Complete U.S. Dreamcast set

[jcheatle]

I'm sure this was posted somewhere before, but I haven't been able to find it, so please don't be too pissed at me... :)

I just picked up a Dreamcast over Christmas and decided to start collecting the full set. Are the listed games in the rarity guide the full U.S. released list? Or can somebody point me toward a full list?

Also, how many Sega All-Star games were made? I know of a few, but I'm sure not all of them.

Thanks for any help, just figured it'd be easier to ask than to keep banging my head off the wall.

[keiblerfan69]

PDF file coming right up.

Edit:

Here you go:

http://www.megaupload.com/?d=OHI3F7GH

[jcheatle]

That's just about perfect. Thank you much.

[PapaStu]

Theres 249 official games (two of which are Limited Editions, Shenmue and Sonic Adventure) and 17 SAS games. Theres also a handful of NotForSale games (bundle pack-ins) and a few general variants.

[SEGA-SAMMY]

I would reccomend checking out www.dreamcasthistory.com. They have alot of good information too. :)

[tylerwillis]

Theres 249 official games (two of which are Limited Editions, Shenmue and Sonic Adventure) and 17 SAS games. Theres also a handful of NotForSale games (bundle pack-ins) and a few general variants.

Eh, the list that Sega themselves put out has 248.

http://www.digitpress.com/lists/

They don't count either LE, but do count Sega Swirl (ony available on Web Browser/DC Magazine discs).

[jcheatle]

Well, I just spent an hour plus some browsing Dreamcast History... good site.

I wasn't sure what to make of Sega Swirl either. Like you said, it looked like it was recognized as a singular game, but only available on compilation discs.

Anyway, thanks again for the replies. I'm only at about 20 games so I've got probably years to go, but at least I have a target now.

[Frankie23]

Hmmm. I guess Super Boom Tread Troopers doesn't count then? I thought it was a cute little game, and have always counted it as "real" myself, even though it was only available on the one demo disc.

[goatdan]

They don't count either LE, but do count Sega Swirl (ony available on Web Browser/DC Magazine discs).

The listing of Sega Swirl on that list is extremely strange. Sega Swirl was never, ever released as a standalone disk. It came on some demos as well as Web browsers and the Sega Smash Pack. Having said that, the list does not include the web browsers which there were two 'official looking' releases and one paper sleeve one, so having Sega Swirl by itself makes no sense.

I'd personally suggest looking up everything on Dreamcast History as someone else mentioned ( http://www.dreamcasthistory.com/ ) because they seperate into the label variations (there is also the Hot! New! business if you're going psycho looking to complete the set... like me), all the third party stuff like bleem! and the GOAT Store releases and all the Not For Resale games.

Good luck! It's a great set of games to be collecting!

[McBacon]

Also, if you're into this sorta thing, 24 PAL only releases.

http://www.pelikonepeijoonit.net/articles/dc/uniques2.html

[Canadianzombie]

Here's the Dreamcasthistory link to the list:
http://www.dreamcasthistory.com/cgi-bin/pro/emAlbum.cgi?c=show_thumbs;p=DCH_USA/Downloads/Other
Cheers
Mark

[Austin]

Anyway, thanks again for the replies. I'm only at about 20 games so I've got probably years to go, but at least I have a target now.

You'll actually be surprised how quickly you can put together a collection. With the exception of just a few games (Sonic Adventure LE comes to mind) most dreamcast games are readily available and pretty cheap.

It's a good system to collect for, though! Good luck with it. And send me a message sometime if you ever want to trade. :)

[Griking]

Are the Sega All Stars versions really required for a complete DC collection if you have the standard release of the game?

[ahamilton0953]

is that broswer disk worth anything? I think i have a 2.0 version sealed sitting at home ( which I obviously have no use for )

[goatdan]

Are the Sega All Stars versions really required for a complete DC collection if you have the standard release of the game?

What's a complete collection in your opinion? If you feel that they are, then they are. To me, they and the Not For Resale games are required for the whole thing. So are all of the third party stuff (GOAT releases, bleem!cast, GameShark, etc) and the Web Browsers and Official Dreamcast Magazine demos. I would argue that Sonic LE probably isn't needed as it never saw a wide release (it's like the Star Fox Competition Cart for the SNES in my opinion).

Your mileage may vary.

[GrandAmChandler]

Anything that was a U.S. release could be bought in a U.S. retail store at the time consists of a complete U.S. Collection. IMHO:

Things included in a complete U.S. Dreamcast collection:

All U.S. Releases to retail stores (Toys 'R Us, Gamestop, etc)
Sega All-Stars
Web browsers (different versions)
Hot, New! & Other Variants
TRU Exclusives (Sports 3-Pack)
Limited Editions (Shenmue, Sonic)
Bleemcast discs.

Things Not included:

Foreign games (imports)
Homebrews
Demo Disks

[Jibbajaba]

Are the Sega All Stars versions really required for a complete DC collection if you have the standard release of the game?

What's a complete collection in your opinion? If you feel that they are, then they are. To me, they and the Not For Resale games are required for the whole thing. So are all of the third party stuff (GOAT releases, bleem!cast, GameShark, etc) and the Web Browsers and Official Dreamcast Magazine demos. I would argue that Sonic LE probably isn't needed as it never saw a wide release (it's like the Star Fox Competition Cart for the SNES in my opinion).

Your mileage may vary.

Dude, your games are not third party releases. They are homebrews.

Chris

[goatdan]

Dude, your games are not third party releases. They are homebrews.

What makes them homebrews? We do none of their production from home, they are sold at some real retail stores, and as a matter of fact, I worked with the guy who did bleem a little to get the rights to do them.

Besides, the game industry itself think that they are third party releases. I'm sorry, but when I have people that made Dreamcast games with Sega tell me that they are third party releases and someone on a message board telling me they are homebrews, I'll trust the people in the industry any day.

[Jibbajaba]

Dude, your games are not third party releases. They are homebrews.

What makes them homebrews? We do none of their production from home, they are sold at some real retail stores, and as a matter of fact, I worked with the guy who did bleem a little to get the rights to do them.

Besides, the game industry itself think that they are third party releases. I'm sorry, but when I have people that made Dreamcast games with Sega tell me that they are third party releases and someone on a message board telling me they are homebrews, I'll trust the people in the industry any day.

Goatdan please tell me the nearest gamestop or TRU or Best Buy I can walk into and purchase your games.

A non-officially licensed game that was released well after the system died is NOT a third-party game.

Just don't be disappointed when no one feels the need to buy your games in order to have a complete US collection.

Chris

[goatdan]

Just don't be disappointed when no one feels the need to buy your games in order to have a complete US collection.

So Tengen releases aren't needed for a complete NES set either? They were produced in essentially the same way as those carts, except unlike the Tengen carts we did it in a legal way. A better example would be the early Accolade releases for the Genesis.

I could care less if you "feel the need" to purchase them or not. But stating that the games are "homebrews" when the industry that creates games has personally told me otherwise is wrong to me. I had someone personally tell me by phone that his company looks at them as third party releases, and if he tells me that, I'm going to believe him much more than I'll believe you. Sorry.

And if that means that I think that you need them to have a full US set, well damn. It's my opinion, take it or leave it.

[goatdan]

Goatdan please tell me the nearest gamestop or TRU or Best Buy I can walk into and purchase your games.

A non-officially licensed game that was released well after the system died is NOT a third-party game.

Nice edit.

There are quite a number of stores in Japan that are currently carrying them. I'm working out distribution with a number of independant gaming stores across the United States right now, and they have already arrived in some of them. The system is dead in the US, but we sell more copies of each game in Asia, so we purposely aim for that market. Does that make our games third party Japanese releases to you?

[Jibbajaba]

Both the Tengen and Accolade releases were released while the system was current, and were widely released in stores. I remember seeing them regularly even in drug stores. You are comparing apples and oranges.

Of course a company is going to tell you that they view your product as a "third party release". It's called schmoozing.

If you could stop self-promoting for a minute, you would see that you are just trying to make a quick buck off of DC collectors.

Chris

[Jibbajaba]

Is a famiclone like the NEX a third-party Nintendo release?

Exactly.

Chris

[GrandAmChandler]

Goatdan please tell me the nearest gamestop or TRU or Best Buy I can walk into and purchase your games.

A non-officially licensed game that was released well after the system died is NOT a third-party game.

Nice edit.

There are quite a number of stores in Japan that are currently carrying them. I'm working out distribution with a number of independant gaming stores across the United States right now, and they have already arrived in some of them. The system is dead in the US, but we sell more copies of each game in Asia, so we purposely aim for that market. Does that make our games third party Japanese releases to you?

Here is how I look at it. The Goat releases are not 3rd-Party games, they are homebrews. Just as Atari-age & Packrat video games produces dozens of homebrews, they are not 3rd Party releases.

[Jibbajaba]

Goatdan please tell me the nearest gamestop or TRU or Best Buy I can walk into and purchase your games.

A non-officially licensed game that was released well after the system died is NOT a third-party game.

Nice edit.

There are quite a number of stores in Japan that are currently carrying them. I'm working out distribution with a number of independant gaming stores across the United States right now, and they have already arrived in some of them. The system is dead in the US, but we sell more copies of each game in Asia, so we purposely aim for that market. Does that make our games third party Japanese releases to you?

Here is how I look at it. The Goat releases are not 3rd-Party games, they are homebrews. Just as Atari-age & Packrat video games produces dozens of homebrews, they are not 3rd Party releases.

Exactly. Please explain the difference between AA released and GOAT store releases.

And don't give me that "my games are available in stores" horseshit. I can get a Yobo clone in stores, too. That doesn't make it a third party release.

Chris

[goatdan]

Both the Tengen and Accolade releases were released while the system was current, and were widely released in stores. I remember seeing them regularly even in drug stores. You are comparing apples and oranges.

Of course a company is going to tell you that they view your product as a "third party release". It's called schmoozing.

If you could stop self-promoting for a minute, you would see that you are just trying to make a quick buck off of DC collectors.

I'm sorry if you think that I'm "self promoting," but I do consider these releases third party... because by all definition, they are. I can't make them one at a time, we make them in batches of 1000's. I sell 1000's of copies of the titles. Homebrews, from what I have seen -- and I am a huge supporter of homebrew stuff -- are made individually and are created "in house" by whomever is creating them.

I don't care if you don't like me or whatever over this, but I have a TON of contacts in the industry. If I ever was able to explain exactly how each of our games is made and who approves them, I think that a lot of collectors would be really surprised because most of them don't care about our releases. But I can't because I care more about my industry contacts then I do about any collector's message board, sorry. Without them, I couldn't get the games made. The company that told me that however was most definitely not smoozing me, as they had absolutely no need to. They were stating a fact.

As for the self promoting, if you re-read my message I said that *I* feel that the GOAT Store stuff is part of a complete collection, along with the bleem!cast discs and the GameShark disc. A lot of people would say that the bleem!cast discs are not necessary for a full set, and neither is the gameshark. And a lot of collectors think that Sonic LE is necessary. I don't care. I was stating my opinion as what is a complete set. Considering that I think it varies from collector to collector, I don't understand why you are now saying that what my opinion is doesn't matter.

If it makes you feel better, I keep all of the GOAT Store releases as a subset, just like the Hot! New! games, the bleem!cast discs and the Sega All*Stars. And if that doesn't make you feel better, I'm sorry but I'm not changing my opinion. That's why it's an opinion.

[goatdan]

Exactly. Please explain the difference between AA released and GOAT store releases.

The games are not produced "in house." They are pressed from the same disc plant that actually did the Dreamcast games, as I have found out. Hand in hand with this point is the fact that I cannot place an order for our games of less than 1000 copies. From having talked with both AtariAge and PackRat about their releases, they manufacture them individually and sell them as such.

Our coders are usually active members in the IGDA.

The industry has been very interested in our publishing model. I have been asked to speak about it at a game developers conference, and I have been asked to write an article for Gamasutra on what we do.

People in major companies have contacted me in regards to these games. I've actually been asked by a game company who everyone would recognize if I could say it if I could release a game for a "modern" console that they thought would be a niche title and wouldn't be sold in stores.

I've had serious discussions about licensing over a dozen different properties for inclusion in games, and one of our next releases will be a licensed title. Many of the properties that I had discussions on are games that would be instantly recognizable to the collectors on this board.

Those are the differences from how I see it. Again, I don't care if you see it differently. You can call them homebrews. I'll keep with what the people I care about have told me and call them third party releases.

[s1lence]

Hot! New! and Sega AllStars are technically variants btw.

[goatdan]

Is a famiclone like the NEX a third-party Nintendo release?

Actually, I will state that until just now, I realized I referred to our releases as third-party, and I should've said independant, as that is what I feel that they are. Third party denotes some sort of connection with Sega (in this case) which I can't say that I have, and neither can bleem or GameShark for that matter.

Independant is different. And yes, the NEX is an independant NES product release as much as the U-Force is in my opinion. If I was going for a complete hardware set, I would feel the need to get a NEX.

Would I feel a need to get all the Famiclones? Not unless I believe they are legal releases.

Does that make sense to you now? I'm not trying to start a war and I'm not trying to self promote, but my opinion, and as one of the biggest if not the biggest Dreamcast collector on these boards, I felt that I could weigh in on it.

[hydr0x]

guys, calm down, obviously Third Party is 100% wrong as Third Party's are LICENSED publishers. This doesn't change the fact that these games are NOT homebrew. They are unlicensed games and as thus should count for the complete set just as much as any unlicensed Tengen NES game or Noahs Ark for the SNES.
They are professionally produced and boxed releases coded by real companies, just without the console manufacturer licenseing(sp?) them. There's absolutely NO difference to any other unlicensed game and while i can understand some people arguing about it right now i'm 100% sure the whole community will consider them part of the set in 10 years from now.

[anagrama]

If it was up to me, I'd add another section to the DP database for any "aftermarket" releases - those which were issued after the system's "official" death - the GOAT DC games would fit in here, as would Good Deal Games SegaCD titles or Super Fighter's upcoming Beggar Prince. It doesn't seem right to list them in the main section, but they're not homebrews either.

[Jibbajaba]

Is a famiclone like the NEX a third-party Nintendo release?

Actually, I will state that until just now, I realized I referred to our releases as third-party, and I should've said independant, as that is what I feel that they are. Third party denotes some sort of connection with Sega (in this case) which I can't say that I have, and neither can bleem or GameShark for that matter.

Does that make sense to you now? I'm not trying to start a war and I'm not trying to self promote, but my opinion, and as one of the biggest if not the biggest Dreamcast collector on these boards, I felt that I could weigh in on it.

Yes, "Independent" is a completely accurate description in my opinion.

Chris

[slapdash]

Looking at the Dreamcast History list, I see this:



Sonic Adventure 2 10th Anniversary Pack (Limited Edition)


I think this has come up before, but was it really "released" here? The DP ORG has it listed for Japan, and there's a "non-cartridge item" listing for the extras that doesn't mention a country. What's the story? I've been passing this up time and time again, though usually from somewhere in Asia, but maybe I should have it?

[goatdan]

Looking at the Dreamcast History list, I see this:



Sonic Adventure 2 10th Anniversary Pack (Limited Edition)


I think this has come up before, but was it really "released" here? The DP ORG has it listed for Japan, and there's a "non-cartridge item" listing for the extras that doesn't mention a country. What's the story? I've been passing this up time and time again, though usually from somewhere in Asia, but maybe I should have it?

The description is really the full story here:

Not really a true limited edition in the U.S., it's here because it's...well...strange. These extras are identical to the Japanese release (sans slipcover) and were given away (if the clerk happened to remember) with the purchase of Sonic Adventure 2 at select stores (such as Best Buy).

This is identical to the Japanese release, but was only part of what was in it. Apparently, the Japanese party pack was WAAY overmade, so Sega decided to try getting rid of some of it this way, as it was supposed to be a limited edition thing.

It isn't exactly a "US Release" as much as it is a "US Preorder Goodie." Sort of like the PokEpark DS that WalMart is selling now.

[Richter]

sheesh, leave it to the collector to decide whether or not the GS releases ould be inlcuded.

To me, yes - they got pressed in a pressing facility & have some sort of documentation. I do not include, demoes, hot! new!, or because a release has a lighter shade of blue on the logo

[PapaStu]

Having most of the variants and such and someone who is going for a full DC library I see the GOAT games just as I see the Bleem stuff. 3rd party releases. Things that wernt released under the official sanction of Sega.

For number counts the SAS, NFS and the Hot!New! games don't factor into the official count since there are regular releases for all of them. Yes the Hot!New! are actually different (bug issues and totally different disc art colors) but they didn't get a new catalog number or anything, and neither Sega or Midway saw them as anything but one release. They are just variants for us variant whores. They arn't needed for that complete collection, its just nice overkill.

[SEGA-SAMMY]

edit... never mind.

[slapdash]

[...] the Hot!New! are actually different (bug issues and totally different disc art colors) [...]

Reminds me... The "Hot! New!" was just a sticker, right? So you either need to see the sticker (or not) or the disc (and which colors are which?) to identify if it's the defective one or not, is that correct? Can anyone sum up?

[PapaStu]

[...] the Hot!New! are actually different (bug issues and totally different disc art colors) [...]

Reminds me... The "Hot! New!" was just a sticker, right? So you either need to see the sticker (or not) or the disc (and which colors are which?) to identify if it's the defective one or not, is that correct? Can anyone sum up?

Yes and no.

The first run of them were stickers, but Midway later released them with the Hot!New! burst printed on them (Except for MK:Gold, that one appears to only be a sticker, but the jury is still out). As far as I know or have been told (with help from Goatdan and a few others) this is the Hot!New! breakdown.


Hydro Thunder (Disc is redish {original is blue}Hot!New! sticker OR Hot!New! printed on manual)
Mortal Kombat: Gold (Disc is redish orange {original is yellowish}, Hot!New! sticker on manual only)
NFL Blitz 2000 (Disc is redish orange {original is purplish}, Hot!New! sticker OR Hot!New! printed on manual)
Ready 2 Rumble (Disc is red {original is yellow}, Hot!New! sticker OR Hot!New! printed on manual)

[Poofta!]

my opinion on teh goat thing is thus, its not needed for any complete us dreamcast set, since it was unlicensed. if you collect gameshark products and bleem stuff, then sure then it would count.

HOWEVER, some of the aftermarket independant unlicensed 3rd party releases are actually quite good, so owning them as part of your collection might be worth it, since if you play it, some are worth playing.

[hydr0x]

my opinion on the goat thing is thus, its not needed for any complete us dreamcast set, since it was unlicensed. if you collect gameshark products and bleem stuff, then sure then it would count.

so you also think Tengen is not necessary for a NES set, and Noahs Ark for a SNES set?

[GrandAmChandler]

I don't count anything after the system is officially dead as a U.S. release.

I personally categorize anything that was released after a system has expired as "Homebrew", whether it was produced by official programmers, or printed on the official disc presses used by Sega. It doesn't matter. Anything after death = homebrew.

If this logic wasn't true, then all atariage, atari2600.com, beggar prince for genesis, and sega cd releases would surely count for a complete US collection for their respective systems.

Which they don't in my opinion. Cool to have. But not necessary for a complete U.S. collection.

[DreamTR]

Just a note here: The Goat Store's Dreamcast games are available through Lik-Sang or Play Asia IIRC. I have never seen any of Atari Age or Packrat's stuff sold there...just an observation.

Personally, I don't consider ANY variants part of a complete set, or aftermarket releases. Sure, it's fun to have the aftermarket stuff, but variants and label codes and all stars variations are just a bit much....OMG I WANT THE BLUE AND BLACK COLOR DREAMS VARIANTS BBQRARE!

[goatdan]

NFL Blitz 2000 (Disc is redish orange {original is purplish}, Hot!New! sticker OR Hot!New! printed on manual)

Actually, I had to rescind my original thinking on this one, as the copy that I thought that I had with proof of it being printed (which is sealed) was discovered after much looking as also being a sticker. I still have not found an NFL Blitz without it, although I do believe it would have been printed with it. All of the other games that became All*Stars (well, two - HydroThunder and Ready 2 Rumble) had it printed on the manual at some point.


I don't count anything after the system is officially dead as a U.S. release.

Sega announced that the Dreamcast will not be supported on January 31st, 2001 and that all production of the system will cease. From a list I have, here is what was released after the system was officially dead:

Iron Aces - Feb 6, 2001
Charge N Blast - Feb 7, 2001
NBA Hoopz - Feb 13, 2001
Ducati World Championship - Feb 13, 2001
KAO the Kangaroo - Feb 13, 2001
Record of Lodoss War - Feb 28, 2001
Surf Rocket Racers - Feb 28, 2001
Daytona USA - Mar 12, 2001
Unreal Tournament - Mar 13, 2001
Bangai-O - Mar 21, 2001
Tomb Raider: Last Revalation - Apr 13, 2001
Fighting Force II - Apr 13, 2001
Illbleed - Apr 16, 2001
Spider-Man - Apr 19, 2001
Mars Matrix - Apr 30, 2001
The King of Fighters '99: Evolution - May 10, 2001
Confidential Mission - May 14, 2001
Giga Wing 2 - May 16, 2001
Project Justice - May 16, 2001
18 Wheeler: American Pro Trucker - May 22, 2001
Crazy Taxi 2 - May 28, 2001
Max Steel - May 30, 2001
Worms World Party - Jun 3, 2001
Sonic Adventure 2 - Jun 18, 2001
Stupid Invaders - Jun 28, 2001
Atari Anniversary Edition - Jul 2, 2001
Soldier of Fortune - Jul 24, 2001
Outtrigger - Jul 24, 2001
Flogian Bros. Vol. 1 - Jun 30, 2001
Death Crimson OX - Aug 5, 2001
Razor Freestyle Scooter - Aug 8, 2001
Alien Front Online - Aug 9, 2001
Dragonriders - Aug 9, 2001
Virtua Athlete 2000 - Aug 10, 2001
World Series Baseball 2K2 - Aug 13, 2001
Sega Bass Fishing 2 - Aug 21, 2001
NCAA College Football 2K2 - Aug 29, 2001
Mat Hoffmans Pro BMX - Sep 11, 2001
Ooga Booga - Sep 13, 2001
Heavy Metal: Geomatrix - Sep 13, 2001
NFL 2K2 - Sep 19, 2001
Phantasy Star Online Ver. 2 - Sep 24, 2001
Alone in the Dark: New Nightmare - Sep 24, 2001
NBA 2K2 - Oct 24, 2001
Tennis 2K2 - Oct 24, 2001
Bomberman Online - Oct 30, 2001
Fatal Fury: Mark of the Wolves - Nov 23, 2001
Conflict Zone - December 15, 2001
NHL 2K2 - February 14, 2002

So going by the logic that anything produced after the manufacturing of a console stops and the company declares it dead, there were 49 Sega-produced "homebrew" titles then?

That makes it much easier to complete a set of games then, as about 20% of Sega's games were homebrews and most of those were some of the hardest to get.

[slapdash]

I don't count anything after the system is officially dead as a U.S. release.

I personally categorize anything that was released after a system has expired as "Homebrew"

That's just misleading... The term "homebrew" does not overlap very well with the Goat Store releases. "Small press" is a closer overlap. I sometimes use the term "hobbyist release" to indicate the labor of love aspect, regardless of whether it was homemade or manufactured.

Another way of defining a collection if you don't like "homebrewed" and/or "small press" releases is to only get it if it has a barcode on it. That barcode makes it "official" in a certain sense.

[GrandAmChandler]

NHL 2K2 - February 14, 2002. Published by Sega.

That is the date that sega stopped supporting it. When software publishing was halted. Hardware support /technical support was halted on 1/31/01. Games still were published and given the "okay" by Sega after 1/31/01.

Any titles after 2/14/2002 do not count as Complete U.S. collection releases. IMHO.

[goatdan]

NHL 2K2 - February 14, 2002. Published by Sega.

That is the date that sega stopped supporting it. When software publishing was halted. Hardware support /technical support was halted on 1/31/01. Games still were published and given the "okay" by Sega after 1/31/01.

Any titles after 2/14/2002 do not count as Complete U.S. collection releases. IMHO.

So games just need the Sega approval for you to 'count' them? What if you were told (hypothetically, of course), that Sega was approving our games? Would that suddenly vault them into "real" status?

Of course, as pointed out it means that the Tengen NES games were homebrews by your definition. As were the early Accolade Genesis games. But that's fine by me.

And does that mean that the GOAT Store titles are official Japanese releases as we sell more copies in Asia, we purposely target the Asian market with our releases and there are still Sega-approved games coming out there?

Anyway, I'm sorry to get into this and I do often on various boards that I post on as the official "complete collection" for a console is a tough thing to decide where it is and isn't. Some people say that games that were in development during the supported lifespan of the console count, but anything else doesn't Some would say anything officially produced and sold in masse. And others would say anything that was produced by the main company only. It gets especially interesting with consoles like the 2600, as "official" games were made for it over such a huge period of time and some games that came out were produced in such low quantities that they could practically be considered "homebrew" even in today's numbers. A few manufacturers stated that less than 100 copies of some games that are usually counted in the "official" 2600 game count were actually produced.

So what does it all mean? It's really totally up to each individual. As a collector, yes I do count them. And I think I'm a pretty hardcore Dreamcast collector, so you can take that opinion as you will. But I believe that I'm also the only crazy Jaguar collector that collected EVERY label variation for the Jaguar that I could find, which is something like four copies of Cybermorph and two-three of a LOT of other releases. There probably aren't many collectors out there that would agree with me that I need them all to feel "complete."

[slapdash]

I realize this doesn't apply to the Dreamcast, but think about the Playstation... Sony stopped making games before third parties did. Do you consider it dead at the point Sony stopped making games, or when they stopped taking licensing fees from third parties to make games (which I don't think they've done yet)?

[SEGA-SAMMY]

Unless SEGA licenses those homebrews there not real games. imo :/

Now Radilgy and Under Defeat (licensed bt Sega of Japan) nowthose are real games and anyone who loves there DC should get these two. :) :) :)

[GrandAmChandler]

Here is another valid point.

I believe (and correct me if I am wrong) that the DC Goat releases are also region free correct?

If I am correct, all U.S. DC games are NOT region free.


Is this true?

[Jibbajaba]

This thread is getting ridiculous. Dan, you are getting defensive because some of us refuse to acknowledge "GOAT store" releases as legitimate Dreamcast games that would be part of a complete US collection. I think you understand GAC's points just fine, which are quite valid.

On January 31, 2001 Sega officially stopped "supporting" Dreamcast hardware. On February 14, 2002 Sega released the last first party Dreamcast game, thus ending their support of the system. On THAT DATE, the Dreamcast because a dead system.

Trying to compare your games to Tengen NES releases or "early Accolade releases for the Genesis" is a horseshit argument and you know it, for reasons already given.

If someone is of the belief that your games are neccesary for a complete DC collection, then that's great. More money for you. If not, don't complain. I have a very hard time believing that you aren't smart enough to recognize the dfference between your games and the third party DC released listed in the DP guide.

Chris

[Charlesaway]

Both the Tengen and Accolade releases were released while the system was current, and were widely released in stores. I remember seeing them regularly even in drug stores. You are comparing apples and oranges.

Of course a company is going to tell you that they view your product as a "third party release". It's called schmoozing.

If you could stop self-promoting for a minute, you would see that you are just trying to make a quick buck off of DC collectors.

Chris

Having not read the thread in entirety at this point, I would like to point out that this whole 'quick buck' statement of yours is not based in reality. It implies the product is somehow inferior, or a rip-off, which is not the case.

I will point out I've bought all 3 GOAT releases up until now, and I will also point out that I've enjoyed two of them immensely, far more even than about 90% of my DC games.

Not big on Maquipai, but I bought that for my wife anyhow. The games are professionally presented, factory pressed disks.

Anyhow, if you're going to be one of those completists who buys every release, NFR, Sega All Stars, Bleem! and ODM and demo releases, then you should get the Goat games too.

[s1lence]

I guess Dan answered a question I had, that the Goatstore games are pressed. Are they GD-Roms like the original titles? I'm just wondering myself now that this huge debate has started.

[Charlesaway]

I don't count anything after the system is officially dead as a U.S. release.

I personally categorize anything that was released after a system has expired as "Homebrew", whether it was produced by official programmers, or printed on the official disc presses used by Sega. It doesn't matter. Anything after death = homebrew.


Then when do you consider the system dead? When it was announced that it would cease production? When it actually did?

Or maybe when the retail stream was empty of games? (Hasn't happened around here yet...)

Sega announced the halting of production for Dreamcast systems before they even released their last games, IIRC. NHL2K2 definitely came out after the system was no longer in production.

[Jibbajaba]

Both the Tengen and Accolade releases were released while the system was current, and were widely released in stores. I remember seeing them regularly even in drug stores. You are comparing apples and oranges.

Of course a company is going to tell you that they view your product as a "third party release". It's called schmoozing.

If you could stop self-promoting for a minute, you would see that you are just trying to make a quick buck off of DC collectors.

Chris

Having not read the thread in entirety at this point, I would like to point out that this whole 'quick buck' statement of yours is not based in reality. It implies the product is somehow inferior, or a rip-off, which is not the case.

I will point out I've bought all 3 GOAT releases up until now, and I will also point out that I've enjoyed two of them immensely, far more even than about 90% of my DC games.

Not big on Maquipai, but I bought that for my wife anyhow. The games are professionally presented, factory pressed disks.

Anyhow, if you're going to be one of those completists who buys every release, NFR, Sega All Stars, Bleem! and ODM and demo releases, then you should get the Goat games too.

Nowhere did I suggest that the GOAT store games were of inferior quality. I am suggesting that goatdan's insistance that his releases are needed in order for a collector to have a complete collection are colored by financial reasons, and perhaps a bit of ego.

Perhaps I would feel differently if my image of goatdan weren't one of a constant self-promoter. That may not be the case, but it is the image that I have based on my observations.

If someone feels that the need the GOAT store releases in order to have complete set, then more power to them. But there is an inherent conflict of interest when goatdan makes the argument.

Chris

[Jibbajaba]

I don't count anything after the system is officially dead as a U.S. release.

I personally categorize anything that was released after a system has expired as "Homebrew", whether it was produced by official programmers, or printed on the official disc presses used by Sega. It doesn't matter. Anything after death = homebrew.


Then when do you consider the system dead? When it was announced that it would cease production? When it actually did?

Or maybe when the retail stream was empty of games? (Hasn't happened around here yet...)

Sega announced the halting of production for Dreamcast systems before they even released their last games, IIRC. NHL2K2 definitely came out after the system was no longer in production.

If you actually took the time to read the thread, these questions would be answered for you.

Chris

[slapdash]

Unless SEGA licenses those homebrews there not real games. imo

I hinted at licenses in my post above, as that can be another interesting way to limit a collection, but please stop calling the Goat Store games homebrews -- they're not!

[SEGA-SAMMY]

Unless SEGA licenses those homebrews there not real games. imo

I hinted at licenses in my post above, as that can be another interesting way to limit a collection, but please stop calling the Goat Store games homebrews -- they're not!

I consider them closer to to homebrew side than the official side which is why I called them homebrews. I really don't have a problem calling them "inependant" releases tbh in the future....

[goatdan]

Nowhere did I suggest that the GOAT store games were of inferior quality. I am suggesting that goatdan's insistance that his releases are needed in order for a collector to have a complete collection are colored by financial reasons, and perhaps a bit of ego.

Perhaps I would feel differently if my image of goatdan weren't one of a constant self-promoter. That may not be the case, but it is the image that I have based on my observations.

I'm glad that you feel this way about me. Yes, that's what I was doing. Can we look back at my second posting where I defined what I thought was a "complete DC collection" for a second?



Are the Sega All Stars versions really required for a complete DC collection if you have the standard release of the game?

What's a complete collection in your opinion? If you feel that they are, then they are. To me, they and the Not For Resale games are required for the whole thing. So are all of the third party stuff (GOAT releases, bleem!cast, GameShark, etc) and the Web Browsers and Official Dreamcast Magazine demos. I would argue that Sonic LE probably isn't needed as it never saw a wide release (it's like the Star Fox Competition Cart for the SNES in my opinion).

Your mileage may vary.

Statements of opinion bolded since you apparently have missed them the entire time.


If someone feels that the need the GOAT store releases in order to have complete set, then more power to them. But there is an inherent conflict of interest when goatdan makes the argument.

Thanks Chris. I'll remember that I can no longer be on these boards to discuss Dreamcast matters, even though I would make a bet that I have a larger Dreamcast collection than anyone else here. I'll leave my opinions, as well as my searched for variants (which, if you look through the Hot! New! and All Stars lists have been updated regularly by... me) off the boards. It's obvious that your great sense of what is what in the gaming industry is the only important one.

I would like to point out once again, as happens whenever I am on a message board that talks about a 'complete collection' that it is up to the collector. It isn't up to me. It isn't up to you Chris. It is up to the individual. If someone reads that I think that the games should be included and they agree, great. If they disagree, fine. Your insistance on forcing me to defend my opinion is disappointing at best. That's my opinion. I feel the same way about the Jaguar games that I have, which is my only other "collection" that I consider to be something that I sought out.

Your mileage may vary. I don't care.

[PapaStu]

NFL Blitz 2000 (Disc is redish orange {original is purplish}, Hot!New! sticker OR Hot!New! printed on manual)

Actually, I had to rescind my original thinking on this one, as the copy that I thought that I had with proof of it being printed (which is sealed) was discovered after much looking as also being a sticker. I still have not found an NFL Blitz without it, although I do believe it would have been printed with it. All of the other games that became All*Stars (well, two - HydroThunder and Ready 2 Rumble) had it printed on the manual at some point.

Thats the one Hot!New! that i've got both of. Not only was it my first Hot!New!, but its currently my only printed one.

[goatdan]

Thats the one Hot!New! that i've got both of. Not only was it my first Hot!New!, but its currently my only printed one.

Good to know!

(Damn, that means I need to find another game...)

[PapaStu]

I realize this doesn't apply to the Dreamcast, but think about the Playstation... Sony stopped making games before third parties did. Do you consider it dead at the point Sony stopped making games, or when they stopped taking licensing fees from third parties to make games (which I don't think they've done yet)?

Very true, however it was announced well before the final Sony title that the street dates for the last 3 games, NFL Gameday (Aug 04 and Sony's last title), Madden (Sept 04) and then Fifa (Oct 04) were to be in that order. A nice note to add though, more GH games came out after that (DDR Konamix GH was Jan/Feb 05) and that the DB:GT Final Bout re-release (Sept 04) also beat out the last Sony title. Sony didn't stop support for the system in Oct 04 though. They still had a factory producing PSOne's for the American market and those were still selling very well (numbers I was told was around 4 million units shipped in 04 with another few million slated for 05).

Dead is when the manufacturing company stops production on the system and there are no more officially sanctioned games coming down the pipes. Though the DC was stopping they announced that games would continue to be produced for the next year and then once that last game hit, the system was no more.

[goatdan]

Very true, however it was announced well before the final Sony title that the street dates for the last 3 games, NFL Gameday (Aug 04 and Sony's last title), Madden (Sept 04) and then Fifa (Oct 04) were to be in that order. A nice note to add though, more GH games came out after that (DDR Konamix GH was Jan/Feb 05) and that the DB:GT Final Bout re-release (Sept 04) also beat out the last Sony title. Sony didn't stop support for the system in Oct 04 though. They still had a factory producing PSOne's for the American market and those were still selling very well (numbers I was told was around 4 million units shipped in 04 with another few million slated for 05).

Just out of curiosity, with the whole GQD thing (I think that's the initials), how are those factored into the equation? It seems that they paid Sony in some way to do those re-releases.

Based on that, we probably haven't seen the final American-released Playstation game, although since GQD hasn't stated what games they really did and what hasn't, it's hard to figure out much of anything for those.

It doesn't really matter to me, I guess. I'm dabbling in the long boxes for the Playstation, but not the newer stuff, but that makes the Playstation it's own beast too. I guess hypothetically, someone could still pay the license to make new NES games with Nintendo.

There seems to be a lot of interesting gaming things going on with older consoles. As I said multiple times, it's really up to each collector to decide what to count and how to count it, as the lines of what is collectible and what isn't from a certain era are always going to be blurred, and I expect we'll see more and more 'retro' releases over the coming years, and I expect them to become more and more professional. Independant is how I would (and will) classify all of these, as the lines are already so blurred... Just a few for instances:

Atari gave up all rights for the Jaguar. Telegames had licensed the right to make games for the Jaguar, and made some after it died. So did 4Play / ScatoLOGIC, and part of the reason Atari released the Jaguar was because they refused to produce the cartridges that they were under contract to make for 4Play (they had been sold to Hasbro, who had no idea how to make them). The line on what BattleSphere is then becomes one of the muckiest there are, as it was a game made and licensed by Atari at one point, but independantly produced and released by 4Play / ScatoLOGIC.

The Songbird Productions titles fall into a very similiar category. All except one (Protector SE) were made while Atari was working on the Jaguar and licensed by those companies, but Atari itself had given up the rights to the Jaguar when Songbird Published those titles.

Are those titles "homebrews" or an "important part of a collection" (or both or neither?) I don't know about anyone else, but I think they are as official as anything else, and I own all of them (Telegames, BattleSphere and Songbird's games). Although some of these releases break one of my personal rules for deciding if something is a "homebrew" or not, which is if they can be made one at a time, which I believe they are based on things Carl (of Songbird) has said. So even my rules don't apply in all situations.

This is actually a much larger conversation than just debating the Dreamcast, in my opinion, and it is one that I think will result in everyone essentially agreeing that it has to be up to the individual. For me, my collecting philosphy is that if I really like a console enough to try to collect the full set, that's great. Once I have collected what I have figured is the full set, the second thing that I look for is additions that I didn't necessarily count the first time around. After that is demos / related items (like magazines or promotional material). I've got my two collections -- Jaguar and Dreamcast -- and I consider my Jaguar one complete although I do not own some of the rarities like the Speedster cart that came out for kiddie rides. I do however own every label variation that I have ever found to exist, and at one point wrote the only label variations FAQ for the Jag that there was. It was posted for the longest time, but I never had anyone else use it except me, so I took it down and lost it.

For the Dreamcast, a perfect example of how some might consider me going overboard is that I am not counting my European collection complete until I find every white label that I believe exists. These are essentially betas that were sent to stores and game reviewers. At this point, no one even knows how many were made, or which disks exist other than the ones that have been found. I believe that I have the largest collection there is, and mine is about 125 different discs. To me, PAL isn't complete until I complete those...

Why? Because I want to keep having something to seek for the Dreamcast because I enjoy it as a system so much. If you want to complete a collection just so you can say that you have a complete collection of a certain system, I wouldn't expect anyone goes as hardcore as what I'm trying to accomplish with Dreamcast PAL. I would expect all of the regular PAL releases. And heck, since certain games only came out in certain regions (Taxi 2 was France only), if the collector skipped certain games, I can totally respect that.

I'm not that collector.

Your mileage may vary.

Anyway, rant over and as far as I can see, my part in this discussion is pretty much over. I don't think I can say anything more than what I have lately. If you agree or disagree with what I'm saying, you have every right to. That's why this is a hobby.

[PapaStu]

Very true, however it was announced well before the final Sony title that the street dates for the last 3 games, NFL Gameday (Aug 04 and Sony's last title), Madden (Sept 04) and then Fifa (Oct 04) were to be in that order. A nice note to add though, more GH games came out after that (DDR Konamix GH was Jan/Feb 05) and that the DB:GT Final Bout re-release (Sept 04) also beat out the last Sony title. Sony didn't stop support for the system in Oct 04 though. They still had a factory producing PSOne's for the American market and those were still selling very well (numbers I was told was around 4 million units shipped in 04 with another few million slated for 05).

Just out of curiosity, with the whole GQD thing (I think that's the initials), how are those factored into the equation? It seems that they paid Sony in some way to do those re-releases.

Based on that, we probably haven't seen the final American-released Playstation game, although since GQD hasn't stated what games they really did and what hasn't, it's hard to figure out much of anything for those.

It doesn't really matter to me, I guess. I'm dabbling in the long boxes for the Playstation, but not the newer stuff, but that makes the Playstation it's own beast too. I guess hypothetically, someone could still pay the license to make new NES games with Nintendo.


Good Deal is making agreements with the original developers of the games, not Sony. Then contacting Sony (thru the original publishers) to produce them (which is how it is suppose to go). The PS is dead. Systems are no longer being produced, no new games are coming out, and all official development has stopped. Part of the reason the games are getting reproduced is that there isnt a licensing fee to release any PSOne stuff (game wise) and the fact that Good Deal is footing the entire bill for the games, just getting permission to do so from the original owners makes this possible. Since the games are exact re-releases, the best thing for me is to just note which ones have gotten the re-release and not worry about the rest. The only thing they are doing is boosting market numbers on the games. Its new production, but its not new games, or even modified from the original in any way. 2 years from now, or if there was no board systems like this we'd have never know and no one would really be the wiser for it.

Don't worry too much about your personal habbits. Dangerboy and I are pretty much in the same PS boat that you are with the DC. There will always be something else to get.

[dbiersdorf]

You know I could make some crap ass game that was virtually unplayable and slap it in a jewel case and call it a Dreamcast game. Anyone can, just because the games you make are of a form of quality does not advance them any further then homebrew. Who cares if people buy them, like them, or whatever, the fact that you are an independent game developer, developing games for a system that died in 2002 does not designate them as games needed for a collection. It doesn't matter how you look at the situation, or the definition of a complete collection, there's just no way looking past it.

Seriously you're only including them to promote yourself.

[Griking]

You know I could make some crap ass game that was virtually unplayable and slap it in a jewel case and call it a Dreamcast game. Anyone can, just because the games you make are of a form of quality does not advance them any further then homebrew. Who cares if people buy them, like them, or whatever, the fact that you are an independent game developer, developing games for a system that died in 2002 does not designate them as games needed for a collection. It doesn't matter how you look at the situation, or the definition of a complete collection, there's just no way looking past it.

Seriously you're only including them to promote yourself.


And so It'll begin all over again... :frustrated:

[Kittens_for_Peace]

7 out of 9 kittens agree. New Dreamcast games are cool, regardless of whether they are homebrews, thirdparty, or whatever.

http://taint.org/xfer/2004/kittens.jpg

[goatdan]

Good Deal is making agreements with the original developers of the games, not Sony. Then contacting Sony (thru the original publishers) to produce them (which is how it is suppose to go). The PS is dead. Systems are no longer being produced, no new games are coming out, and all official development has stopped. Part of the reason the games are getting reproduced is that there isnt a licensing fee to release any PSOne stuff (game wise) and the fact that Good Deal is footing the entire bill for the games, just getting permission to do so from the original owners makes this possible. Since the games are exact re-releases, the best thing for me is to just note which ones have gotten the re-release and not worry about the rest. The only thing they are doing is boosting market numbers on the games. Its new production, but its not new games, or even modified from the original in any way. 2 years from now, or if there was no board systems like this we'd have never know and no one would really be the wiser for it.

Okay, I was wondering what people thought about that whole thing that were big collectors. In a way, "games are still coming out." In another way, nothing else is happening.


Don't worry too much about your personal habbits. Dangerboy and I are pretty much in the same PS boat that you are with the DC. There will always be something else to get.

That's what I thought collecting was all about?


You know I could make some crap ass game that was virtually unplayable and slap it in a jewel case and call it a Dreamcast game. Anyone can, just because the games you make are of a form of quality does not advance them any further then homebrew. Who cares if people buy them, like them, or whatever, the fact that you are an independent game developer, developing games for a system that died in 2002 does not designate them as games needed for a collection. It doesn't matter how you look at the situation, or the definition of a complete collection, there's just no way looking past it.

Seriously you're only including them to promote yourself.

*sigh* I guess I can only collect what others tell me to. Fine, I don't collect the GOAT Store releases, or the bleem releases anymore. I'll just happen to have them on my Dreamcast shelves with the other 500+ games that I currently have for them.

Do I also include my Songbird Jaguar games in my Jaguar collection because I want to promote how great Carl Forhan is? Or may I include those? Please tell me sir.

I also have 12 different 2600 homebrews. Can I not count these in my collection either? I should throw them out?

You know what? I'm just going to keep doing exactly what I'm doing, and you can do what you want too. If you don't want my games that are "virtually unplayable and slap it in a jewel case and call it a Dreamcast game"s, I don't care. But they are part of my collection.

Now please drop it. Bring on more kittens or something.

[GrandAmChandler]

I am sorry but I don't think my question has been answered yet.

1. The goatstore Dreamcast releases are multi-region are they not? Seriously, I want to know. If so, I believe this is what would separate the goatstore and other DC later releases from what I think is a complete U.S. set.

2. Also, are they GD-ROMs?


It is up to the collector to what counts towards a complete set.

[Leo_A]

"1. The goatstore Dreamcast releases are multi-region are they not? Seriously, I want to know. If so, I believe this is what would separate the goatstore and other DC later releases from what I think is a complete U.S. set. "

What's the logic in this?

I consider a complete US released Dreamcast collection everything released by Sega and everything licensed by Sega. But I think people miss out when they ignore things like homebrew 2600 games and these, since as has been pointed out they're often just as good, if not better, than many of the games we consider official.

[portnoyd]

The obvious answer to the main question of the thread is no.

Games regarded as part of the complete collection for a system have to be released in the generally accepted lifespan of the system. Tengen and early Accolade titles do count, licensed or not. That was the whole Sachen argument. They weren't - the end. The Dreamcast is dead. The window is closed.

Sorry to beat the dead horse, but I thought this was just your run-of-the-mill DC thread.

[goatdan]

I'm going to ignore any further debate in this thread over if you can count any particular items in a collection or not. As I've said, and as it seems most people agree with, it is up to each individual collector to decide what they want to collect. If you feel that the games I have been involved in, the Jaguar games Songbird / 4Play has done, the 2600 homebrews from AtariAge and Packrat or the Sega CD games from Good Deal Games count, cool. If not, cool. Everyone is right.


I am sorry but I don't think my question has been answered yet.

1. The goatstore Dreamcast releases are multi-region are they not? Seriously, I want to know. If so, I believe this is what would separate the goatstore and other DC later releases from what I think is a complete U.S. set.

The GOAT Store Publishing releases are not region-specific. Once again, this has to do with a simple matter of costs. As I have stated, we sell more games in the Asian marketplace than we do in the US marketplace. It would not make financial sense for us to do two different releases for each region, although the regional lock-out code is something that we could add to our games if we desired.


2. Also, are they GD-ROMs?

The games are not on GD-ROMs, although that isn't because we don't have access to do them on GD-ROMs. I have very reliable stats on how many Dreamcasts can not run CD-ROM media, and with the possible exception of the Dreamcasts being bundled in Japan from Sega now, we won't run into any problems with them. Therefore, there is literally no functional difference that putting our games onto a GD-ROM would bring, except for perhaps disabling the soundtrack ability that we have built into them (I've never looked at that, but all of the releases with the exception of Feet of Fury have soundtracks on them if you want to play them. I don't know if CD-players can read GD-ROM music files offhand.)

The cost difference of putting the games on GD-ROM would mean that the games would be approximately five to six times more expensive to produce, and would reflect this in their cost -- essentially, the releases would cost around $60.00 per release, and would probably also be restricted by a regional lock out.

For that specific reason, we decided not to go that route.


It is up to the collector to what counts towards a complete set.

Thank you :)

[hydr0x]

The GOAT Store Publishing releases are not region-specific. Once again, this has to do with a simple matter of costs.

sorry but here's where you are loosing me too, the reasons don't matter at all, a multi-region releases that is sold in at least europe+us in the same packaging with absolutely no difference can't be part of either the US or the PAL set