Sony loses immersion appeal

[njiska]

OK bitch about the news posting all you want, but this is BIG.

From Joystiq:
Just to bring you up to speed: Immersion, a company specializing in haptic technology, in 2003 sued both Sony and Microsoft for patent infringement, claiming both companies used Immersion's intellectual property (IP) in their console's controllers. Microsoft settled out of court (buying a share of Immersion in the process), but Sony fought on. Sony lost, and the judge ruled that Sony must suspend the sale of "Playstation consoles, Dualshock controllers," and a few dozen games, including Vice City, Final Fantasy X, and Metal Gear Solid 2. Sony filed for appeal, and has been allowed to sell all aforementioned products while the decision is under appeal.

The Wall Street Journal this morning reports that a federal judge rejected Sony's appeal and upheld the earlier decision (which also includes a $90.7 million payment by Sony to Immersion). Sony argued that Craig Thorner, a former paid consultant to Immersion, submitted testimony on Sony's behalf. However, US District Judge Claudia Wilken noted that Thorner was an "unreliable" witness, citing "strong evidence" that suggest Thorner's testimony was directly affected by the $150,000 Sony had paid him as "advance royalty" to license Thorner's patents in the future.

It seems very ridiculous that Sony would have to halt production on its flagship console, as well as most of the company's best-selling titles, but that may very well be the case here. Could this be a reason for Sony's (conceptual) "boomerang" PS3 controller? If the PlayStation 3 cannot utilize its force feedback technology from the past, how is this going to affect backwards compatibility? Chalk this up as another issue for Sony, alongside Cell processor issues, Blu-ray issues, delay rumors, and more than a few ad campaigns that have backfired.

[pacmanhat]

Damn. The reasons to dislike Sony are really piling up.

Anyways, I'm really interested to see how this affects things. It's gonna be weird to see Playstations completely off of every shelf in the country (if that's what actually ends up happening), but I guess we'll have to wait and see. This seems like one of those things that could mean nothing or everything. In the mean time...

:popcorn:

[Cmtz]

I just don't see Sony's PS2 going away.

[njiska]

I just don't see Sony's PS2 going away.

Nor do I, but that's the ruling. It'll be interesting to see how this plays out.

[Lozza]

Now is the time to buy a PS2 and the above mentioned games, just in case! LOL

[Cmtz]

I just don't see Sony's PS2 going away.

Nor do I, but that's the ruling. It'll be interesting to see how this plays out.

I would like see what happens. I just think Sony can still wrap all this stuff with paper work. Just like big companies.

[pacmanhat]

I just don't see Sony's PS2 going away.

Nor do I, but that's the ruling. It'll be interesting to see how this plays out.

I would like see what happens. I just think Sony can still wrap all this stuff with paper work. Just like big companies.
My thoughts exactly. If it does happen, though, it could mean a serious blow not just to the PS2, but the PS3 as well.

[badinsults]

It goes to show you, if you are going to create a mass produced product, make sure that you aren't treading on the toes of other companies.

[njiska]

Apparently the appeal over the injuction of sales is still pending,which is good for Sony i guess, but given the ruling on the infringment appeal it doesn't bode well for injunction.

[MrRoboto19XX]

This is shaping up to be the precursor to one heck of a console war.

[InsaneDavid]

So many will side against Sony here and say "they should have known" and so forth, yet when I brought up the lawsuit where Atari sued (and won against) Sega for the design of the Mega Drive / Genesis infringing on Atari's European market technology patents in Classic Gaming - I had a hard time proving it, and everyone went on and on how that's so stupid and how dumb it was to sue over something stupid like that, and how could Sega no realize that and so forth. LOL Not trying to flame or be a fanboy, I just find it funny. :) Just in case anyone cares about that (and shouldn't) the thread is here (http://www.digitpress.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=80138).

Now back to the Sony controller problems. Honestly from the start Immersion went "Money? Me too! Me too!" and tossed up the lawsuit. Yes, they do have the right to do that but the dirty pool played in the past and present concerning this is going to continue to drag it through the mud. In the end however, I say the almighty dollar will satisfy them, as it does any other company.

[njiska]

Now back to the Sony controller problems. Honestly from the start Immersion went "Money? Me too! Me too!" and tossed up the lawsuit. Yes, they do have the right to do that but the dirty pool played in the past and present concerning this is going to continue to drag it through the mud. In the end however, I say the almighty dollar will satisfy them, as it does any other company.

Actually that's not true. Immerrsion has long held the pattent on this technology and the tech is their major source of income. This isn't a frivilous lawsuit like the JPEG patent or DVR patent or SCO, this is a smaller company defending it's primary source of income.

Haptic tech is really all the company is.

[le geek]

Don't forget, when Microsoft settled with the company, they became a large shareholder. So in effect if Sony settled and had to pay royalties per unit sold they would be effectively putting money the coffers of their competition.

Ben

[njiska]

Don't forget, when Microsoft settled with the company, they became a large shareholder. So in effect if Sony settled and had to pay royalties per unit sold they would be effectively putting money the coffers of their competition.

Ben

Here's a bit on that from an article in Forbes last year:

Moreover, Immersion Chief Executive Victor Viegas says the settlement also includes a sub-license that allows Microsoft to cut license agreements on Immersion's technology with other companies--including Sony. Under such a deal Microsoft would share license revenue. But should Immersion settle with Sony, the latter would be obligated to pay Microsoft a minimum of $15 million. That's pocket change to a company that generates billions in cash every year, but could be viewed as a symbolic victory for Microsoft over Sony.

[pacmanhat]

Don't forget, when Microsoft settled with the company, they became a large shareholder. So in effect if Sony settled and had to pay royalties per unit sold they would be effectively putting money the coffers of their competition.

Ben

Here's a bit on that from an article in Forbes last year:

Moreover, Immersion Chief Executive Victor Viegas says the settlement also includes a sub-license that allows Microsoft to cut license agreements on Immersion's technology with other companies--including Sony. Under such a deal Microsoft would share license revenue. But should Immersion settle with Sony, the latter would be obligated to pay Microsoft a minimum of $15 million. That's pocket change to a company that generates billions in cash every year, but could be viewed as a symbolic victory for Microsoft over Sony.

This is precisely why I prefer MS to Sony as a company in general. They're smarter, they care more about their customers, and they aren't nearly as greedy.

[§ Gideon §]

According to the rules, the court made the right decision--but our rules are pretty f'ed up at this point, so I don't know what to think.

Regardless, Sony decided to join the corporate game, so Sony deserves to face the consequences--however ridiculous they may be. We'll see what happens. I wonder if this'll even be in the papers tomorrow...

[Lothars]

Don't forget, when Microsoft settled with the company, they became a large shareholder. So in effect if Sony settled and had to pay royalties per unit sold they would be effectively putting money the coffers of their competition.

Ben

Here's a bit on that from an article in Forbes last year:

Moreover, Immersion Chief Executive Victor Viegas says the settlement also includes a sub-license that allows Microsoft to cut license agreements on Immersion's technology with other companies--including Sony. Under such a deal Microsoft would share license revenue. But should Immersion settle with Sony, the latter would be obligated to pay Microsoft a minimum of $15 million. That's pocket change to a company that generates billions in cash every year, but could be viewed as a symbolic victory for Microsoft over Sony.

This is precisely why I prefer MS to Sony as a company in general. They're smarter, they care more about their customers, and they aren't nearly as greedy.

LOL LMFAO

Microsoft is not smarter than sony, no way in hell are they smarter

They also don't care about the customers, most bigger companies don't, but your post there shows your seeming like a microsoft fanboy, most corporations are just as bad but to say that about microsoft is laughable at best.
but I definitly don't agree with Sony Losing this lawsuit,

that's life though.

[njiska]

Don't forget, when Microsoft settled with the company, they became a large shareholder. So in effect if Sony settled and had to pay royalties per unit sold they would be effectively putting money the coffers of their competition.

Ben

Here's a bit on that from an article in Forbes last year:

Moreover, Immersion Chief Executive Victor Viegas says the settlement also includes a sub-license that allows Microsoft to cut license agreements on Immersion's technology with other companies--including Sony. Under such a deal Microsoft would share license revenue. But should Immersion settle with Sony, the latter would be obligated to pay Microsoft a minimum of $15 million. That's pocket change to a company that generates billions in cash every year, but could be viewed as a symbolic victory for Microsoft over Sony.

This is precisely why I prefer MS to Sony as a company in general. They're smarter, they care more about their customers, and they aren't nearly as greedy.

LOL LMFAO

Microsoft is not smarter than sony, no way in hell are they smarter

They also don't care about the customers, most bigger companies don't, but your post there shows your seeming like a microsoft fanboy, most corporations are just as bad but to say that about microsoft is laughable at best.
but I definitly don't agree with Sony Losing this lawsuit,

that's life though.

Sony smarter? Hmm lets check the facts. Microsoft horribly rich company running in the black. Sony running heavily in the red.

When it comes to business MS is historically the smarter company and that's provable.

When it comes to customer service they're both rating pretty poor (although Sony ranks slightly worse in my mind because of the DRE fiasco).

Microsoft has come a long way in customer care from the evil giant they use to be.

[Richter Belmount]

Heh I hope sony finally learns from microsoft thats all I Have to say , dont do things that can risk business.

[Lothars]

Don't forget, when Microsoft settled with the company, they became a large shareholder. So in effect if Sony settled and had to pay royalties per unit sold they would be effectively putting money the coffers of their competition.

Ben

Here's a bit on that from an article in Forbes last year:

Moreover, Immersion Chief Executive Victor Viegas says the settlement also includes a sub-license that allows Microsoft to cut license agreements on Immersion's technology with other companies--including Sony. Under such a deal Microsoft would share license revenue. But should Immersion settle with Sony, the latter would be obligated to pay Microsoft a minimum of $15 million. That's pocket change to a company that generates billions in cash every year, but could be viewed as a symbolic victory for Microsoft over Sony.

This is precisely why I prefer MS to Sony as a company in general. They're smarter, they care more about their customers, and they aren't nearly as greedy.

LOL LMFAO

Microsoft is not smarter than sony, no way in hell are they smarter

They also don't care about the customers, most bigger companies don't, but your post there shows your seeming like a microsoft fanboy, most corporations are just as bad but to say that about microsoft is laughable at best.
but I definitly don't agree with Sony Losing this lawsuit,

that's life though.

Sony smarter? Hmm lets check the facts. Microsoft horribly rich company running in the black. Sony running heavily in the red.

When it comes to business MS is historically the smarter company and that's provable.

When it comes to customer service they're both rating pretty poor (although Sony ranks slightly worse in my mind because of the DRE fiasco).

Microsoft has come a long way in customer care from the evil giant they use to be.

I actually never said Sony is smarter than Microsoft but just that Microsoft is not smarter than Sony

They both have made pretty stupid mistakes, I still don't think that Microsoft is the smarter company, but they do screw up big time as does Sony.

[Lothars]

Heh I hope sony finally learns from microsoft thats all I Have to say , dont do things that can risk business.

I do agree with that part of it, they should have just settled and be done with it, though I think the lawsuit was idiotic in the first place.

[njiska]

Heh I hope sony finally learns from microsoft thats all I Have to say , dont do things that can risk business.

I do agree with that part of it, they should have just settled and be done with it, though I think the lawsuit was idiotic in the first place.

Would you care to explain why? I've always wondered why people think this lawsuit is pointless.

I mean Immersion is a small company and their sole source of income is their Haptic technology which is protected by a patent that Sony has blatantly violated.

It's not about grabbing money from someone successful, it's about protecting your business.

[pacmanhat]

[
LOL LMFAO

Microsoft is not smarter than sony, no way in hell are they smarter

They also don't care about the customers, most bigger companies don't, but your post there shows your seeming like a microsoft fanboy, most corporations are just as bad but to say that about microsoft is laughable at best.
but I definitly don't agree with Sony Losing this lawsuit,

that's life though.

Have you ever worked with Microsoft's customer service? It's the best I've ever encountered. If your experience is different, then I seriously hope you're able to give them a second chance.

And calling me a fanboy? I certainly hope you're joking.

[Push Upstairs]

When it comes to business MS is historically the smarter company and that's provable.

I remember seeing some program on TV about great business deals and Microsoft's deal with IBM and including DOS on the machines was downright genius.

If i ever had to do battles in the boardroom i would rather Bill Gates to be on *MY* side.

[Lothars]

Well that's a good point about Immersion being a small company and protecting there assets

I do think that Sony should have just settle like Microsoft did, but I also see why Sony is fighting it,

I dunno why I think the lawsuit shouldn't of happened but it is just something that I disagree with,

We will see, I could see something happening in the appeal.

Sorry if my post doesn't make sense, It seems like im blabbing on.

[njiska]

Well that's a good point about Immersion being a small company and protecting there assets

I do think that Sony should have just settle like Microsoft did, but I also see why Sony is fighting it,

I dunno why I think the lawsuit shouldn't of happened but it is just something that I disagree with,

We will see, I could see something happening in the appeal.

Sorry if my post doesn't make sense, It seems like im blabbing on.

Perhaps it's a latent hatred of the genuinely flawed patent system that has lead to such bullshit as the JPEG Patent or the SCO linux case. I know that's why i hate most IP cases.

But when you really look at the details of this case it's very specific and it really does make sense. There's a reason why only Sony and MS were targeted and not Nintendo and that's because the immresion patent is over very specific tech.

It's kind of nice to see an IP lawsuit that isn't driven by greed.

[Poofta!]

So many will side against Sony here and say "they should have known" and so forth, yet when I brought up the lawsuit where Atari sued (and won against) Sega for the design of the Mega Drive / Genesis infringing on Atari's European market technology patents in Classic Gaming - I had a hard time proving it, and everyone went on and on how that's so stupid and how dumb it was to sue over something stupid like that, and how could Sega no realize that and so forth. LOL Not trying to flame or be a fanboy, I just find it funny. :) Just in case anyone cares about that (and shouldn't) the thread is here (http://www.digitpress.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=80138).

wanna know why? heres what you said initially:



the Mega Drive / Genesis was nothing more than Atari's European market technology which Sega stole and reverse engineered. Sega later lost a lawsuit to Atari in the United States in which Atari won an unconditional victory.

Honestly Sega never came up with anything successful on their own. When they did develop things on their own such as the Saturn (too difficult to develop for and fully utilize one of the SH2 cores let alone both) or Dreamcast (too little too late after SoJ slowly rotted out SoA over the years) the damage was already done.

you made it sound like sega stole the technology for the system from atari (wrong on SOOO many levels) and that sega is a failure both as a business company and a gaming company, which again, couldnt be farther from the truth, you riled up many people who enjoyed and still enjoy the games brought to us by and for sega consoles.

if you had mentioned from the get-go that it was only the pin controller input that was stolen, i garantee the reply would be different. you also made it seem that this lawsuit screwed sega as a company (which it didnt, 150k is nothing). another way this is different is that Immersion's main profit IS from the rumble technology, while i doubt atari's main profit margin came from licensing and manufacturing 9-pin connectors :roll:

so there you have it. your statement in the old thread was completely off-topic, baseless, degrading, insulting and juvenile.

[InsaneDavid]

So many will side against Sony here and say "they should have known" and so forth, yet when I brought up the lawsuit where Atari sued (and won against) Sega for the design of the Mega Drive / Genesis infringing on Atari's European market technology patents in Classic Gaming - I had a hard time proving it, and everyone went on and on how that's so stupid and how dumb it was to sue over something stupid like that, and how could Sega no realize that and so forth. LOL Not trying to flame or be a fanboy, I just find it funny. :) Just in case anyone cares about that (and shouldn't) the thread is here (http://www.digitpress.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=80138).

wanna know why? heres what you said initially:



the Mega Drive / Genesis was nothing more than Atari's European market technology which Sega stole and reverse engineered. Sega later lost a lawsuit to Atari in the United States in which Atari won an unconditional victory.

Honestly Sega never came up with anything successful on their own. When they did develop things on their own such as the Saturn (too difficult to develop for and fully utilize one of the SH2 cores let alone both) or Dreamcast (too little too late after SoJ slowly rotted out SoA over the years) the damage was already done.

you made it sound like sega stole the technology for the system from atari (wrong on SOOO many levels) and that sega is a failure both as a business company and a gaming company, which again, couldnt be farther from the truth, you riled up many people who enjoyed and still enjoy the games brought to us by and for sega consoles.

if you had mentioned from the get-go that it was only the pin controller input that was stolen, i garantee the reply would be different. you also made it seem that this lawsuit screwed sega as a company (which it didnt, 150k is nothing). another way this is different is that Immersion's main profit IS from the rumble technology, while i doubt atari's main profit margin came from licensing and manufacturing 9-pin connectors :roll:

so there you have it. your statement in the old thread was completely off-topic, baseless, degrading, insulting and juvenile.

I wasn't talking about the controller pinout, it had to do with a single processor based 16-Bit design - the posts about the controller socket were NOT made by me.


...It was stuff that had to do with the Atari ST architecture and things like what Ed Oscuro mentioned. The Genesis / Mega Drive was based around the Atari ST computer architecture, a single 16-Bit microprocessor, which Atari Corp held a patent for. That's why I said the Genesis / Mega Drive was based on "Atari's European market technology."

If I'm not feeling so under the weather later I'll dig it up. It was basic stuff that Atari created, same as when everyone had to pay royalties to Magnavox in years previous. Sega saw it as big enough threat to settle out of court and adhere to all of Atari Corp's terms.

The PCEngine / TurboGrafx-16 didn't have the same patent infringement issues since it was built around two custom 8 bit co-processors along with a 16 bit graphics engine, which kept it in the clear. (since I know that'll come up sooner or later)

Again, this is one of those things that needs to be fully fleshed out and properly documented in that grand unbiased unwritten textbook on the history of the video game industry - that won't happen until you can get a degree in electronic entertainment history the same way you can earn a degree in art or film history. :)

As njiska said about crap IP lawsuits being driven by greed (it good that this Sony one not being yet another), the Atari Corp v. Sega lawsuit was just one of those.

I'm going to keep this from being a flame war because this thread has nothing to do with that one and I don't make personal attacks here, but including taking my time with SoA into mind, I would NEVER at any level say Sega was a failure as a company. I was making a point that companies do screw up with not checking what's already been done before they spend millions to develop a hardware architecture. If anything I riled people up to a poorly documented part of game history. I will admit though I didn't detail it the way I would have liked, but as I also said in those posts, "I'm not feeling so under the weather later I'll dig it up." I have never been anti-Sega, for Bushnell's sake I spent two months figuring out the US/JPN stuff for the X'Eye, I paint mod my Dreamcasts, I'm part of the homebrew scene for the DC both in emulation and homebrew development - Daytona USA and VirtualOn *holds up TwinStick* are on my top 10 all time favorite games list. Look at my avatar!! LOL

Now, my apologies for sending this thread off topic yet again. :hail: I'm done with it, sorry everyone.

[nik]

Wow, so finally sony has to do somthing diffrent... I guess this means they just knocked themselves out.

DING DING DING, the main event coming up...

We know exactly whats in microsofts draws, nintendo better have a decent haymaker.

I feel kind of bad for sony, I liked the oringal playstation, just never got into the ps2, even though I had 3 at various times..

[Griking]

Why does any of this mean that Sony needs to pull the PS2 off the market? Couldn't they just replace the controllers in the bundles with different ones that don't infringe on Immersion's patent?

So does this mean that Immersion has the rights to all force feedback controllers period or can new force feedback controllers be designed in a way that doesn't infringe on their patent?

Either way, its a blow for Sony.

[Ed Oscuro]

Force feedback, eh, who needs it?

Buzzz...buzzz....ahhh, my wrists! LOL

Yeah, Microsoft definitely did the smart thing by investing in the company; Sony kept their pride, but now they need to pay. Probably only caught onto that late, as well.

Really a pretty stupid patent, if you ask me. Isn't this just the motors in the console? Never seemed especially advanced to me. Maybe if it could direct vibrations one way or another...

[njiska]

Force feedback, eh, who needs it?

Buzzz...buzzz....ahhh, my wrists! LOL

Yeah, Microsoft definitely did the smart thing by investing in the company; Sony kept their pride, but now they need to pay. Probably only caught onto that late, as well.

Really a pretty stupid patent, if you ask me. Isn't this just the motors in the console? Never seemed especially advanced to me. Maybe if it could direct vibrations one way or another...

That patenet is actually more about how the two different motors, with specific different weight respond to interaction on screen. If you read the patent it isn't as blanket as it seems.

[James]

Why does any of this mean that Sony needs to pull the PS2 off the market? Couldn't they just replace the controllers in the bundles with different ones that don't infringe on Immersion's patent?

So does this mean that Immersion has the rights to all force feedback controllers period or can new force feedback controllers be designed in a way that doesn't infringe on their patent?

Either way, its a blow for Sony.

If Sony does have to actually remove all infringing technology off of store shelves pending some kind of formal payoff and remember I'm pretty sure this patent case only affects Playstation products sold within the US, then they'd have to replace the tech. with some different kind of rumble technology or just forego force feedback all together which would be the simplest solution. We'll wait and see.

[GarrettCRW]

Remember how Nintendo got bitch-smacked for its arrogance in the NES/Famicom days?

Guess what? The same thing is now happening to Sony. My advice to Sony: get some serious first and second party support. Now.

[Jasoco]

Have you ever worked with Microsoft's customer service? It's the best I've ever encountered. If your experience is different, then I seriously hope you're able to give them a second chance.Actually, I agree with this. The time I called both TiVo and Microsoft support the same day to cancel both a TiVo service on a dead TiVo and my unused LIVE account, I found the MS support guy very very helpful. While calling TiVo made me have to talk to a computer for 3 minutes before finally getting an option to talk to a real human. Though TiVo was helpful too. I actually thought MS Support would have tried to keep me from canceling my account.

I may not like their Operating System, but their support is very nice. LOL

[Neo Rasa]

I've heard a lot of success stories with the 360 as well. People getting new ones FedEx overnighted for free to them like not even two days after they mail their defective one out.

They might just be doing repairs now though but God damn that's awesome compared to any other console manufacturer. Only Nintendo comes close.

[googlefest1]

So many will side against Sony here and say "they should have known" and so forth, yet when I brought up the lawsuit where Atari sued (and won against) Sega for the design of the Mega Drive / Genesis infringing on Atari's European market technology patents in Classic Gaming - I had a hard time proving it, and everyone went on and on how that's so stupid and how dumb it was to sue over something stupid like that, and how could Sega no realize that and so forth. LOL Not trying to flame or be a fanboy, I just find it funny. :) Just in case anyone cares about that (and shouldn't) the thread is here (http://www.digitpress.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=80138).

Now back to the Sony controller problems. Honestly from the start Immersion went "Money? Me too! Me too!" and tossed up the lawsuit. Yes, they do have the right to do that but the dirty pool played in the past and present concerning this is going to continue to drag it through the mud. In the end however, I say the almighty dollar will satisfy them, as it does any other company.

i don't think this is in the same league as the genesis lawsuit. Force feedback in a controler is a novel idea that should have a right to a pattent -- unlike a pattent on interfaceing to a particular 16bit microproccesor when there realy is only one way.

i will be realy surprised if sony realy has to pull a ton of product off the shelf -- any more details on this -- is there a deadline or something?

[Ed Oscuro]

That patent is actually more about how the two different motors, with specific different weight respond to interaction on screen. If you read the patent it isn't as blanket as it seems.
Fair 'nuff, McGruff. :)