sales is one thing, throwing around words like 'killing' etc. takes a bit of the intelligence out of it. Argue your point, but don't bother with the drama.

I find used prices just as ridiculous as the new ones - I bought "Shadow of the Collosus" this past weekend and the used price was all of $3 cheaper than the new price. Why bother?

The only time used games become worth it, IMO, is after the game has been out a year. Then nobody wants it and they just want to get rid of it. Which is the same thing they do with new games, isn't it? Fantavision is under $10 these days, brand new.

Sure some people will pay the $3 less each and every time, but that'll hardly affect things much. If margins on new games are what they used to be I'm happy the retailer is getting people to buy the used stuff at that price - it's the only thing that'll keep 'em in business. (And the last thing I want is for Wal-Mart and Best Buy to be my only purchasing options for new games).

[Tan]

it's because the game industry is getting to be a bigger economic player these concerns would have come up eventually

i agree with Anthony1, "it's like comparing Apples to Orangutans" the auto industry has been around for 100 years, and with the exception of gas prices it's as healthy as ever, just because the "big three" aren't making enough money to stop whining doesn't mean the end, many manufacturers are consistently having better fiscal years i.e. honda toyota, breaking records and setting new standards.

how many retailers have sold used movies over the last 30 years? we all know how the movie industry is hurting right now and we can draw a parallel here, crap movies=crap revenues, crap games=crap revenues, if you've got a mediocre game don't expect to sell millions, expect people to pay what they feel is reasonable for a so-so game.

other types of industries with strong used product sales have been around for decades, even centuries in some cases, the game industry has just matured into another consumer driven industry from a minority specialty hobby, it was bound to happen eventually, and it won't really hurt that bad, the best games are still selling millions upon millions, some games are even outselling previous "gens" of hardware when they break the 10 million mark, and i believe i read a figure somewhere that said a game needs to sell like 1.6million to break even or so if it's a big budget title

[goatdan]

I don't understand why people think that you can't draw comparisons between industries -- automobilies are essentially as "consumable" as video games are. When you are done with them, there is still something there that is worth some money. It happens quicker in video games than it does in automobilies. But saying that they are as different as an orange fruit and a brown mammal is just wrong. An economist with half the intelligence of an orangutan should be able to tell that they are, in some ways similar.

And what someone said about the movie industry being in a similar state is right -- crap movies / crap games = crap revenues. And stopping people from selling games used isn't going to help anything at all. There would be no reason for manufacturers to make a game that was "must have" the moment it was released... they could keep charging whatever they wanted for it for years.

And finally, some game companies used the used game market to drive up demand on their titles. For instance, if you have a company that makes a game that a few years later becomes very popular and raises in price -- this often times happens with RPGs and real-time strategy games -- when that company releases a new game, a lot of gamers don't want to "miss" getting it at the best price, which will be new. This drives demand and means that developers / publishers don't need to advertise as much. It works for the developers in situations like this.

Remember when Spikeout: Battlestreet was released by Sega? I don't think I saw any advertising for it, but the fact that people said it would be impossible to find meant it sold out everywhere and was selling on eBay for double it's price immediately after release. A few weeks later when stores got in their second batch, they sold a lot quciker because of how much talk went on about it. The same thing is going on right now with Phoenix Wright for the DS.

The used video game market isn't hurting developer / publishers... in fact, developers and publishers are starting to use it to make their new releases even more popular.

Of course, I'll be ignored again... so I'll end this with a comment that we can all agree on...

USED GAMEZ R LIKE WAREZ, MAN!!!1

:roll:

[Trebuken]

we all know how the movie industry is hurting right now and we can draw a parallel here, crap movies=crap revenues, crap games=crap revenues, if you've got a mediocre game don't expect to sell millions, expect people to pay what they feel is reasonable for a so-so game.


I love this perception. The movie studios promote this. They are a few percent behind the billions in profits they made last year (in theatres, not in DVD sales), and suddenly they are hurting. Walmart had a disapponting holiday season too. Maybe they should start closing a few stores. These industries are fixated on their numbers. They set a number that they wish to achieve and when they come up short they are struggling. Exxon/Mobil really struggled through the hurricane season also. They only annouced record profits for any US company ever...

Later,
Trebuken

[Ed Oscuro]

They are a few percent behind the billions in profits they made last year (in theatres, not in DVD sales), and suddenly they are hurting.
Make a few billion on top films, and lose a few billion on the also-rans...eh, what's a few billion missing here and there?


They set a number that they wish to achieve and when they come up short they are struggling.
Yes, when you don't meet stockholder expectations in returning a profit, it is a struggle. Nobody can settle for "stable" profits in business - if you don't get a return, somebody else will and their business will overtake yours.


Exxon/Mobil really struggled through the hurricane season also. They only annouced record profits for any US company ever...
From what I saw, this was Congress sensationalizing the issue (not to say they didn't feel righteous doing it, but they were wrong). The oil business is huge, so those big numbers don't mean much for such a company. Talking about the gas price hikes...those helped keep any thoughts of excursions out of my mind, and out of the minds of many others, as well. The increased price was a measure to help stave off a run on the pumps (remember 9/11? Of course people do this. The artifically boosted gas prices were corrected, of course, later on when it became obvious individual stations were hiking prices in concert).

[cyberfluxor]

I've talked a little about how used games can be considered legal piracy to a small degree, but ultimately that used game was at retail price at one point in time so at least the makers made something.

I can rant about the subject from many angles, but ultimately it doesn't matter. Everything in the world is sold and resold many times over. If the universal retail market hasn't collapsed yet, I think we're good to go.

[Zing]

I love this perception. The movie studios promote this. They are a few percent behind the billions in profits they made last year (in theatres, not in DVD sales), and suddenly they are hurting. Walmart had a disapponting holiday season too. Maybe they should start closing a few stores. These industries are fixated on their numbers. They set a number that they wish to achieve and when they come up short they are struggling. Exxon/Mobil really struggled through the hurricane season also. They only annouced record profits for any US company ever...


This reminds me of when I worked at Fedex in 2001. There was this large poster on the wall in the lobby that proudly proclaimed the company had a 40% increase in profits since 1999. Guess what happened a couple months later? I got laid off along with thousands of others across the nation due to "hard times".

[sabre2922]

Respectfully I just want to know what it is that Anthony 1 smokes when he posts on this board and were can I get some :D

[Anthony1]

Respectfully I just want to know what it is that Anthony 1 smokes when he posts on this board and were can I get some :D



Well, I am in Northern California LOL

[Tan]

how's this: we need to support the used game market to promote recycling to save the enviroment, it's the least we can do for the planet, because we can't afford to keep burying the crap under a landfill like E.T.

think of the children....for heaven sakes will someone please think of the children..... :|

[Diatribal Deity]

What keeps the industry going is new players. As long as there are new customers there will always be a percentage that buy new games. As soon as interest flatlines, economy tanks, etc. the industry takes a hit. This is what happened to an extent in Japan. Emerging economies like China and India will present additional potential for this industry as new markets can be penetrated. Business 101.

[Iron Draggon]

Years of used bookstores, used music stores, and used movie stores haven't killed off any of those industries yet, so used game stores aren't gonna be killing off the games industry either. On the contrary, they help to keep it alive.

[GameDeals.ca]

There are many valid points here... and I wanted to add my thoughts on the matter (as a used video game retailer myself).

The sales of Used video games DO affect the sales of new product... BUT they work the same way as rentals. Some people will NOT buy "generic game" at all for full retail price. This is why the rental market exists... so they can sell a few copies for a larger number of consumers. Used game sales are the same, except that the "renter" can keep the game until they're done with it and re-sell it. Without the used market, they would sell less new games, and probably fewer consoles because these people would not pay full price anyway. It's the same theory for "illegally downloaded music/movies"... the people who pirate stuff, are the people who would not have paid full price anyway... so no real loss in sales, but it establishes a larger customer base (that buys controllers & memory cards, etc.).

The bigger concern (as mentioned) is that a lot of new games are crap, and companies like Sony & Microsoft are banking on crap to make a profit (instead of being smart like Nintendo). Nintendo makes a console (that turns a profit on it's own), then releases a pile of good games with huge replayability (Mario Kart, Animal Crossing, Mario Party, etc. etc.) and makes even more money because people KEEP these games (thus no used market).

The end result, is that even if used game sales did hurt the industry, the industry is growing at such a high rate that it can handle it. Not to mention the additional revenue streams that they are generating with "Live", downloadable content & retro games, faceplates, etc. The industry is only getting bigger, it isn't going anywhere... but it is changing (especially in the "used classic games" market - but that's a whole other topic).

[Tron 2.0]

Years of used bookstores, used music stores, and used movie stores haven't killed off any of those industries yet, so used game stores aren't gonna be killing off the games industry either. On the contrary, they help to keep it alive.
Agreed beside i'm glad there is a.. used market for video games.

It let's me get "old system and games" that i use to own that i like to play again.

[Nature Boy]

There are many valid points here... and I wanted to add my thoughts on the matter (as a used video game retailer myself).

Well said. Although I think it's dangerous thinking "the people who pirate stuff, are the people who would not have paid full price anyway" - you can guarantee that a lot of them wouldn't pay the full price, but not *all* of them.

I suspect it gets glossed over because those in the latter category probably mean less revenue than the costs associated with stopping it altogether.

[Mayhem]

Nintendo makes a console (that turns a profit on it's own), then releases a pile of good games with huge replayability (Mario Kart, Animal Crossing, Mario Party, etc. etc.) and makes even more money because people KEEP these games (thus no used market).

It can also be argued, especially in the US, that some of these games have never made Player's Choice status (the Mario Party games, Mario Kart: DD, Paper Mario etc) and hence they keep their value even in the used market (try finding used Paper Mario less than $30 in a store!) because of this. People are willing to pay $30-35 for them used because it's still less than the $50 they are new.

[Ed Oscuro]

the people who pirate stuff, are the people who would not have paid full price anyway... so no real loss in sales, but it establishes a larger customer base (that buys controllers & memory cards, etc.).
Let's say I buy an Xbox 360, but only buy a handful of games full-price, and buy a lot of games used or secondhand, and either scrimp on controllers + memory cards or go third party. That pretty much describes my buying habits. Microsoft would be recovering their loss on the console very slowly with only one or two full-price games sold to me every year, and indeed I doubt they'd come close to recouping it if I bought all my games off Amazon or eBay (which I'm pretty close to doing, as even new $20 clearance games at local stores suck - bad selection, and still too pricey).

[Nature Boy]

Microsoft would be recovering their loss on the console very slowly with only one or two full-price games sold to me every year, and indeed I doubt they'd come close to recouping it if I bought all my games off Amazon or eBay

We're talking about the industry, not one specific console maker. By paying for 3rd party memory cards and controllers you're still supporting the industry.

It doesn't matter who you buy your games off of either - the license was paid and MicroSoft got their money right from the get go.

[goatdan]

the people who pirate stuff, are the people who would not have paid full price anyway... so no real loss in sales, but it establishes a larger customer base (that buys controllers & memory cards, etc.).

That's simply not true. If it was, the Dreamcast should've kicked everyone ass as people were buying it, buying controllers and memory cards and no games... but yet it died.

There is a real loss due to piracy, but that's a whole different conversation and one that it seems most people on these boards don't want to read through (kinda like a lot of this one...) as we've done it before and not really gotten anywhere with it.


Let's say I buy an Xbox 360, but only buy a handful of games full-price, and buy a lot of games used or secondhand, and either scrimp on controllers + memory cards or go third party. That pretty much describes my buying habits. Microsoft would be recovering their loss on the console very slowly with only one or two full-price games sold to me every year, and indeed I doubt they'd come close to recouping it if I bought all my games off Amazon or eBay (which I'm pretty close to doing, as even new $20 clearance games at local stores suck - bad selection, and still too pricey).

No, Microsoft would still recover their costs as long as you were keeping the games that you purchased. Remember one used game = one game that Microsoft already got paid for in licensing. Even if there are 5000 copies of a game on eBay that the original company and Microsoft aren't getting paid for, that's 5000 copies of the game that sold.

If a buyer purchases a Xbox 360 and 20 used games (and does not sell them), he or she takes 20 used copies off the market. It doesn't matter where they came from, they were originally paid for and that is what matters in the long run. I believe that a console on average sells like seven games to people during it's lifespan. That means that if one person gets a console and buys 35 new games for $50.00 and sells all but 7 of them to four other gamers at secondhand prices, the overall sales is evened out and Microsoft is happy to have moved the five consoles, even though four people never bought a game directly from them.

[GameDeals.ca]

the people who pirate stuff, are the people who would not have paid full price anyway... so no real loss in sales, but it establishes a larger customer base (that buys controllers & memory cards, etc.).

That's simply not true. If it was, the Dreamcast should've kicked everyone ass as people were buying it, buying controllers and memory cards and no games... but yet it died.

There is a real loss due to piracy, but that's a whole different conversation and one that it seems most people on these boards don't want to read through (kinda like a lot of this one...) as we've done it before and not really gotten anywhere with it.


I have to disagree. Look at how successful the first Playstation was and it was (arguably) the most pirated system. The dreamcast died because it was ahead of it's time and proved to be inferior in the long run... not to mention the lack of support from 3rd parties sick of Sega's console mistakes.

I would be wrong to say that there is NO loss due to piracy, I'm just saying that it's only a fraction and is made up for with other factors.

Some people who pirate, would buy legitimate if they couldn't pirate, but there are much fewer of them than there are people who pirate stuff that they would never buy anyway. The ones who cause a loss in sales, are compensated by the sales of accessories, the publicity of "consoles sold" numbers that generate other sales, the branding of game franchises that get these people to buy future games, etc. etc. It's building market share... here have PSX games for free... you like Playstation don't you... why not buy our shiny PS2... and let your friends try it... and talk about how much you like our games to others... and so it goes.

[goatdan]

I have to disagree. Look at how successful the first Playstation was and it was (arguably) the most pirated system.

You seem to be stating that the reason that a game system is popular is directly related to people's ability to pirate for it... and to put it frankly, that's horribly inaccurate. The Playstation could have been arguably the most pirated console ever, but not by percentage of people that owned it, just by sheer numbers. On the other hand, the Dreamcast which required zero modifications to pirate on other than a cheap CD burner -- no risking an expensive system, no needing an expensive (in 1995-8ish) CD burner, just download and burn and you're good to go -- was pirated on by a much higher percentage of people than the Playstation. There is proof of this out there, but people have to look it up themselves as I can't explain it beyond that...


Some people who pirate, would buy legitimate if they couldn't pirate, but there are much fewer of them than there are people who pirate stuff that they would never buy anyway. The ones who cause a loss in sales, are compensated by the sales of accessories, the publicity of "consoles sold" numbers that generate other sales, the branding of game franchises that get these people to buy future games, etc. etc. It's building market share... here have PSX games for free... you like Playstation don't you... why not buy our shiny PS2... and let your friends try it... and talk about how much you like our games to others... and so it goes.

Um, no. If Sony had sold 20 million consoles but only 40 million total software units overall, the console would be looked at as pretty damn unsuccessful. But the Playstation moved a record amount of consoles AND software, which meant that the vast majority of their gains came through software sales, not hardware which is a MUCH lower margin business than software.