Queer Folk threaten to sue Orc Folk

[njiska]

http://www.kotaku.com/gaming/breaking/wow-blizzard-gets-gay-rights-warning-153075.php

Lambda Legal has issued a warning to Blizzard implying that the company would face litigation for violating Gay rights if they did not adjust their practices.

For those who are unaware, last week blizzard came down on a WOW player who was trying to create a gay friendly guild citing a violationof their harassment policy because there is a full blanket ban on mentioning subjects such as sexual orientation.

Lambda Legal had this to say:

"Although Blizzard is well within its rights to insist that players avoid referring to other gamers in an “insulting manner,” Blizzard cannot issue a blanket ban on any mention of sexual orientation or gender identity. "

While i understand why people can have an issue with a blanket ban i have to admit it makes sense.

A sad fact of life is that there is a reasonably large number of racist, sexist, assholes online and openly expressing homosexuality is just asking for trouble.

While turning a blind eye to the issue of online descrimination certainly doesn't help solve the problem, it is a very reasonable preventative step.

I've never been one to support censorship of beleifs or view of any kind, but that's a 2 sided coin. If you want to express your sexuality then you should be prepared to face all the assholes who will voice there unwanted opinion.

You can't control an online user like you can a real person because you just don't have the authority. In real life harassers can be fined or even face jail time, but in a game all you can do is ban there account and in that case they'll just get another one.

It's a very complex and controversial subject no matter how you look at it. I've voiced my oopinion but how do the rest of you feel.

[davepesc]

I was going to vote and run, but since I am the only one to vote "No," please allow me to retort.

First, it is perfectly legal for Blizzard to ban whatever words they want. Blizzard is not the government, the first ammendment does not apply (We are talking USA here, right?).

With that said, I am never in favor of squashing speech, with the only possible exception of "hate speech" however you define that.

Someone wants to advertise a gay-friendly guild, god bless them. Someone wants to reply "Joo n00b fag," not OK. Want to debate the origins of sexual orientation in a productive manner, fine. Threaten someone because of said orientation, not fine.

[njiska]

I was going to vote and run, but since I am the only one to vote "No," please allow me to retort.

First, it is perfectly legal for Blizzard to ban whatever words they want. Blizzard is not the government, the first ammendment does not apply (We are talking USA here, right?).

With that said, I am never in favor of squashing speech, with the only possible exception of "hate speech" however you define that.

Someone wants to advertise a gay-friendly guild, god bless them. Someone wants to reply "Joo n00b fag," not OK. Want to debate the origins of sexual orientation in a productive manner, fine. Threaten someone because of said orientation, not fine.

Abosolutely agree with you that this is how things should be. However one must consider the practical side of enforcement and wieght the pros and cons.

The blankets is a very easy solution because it removes some of the temptation. Lower occurences are easier to fix.

Allowing the free speech of gay friendly guilds has the potential to fan the flames and that would mean higher occurances which are much harder to police.

How to handle the policing is that hard part.

And yes you are right there's no legal presicdent here. Blizzard, much like the scouts, can run the world as they see fit.

[mezrabad]

I'm not anti-gay, so don't even go there.

If the policy explicitly forbids setting up a guild leaning towards a particular sexual orientation then there ya go. That's the policy and you agree to it when you sign up.

I think it's more of a practical issue. By setting up a gay guild, (setting up a "straight" guild would also be against the policy, by the way, it's only fair that both would be denied.) they're opening the door up for lots of potential harrassment events that would then require alot more policing of harassment policy. Enforcement costs money. If you're running a business and you saw a type of guild forming that had the potential to cost you a lot of money, (with zero revenue) that could be avoided by enforcing an already existing policy, what would you do?

Lamda Legal think they have a case. I think they do not.

If they can't possibly enjoy the game without making a gay guild then they should go find an MMO that will allow it. Dummies.

[pacmanhat]

If the problems are the bigots and idiots who are bashing homosexuals, then THOSE are the people who need to be dealt with. People shouldn't be punished for being who they are, and Blizzard should be ashamed of themselves.

[Tan]

just curious here, but isn't that enough sexual material in a game to almost change it's ESRB rating? i mean words and language are one thing, but openly advertising a guild based on orientation would seem more of a "M" rated thing to me because then it's a part of the game?

[Lothars]

http://www.kotaku.com/gaming/breaking/wow-blizzard-gets-gay-rights-warning-153075.php

Lambda Legal has issued a warning to Blizzard implying that the company would face litigation for violating Gay rights if they did not adjust their practices.

For those who are unaware, last week blizzard came down on a WOW player who was trying to create a gay friendly guild citing a violationof their harassment policy because there is a full blanket ban on mentioning subjects such as sexual orientation.

Lambda Legal had this to say:

"Although Blizzard is well within its rights to insist that players avoid referring to other gamers in an “insulting manner,” Blizzard cannot issue a blanket ban on any mention of sexual orientation or gender identity. "

While i understand why people can have an issue with a blanket ban i have to admit it makes sense.

A sad fact of life is that there is a reasonably large number of racist, sexist, assholes online and openly expressing homosexuality is just asking for trouble.

While turning a blind eye to the issue of online descrimination certainly doesn't help solve the problem, it is a very reasonable preventative step.

I've never been one to support censorship of beleifs or view of any kind, but that's a 2 sided coin. If you want to express your sexuality then you should be prepared to face all the assholes who will voice there unwanted opinion.

You can't control an online user like you can a real person because you just don't have the authority. In real life harassers can be fined or even face jail time, but in a game all you can do is ban there account and in that case they'll just get another one.

It's a very complex and controversial subject no matter how you look at it. I've voiced my oopinion but how do the rest of you feel.

I am actually on your side I agree fully

I think that blizzard is in the right here, I think blizzard is doing the right thing because it's takes out the problems that may occur. even if they don't it's still better to prevent it before it happens.

[Lothars]

If the problems are the bigots and idiots who are bashing homosexuals, then THOSE are the people who need to be dealt with. People shouldn't be punished for being who they are, and Blizzard should be ashamed of themselves.

but they are not punishing people for being who they are

they just don't want any problems to start occuring if the guild was to be created, which I honestly have no problems with but if it ruins the game because the bigots and idiots are insulting any member of the guild than it hurts the game for the guild that would be worst for everyone.

so I don't think Blizzard has anything to be ashamed with but I understand where your coming from.

[Oobgarm]

I completely side with njiska on this one. Blizzard has the right to do as they see fit with their game, as long as it does not target any specific individuals or group of individuals.

A blanket ban is the perfect option. All the bases are covered.

[n8littlefield]

First off: A disclaimer. I do not, nor have I ever played an MMO of anytype. Therefore, maybe I'm missing something but...

It seems like Blizzard has a policy saying players can't form groups based on anything sex related. Players agree to the end user agreement which basically says Blizzard makes the rules. Therefore - nonissue. Blizzard says no sex based groups so no sex based groups. It seems like they are doing the right thing and avoiding a very slippery slope in doing so...

[pacmanhat]

If the problems are the bigots and idiots who are bashing homosexuals, then THOSE are the people who need to be dealt with. People shouldn't be punished for being who they are, and Blizzard should be ashamed of themselves.

but they are not punishing people for being who they are

they just don't want any problems to start occuring if the guild was to be created, which I honestly have no problems with but if it ruins the game because the bigots and idiots are insulting any member of the guild than it hurts the game for the guild that would be worst for everyone.

so I don't think Blizzard has anything to be ashamed with but I understand where your coming from.

That's the thing - it isn't the people who created this guild who are ruining the game, it's the bigots and the idiots. The potential actions of these few morons shouldn't affect the whole WoW universe. Perhaps I shouldn't say they're punishing the people for being who they are, but they are most definitely limiting them and their rights to free speech and whatnot. I would imagine Blizzard would have little to no problem with a 'straight' guild, which if true is an awful hypocrisy. I've seen Christian guilds as well, which is certainly a hot button issue these days as well, but those folks weren't shut down either.

Futhermore, I would imagine that the people in this guild knew exactly what sort of reaction they were likely to get (hell, many of them are likely used to it), and that leads me to believe that they're probably okay with putting up with a few dumbasses in order to create a community of people they can relate to in this way. And that's what WoW is all about - community.

[njiska]

If the problems are the bigots and idiots who are bashing homosexuals, then THOSE are the people who need to be dealt with. People shouldn't be punished for being who they are, and Blizzard should be ashamed of themselves.

but they are not punishing people for being who they are

they just don't want any problems to start occuring if the guild was to be created, which I honestly have no problems with but if it ruins the game because the bigots and idiots are insulting any member of the guild than it hurts the game for the guild that would be worst for everyone.

so I don't think Blizzard has anything to be ashamed with but I understand where your coming from.

That's the thing - it isn't the people who created this guild who are ruining the game, it's the bigots and the idiots. The potential actions of these few morons shouldn't affect the whole WoW universe. Perhaps I shouldn't say they're punishing the people for being who they are, but they are most definitely limiting them and their rights to free speech and whatnot. I would imagine Blizzard would have little to no problem with a 'straight' guild, which if true is an awful hypocrisy. I've seen Christian guilds as well, which is certainly a hot button issue these days as well, but those folks weren't shut down either.

On US servers a Christian guild is far from controversaial but a gay guild is tempting the gods. I'm sure Blizzard would have a problem with a guild that didn't allow gay players because that too would be like to be a breeding ground for hate.

However one is following to imply what Blizzard would do in any situation as we are not Blizzard and do not really know for sure.

The bottom line is, you're gay that's great, but there's no need to bring it into the game and put yourself at risk when you aren't willing to face the consequences.

Free speech is a two sided coin. If you have what you want then you have to except the other side.

[pacmanhat]

Then allow both sides. It'll make it more like a real world that way anyway. Maybe if they did that and it then became a serious problem, then they'd have reason to pull the plug on it.

[keiblerfan69]

I don't have a problem with gay people but I don't like it when they try to make us accept it.

[Ed Oscuro]

Tried to post before classes today, but my lousy modem cut out again.

We had some folks from the WoW side come to GameSpy Forums and go over all this. Basically, it sucks. In their quest for "equality" certain people have thought nothing of causing the same kind of controversy that the ban on sex-related clans was supposed to prevent.

Regrettable, but it doesn't make me feel bad for having deliberately sat out on the game.


I would imagine Blizzard would have little to no problem with a 'straight' guild
Another instance of somebody sounding off without understanding the issue, and, I dare say, evidence of the typical delusion this minority has evidenced. The agreement banned ANY clans based off sexual preferences, gay or straight. It was very much equal.

[pacmanhat]

I would imagine Blizzard would have little to no problem with a 'straight' guild
Another instance of somebody sounding off without understanding the issue, and, I dare say, evidence of the typical delusion this minority has evidenced. The agreement banned ANY clans based off sexual preferences, gay or straight. It was very much equal.

I was not aware of this. That's what I get for making the assumption, I guess.

[n8littlefield]

Stupid question of the day: How do you know if a guild is a gay one? I mean, why couldn't a group of likeminded gay gamers meet on a non-official message board somewhere, form their guild and simply play the game? I mean, did they advertise what they were doing or something?

[njiska]

Stupid question of the day: How do you know if a guild is a gay one? I mean, why couldn't a group of likeminded gay gamers meet on a non-official message board somewhere, form their guild and simply play the game? I mean, did they advertise what they were doing or something?

Yes the openly advertised with in the game that the guild was for gays.

[Push Upstairs]

My only question is: Isn't the whole point of playing these type of games is to be someone other than what you are?

And i can't blame Blizzard really, if they allowed a gay guild then pretty soon you will have "anti-black" guilds and other such bullshit. I mean, it's bad enough gays have to deal with such issues in the real world, why on earth would you want to drag that into a fantasy game?

[mezrabad]

Yes the openly advertised with in the game that the guild was for gays.

See, that's where the hypocrisy (sp?) comes in. It's okay, in their minds, to advertise for a "gay guild" (I'm presuming it's male/gay exclusive, but I don't know) but if there were ever ads for a "straight people guild" they'd be all "hate speech! hate speech!". It's not gay people that bother me, it's crybabies and whiners who want things they way they want it, otherwise "waaah, it's not fair!" (even though it is, no guilds based on sexual preference themes at all, that's a fair rule when it applies to all flavors.)

An argument saying "they should let us be who we are when we're pretending to be someone else!" is deficient, mostly because it uses the word "should", but also because communities are all about making rules so that things will run more smoothly. If they allowed "straights only" guilds then the bigots would be the gay people who had a problem with it. (actually, they'd probably just form their own guild in response.)

Look, I can understand, to some extent, why they'd want a guild that was gay exclusive. There are enough people online who misuse terms like "gay", "fag" and "queer" that they'd probably like to set up a guild where the wouldn't have to hear it. If they did, they'd know it was coming from one of their own, so it isn't offensive. It's a little like way that blacks call each other "nigga" or "nigger" but wouldn't tolerate that from someone outside their group.

Anyway, they should learn to go online and make friends with other people, regardless of their sexual orientation. If they want to only hang out with gay people there are places for that in the real world.

There's no such thing as free speech in a privately-owned universe.

[Shawn David Struck]

My only question is: Isn't the whole point of playing these type of games is to be someone other than what you are?

And i can't blame Blizzard really, if they allowed a gay guild then pretty soon you will have "anti-black" guilds and other such bullshit. I mean, it's bad enough gays have to deal with such issues in the real world, why on earth would you want to drag that into a fantasy game?

You're kidding, right?

I 'll kick some of this over to my good buddy Rob (http://theotherbaldwin.livejournal.com/152325.html?thread=438277#t438277):

Seriously, guys, way to blame the victim.

At any rate, if the game is supposedly not supposed to show any preference in reference to orientation, that what are quotes like these doing in the game:

* Male Taureen /silly audio: "Homogenized? No way, I like the ladies."

* Female Dwarf /silly audio: "I like my ale like I like my men, dark and rich."

* Male Dwarf /silly audio: "I like my beer like I like my women, stout and bitter."


Doesn't this present a bit of a double standard?

n8littlefield:
Ready for the offensive message? Hold on, lock up the kids and be ready for your monitor to possibly melt from the sheer depravity.

Here goes:



OZ is recruiting all levels ¦ We are not 'GLBT only,' but we are 'GLBT friendly'! (guilduniverse.com/oz)


njiska said:

The bottom line is, you're gay that's great, but there's no need to bring it into the game and put yourself at risk when you aren't willing to face the consequences.

By showing a pageant of races and intentionally-balanced classes, one message is that diversity is welcomed and valued. But the real message seems to be this - If you’re a minority, you can be anything you want … except who you really are.

But hey, if that's how you feel, then there should be a ban on mentioning all types of relationships. So no more in-game marraiges, or talking about your signifigant other in-game or otherwise. At all. Right?

[mezrabad]

OZ is recruiting all levels ¦ We are not 'GLBT only,' but we are 'GLBT friendly'! (guilduniverse.com/oz)


Yes the openly advertised with in the game that the guild was for gays.

These statements together do imply that the latter statement was missing some important information.

Still, why do they even need to go there? Why bring it up at all? Just create a guild and go play. Recruit other people you enjoy playing with. Simple. Forget the demo targeting.

[Shawn David Struck]

[quote]
Still, why do they even need to go there? Why bring it up at all? Just create a guild and go play. Recruit other people you enjoy playing with. Simple. Forget the demo targeting.

I know! Maybe we could have like, a special little server for them. Call it something inclusive, like Closet, maybe.

[GaijinPunch]

Sex and games don't mix. Now if you'll excuse me, I'm going to go play DOA Beach Volleyball.

[njiska]

OZ is recruiting all levels ¦ We are not 'GLBT only,' but we are 'GLBT friendly'! (guilduniverse.com/oz)


Yes the openly advertised with in the game that the guild was for gays.

These statements together do imply that the latter statement was missing some important information.

Still, why do they even need to go there? Why bring it up at all? Just create a guild and go play. Recruit other people you enjoy playing with. Simple. Forget the demo targeting.

Ah context is important now isn't it. Hence why i've always said it was for gays not only for gays.

But yes why do we need to go there? Don't ask don't tell is such a good policy, i don't present my beliefs to you and you don't show yours to me.

[16-bit]

Amen to the posts by Shawn David Struck

Strip everything away and this is about double standards.

Perhaps it is Blizzard's legal right now have double standards, but this situation presents a perfect opportunity for another MMORPG company to differentiate itself from Blizzard. I hope they seize it.

[mezrabad]

OZ is recruiting all levels ¦ We are not 'GLBT only,' but we are 'GLBT friendly'! (guilduniverse.com/oz)


Yes the openly advertised with in the game that the guild was for gays.

These statements together do imply that the latter statement was missing some important information.

Still, why do they even need to go there? Why bring it up at all? Just create a guild and go play. Recruit other people you enjoy playing with. Simple. Forget the demo targeting.

Ah context is important now isn't it. Hence why i've always said it was for gays not only for gays.

But yes why do we need to go there? Don't ask don't tell is such a good policy, i don't present my beliefs to you and you don't show yours to me.

Sorry, njiska, not an attack on you (or the other guy, really). I got that quote from someone else's post and I did take it out of context and I did interpret it to imply that it was for gay's only. My mistake (or the mistake of the original quoter. My attention is a little too divided between this thread and real life.)

I'm not a big fan of "don't ask, don't tell" either, but I see sexual preferences as relevant as "smoking or non-smoking" in an on-line gaming world.

Actually, that would be pretty funny, if someone were to start a "Smokers' Guild" on WoW and advertise it with statements like "we're not Smokers only, but we're Smoker friendly!".

I appreciate a group's desire to create a guild of people which is tolerant to all types of beliefs and lifestyles. I think they would be smarter to refer to the group as being friendly to alternative lifestyles rather than to alternative sexual practices. I don't think that the Blizzard policy would then affect them.

I'm still prone to ridiculing litigation against a coporation's policy when there are smarter and cheaper alternatives. Ethanol, or wind energy for example. Wait, that's a different issue.

[njiska]

OZ is recruiting all levels ¦ We are not 'GLBT only,' but we are 'GLBT friendly'! (guilduniverse.com/oz)


Yes the openly advertised with in the game that the guild was for gays.

These statements together do imply that the latter statement was missing some important information.

Still, why do they even need to go there? Why bring it up at all? Just create a guild and go play. Recruit other people you enjoy playing with. Simple. Forget the demo targeting.

Ah context is important now isn't it. Hence why i've always said it was for gays not only for gays.

But yes why do we need to go there? Don't ask don't tell is such a good policy, i don't present my beliefs to you and you don't show yours to me.

Sorry, njiska, not an attack on you (or the other guy, really). I got that quote from someone else's post and I did take it out of context and I did interpret it to imply that it was for gay's only. My mistake (or the mistake of the original quoter. My attention is a little too divided between this thread and real life.)


Nah it's all cool. But what i find really sad is how Blizzards attempt to prevent hostility has lead to Blizzard being labeled but some as being anti-gay.

There's no need to bring up sexual preference online, it's not important and if you feel the need to advertise then it really is your problem.

[Push Upstairs]

You're kidding, right?

I don't really think that someones sexual preference is really that huge of an issue when it comes to games.

I can say the same thing about here, what the hell does being gay have to do with playing NES? What does being straight have to do with playing NES? What?

What i don't understand is what having a "Gay guild" does in the grand scheme of futhering gay rights. What kind of discussion could one possibly have in a guild that they couldnt do at any number of forums across the internet?

To put it mildly, its a game. That is all it will ever be.

[lendelin]

There's no need to bring up sexual preference online, it's not important and if you feel the need to advertise then it really is your problem.

If sexual preference isn't important and a neglectible issue, why then the need to prohibit its announcement online via the creation of guilds in a MMORPG?

Obviously it IS important and controversial. The Q is: how should a controversial issue be dealt with?...and isn't the prohibition of events which might cause perceived discrimination deeply discriminatory like the 'don't ask, don't tell policy'?

[njiska]

There's no need to bring up sexual preference online, it's not important and if you feel the need to advertise then it really is your problem.

If sexual preference isn't important and a neglectible issue, why then the need to prohibit its announcement online via the creation of guilds in a MMORPG?

It's not important because it's not relevant. Expressing your sexuality brings an outside issue into a game where it has no place and in doing so tempts the unaviodable biggotted hoards that roam the virtual world.

Sexual preference isn't the problem, harassment and enforcement of the harassment policy are what this whole discussion is about. Unfortuneately many of the people who beleive that they should be openly able to express their sexual preference also expect anyone who says nil of it to be dealt with appropriately.

The problem with this is enforcement. Blizzard has a hard enough time keeping a handle on things as it is and if people go discussing controversial real world issues (read the policy is covers considerably more then sexuality) within the game, then that controversy and all the associtated problems carry over into the game and then Blizzard ends up with more problems then they can handle.

In this case we'll say it results in further harassment. Harassment that can no longer be controlled because it's over running Blizzard. From there things can just snowball. You'd be amazed what kinds of crazy lawsuits people can come up with.

The blanket ban not only stops all of this from happening and the only thing it costs the end user is the ability to discuss incredibly divided real-world issues inside of a game where they don't belong in the first place.

You're playing WOW to enjoy the fantasy realm and participate in quest with other users around the world. You're not there to be doing anything else.

I suggest people watch The Big Kahuna with Kevin Spacey and Danny Devito. It should help but things in prespective and hopefully you'll understand why some things don't matter in certain situations.

Remember kids it's a game, not real life, hence there's no need to bring real-life into it.

[Ed Oscuro]

Strip everything away and this is about double standards.
What double standard would that be?

As I said before, nobody was allowed to make sexual preference a factor for club membership. No gays-only clubs, no straights-only clubs.

[Yamazaki]

As far as I read on kotaku straight marriages, straight sexual boasting and other "highly" controversial stuff like religious clans are no issue to Blizzard.

If they put a ban on it, it should be on everything.
there shouldn't be any other guilds then orcs, monsters, paladins etc fantasy stuff.


I'm not gay, but I can imagine how it would piss me off that ie christian clas would be allowed but no muslim clans due to harrassment.

[Ed Oscuro]

As far as I read on kotaku straight marriages, straight sexual boasting and other "highly" controversial stuff like religious clans are no issue to Blizzard.

If they put a ban on it, it should be on everything.
there shouldn't be any other guilds then orcs, monsters, paladins etc fantasy stuff.


I'm not gay, but I can imagine how it would piss me off that ie christian clas would be allowed but no muslim clans due to harrassment.
Alright, that I agree with. (Weren't gay marriages allowed? @_@ )

Last I read Blizzard had claimed that the rules were being misinterpreted by GMs, so we'll see what happens along that front. Word.

[Shawn David Struck]

Strip everything away and this is about double standards.
What double standard would that be?

As I said before, nobody was allowed to make sexual preference a factor for club membership. No gays-only clubs, no straights-only clubs.

Let's recap.

A guild leader does a single line "announcement" ad for a guild. Said annoucements have been done before in-game. This guild is advertised not as gay exclusive, not as LGBT only, (even explicitly saying they aren't LGBT only), but LBGT firendly. This player is cited and warned in game for this announcement. Later clarification from Blizzard in a game reps email says "While we appreciate and understand your point of view, we do feel that the advertisement of a 'GLBT friendly' guild is very likely to result in harassment for players that may not have existed otherwise. If you will look at our policy, you will notice the suggested penalty for violating the Sexual Orientation Harassment Policy is to 'be temporarily suspended from the game.' However, as there was clearly no malicious intent on your part, this penalty was reduced to a warning."

Blizzard's stance was clear that recruiting for a guild using "GLBT" was inappropriate as, the company said, it may "incite certain responses in other players that will allow for discussion that we feel has no place in our game." (source, InNews Weekly (http://www.innewsweekly.com/innews/?class_code=Ga&article_code=1172))

So, their stance was not that they were using this advertisement and saying something in an insulting manner, but the very fact that they were saying they were LBGT friendly would open its members to harassment by other players (the guild does have straight members).

That's an issue of a double standard.

Here's another:

Marriage in-game between player characters is an acccepted part of the in-game experience in WoW. A transcript of an in-game chat with an offical Blizzard Game Master (http://acidforblood.net/2006/02/03/player-seeks-clarification-on-blizzards-harassment-policies/#more-179) shows that even on a sever specifically set-up for role play, having an in game marraige between two characters with the same gender flag, even if the players themselves were a real-life heterosexual couple, would violate the "harassment" policy.

Here's another:

There's supoosed supposed to be no "favoring" over one type of orientation over another, or mentions to sexuality, right?

So you have in-game audio like:
Dwarf Female - "No, they're not real, but thanks for noticing."
Dwarf Female - "I like my ale like I like my men; dark and rich."
Gnome Male - "I like large posteriors, and I cannot prevaricate."
Night Elf Female - "Oh, I'm dancing again. I hope all your friends are enjoying the show."
Tauren Male - "Homogenized? No way. I like the ladies."
Tauren Female - "I've got big soulful eyes, long eyelashes, and a wet tongue. What more could a guy want?"
Troll Female - "When enraged, and in heat, a female Troll can mate over eighty times in one night. Be you prepared?"

Here's another:
Suppose someone's on a clan chat and apologizes for being late for a scheudled meeting. "Sorry I was late, everyone. I had to pick up my boyfriend." No, should it matter whether the person saying that was a guy or a gal? No. Is mentioning a same-sex significant violation of current Blizzard policy? Yes.

Here's another:

On an RP server, as mentioned before, Male NightElf fighter and a male NightElf fighter = banned. Male NightElf fighter and female NightElf fighter is not banned.

Here's another:
The attitude that by saying they're gay friendly (shock, horror gasp, GAY) that they are "getting in a player's face", when advertsing the same way about a Christian guild or Muslim guild is okay.

Here's another:
There's something wrong with players forming guild alliances based on real life attributes. Except for the Penny Arcade fan guilds and Univeristy of $name guilds, and Canadian guilds, and on and on...

Here's another:
PDA is bad.
Night Elf Girl Pole Dancing is good.

Here's the biggest one:
In a game filled with diverse races and classes, the fact that you can be whoever you want to be. Unless you'd like to be who you actually are. Then, be quiet about it.

And why should they mention anything about real life, this is supposed to be fantasy, be something they aren't? Well, hell. What if a straight player wanted to play a bi or gay character, huh? Lord knows there are plenty of guys that play female characters on line.

(edit: fixed typos)

[djbeatmongrel]

ok this topic really troubles me. i've been playing CoH/Cov pretty much since each (respectively) went live. there have been numerous glbt friendly super groups and each have had little to no harasment from other players or game moderators. I have also been apart of a few of these groups and am friends with the leaders of 2 past leather/bdsm groups.

the reason people make these groups is to have people that not just play well together but can talk about personal issues with people who can either relate or not judge them to begin with. NCsoft and cryptic have welcomed these specialized groups with open arms and have punished people who have violated these peoples rights accordingly.

on the otherside there has been a Nazi group called the 6th column (based around a passed nazi-like group of enemies called the 5th column). but even they stayed quiet and to themselves for the most part. although i really dont support their views i don't think its completely wrong for them to be shut down if they conduct themselves maturely no matter how much they dislike other players for unintelligible reasons.

granted blizzard is out to make money but if you want to keep people playing you need to allow their personal expressive freedom while ensuring their safety.

[Ed Oscuro]

@ Shawn David Struck:

Yeah, yeah, I'm a little slow to catch on sometimes. Post right above yours, I caught myself :)

[Mangar]

Blizzard is well within there legal rights to ban any guild name they want. I think this has been established.

However it's my personal opinion, as someone who has led a very large MMO guild for 5+ years in various games(Including WoW) - That this banning is just Blizzards way of preventing in-game headaches. I mean lets be realistic: A "Gay" guild is going to be the target of not so much attacks, but lots of mockery, snide comments, and insults. Which while i personally feel is something par for the course in any "Role-Playing Game" Blizzard has gone to great lengths to prevent. I mean, this is the same company which shut off communication completely between the opposing teams, for no other reason then so that any form of "Trash-Talk" would not exist. (For those who haven't played, there are two teams that vie against each other. Communication is shut off completely between the two)

And i can already envision the responses, which will be the inevitable "Well the bigots and assholes who harass the gay players SHOULD be dealt with." and my response, and Blizzards unofficial response and probably there mindset with the ban would be "Is banning thousands of paying customers, and just plain creating a Nanny-State on the server worth making a small collection of gay players happy?" As someone who has a long history with these types of games, trust me when i say: This is what WILL be required. If this were a different sort of MMO like say Shadowbane or one with a real PvP type server that was policed by the players themselves, i highly doubt the guild would have been banned. (Course the guild would have been quickly crushed, but thats irrelevant) But it's not, and for the gay players to have there "Gay Guild" - Blizzard would be forced into the unenviable position of protecting them. Which means lost revenue and unhappy players and fellow guilds who don't understand why they are being banned all of a sudden for saying "This zone is gay." or the odd Butt-Pirate comment here and there. Remember: WoW is a game and business. Not a social experiment, and not a forum to force tolerance onto others.


Here's another:
The attitude that by saying they're gay friendly (shock, horror gasp, GAY) that they are "getting in a player's face", when advertsing the same way about a Christian guild or Muslim guild is okay.


In the interests of full disclosure: My guild, which has been around for quite awhile, is a PvP Guild which revolves around our interpretation of "Jesus" and Christianity. In a satirical or highly insulting/offensive sort of way. (Depending on your viewpoint) - And we have not only never been banned, but have made rather elaborate posts about "Embracing Jesus Christ as your Lord and Saviour" since WoW beta. Just to give an idea of what was tolerable and acceptable in game....

http://www.lucid-vision.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=6907

This was our entrance into WoW "Comic" - Plastered all over the official WoW forums from beta, to weeks after release. It was never banned or removed. Neither was our guild, when we in-game and on the forums made clear that any new recruits needed to embrace "Jesus as their Lord and Saviour." We were always spouting off about Jesus, and certainly never quiet or reserved about it. Hell, in Shadowbane we built a city shaped like a Cross, and named it Bethlehem, gave our buildings silly relgious based names, etc...

http://www.lucid-vision.org/news/pwned2.jpg

http://www.lucid-vision.org/sigs/lvbank.jpg

http://www.lucid-vision.org/sigs/mo_rip.jpg

http://www.lucid-vision.org/sigs/mh0.jpg


My only point being, we were never shy or reserved about it. I don't have as many WoW screenshots, but it was much the same there and it was accepted. So i would imagine there is a double-standard. Of course it's a bit easier to ban some gay players and label them as a group just trying to cause trouble, then an established guild that's been in existance for many years with a rather large following in the community.

[Shawn David Struck]

Okay, so since it wasn't a gay-only guild, then what does that post have to do with the issue raised?

I also truly don't follow your line of reasoning "Of course people are going to insult them and use slurs. They should just be quiet bout who they are!" unlike the countless hundred of guilds that have a real-life basis forming the guild alliance?

You're right. Blizzard does run a business. They're based in California.

That means they also have to follow fair practice and the law.

[Mangar]

I also truly don't follow your line of reasoning "Of course people are going to insult them and use slurs. They should just be quiet bout who they are!" unlike the countless hundred of guilds that have a real-life basis forming the guild alliance?

It's not reasoning. It's a statement of fact and reality. A statement based off of years of playing games just like this. It's what would, and probably already has happened.

In many games, the companies involved would have allowed such a guild to form. They also however, wouldn't get involved when the players harass, playerkill, and mock the guild in question. Such is par for the course in any "Roleplaying Game." Blizzard(and this is my opinion) which goes to great lengths to remove any sort of roleplaying, negativity, or reason to ever really insult another player. Simply chose to not deal with the headache that such guild formation would cause.

You may not like it, but such is there legal right. They protected themselves and there rights very clearly in the EULA, which means that from a legal standpoint they can disband and ban any player or guild they want. They don't need a reason. This will be an open and shut case for Blizzard, and even if some left-wing idealogue from California does decide the case against Blizzard for no other reason then personal beliefs. When it's appealed and the actual LAW is applied. Blizzard will win quite handily.


Okay, so since it wasn't a gay-only guild, then what does that post have to do with the issue raised?

I was agreeing with you that there *IS* a double-standard. That was kind of the point i was trying to make. I mean, let's be realistic - There is. The problem for you, is that from a legal standpoint: Blizzard is well within there rights to not only create such a double standard, but enforce it as they choose.

[Ed Oscuro]

That this banning is just Blizzards way of preventing in-game headaches. I mean lets be realistic: A "Gay" guild is going to be the target of not so much attacks, but lots of mockery, snide comments, and insults.
Thinking the issue over again, I think a simple anti-harrasment policy should have been tried. Banning gay clans is not an obvious necessity, you can point to the nature of the game and say that conflicts would necessarily arise, but I don't see anything that a simple anti-harassment policy would defeat.

I did have a concern that pitting "gay clans" versus "straight clans" could be a formula for disaster and bashing, but the more I think about it the more simple anti-harassment policies make sense.

We should also note that the event that started all this was for a GLBT-friendly clan; they weren't even exclusionary! Even so, if you're in an MMO, wouldn't you expect the right to associate with whom you wanted (barring PvP of course)? I think the anti-discrimination argument should be thrown out of the window, especially given that gay/lesbian groups have been shown to be discriminated against in the game.

At Mangar, I don't think you actually need to have played MMOs for years to have gained these insights. No offense meant by that, of course.

The nature of the game is such that hostilities arise. PvP does that. When I played SWG, I came to dislike a few players on the Imperial side for really making themselves a nuisance to our little group at a local base.

And yet, as Shawn David Struck said, that does not mean that you have to lose sight of basic decency and start using slurs or otherwise harass people. I guess this is a general flaw with the system: Throw people into a closed world, regular people along with those who thrive on making others feel miserable, and expect them to play nice.

Can't say I really miss it all.

Once again, I don't see a reason why a general anti-harassment policy would cover this. Make it simple.

[Mangar]

At Mangar, I don't think you actually need to have played MMOs for years to have gained these insights. No offense meant by that, of course.

I take none. You are correct. However, i would argue that it does give one insight as to why a basic Anti-Harassment policy would simply never work. There has already been such a policy written into EULA's on MMO type games from day one, yet as pretty much anyone can tell you - They are near unenforcable without literally creating a nanny-state within game. Something which isn't exactly good for business. In a role-playing world, the player wants to "Free" to play his character as he chooses. An "Evil" character is supposed to be harassing and mean. One mans harassment is another mans roleplaying.

A guild that essentially labels itself as a "Gay Guild" also throws there sexuality into the role-playing world. Which means insults, opinions, and actions taken can also be done within the context "Roleplaying." IE: A Dwarven Paladin could hate the "Gay Dwarves" as an insult to not only his deity, but to his race and people. It's certainly within the context of a Paladins thought process, and constant snide comments, arrogant "Holier then thou" attitudes, and looking upon them as subhuman(Dwarven :) ) scum would seem like a fair in-character response. Is this harassment or roleplaying?

Bottom Line: It creates lots of headaches, and for a squeaky clean game like WoW, which goes to great lengths to prevent any form of trash-talk. This isn't a surprising response. Had the guild created in other games with a more "Player Policed" atmosphere, i doubt it would have been a problem.

[Phosphor Dot Fossils]

I think the issue really boils down to...this.

http://www.thelogbook.com/earl/hizzouse/q1-06/comic2-9.jpg (http://www.thelogbook.com/earl/2006/02/09/leeroy-jenkins-for-president/)

[Ed Oscuro]

Bottom Line: It creates lots of headaches, and for a squeaky clean game like WoW, which goes to great lengths to prevent any form of trash-talk. This isn't a surprising response. Had the guild created in other games with a more "Player Policed" atmosphere, i doubt it would have been a problem.
I do understand why Blizzard wanted to keep this element out of the game, but it seems simply unrealistic to me. Again, I think a no-harassment policy, if followed correctly, really should suffice. I don't see the evidence that it wouldn't.

@ PDF: LOL

[Shawn David Struck]

I think the issue really boils down to...this.

http://www.thelogbook.com/earl/hizzouse/q1-06/comic2-9.jpg (http://www.thelogbook.com/earl/2006/02/09/leeroy-jenkins-for-president/)

You are my new hero for posting this.

Mangar:
That's great, if this were a "gay guild", or a damne-near anything-ONLY guild. Except it wasn't. It is, and was advertised as, a GBLT-friendly guild and even said they weren't "GLBT only".

And squeaky clean game?

Squeaky clean? You mean the same game with lots of the female characters cracking innuendos with the /silly audio comand? The same game that has Night Elf Pole Dancing nights centered around the female night elf's dance command that is pole dancing without the pole?

If you're going to have scads of guilds based on real-ife affiliations, then you shouldn't be using a policy created to protect groups from harassment to silence those same said groups.

[Ed Oscuro]

If you're going to have scads of guilds based on real-ife affiliations, then you shouldn't be using a policy created to protect groups from harassment to silence those same said groups.
Yes. What good's an anti-harrassment stance if you can't express yourself in the first place?

[Shawn David Struck]

Via Kotaku:

VICTORY.

http://kotaku.com/gaming/breaking/blizzards-reaction-to-gay-guilds-an-unfortunate-mistake-159536.php

Pretty much win-win.

[Ed Oscuro]

I like this part:


On the general topic of guild recruitment, Blizzard has added a guild-recruitment chat channel. While many players have an interest in guilds, many others do not, and are annoyed by the number of guild advertisements.
Dunno about Andrews; the girl/woman who posted @ GameSpy Forums about this was - OK, "seemed to be" - an easily offended, hypertense type. Glad that it was resolved in a good manner, though.

[Sothy]

I thought anyone who played WOW was gay anyway....

[AB Positive]

Hmm, maybe I can play WoW now.

Good thing they reversed their decision, as I'd actively protest every product they'd ever make if it stood.


-AB+