Why did Mortal Kombat not pass the test of time?

[Cmtz]

Street Fighter will now be on xbox live and all I can think about is why did MK not make a lasting impression like the one SFII did? As a teen I would always play MK at the arcades and would love to compete against other people. What did SFII have that MKI or MKII did not have?

[njiska]

Well i for one beg to differ. MKII left a huge impression on a lot of people, the main reason that SFII trumps it is that SFII was first.

[Cmtz]

Well i for one beg to differ. MKII left a huge impression on a lot of people, the main reason that SFII trumps it is that SFII was first.

Well, yes but most of the impression was faded away, but people still feel giddy when they play SFII.

[njiska]

Well i for one beg to differ. MKII left a huge impression on a lot of people, the main reason that SFII trumps it is that SFII was first.

Well, yes but most of the impression was faded away, but people still feel giddy when they play SFII.

Well i agree with you that on a whole SFII tends to make more people giddy, it is relative. I can vouche that there is a large MKII crowd in serveral regions of Canada that i've visited. I myself still get giddy.

But what's really amazing about SFII isn't that it causes people to get giddy, but rather that even after 17 individual releases by Capcom it's still has that effect. I mean that series has been milked like an old heffer, but for some reason it still has some magic.

I largely attribute it to the fact that SFII was the first mainstream game of it's kind and you never forget your first.

[Dji]

I have been a huge fan of both series, for different reasons, since childhood. It is widely believed that Street Fighter II requires more skill to play, and I agree with that. It's quite fun to play against other fighting game fans with a game so deep that one can still learn much about it 15 years later. On the other hand, Mortal Kombat is often ridiculed as a button-mashing, cheap tactics-using, gimmick of a game. However, it is quite easy to learn, and as such, even (especially?) non-fighting game fans can enjoy it greatly. I play MKII with some of my friends, while they wouldn't touch SFII with a ten-foot pole. They never could do a Dragon Punch, ever. The opposite is also true: one of my friends despises MK, but loves SFII. The situation is quite similar nowadays with Virtua Fighter (SF) and Dead or Alive (MK), with fans of one series generally disliking the other one.

[nik]

They went 3D.

That's all it took for me, all the 3D mortal Kombats are crap! It would kick ass if they just made it more fluid, added tons of effects.

[Graham Mitchell]

I'm basically in agreement with Dji. The designers of SFII made the game very open ended. It's difficult to describe, but it comes down to the fact that there's no set way that you have to play the game in order to win. You don't need to memorize a ton of combos or come up with a way to keep your enemy from ever standing up in order to be successful. You can do that if you want, but you don't have to.

The gameplay in MKI is much more simplistic; there's only one or two combos that are worth bothering with, and the AI is pretty easily outsmarted. It's just not that deep of a game to begin with (although I used to think it was). Onthe other hand, I feel that the gameplay of MKII (and any MK games thereafter) is way too dependent on combos and memorizing thousands of moves. It's just complex, and not that much fun for a person who doesn't want to dedicate that much time to it.

I dig SFII still; it's the only fighting game I like because I feel like it's a different game every time I play it. It relies heavily on developing an instinct rather than planning routines ahead of time that border on cheating.

[EnzoSangiorgio]

I'm going to have to say quality won.
Mortal Kombat was always just a controversial gorefest, not a quality fighter.

[Ed Oscuro]

SF stayed 2D, and MK went 3D, but it never seemed to be one of the best 3D fighters.

[Jumpman Jr.]

I think Sothy could answer that with one word:
Gore

[Mr.FoodMonster]

If you havn't gone back and played any of the MK's pre-current gen, do so. After 3 minutes of play, you'll see why.

Go back and play SFII. Try to put it down after the first fight.

The original MK games SUCKED. Big time. They relyed totally on pre-set combo chains, or incredible cheap-ness (Scorpion "get over here!"uppercut, jump, airkick, "get over here!"upercut ect.) I think the main apeal was that it was the first widely recognized violent game. That game is the cause for a ratings system to begin. Thats probably why it was remembered so well. UMK3 was alright, but still not very good.

[gepeto]

These are my Thoughts.

While both were popular Mortal Kombat had a huge boost with its gimmicky Blood and fatalities. The fighters as well as the matches were very stiff and sometimes unplayable. The pallets were swapped between fighter so that cut down on originality and expandability. Ex scorpion /sub zero /smoke. The morphs gave it life the new characters gave it legs. To me even after hundred of hours of playing it was an overhyped and limited series.

Street fighter to me has always evolved sometimes good sometimes bad. The series was an intense chess match my move your counter move. Opps you messed up hello boom. The matches are lighting fast and over the top.

The characters most were throughly playable and each had a fluid style. I remember seeing dhalsim for the first time thinking you got to be kidding. The bosses from Bison to Akuma's raging demon are fierce.

I also remember sf held the number 1 spot at the arcade for over 2 years. at the times alot of games were trying to gore you out. Congress was all over the gaming industry definately put the heat and spotlight on mortal kombat. Rebel kids were all over it.

To me the pinnacle was mortal kombat 3 for the N64 due to cartridge format the load times were nonexsistent.

I think the thing that did the most damage to the streetfighter series was believe it or not the Marvel Vs Capcom series. Marvel Vs capcom took the series format and went super over the top and was wildy sucessful.

The street fighter series kinda lost its identity I personally believe the capcom team didn't know where to go. Do streetfighters now want extreme over the top insane combos etc. Plus repetitve compliations hurt. It is a shame because we were always and will still be here ready to hit xbox live when needed.

The Streetfighter series will alway be in my blood when I am sixty five I be throwing down. Mortal kombat will be with me as well but not as memorable.

I like the midway classic2 ps2 version of mortal kombat2/3
but the one included with the collectors edition to me was butt and unplayable.

[Yamazaki]

Like already said - SF2 is still a masterpiece when it comes to gameplay.
I mean there are still SF2T-tournaments in Europe, USA and japan.

I visited arcades in Japan where up to 5 SF2T cabs are crowded by dozens of people!

[njiska]

If you havn't gone back and played any of the MK's pre-current gen, do so. After 3 minutes of play, you'll see why.

Go back and play SFII. Try to put it down after the first fight.

The original MK games SUCKED. Big time. They relyed totally on pre-set combo chains, or incredible cheap-ness (Scorpion "get over here!"uppercut, jump, airkick, "get over here!"upercut ect.) I think the main apeal was that it was the first widely recognized violent game. That game is the cause for a ratings system to begin. Thats probably why it was remembered so well. UMK3 was alright, but still not very good.

HEY! How could you forget about Night Trap. lol

[Push Upstairs]

Night Trap

Now that is a game that didnt pass the test of time.



I can admit that SF2 was better in quality which i think helps it stand up over time.

And this means alot coming from someone who doesnt like SF2 or fighting games in general.

[Jorpho]

SF stayed 2D, and MK went 3D, but it never seemed to be one of the best 3D fighters.

SF went 3D just like MK did. Doesn't anyone remember Street Fighter EX? The difference, I suppose, is that SF went back.

The other difference is that for a very long time there has almost always been some sort of 2D SF game in arcades.

[Xizer]

MK3/UMK3/MK Trilogy are still some of the best fighting games ever. They even kick Street Fighter's ass.

[chrisbid]

capcom was more committed to fighting games than midway.

mk had a more casual appeal

digitized graphics look extremely dated now

i dont think either has "stood the test of time" in the mind of mainstream casual gamers. hardcore fans are going to go for the deeper game, which is sf.

[scooby105]

I always liked MKII a lot. I remember playing it in the arcade all the time, although not as much as SFII. You had to know what you were doing when playing MKII a bit more than SFII.

I remember the first time I played MKII some guy beat me while talking to his friend and not even looking at the screen. Once you got the hang of MKII and played against people of your ability level, it was a really fun game.

I think MKII would do very well on XBOX Live. There are tons of people that played it in the arcades that would love to play it again. I'm not really sure why we haven't seen it yet.

Are the Acclaim games still up for auction because of the bankruptcy thing or whatever the problem was? I found this link:
http://maltzauctions.com/acclaimip.htm
and some various articles talking about games being up for sale. Maybe that's a reason they haven't been re-released?

[retroman]

put MK2 online and sell it cheap. I would play it over SF2 online anyday.

[boatofcar]

Two words: Block Button.

[DreamTR]

I guess this argument should depend on which VERSION of SFII people are talking about, and which version of MK you are talking about.

A lot of people responding to this really have no clue about how either of the game engines work.

Yes, Street Fighter has a larger degree of difficulty, but saying that because MK has a "block" button, that made it less of a serious series?

Ever hear of a little series called Virtua Fighter? I believe that takes much more skill than both the SF and MK series.

SFII and MKI BOTH do not stand the test of time. Both are pretty broken in general, and do not play well.

MK II and SFII Hyper Fighting DO stand the test of time. AS does UMK3, which was probably the best of the series to most MK players.

MK3 and MK Trilogy? Uh. No. UMK3 "fixed" all of the problems that MK3 had (Sub-Zero, Kabal, Cyrax, etc) and MK Trilogy was more of a home system funfest with 70% plus combos.

Anyways, MK sells better than SF nowadays, and is online as well....so if you think otherwise, just because the series is not in the arcade anymore, does not mean it's gone....

[buttasuperb]

MK2 is awesome. I remember the first time I saw it at the arcade, my reaction was holy shit.

Of course it's not as good as SSF2x, but not many games are.

[hydr0x]

because MK was a rather dull game to begin with, nough said

[Bloodreign]

I play both equally on Kawaks and MAME respectively as well as on their Collection packs (save for MK 1 which my friend has with his MK Deception game, mine was the regular MKD pack), while I don't much care for how buggy Midway Arcade Treasures versions of MK 2 and 3 are, I can't always pull off a move in SF II as well as I can in an MK game, apparently my thumb just seems to have more trouble pulling off a hadouken, yet has no trouble pulling off Sub Zero's spine rip fatality (both use the same forward, down forward motion). If I do a hadouken in any SF game it always seems to be random, and doesn't always happen at the right time (usually before someone jump kicks me, as the hadouekn if missed leaves you wide open).


I was a teenager during both the MK era and the SF II era, while the violence pulled me in, the blood factor played into it as well. I eventually learned the MK fighters patterns enough to be able to beat them a little easier, something to this day I still cannot do in a SF game. MK II with certain fighters you could lure an enemy into a trap (i.e. Scorpion, duck down till said opponent gets close to you, jump away, they'll in turn follow you a second later, you'll be landed by then, spear, uppercut, rinse repeat. Even a well timed jump kick from a certain distance is recommended as they'll try to high kick you down, in turn opening theirselves to the jumpkick. Patterns are best done with Scorpion, Sub-Zero, Reptile, Shang Tsung, Johnny Cage, Jax, and Baraka) and theoreticlly usually walk away with a double flawless.

[sabre2922]

It all comes down to ONE thing: GAMEPLAY and Streetfighter 2 has that IN SPADES. The older Mortal Kombats were OK at the time they were released (hell I still like MK 2 arcade and Trilogy on the Playstation) but the preset gameplay mechanics just dont stand up to years of experimentation , different personal gameplay strategies etc like the classic 2-D Capcom and SNK fighters do.

Great Gameplay in a videogame is everlasting , prime examples: Super Mario Bros. 2-D , Mario 64 3-D, traditional Capcom 2-D fighters -ESPECIALLY THE STREETFIGHTERS (2 and up), the Capcom vs. SNKs , Marvel vs. Capcom etc, Virtua fighters and Tekkens 3-D.

Funny thing is I would still KILL for an arcade perfect port of the original Killer Instinct arcade game even though it is considered by many to be FAR outdated and looked upon in the same light by many gamers (especially noobs) as the older 2-D Mortal Kombats, but I disagree in that new combos have constantly been discovered over the years by hardcore KI fans but that is all an old arguement sooo.......
AAA well implemented Gameplay is timeless and very difficult to achieve even for the most talented programmers and developers of the videogame industry.

[poloplayr]

IMHO, Mortal Kombat relied greatly on shockvalue and SF relied on gameplay. Surface over substance.

[DreamTR]

The MK series sans part 1 can be VERY deep at expert levels.

I am still assuming that the majority of players here only think that is has "shock value with gore" and no one can come up with anything concrete about gameplay with the MK series because, well, they just didn't know how to play it properly.

At one time, there were MORE people playing MK2/3UMK3 than SF, because well, Capcom kept recycling the game engine, rather than it evolving. Which is why many players quit after Super Street Fighter II came out.....

Also, as for Special Moves, the MK series does NOT rely on motions contrary to popular belief. If was entirely based on TAPS, including Sub Zero's freeze, etc.

There were many trick in the MK series that you could do to really play mind games on players like the SF series such as Scorpions spear from a stationary crouch position, Liu Kang's High Fireball from crouch (mind you, these moves come out instantly and basically surprise your opponent when performed this way, or the instant Johnny Cage walkiing forward razor kick, or Kung Lao instant dive kick.

There are lots of spacing and distancing portions of gameplay that are CLASSIC, and just as deep as the SF series if you took time to understand it.

I am not syaing the mK series is BETTER than SF, but it's not predetermined combos and memorization. It's also not "who can beat the computer and master the game" either. Human vs Human interaction is the test of how well you can play the game. I can assur eyou that anyone that tries to do silly auto bombos in UMK3 will get beat pretty bad by those that know the engine well enough and other gameplay tactics.

[Dire 51]

Interesting that this topic came up shortly after I put up an article on the OPCFG about what I feel are the ten most overrated games. SF2 and MK1 both made the list. Not that I think this topic has anything to do with my article, of course.

[Griking]

capcom was more committed to fighting games than midway.

This was my first thought. Capcom basically won't let you forget about SF. The come out with a new sequel, variant, collection, controller every year. Midway didn't really milk the franchize as much as Capcom did.

[njiska]

Is it me or does every Tekken/DOA arguement play out exactly the same as this one SFII/MK one?

[Zing]

Funny thing is I would still KILL for an arcade perfect port of the original Killer Instinct arcade game

Both KI games have been flawlessly emulated by MAME for quite some time. The ROMs and hard drive images are easily obtainable and not that large in size.

This was also one of my dreams, along with perfect emulation of MK2 (which was achieved many years ago).

[evildead2099]

It all comes down to ONE thing: GAMEPLAY and Streetfighter 2 has that IN SPADES. The older Mortal Kombats were OK at the time they were released (hell I still like MK 2 arcade and Trilogy on the Playstation) but the preset gameplay mechanics just dont stand up to years of experimentation , different personal gameplay strategies etc like the classic 2-D Capcom and SNK fighters do.

Great Gameplay in a videogame is everlasting , prime examples: Super Mario Bros. 2-D , Mario 64 3-D, traditional Capcom 2-D fighters -ESPECIALLY THE STREETFIGHTERS (2 and up), the Capcom vs. SNKs , Marvel vs. Capcom etc, Virtua fighters and Tekkens 3-D.

I agree with that message, although I do feel that MK2 and MK3/UMK3/MK Trilogy are deeper than most gamers give it credit for.

I also agree with the statement that Capcom doesn't want us to forget about SF2. Unlike Midway, Capcom keeps releasing compilations and anniversary editions of SFII on a relatively regular basis.

[Tan]

i'll take Samaurai showdown II to either of those any day....

[AB Positive]

I'm a KOF fanboy at heart, so perhaps I may be best at being unbiased on this...

SFII is the deep game. It's the one with inifinite strategies and inifinite patience needed. It has appeal to the competitive gamer.

MK is the casual gamer favorite. It's got that immediate humiliation fatality move, unlimited combinations, and extremely broken gameplay, but broken for everyone. In a way, it balances out, especially with MKII.

Both series are important but the question is more what you want. If you want a game you can get a few friends over with a few beers and to have fun with, go with MK.

If you want to have a tournament with serious gamers AND the casual folk, but the casuals know they'll be knocked out by skill early, go SFII.

In my opinion, both are worthy of this argument, but I'd NEVER do a serious tourney with the MK series.




That's my 2 cents.

-AB+

[Retsudo]

The MK series sans part 1 can be VERY deep at expert levels.





Also, as for Special Moves, the MK series does NOT rely on motions contrary to popular belief. If was entirely based on TAPS, including Sub Zero's freeze, etc.





.
O_O When did Subzero's freeze become a tap tap move? It's the same as Ryu's fireball. There are plenty of half circle motions in MK.

[DreamTR]

I did not read said article about MKI and SF2 being among the "ten most overrated series" of all time, but anyone that thinks SF2 is overrated is really a bit misdirected, sorry to say.

Street Fighter II paved the WAY for the fighting game genre today. Sure, there was Karate Champ and SFI, but NOTHING like what SFII did to revitalize the game industry. You have to be completely naive to not realize the impact that series had on revitalizing arcades today.


Also, KI is not "flawlessly" emulated, the speed is off on the gameplay. Anything on these emulators is just that, "emulated". There are very minute and even distinctive differences for many games (MAME and Final Burn, etc) these days...

[kirin jensen]

Mk had cookie cutter characters.

It also relied on specific move combos more than SFII.

This meant that you could tap the button like a maniac in SFII and occasionally win even if you were an incompetent like me (long as you played Chun Li, anyway) whereas MK was all about the move combos - you didn't know'em, you were screwed.

Plus Chun Li was cuter that Sonja...

[sabre2922]

I did not read said article about MKI and SF2 being among the "ten most overrated series" of all time, but anyone that thinks SF2 is overrated is really a bit misdirected, sorry to say.

Street Fighter II paved the WAY for the fighting game genre today. Sure, there was Karate Champ and SFI, but NOTHING like what SFII did to revitalize the game industry. You have to be completely naive to not realize the impact that series had on revitalizing arcades today.


Also, KI is not "flawlessly" emulated, the speed is off on the gameplay. Anything on these emulators is just that, "emulated". There are very minute and even distinctive differences for many games (MAME and Final Burn, etc) these days...

AGREED

Streetfighter 2 is not overrated

Maybe "overused" or "pimped to the max" by Capcom but I think there are many reasons for that , the least of wich Streetfighter 2 is still damn fun to play and IMO feels fresh even after all these years for most gamers that werent winged on 3-D and even MK is fun for a quick round or two with a few friends and some beer.

I happen to think that many of the Capcom and SNK games will stand the test of time for MANY years to come much more so than a majority of the 3-D fighters and the millions of Streetfighter wanna-be games that were released back in the '90s.

[boatofcar]

I guess this argument should depend on which VERSION of SFII people are talking about, and which version of MK you are talking about.

A lot of people responding to this really have no clue about how either of the game engines work.

Yes, Street Fighter has a larger degree of difficulty, but saying that because MK has a "block" button, that made it less of a serious series?



Because obviously my opinion has nothing to do with why I think one is better than the other. :roll:

Seriously, when you ask why game x has stood the test of time over game y, you're going to look to your personal experiences first. Just because a game requires more skill, aka Virtua Fighter, doesn't mean it's going to stand the test of time better. Why is Ms. Pac Man more prevalent in pizza parlors than Defender?

[DreamTR]

Because most fighting game players opinions DON'T MATTER on this subject because they don't knwo the games thoroughly enough to make a decent decision. When all I see from this thread is regarding "eye candy" and "fatalities", that alone is enough to say that it's what people have witnessed and not actually taken the time to learn the intricacies of the game.

Virtua Fighter, SF, MK, if you want to be honest, look at the LAST versions of EACH GAME that have been released. Capcom Fighting Evolution? You've GOT to be kidding me. Capcom has been recycling sprites and not doing much with gameplay for YEARS. At the very LEAST, the MK series has tried to go with a creative route while attemptin to keep some of the MK gameplay. Granted MK Deception has its problems like any other SF, at least it's much better received (as the last MKs have been) and sold much better than the last SF versions. SO when I say the MK series (not MK1) stands up better nowadays than the SF2 series, it makes mosre sense because, well, it's not outdated recycles sprites with subpar gameplay.

AS for Virtua Fighter, that series KEEPS evolving, and sells pretty well out here as well. It's a shame that only arcades in Japan seem to have the right idea (and in some parts of Europe) about the series.

Keep in mind, VF and MK sell better on a WHOLE than the SF series as of late. Cpacom needs to step up to the plate and make something worthwhile instead of CVS2 with its pile of glitches and roll cancelling, and CFE, which is one big boring, slow, sloppy game.

[izret101]

This is going to be a long one i would have actually liked to respond to more of the things brought up. I think i put all the quotes in order of the way they where posted too.


They went 3D.

That's all it took for me, all the 3D mortal Kombats are crap! It would kick ass if they just made it more fluid, added tons of effects.

Ed Boon has admitted that the game lost something going 3d. Fighting mechanics since it went 3d got screwed with the removal/extreme weakening of aerial moves/attacks. Something they are working to bring back with MK: Armageddon.


The gameplay in MKI is much more simplistic; there's only one or two combos that are worth bothering with, and the AI is pretty easily outsmarted. It's just not that deep of a game to begin with (although I used to think it was). On the other hand, I feel that the gameplay of MKII (and any MK games thereafter) is way too dependent on combos and memorizing thousands of moves. It's just complex, and not that much fun for a person who doesn't want to dedicate that much time to it.

I dig SFII still; it's the only fighting game I like because I feel like it's a different game every time I play it. It relies heavily on developing an instinct rather than planning routines ahead of time that border on cheating.

As for it being easy did you ever bother trying to turn up the difficulty? It does get harder if you actually try.
As for being a "deep" game it is a fighter. And as for a story line of a fighting game goes can someone tell me about the story line of the SF series? I have read nearly 200 pages of story transcipts from the MK series that is considered canon by Boon and Vogel.
And i don't know where you guys are coming up with this memorizing combos stuff. People pul off much longer combos in SF than in MK.


If you havn't gone back and played any of the MK's pre-current gen, do so. After 3 minutes of play, you'll see why.

Go back and play SFII. Try to put it down after the first fight.

They relyed totally on pre-set combo chains, or incredible cheap-ness (Scorpion "get over here!"uppercut, jump, airkick, "get over here!"upercut ect.)

I could be wrong but i am pretty sure that more of the classic MK games have been released on current gen than the classic SF games. 2&3 released in the form of Midway Arcade Treasures(MK 1 also packed with the Kollector's Edition games). SF2(?) released on Capcom Classics.(If i am wrong let me know. I will admit it) And again on 360 Live.

And i can be accused of using that combo to piss off my cousins, bro and friends. And what exactly is a non preset combo chain? I would assume any combo chain would be preset since it would have to be known and programmed into the game in order to work appropriately.
And in every fighting game i have played you can grab a character and use a couple moves to win with.


These are my Thoughts.

Street fighter to me has always evolved sometimes good sometimes bad. The series was an intense chess match my move your counter move. Opps you messed up hello boom. The matches are lighting fast and over the top.

To me the pinnacle was mortal kombat 3 for the N64 due to cartridge format the load times were nonexsistent.

You had fair points and ones that made good sense too.
Your right that they may have kinda backed themselves into a corner with MvC and people wanting more ultra over the top fighting like that.
You say its like a chess match with move countering possible at any given point. Wouldn't this counter everyones arguement saying you could pick up this game and button mash to a win every know and then?
And MK3 did not come out on N64. I still haven't played MK4 on the N64 which i wopuld assume was the one you meant.



SF stayed 2D, and MK went 3D, but it never seemed to be one of the best 3D fighters.

SF went 3D just like MK did. Doesn't anyone remember Street Fighter EX? The difference, I suppose, is that SF went back.

The other difference is that for a very long time there has almost always been some sort of 2D SF game in arcades.

I didn't know SF whent 3d...



capcom was more committed to fighting games than midway.

This was my first thought. Capcom basically won't let you forget about SF. The come out with a new sequel, variant, collection, controller every year. Midway didn't really milk the franchize as much as Capcom did.

Hmm i see 57 Mortal Kombat games across 20 handheld systems.
I see 38 Street Fighter games across 14 platforms.
That of course does not include the arcade cabs DP has listed or games that have characters from either series that does not have Street Fighter or Mortal Kombat in the games title.(Assuming there are any for SF i know there are non for MK)
It does include titles from each series DP is missing.
And the list is US only. It also contains greatest/platinum hits and players choice titles. Which only MK seems to have. Man SF must be making one hell of a impression on gamers.


Mk had cookie cutter characters.

It also relied on specific move combos more than SFII.

This meant that you could tap the button like a maniac in SFII and occasionally win even if you were an incompetent like me (long as you played Chun Li, anyway) whereas MK was all about the move combos - you didn't know'em, you were screwed.

Plus Chun Li was cuter that Sonja...

MK had pallette swaps of Ninjas and then Cyborgs. Each had their own moves. And I think you may have confused MK and SF. SF is known for its unholy combos and people spending years and years memorizing characters and MK is falsely accused of being for button mashing anybody can win gamers.
Oh yea and her name was is Sonya ;)

Anyone who read thru all of this thanks for doing so and acknowledging me. :)
I did make some interesting points i would hope.

[izret101]

Because most fighting game players opinions DON'T MATTER on this subject because they don't knwo the games thoroughly enough to make a decent decision. When all I see from this thread is regarding "eye candy" and "fatalities", that alone is enough to say that it's what people have witnessed and not actually taken the time to learn the intricacies of the game.

Virtua Fighter, SF, MK, if you want to be honest, look at the LAST versions of EACH GAME that have been released. Capcom Fighting Evolution? You've GOT to be kidding me. Capcom has been recycling sprites and not doing much with gameplay for YEARS. At the very LEAST, the MK series has tried to go with a creative route while attemptin to keep some of the MK gameplay. Granted MK Deception has its problems like any other SF, at least it's much better received (as the last MKs have been) and sold much better than the last SF versions. SO when I say the MK series (not MK1) stands up better nowadays than the SF2 series, it makes mosre sense because, well, it's not outdated recycles sprites with subpar gameplay.

AS for Virtua Fighter, that series KEEPS evolving, and sells pretty well out here as well. It's a shame that only arcades in Japan seem to have the right idea (and in some parts of Europe) about the series.

Keep in mind, VF and MK sell better on a WHOLE than the SF series as of late. Cpacom needs to step up to the plate and make something worthwhile instead of CVS2 with its pile of glitches and roll cancelling, and CFE, which is one big boring, slow, sloppy game.

^^Good Points^^

There has never been a MK game recalled due to glitchyness.
It shouldn't be hard to keep a 2D game from glitching they have a decade+ of experience.

And Virtua Fighter and DoA it seems are the new heavy hitters in the realm of fighters.
Mortal Kombat is still plugging along but i think they are cutting their legs out from under them(god do i hope i'm wrong) by ending the current sotryline/generation of characters with the current generation of home consoles.

Oh yea and MK: Deception is getting ported to the PSP in October. The same time MK: Armageddon is getting released on PS2 and Xbox.

[Graham Mitchell]

As for it being easy did you ever bother trying to turn up the difficulty? It does get harder if you actually try.
As for being a "deep" game it is a fighter. And as for a story line of a fighting game goes can someone tell me about the story line of the SF series? I have read nearly 200 pages of story transcipts from the MK series that is considered canon by Boon and Vogel.
And i don't know where you guys are coming up with this memorizing combos stuff. People pul off much longer combos in SF than in MK.

Okay, but I haven't played a new fighting game since Street Fighter Alpha. Maybe I should have prefaced my comments by stating that I don't play fighting games. So, my point of view is that of a person who played these games thoroughly when they were released, but has only played them very casually in the past 10 years. On surface level, SFII has more going on in my opinion.

That said, yes I've turned up the difficulty on MK and it gets hard. That wasn't the point of my statement, though. As I said before, I always felt that you could play SFII and be reasonably successful at it simply by going off of instinct. But I remember walking up to the Mortal Kombat machine for the first time in 1993 and having the game mop the floor with my ass because I didn't know any moves or combos. I feel that you have to know some moves to play MK, so the less hardcore gamer is going to have some problems with it.

As for the comment on "depth", you misinterpreted what I meant. I wasn't talking about the storyline. I was talking about the gameplay like everybody else.

This thread is getting really heated, isn't it? I fear fanboyism is about to rear its ugly head.

[evildead2099]

i don't know where you guys are coming up with this memorizing combos stuff. People pul off much longer combos in SF than in MK.

I think they're talking about the 'dial-a-combos' that became a staple of the MK series since MK3. It's very difficult to pull off a dial-a-combo in MK if you haven't memorized the appropriate button sequences per character.

Street Fighter, on the other hand, features combos which are more intuitive and based around timefully chaining one attack into another. If you know how to pull off regular and super moves in SF, you don't need to worry so much about memorization for the sake of perfecting combos.

[Ed Oscuro]

There has never been a MK game recalled due to glitchyness.
Yes, but they were able to update the ROMsets.

I'm curious, though, how has the MK series fared in comparison to others as far as updates go?

[evildead2099]

MK3 did not come out on N64. I still haven't played MK4 on the N64 which i wopuld assume was the one you meant.

I think he was referring to MK Trilogy for the N64.



I didn't know SF whent 3d...

It did. See the (overrated) Street Fighter EX series.

[evildead2099]

There has never been a MK game recalled due to glitchyness.

Many (myself included) feel that Mortal Kombat Advance should never have been released the way it was. It's worse than MK1 for the Gameboy in many respects.

[izret101]

As for it being easy did you ever bother trying to turn up the difficulty? It does get harder if you actually try.
As for being a "deep" game it is a fighter. And as for a story line of a fighting game goes can someone tell me about the story line of the SF series? I have read nearly 200 pages of story transcipts from the MK series that is considered canon by Boon and Vogel.
And i don't know where you guys are coming up with this memorizing combos stuff. People pul off much longer combos in SF than in MK.

Okay, but I haven't played a new fighting game since Street Fighter Alpha. Maybe I should have prefaced my comments by stating that I don't play fighting games. So, my point of view is that of a person who played these games thoroughly when they were released, but has only played them very casually in the past 10 years. On surface level, SFII has more going on in my opinion.

That said, yes I've turned up the difficulty on MK and it gets hard. That wasn't the point of my statement, though. As I said before, I always felt that you could play SFII and be reasonably successful at it simply by going off of instinct. But I remember walking up to the Mortal Kombat machine for the first time in 1993 and having the game mop the floor with my ass because I didn't know any moves or combos. I feel that you have to know some moves to play MK, so the less hardcore gamer is going to have some problems with it.

As for the comment on "depth", you misinterpreted what I meant. I wasn't talking about the storyline. I was talking about the gameplay like everybody else.

This thread is getting really heated, isn't it? I fear fanboyism is about to rear its ugly head.

Sorry i misinterprueted you.
And i too got decimated in the arcades quite a few times.
I was at Hampton Beach, NH and one of the arcades there had the difficulty turned up WAY to high.
My ego definately got knocked down quite a bit.

And i legitimately LOLed about the fanboyism comment LOL

[Mr.FoodMonster]

If you havn't gone back and played any of the MK's pre-current gen, do so. After 3 minutes of play, you'll see why.

Go back and play SFII. Try to put it down after the first fight.

They relyed totally on pre-set combo chains, or incredible cheap-ness (Scorpion "get over here!"uppercut, jump, airkick, "get over here!"upercut ect.)

I could be wrong but i am pretty sure that more of the classic MK games have been released on current gen than the classic SF games. 2&3 released in the form of Midway Arcade Treasures(MK 1 also packed with the Kollector's Edition games). SF2(?) released on Capcom Classics.(If i am wrong let me know. I will admit it) And again on 360 Live.

And i can be accused of using that combo to piss off my cousins, bro and friends. And what exactly is a non preset combo chain? I would assume any combo chain would be preset since it would have to be known and programmed into the game in order to work appropriately.
And in every fighting game i have played you can grab a character and use a couple moves to win with.
I dont really see the point in your first chunk there. So what if the game has been released again recently, that is a moot point. But, even so, they have that SF anniversery edition that has a version of SF 2 and SF 3. So, they actually are on the same page, pretty much, there.

Also, yes, all combos are pre-set in a way, but you can throw some random punches and kicks and have a nice combo and keep going, but if you know the 7 button combo in MK, you can get someone down to 50% very easily. Therefore, you learn to depend on such a thing and can win in a pretty cheap way. Dont get me wrong, every fighting game has its cheap moments, but when that is the main focus and best way to beat someone, thats pretty lame IMO. Dont get me wrong, I love to go back and play MK every now and again, its just that SF2 is a better game to me.

[izret101]

There has never been a MK game recalled due to glitchyness.

Many (myself included) feel that Mortal Kombat Advance should never have been released the way it was. It's worse than MK1 for the Gameboy in many respects.

I recant my statement.
This game was never recalled but it DEFINTATELY should have been.
They must not have even bothered with testing it.

And MK1 for gameboy wasn't glitchy it was just had extremely shitty number of FPS and made the timing suck.
They tried to use the same sprites they used on the console versions just without colors and missing chunks of the image. Or at least thats what it looked like to me.

[Graham Mitchell]

[quote=Graham Mitchell]
And i legitimately LOLed about the fanboyism comment LOL

OMG SFII SUX WTFBBQ!@@$

See, I told you it was gonna happen. :D

[Eternal Champion]

i'll take Samaurai showdown II to either of those any day....
I'll agree with this; the first Samurai Shodown, even. I was in a MKII hyper phase for a few months when it came out on SNES, but it got boring VERY quickly. SFII Turbo is still so playable for me. But Samurai...I think this is a very deep game, and I like it even more than SFII Turbo...perhaps. I still think SFII Turbo is very balanced (EXCEPT for Ken and Ryu). I've always thought the combos in MKII were too cheap-ass. Later Capcom fighters, like X-Men Children of the Atom and later games, while cool-looking, were just too fast and out-of-control for me. To me, there was no finesse, like SFII T.

[DreamTR]

Evildead: as I posted before, in human vs human interaction, you DO NOT need to know the "dial-a-combos" in MK3/UMK3 to be successful. Sure, it's "good" to know them, but if you play against the top players in the country (when the game was huge at the time), you would see that the very best players can beat you with two or three moves, just like in Street Fighter. The game becomes "dumbed" down in a sense, but very tactical and difficult to comprehend unless you are used to high levels of MK gameplay.

For example, logic has it that noob players will pick up Kabal and learn his spin move, then dial-a-combo for 30% easy damage. However, one of the top characters in the game (Ermac) relies on juggles mostly to keep you off-balance with high damage off of very few hits.

The real core is losing to players that can just use the "sweep" technique with characters such as Sonya and Jax. You can literally hold BACK + LOW KICK and time it so that when you opponent jumps over you, you are going to sweep them til the cows come home. It is VERY difficult to try and play footsie type spacing games against character like this, so you need to know what moves hit your opponent when he is ducking, which two hit combos to fool him/her with, etc. Many. many mind games in high levels of play. Heck, I can beat most people just by using a stop/run instant uppercut technique with Liu Kang which is highly annoying and highly effective.

Keep in mind, this is all against human opponents. The computer opponents in fighting games usually do things that humans can not do or react to as quickly, so it has NEVER been a good test of "skill" as to who are the best players.

[Eternal Champion]

The real core is losing to players that can just use the "sweep" technique with characters such as Sonya and Jax. You can literally hold BACK + LOW KICK and time it so that when you opponent jumps over you, you are going to sweep them til the cows come home. It is VERY difficult to try and play footsie type spacing games against character like this, so you need to know what moves hit your opponent when he is ducking, which two hit combos to fool him/her with, etc. Many. many mind games in high levels of play. Heck, I can beat most people just by using a stop/run instant uppercut technique with Liu Kang which is highly annoying and highly effective.
I can believe it. I haven't often played SFII against humans, but a few times I have against people with skill. Ryu--f@!king sweep and uppercut. That's all.


The computer opponents in fighting games usually do things that humans can not do or react to as quickly, so it has NEVER been a good test of "skill" as to who are the best players.
Has anyone actually pulled off Zangief's spinning pile driver??? I cannot believe that it is actually possible!

[izret101]

Yea AI skill and human skill are totally different.

In alot of games if you play them long enough you can figure out exactly what they AI is going to do.
Either in response to you or on its own accord at match start.

People on the other hand are much more dynamic.
Well in theory.
lol

[Dire 51]

I did not read said article about MKI and SF2 being among the "ten most overrated series" of all time, but anyone that thinks SF2 is overrated is really a bit misdirected, sorry to say.

Street Fighter II paved the WAY for the fighting game genre today. Sure, there was Karate Champ and SFI, but NOTHING like what SFII did to revitalize the game industry. You have to be completely naive to not realize the impact that series had on revitalizing arcades today.

Why I feel SF2 is overrated is just a matter of my own opinion, and actually has little to do with it being a trailblazer and all that other stuff (and it's actually an article about what I personally feel are the ten most overrated games of all time, not series). However, I also feel that the introduction of SF2 and the public's wholehearted embarace of it and the genre caused the decline of arcades, not the revitalization.

Or:

pre-SF2: you could walk into an arcade and find a huge array of different game styles.

post-SF2: arcades had wall-to-wall fighting games, and the occasional light gun and driving game. That's it, unless you count the skeeball, crane and foosball machines too. I'm speaking from personal experience here... it took a year or two, but eventually most of the arcades I used to frequent in the early '90s had wall-to-wall fighting games, and this continued for many years. Couldn't tell you about them now though, as I no longer live in that area.

[DreamTR]

Dire: The problem is that you can have your opinion, but you are basically stating that SF2 is NOT a good game. It lived up to the hype and then some, that's the point. There was nothing like it at the time, and it's still a fun game when you go bak to it. XBOX Live Arcade for 360 is releasing SFII Hyper Fighting for online play, which is essentially SFII with slightly more moves and a tad faster speed.

This is why I have to disagree with you about the game being "overrated". If anything, I would be putting stuff like Zelda: Ocarina of Time on that list. Any game where you have to walk around for hours and hours on end, and do hardly anything and still gets praise from Zelda fanboys all over the place is definitely my definition of an "overrated" game. It's not fun, it's not intuitive, and yet Nintendo can do no wrong with that game being released...Blah...

[Captain Wrong]

This thread makes me smile.

[Lothars]

Well I am a big MK II and MK III ultimate

though I always prefer Street Fighter 2 though honestly if I had to choose I would rather play Street Fighter Alpha 3 but that's not part of the debate

though I think the reason is they just hold up so well after being out for so long but they are still fun to play.

[XianXi]

Well i for one beg to differ. MKII left a huge impression on a lot of people, the main reason that SFII trumps it is that SFII was first.

It's because SF2 didnt get more ridiculous with each new game.

I loved the first Mortal Kombat, the second I liked as well but started losing interest after the 3rd and so on.

[XianXi]

The computer opponents in fighting games usually do things that humans can not do or react to as quickly, so it has NEVER been a good test of "skill" as to who are the best players.
Has anyone actually pulled off Zangief's spinning pile driver??? I cannot believe that it is actually possible!

The piledriver is easy, what DreamTR is referring to is input commands like Guile has to charge for 2 seconds to do a sonic boom or a razor kick, but the computer can just walk right up to you and do one. This is technically cheating but was enabled to give the appearance of AI.

One time I was playing SF2 when everyone just started learning about the invisible throw and then the computer did it to me once.

Anyone know what version of SF2 had the invisible throw? Only the machine at Fun Factory and a local Sports Card store had it, that and the handcuff, blackout. I cant believe people used to waste quarters just to show us the blackout.

But ya the invisible throw was just cheat all the way since you could do it from across the screen, fun but cheat.

[Dire 51]

Dire: The problem is that you can have your opinion, but you are basically stating that SF2 is NOT a good game. It lived up to the hype and then some, that's the point. There was nothing like it at the time, and it's still a fun game when you go bak to it. XBOX Live Arcade for 360 is releasing SFII Hyper Fighting for online play, which is essentially SFII with slightly more moves and a tad faster speed.

This is why I have to disagree with you about the game being "overrated". If anything, I would be putting stuff like Zelda: Ocarina of Time on that list. Any game where you have to walk around for hours and hours on end, and do hardly anything and still gets praise from Zelda fanboys all over the place is definitely my definition of an "overrated" game. It's not fun, it's not intuitive, and yet Nintendo can do no wrong with that game being released...Blah...

In all honesty, the first time I played SF2 I felt it wasn't all that great. Let me tell you about the first time I played SF2:

I encountered the arcade game for the first time shortly after it made its U.S. debut, but before it became the giant juggernaut that it is. No one was playing it. I don't think anyone really cared about it at the time (the arcade was pretty crowded that day, and people weren't even as much as looking at it). So I watched the demo run for a minute, and decided to give it a shot. I dropped fifty cents on it, beat the first opponent I faced (can't remember who it was, offhand), got my ass handed to me by Blanka, and went to go play something else. I wasn't overly impressed with it, but I didn't think it sucked either. I certainly didn't think it was worth fifty cents.

When it got big I was like "Wait, isn't this Street Fighter II that meh game I played a few months back? Why is everyone making such a fuss over that?"

It took other, lesser fighting games like MK1 for me to realize how solid SF2's fighting engine was, but I still to this day don't feel that the game was all that great. Good, yes, but worthy of all the praise it's gotten? Not exactly.

There's a possibility I might have added TooT to that list, but I haven't played it for more than five minutes, so I don't feel qualified to say whether or not it's overrated.

[Ed Oscuro]

Edit: Nevermind, found that article!

Hmm...the problem with calling games "overrated" is that people feel invited to come and say "but it does deserve all that praise, so it's obviously not overrated!" There's a point where people are simply tired of hearing about a game.

Reading the SFII entry, this is made abundantly clear:


...you could not get away from the fucking thing! Street Fighter II was everywhere for years, and I got so sick of it! The game itself? Granted, it deserved a lot of the praise that it received.
That's pretty much it. One person's message to the world that a game doesn't deserve to be talked about nonstop won't sit well with somebody who argues that the game's still worth playing.

SF II wouldn't make my personal overrated list because I didn't really live through the hype. Sure, I played the SNES port once back in the day, and then went home and continued my video game-bereft life up until about '97, when I got into the PlayStation. For me the game never got annoying.

Halo, WoW, and Counter-Strike (if I were the sort of person who didn't care for the game), on the other hand...

Aside from deflating fanboyism, I think listing "overrated games" only makes sense in the context of pushing the underrated games they overshadow.

[DreamTR]

Dire: That's the problem. You played the computer. Fighting games are boring in general without the human vs human interaction. Nothing ever introduced in arcades before could compete with the magnitude of the adrenaline rush of vs. play.

I walk out of arcades if I want to play a fighting game unless humans are playing. It adds an infinite amount of gameplay that is ALWAYS different. Same reason why I like pinball; )

[Push Upstairs]

I did not read said article about MKI and SF2 being among the "ten most overrated series" of all time, but anyone that thinks SF2 is overrated is really a bit misdirected, sorry to say.

Street Fighter II paved the WAY for the fighting game genre today. Sure, there was Karate Champ and SFI, but NOTHING like what SFII did to revitalize the game industry. You have to be completely naive to not realize the impact that series had on revitalizing arcades today.

Why I feel SF2 is overrated is just a matter of my own opinion, and actually has little to do with it being a trailblazer and all that other stuff (and it's actually an article about what I personally feel are the ten most overrated games of all time, not series). However, I also feel that the introduction of SF2 and the public's wholehearted embarace of it and the genre caused the decline of arcades, not the revitalization.

Or:

pre-SF2: you could walk into an arcade and find a huge array of different game styles.

post-SF2: arcades had wall-to-wall fighting games, and the occasional light gun and driving game. That's it, unless you count the skeeball, crane and foosball machines too. I'm speaking from personal experience here... it took a year or two, but eventually most of the arcades I used to frequent in the early '90s had wall-to-wall fighting games, and this continued for many years. Couldn't tell you about them now though, as I no longer live in that area.

I'll agree on the point that i think SF2 added to a decline in arcades. I think improving technology + the fact that arcades were mostly catering to a "fighting game" crowd led to where it is today.

[goatdan]

I'd like to toss in a couple points that I don't believe were covered much...

I think that the first Mortal Kombat isn't looked at in the same way as Street Fighter II because it didn't translate as well to home machines. First, part of the appeal was the gore, and the SNES version cut all of that out of it. The gameplay was solid, but without being able to play in the arcade, it lost quite a bit of that on the SNES.

Secondly, Capcom updated Street Fighter II constantly. While we're still basically on II, there were how many different incarnations of it? If you include things like Street Fighter Vs. X-Men and so on, there was probably an installment a year, much like a Madden game.

Mortal Kombat was updated, but you had I, II and 3, and then Ultimate 3. After that, the gameplay changed significantly as we had the side stories and the 3D versions. While Street Fighter did go 3D, even that game maintained the general "feel" of the 2D games while Mortal Kombat sort of went everywhere.

So, Street Fighter had probably 20-25 similiar incarnations (X-Men / Marvel / Alpha / Zero / III / etc) since it was released that kept players coming back to play again and again, even if you discount their 3D offerings. And I'm not counting different ports of the titles.

Mortal Kombat had four before the series branched out. Even if you loved Ultimate Mortal Kombat 3, you didn't have a new game to play that was similar... ever yet. Sure, you had the 3D offerings, but it is a different style of game -- one that changes the perception of the game in gamers eyes. Street Fighter II stayed close to it's roots. Mortal Kombat tried branching out.

For the record, I enjoy both series to an extent, although I suck at fighters. I really enjoyed the Saturn Street Fighter games, and I enjoy screwing around with the 3D Mortal Kombats. I also used to enjoy the 2D Mortal Kombats, but I really suck at those.

[AB Positive]

Sorry i misinterprueted you.
And i too got decimated in the arcades quite a few times.
I was at Hampton Beach, NH and one of the arcades there had the difficulty turned up WAY to high.
My ego definitely got knocked down quite a bit.

Which arcade at Hampton?

That's only about 8 miles from me, i go there occasionally.

-AB+

[izret101]

Sorry i misinterprueted you.
And i too got decimated in the arcades quite a few times.
I was at Hampton Beach, NH and one of the arcades there had the difficulty turned up WAY to high.
My ego definitely got knocked down quite a bit.

Which arcade at Hampton?

That's only about 8 miles from me, i go there occasionally.

-AB+
I go almost every summer.

It was Funland or Funsomething...

I know it wasn't the Happy Hampton because they have slot machines on their "bottom" floor.

[NE146]

Screw gore. No one but kids cared about that.

SF2's genius control had the player actually feeling like they were pulling off the moves. i.e. a quarter circle forward for a fireball.. etc. Once you mastered them it felt second nature and could be done instinctively and felt like your movements tranlsated to the screen. The fireball movement "felt" like you were throwing a fireball.

You never really got that feeling in Mortal Kombat though. You could master the moves and do them instinctively but it always still came out as move, tap tap tap tap. It felt like you were entering in secret codes.. not really controlling fighting moves.

Anyway, that's my opinion of why sf2 aged better :D

[Dire 51]

That's pretty much it. One person's message to the world that a game doesn't deserve to be talked about nonstop won't sit well with somebody who argues that the game's still worth playing.

Can't argue with that at all. Maybe I should put a disclaimer at the beginning of the Top 100 section. I'm not trying to win friends or influence people, I'm just stating my opinions. Whether someone wants to agree with me or not is irrelevant.


That's the problem. You played the computer. Fighting games are boring in general without the human vs human interaction. Nothing ever introduced in arcades before could compete with the magnitude of the adrenaline rush of vs. play.

I've also played vs. people at SF2 many, many times. Hasn't made me like the game one iota more than I did since I played it on day one. That aside, I'll concede to your point about vs. play, as I'll be damned if I can recall any other games like that pre-SF2 that grabbed that kind of following.

[booyakasha]

The reason is because the Street Fighter series had interesting characters
as did MK but it also had a fighting system that was supreme to its sucessors.
From Mortal Kombat 1-4. the fighting system was supbar and in the case of the
first SNES game unfair. Simotaneous attacks only resulted in one player getting
damaged. Mortal Kombat recently has imporved on its gameplay aspects with the
advent of Deadly Alliance, Deception and will most likely do so when Armageddon
comes out this year. One can only hope. It's 3-d incarnations have been a success
more so than Capcom's 3-D delvings. I wish that in the next game there is more of a
emphasis on defense: countering, parrying, deflect-blocking etc.