Are the Prozines THAT bad?

[hezeuschrist]

I certainly don't think so, but I know it comes up a lot (like in that ratings discussion) that a lot of people here think they're total trash and offer little to them.

What brings this up is ESIV: Oblivion. It's (hopefully) coming out in about 3 weeks and a whole lot of publications had 4-5 hours hands on with near-final builds last week.

IGN PC:
http://pc.ign.com/articles/691/691594p1.html

IGN X360:
http://xbox360.ign.com/articles/691/691449p1.html

GameSpot:
http://www.gamespot.com/xbox360/rpg/theelderscrollsivoblivion/news.html?sid=6144925

And then there's this guys blog, which for some reason is getting a ton of press.
http://wiredblogs.tripod.com/games/index.blog?entry_id=1422030

The first 3 say relatively the same thing, as did Game Informers spread last month. They offer a great cross section of how the game is likely to play out and that each one had a completely different experience is testament to the variety in the game. Highly informative.

This last guy just bitches about the draw distance for half of it. How is that at all constructive? He has a whopping 3 words about the gameplay, "Combat feels solid." Yet the grass on the ground not being as detailed for the entire view distance gets a paragraph.

This is a problem I find with a lot of the unprofessional publications that get a lot of traffic, like kotaku and other such places. Some guy who either praises a game endlessly because he's been looking forward to it since he was a seed in his dads flesh balloon, or some guy that bashes an incredibly popular game for pretty obviously simply the sake of being different.

[Poofta!]

hahaha i told you that the xbox360 version is gonna suck ass visually. you need to listen better boy.


and the reason the last guy talks so much about the graphics, is cause thats freaking important!!! ever try playing any of the last 3 GTAs on the PC and turn the draw distance all the way down? it SUCKS! same goes for the draw distance in Morrowind.

i cant wait to get my grubby hands on the pc box. finally something to give that monstrosity they call my video card a run for its money.

[squidblatt]

I give very little credit to most prozines since they do nothing but provide a marketing service with their previews and cater way too much to the mass market it their reviews. I read Hardcore Gamer and save my issues, but I usually just flip through Game Informer for ten minutes before tossing it. However, I don't consider reading some non-pro blog to be a good alternative.

That said, the draw distance was a huge disappointment for me in connection with MW on Xbox. In the non-GOTY release, it was like you were walking betweeen two discs. You couldn't even see the sky in its fullness unless you looked straight up. In fact, it was the main reason I put the game away. Considering how much the game emphasises exploration, being able to see most of the details is pretty major in my opinion. In Morrowind, you are even encouraged to go sightseeing when you can't see the sights.

[hezeuschrist]

hahaha i told you that the xbox360 version is gonna suck ass visually. you need to listen better boy.


and the reason the last guy talks so much about the graphics, is cause thats freaking important!!! ever try playing any of the last 3 GTAs on the PC and turn the draw distance all the way down? it SUCKS! same goes for the draw distance in Morrowind.

i cant wait to get my grubby hands on the pc box. finally something to give that monstrosity they call my video card a run for its money.

It still isn't a final build!! I mean... it can COMPLETELY CHANGE in 3 weeks! ... :( I had a lot more faith in Bethesda, but I do suppose it's still a first generation game. And it's Elder Scrolls, you can't have an Elder Scrolls game without bugs.

But even after reading that, I'm not in the least bit any less excited about the game. The GameSpot article mentions that the 360 version runs better than PC version on whatever they tested on, while both IGN previews say the opposite. None of them mention problems with the draw distance though. Low res distant textures, yes, but not mass fog or popup.

Either way, I'm not going to run it on my 9800 Pro at anywhere NEAR the way it'll look on my 360 in HD ;)

[YoshiM]

And then there's this guys blog, which for some reason is getting a ton of press.
http://wiredblogs.tripod.com/games/index.blog?entry_id=1422030

The first 3 say relatively the same thing, as did Game Informers spread last month. They offer a great cross section of how the game is likely to play out and that each one had a completely different experience is testament to the variety in the game. Highly informative.

This last guy just bitches about the draw distance for half of it. How is that at all constructive? He has a whopping 3 words about the gameplay, "Combat feels solid." Yet the grass on the ground not being as detailed for the entire view distance gets a paragraph.

This is a problem I find with a lot of the unprofessional publications that get a lot of traffic, like kotaku and other such places. Some guy who either praises a game endlessly because he's been looking forward to it since he was a seed in his dads flesh balloon, or some guy that bashes an incredibly popular game for pretty obviously simply the sake of being different.

Like many of the people that commented on that piece, did you read everything (as in comprehend) or kinda skim through to get the jist? If you read the comments a LOT of people saw what they wanted to see and just went batsh*t nuts.

The author's (who has written a couple of books-so does that still make him "unprofessional"?) intention was to not just rehash what every game site will have: mechanics, content, etc. The entry was an impression, not a full fledged multi-page preview.

The "bitching" is very constructive. It's an unbiased view of a game that's been getting unfettered praise from the majors for a long time. If this game is set to launch very soon and it's having stuttering issues at this point-I wanna know! I would hate to be in a situation where my character is being chased while on horseback and all of a sudden a building pops up out of nowhere, causing the horse to collide and stop (and possibly getting my character mauled in the process).

The author has a point: this is next gen so shouldn't these issues be *fixed* by now? I can let Morrowind slide: that game needed a decent PC to run and they did a good job shoe-horning it onto an Xbox. Same with Doom 3 and Half Life 2. But on the new system...for a game that's been 4 years in the making and is a headline title for the new system...I kinda expect a bit more.

Oh and who *really* believes what IGN shills out these days :D

[hezeuschrist]

Like many of the people that commented on that piece, did you read everything (as in comprehend) or kinda skim through to get the jist? If you read the comments a LOT of people saw what they wanted to see and just went batsh*t nuts.

The author's (who has written a couple of books-so does that still make him "unprofessional"?) intention was to not just rehash what every game site will have: mechanics, content, etc. The entry was an impression, not a full fledged multi-page preview.

The "bitching" is very constructive. It's an unbiased view of a game that's been getting unfettered praise from the majors for a long time. If this game is set to launch very soon and it's having stuttering issues at this point-I wanna know! I would hate to be in a situation where my character is being chased while on horseback and all of a sudden a building pops up out of nowhere, causing the horse to collide and stop (and possibly getting my character mauled in the process).

The author has a point: this is next gen so shouldn't these issues be *fixed* by now? I can let Morrowind slide: that game needed a decent PC to run and they did a good job shoe-horning it onto an Xbox. Same with Doom 3 and Half Life 2. But on the new system...for a game that's been 4 years in the making and is a headline title for the new system...I kinda expect a bit more.

Oh and who *really* believes what IGN shills out these days :D

Of course I read all of them, and you can't honestly believe what I've bolded would EVER be the case? He's bitching about bland textures in the distance and popup... in the distance. Thats the point: his bitching goes so far that he paints an unimaginable picture of a game thats completely broken because you can only see the world 5 feet around you. That simply isn't the case. If it wasn't the case when I saw it first hand at E3 10 months ago, it definitely isn't the case now. And if it were, the prozines would certainly have called it out.

As for it being different between the 360 and PC... the systems they tested the game on push multiple thousands of dollars per system, over $500 for the video card used in each test and nearly the same for the CPU, not to mention a whole rest of the rig. These aren't practical or common machines in any respect, so if you're like me with a two year old gaming rig, I'd have to build an entirely new system to get the same experience the previewers did.

On top of that, the "next gen" has been here for a whopping 3 months. Many people aren't giving anything enough time to mature into what it needs to do. If you compare launch PS2 to launch 360, the difference is incredible... but when you compare 4 years of development Xbox to launch 360... the gap is far, far smaller. It'll widen itself in time, but there hasn't been any.

Simply put, if Bethesda felt that this was going to completely ruin the game they just wouldn't put it out until they were ready. They weren't ready in November, so they didn't release it. If they aren't ready this spring, possibly due to these previews, they'll push it back again. Given the experience I had with Morrowind and the technical issues that plagued it (I even had to use the TES Construction Set to fix a broken dialog tree in the House Redoran quest), it didn't really bother me.

I'm not saying the game won't have issues, and I'm not saying draw distance won't be the biggest one... but for someone to claim the game is unplayable because the detail in the trees a mile in the distance isn't up to snuff is pretty ridiculous.

[YoshiM]

Of course I read all of them, and you can't honestly believe what I've bolded would EVER be the case? He's bitching about bland textures in the distance and popup... in the distance. Thats the point: his bitching goes so far that he paints an unimaginable picture of a game thats completely broken because you can only see the world 5 feet around you. That simply isn't the case. If it wasn't the case when I saw it first hand at E3 10 months ago, it definitely isn't the case now. And if it were, the prozines would certainly have called it out.

My horse example is based on an experience I had with GTA: SA- during a race (in which I had a huge lead) my car flew off of a hill and was arcing toward an intersection where I needed to turn left. I saw a building being drawn in on the corner of the street and figured I'd just bank my car off of it and continue. What happened was a small parking area with a short wall suddenly materialized *next* to the building, which my car (after being nudged in the air to go left) flew into, causing the vehicle to get stuck and me losing my place. Is GTA broken? No, not by any means. However the draw-in and pop-up can make things frustrating. With a next gen title I would hope that similar issues would be reduced or even eliminated.


As for it being different between the 360 and PC... the systems they tested the game on push multiple thousands of dollars per system, over $500 for the video card used in each test and nearly the same for the CPU, not to mention a whole rest of the rig. These aren't practical or common machines in any respect, so if you're like me with a two year old gaming rig, I'd have to build an entirely new system to get the same experience the previewers did.

The author tested it on an Xbox 360 if I'm not mistaken.


On top of that, the "next gen" has been here for a whopping 3 months. Many people aren't giving anything enough time to mature into what it needs to do. If you compare launch PS2 to launch 360, the difference is incredible... but when you compare 4 years of development Xbox to launch 360... the gap is far, far smaller. It'll widen itself in time, but there hasn't been any.

I must be spoiled by the Dreamcast's launch, which was in-freakin'-credible.


Simply put, if Bethesda felt that this was going to completely ruin the game they just wouldn't put it out until they were ready. If they aren't ready this spring, possibly due to these previews, they'll push it back again. Given the experience I had with Morrowind and the technical issues that plagued it (I even had to use the TES Construction Set to fix a broken dialog tree in the House Redoran quest), it didn't really bother me.

Ya think they learned their lesson after Daggerfall? Or Pirates of the Carribean? I hope they do fix the issues and not rely on Xbox Live Silver for downloading patches (or however that will work).


I'm not saying the game won't have issues, and I'm not saying draw distance won't be the biggest one... but for someone to claim the game is unplayable because the detail in the trees a mile in the distance isn't up to snuff is pretty ridiculous.

He's not saying it's unplayable. He said that it's not what Bethesda was selling.

[Poofta!]

im confident that your radeon 9800 pro, combine with a cpu above 3000 will yield the same results as a xbox 360. you can quote me on that. a regular pc has and always will have massive amounts of bandwith advantages over any console ever. hence its size, parts are configured for performance first, getting things to fit isnt an issue (im talking about standard PCs, not laptops or minis or whatever, those have terrible performance when compared to similar specs in a tower).


plus, isnt it more tempting using a keyboard/mouse? custom patches etc?

im not bashing the 360, i want one badly, but this particular game (and some genres) will always be better on the PC.

i dont consider price an issue, since more dedicated gamers already have 1k+ pc set ups. so comparing my pc to a 360, is kinda ridiculous. im not saying you should go out and spend 300-400 dollars on a video card and 200-400 for a cpu just for this game (unless youre crazy devoted and want the absolute best experience possible). but when you already have the machine, its silly not to opt for that version.



kinda back to the original question though, whether its an online magazine or written, i never take a single article too seriously, but i never dismiss any of them either. i read as much as i could if im unsure about something. that last guy's blog was pretty unbiased in my opinion, just cause he didnt give it a glowing review, it doesnt mean he has a hidden agenda. sometimes its the independant 'im different' reviews that are worth reading, they cover things that others dont.

[ProgrammingAce]

Oblivion is gold folks. No changes now, no updates... what you see is what you get. It's already gone to press.

[Ed Oscuro]

Either way, I'm not going to run it on my 9800 Pro at anywhere NEAR the way it'll look on my 360 in HD ;)
I'll be running it on my 7800 GTX...and it'll probably look the same. D'OH

[Ed Oscuro]

im confident that your radeon 9800 pro, combine with a cpu above 3000 will yield the same results as a xbox 360.
That's pretty amazing given that the 360 has a more advanced graphics chip. Talking about computer bandwidth is also misleading - the 360 is optimized for games, and squeezes the hardware more, especially when you consider that the games are only being programmed for one specific setup, compared to the nearly infinite possible setups for a PC.

[hezeuschrist]

im confident that your radeon 9800 pro, combine with a cpu above 3000 will yield the same results as a xbox 360. you can quote me on that.

I garantee that is not the case, it simply isn't. If I were supplied with both I would thoroughly test it as well, but I'm not wasting another $50 on the PC game to prove a point.

I think you're giving PC hardware WAY too much credit. My system is just over two years old and it's fading fast. Not to mention I would have to spend an assload of time setting up my PC to run on my HDTV and spend a bundle on some pretty massive cables as well.

Furthermore, the PC's used to preview this game contained an X1900 and AMD Athlon FX Dual Core... a $500 and $800 card and chip respectively. The 360 and those PC's, set up by Bethesda themselves, had little to no difference between them according to the previews. My PC isn't half of what that PC is, and god forbid you play this game on a single core CPU. Sure, I could compromise all over the place with details and resolution, but why would I bother when I can play what's essentially the PC game at all max details (says Bethesda) on a screen twice the size of my monitor, with a wireless controller laying back in bed?

There are certain games like Doom 3 and Half Life 2 that scale fantastically well and we all know that Oblivion isn't backed by the amazing talent behind those titles. It's going to be a great game, but it's not going to be a technological miracle.

Simply put, the game will look leagues better on my HDTV running off a 360 than it would with my PC. I assure you of that.

I know I'm sounding a bit fanboyish (well, a lot fanboyish), but I just find it hard to swallow that the overwhelming majority didn't even mention the issue of popup. Maybe it's because he wasn't feening to get his hands on it like most of us, or maybe it's because it's exactly like it was in morrowind and those who played it didn't really give it a second thought. I don't know. But I do know that he was using the issue to announce his gripes with the "HD Era" in its entirety, and that always paints whatever the subject is in a far more negative light than it usually deserves.

[dendawg]

The "bitching" is very constructive. It's an unbiased view of a game that's been getting unfettered praise from the majors for a long time. If this game is set to launch very soon and it's having stuttering issues at this point-I wanna know! I would hate to be in a situation where my character is being chased while on horseback and all of a sudden a building pops up out of nowhere, causing the horse to collide and stop (and possibly getting my character mauled in the process).

IMHO, Horizon Gnomes on a system as advanced as the 360 is inexcusable, no matter the justification.

[Poofta!]

im confident that your radeon 9800 pro, combine with a cpu above 3000 will yield the same results as a xbox 360. you can quote me on that.

I garantee that is not the case, it simply isn't. If I were supplied with both I would thoroughly test it as well, but I'm not wasting another $50 on the PC game to prove a point.

I think you're giving PC hardware WAY too much credit. My system is just over two years old and it's fading fast. Not to mention I would have to spend an assload of time setting up my PC to run on my HDTV and spend a bundle on some pretty massive cables as well.

Furthermore, the PC's used to preview this game contained an X1900 and AMD Athlon FX Dual Core... a $500 and $800 card and chip respectively. The 360 and those PC's, set up by Bethesda themselves, had little to no difference between them according to the previews. My PC isn't half of what that PC is, and god forbid you play this game on a single core CPU. Sure, I could compromise all over the place with details and resolution, but why would I bother when I can play what's essentially the PC game at all max details (says Bethesda) on a screen twice the size of my monitor, with a wireless controller laying back in bed?

There are certain games like Doom 3 and Half Life 2 that scale fantastically well and we all know that Oblivion isn't backed by the amazing talent behind those titles. It's going to be a great game, but it's not going to be a technological miracle.

Simply put, the game will look leagues better on my HDTV running off a 360 than it would with my PC. I assure you of that.

I know I'm sounding a bit fanboyish (well, a lot fanboyish), but I just find it hard to swallow that the overwhelming majority didn't even mention the issue of popup. Maybe it's because he wasn't feening to get his hands on it like most of us, or maybe it's because it's exactly like it was in morrowind and those who played it didn't really give it a second thought. I don't know. But I do know that he was using the issue to announce his gripes with the "HD Era" in its entirety, and that always paints whatever the subject is in a far more negative light than it usually deserves.



i give pc a lot of credit cause ive been involved in countless amounts of coding and programing on the pc since age 12. i live and breath pc. i know what its capable of. this doesnt stop me from loving consoles though, but i know what works better where.

also, your HDTV is nowhere near the quality of a pc monitor. a cheap LCD is 1280x1024. a cheap CRT is above 1680x res. your HDTV, depending on its generation, is no more than 1080. keep in mind, that even if you run your pc version at 640x, on your 21" CRT, itll look just as good (or from what ive tested with Doom3) better than your HDTV.

ill be glad to send you test copy of oblivion for the pc so you could test it out.

[hezeuschrist]

also, your HDTV is nowhere near the quality of a pc monitor. a cheap LCD is 1280x1024. a cheap CRT is above 1680x res. your HDTV, depending on its generation, is no more than 1080. keep in mind, that even if you run your pc version at 640x, on your 21" CRT, itll look just as good (or from what ive tested with Doom3) better than your HDTV.

ill be glad to send you test copy of oblivion for the pc so you could test it out.

I'd be more than happy to do some sort of tests, becuase my PC can't run FEAR at a respectable framerate with any sort of details, let alone Oblivion. Oblivion may even choke the options I'm allowed based on my setup. You've got to understand that the only way I can compare the two equally is to put the resolution to 1080x (which I likely won't be able to do) and then push every detail to the max. It'll be a slideshow.

And yes, I understand that PC Monitors have been offering far higher than "HD" resolutions for years, but my PC monitor is half the size of my TV, and is not widescreen. Both are CRT, and I won't be upgrading my TV until SED is a decently affordable solution.