video standards - Please share your objective impressions?

[kevin_psx]

Please share your experience & impressions.




Mine:

TV SWITCHBOX = Yuck. RF interference all over the place. Avoid like the plague.


RF CABLE = Better but still has interference. Bad.


COMPOSITE (luminance+chrominance) = Okay, but the color is blurred. Turn the Sharpness setting all the way up & it might help.


S-VIDEO (luminance / chrominance) = Beautiful. Crystal clear sharpness reminds me of a VGA monitor!


RGB or COMPONENT (L / R-L / B-L) in 480 progressive = Don't see any difference? Suppose if I had a huge 50 inch screen, I would, but on my tiny 27 incher, I see no difference.

[Kitsune Sniper]

PAL/SECAM
Retarded. Simply, utterly retarded.

[SNKFan75]

Right now:

Composite: Looks okay...some color distortion and not as sharp as one would like.

S-Video: Clean, colors look better, crisp images and overall clean look to it.

Component: Colors don't bleed, ultra sharp but not a huge difference to S-Video. Smoother look to it all (when playing fighting games).

I use a 27" WEGA for gaming and a Pelican System Selector Pro box.


SNKFan75

[Sweater Fish Deluxe]

Please share your experience & impressions.
I find that it depends a lot on what system you're talking about.

On the Master System and Genesis RGB (not progressive on those systems) is a huge improvement because the video encoder used to produce the composite image was not very good so there was a ton of dot crawl (which is why I actually usually prefer to turn the shrapness *DOWN* a bit on composite images).

On the other hand, Nintendo systems have generally had pretty good video encoders, so composite or s-video when possible looks really good and RGB (at least on the SNES, which is the only Nintewndo system I've ever gotten RGB out of) doesn't seem like such a huge improvement. Same goes for the Saturn, it has pretty nice s-video and composite images, so when I got my Saturn RGB cable I wasn't as impressed as when I first built my SMS/Genesis RGB cable.

On the Dreamcast, though, I find that the s-video signal has a somewhat annoying flicker or shimmer, which RGB fixes. But of course, on the Dreamcast VGA (basically progressive RGB) looks really a whole lot better. Part of that may be down to te quality of VGA monitors compared to most TVs, which is another thing to consider when talking about how different signals look.

RF is pretty bad, though, that's for sure. I really need to mod my Coleco.

This is all in NTSC, PAL does have better color separation and a better picture in general, but since I'm used to NTSC I'm pretty bothered by the flicker caused by the slower refresh rate.


...word is bondage...

[njiska]

RF= Shit for everything except pong. Honestly it just looks awful.

Composite = Usually good, but not consistent. ON the PS2 it looks terrible 90% of the time, even on a small screen, because the video encoder is so bad, meanwhile it Eternal Darkness in composite looks so damn good i once mistook it for S-Video. Looks great on the NES

S-Video/Component/RGB = In SD they're pretty much a trade off. The video quality is always supurb but the color quality can vary from TV to TV, especially with component.

HD Component/RGB = Again looks incredibly but can vary based on you're TV hardware.

VGA = Simliar to component although i usually find the image just slightly crisper.

DVI-D/HDMI - Best of the best if you have a Digital display.

[unwinddesign]

Component > everything else

By a long shot, regardless of whether you have an HDTV or not.

Of course, HDMI shits on component, but since no current system outputs an HDMI or DVI signal, I didn't take that into account.

[njiska]

Component > everything else

By a long shot, regardless of whether you have an HDTV or not.

Of course, HDMI shits on component, but since no current system outputs an HDMI or DVI signal, I didn't take that into account.

I gotta disagree with you there. VGA, especially on the 360, is fucking incredible. It was grand on the DC too.

[Joker T]

I have all my systems currently on my TV connected through composite. On my 27 Inch JVC and it looks great. I did notice that I have some S-Video connectors on the back and a componet input. I may get some componet cables for my TV now, and I will also use them when I get an HDTV someday. I feel like I would be wasting my money if I bought S-Video cables, because I'm guessing it doesn't look great on an HDTV. Correct me if I'm wrong on that.

[kevin_psx]

HDMI shits on component, I thought HDMI was Component? Guess not. Why is it superior to component?

And please don't say "because it's digital". A high-quality analog signal can run circles around a digital signal. (Points to his 170meg Stargate SG1 download that is digital, but looks worse than a VHS analog tape.)

PAL/SECAM Retarded. Simply, utterly retarded. Don't know secam.


What's wrong with PAL? Based on specs I've read it looks superior to NTSC:
- around 100 more scanlines for higher resolution/detail
- color-correction is built-in so it doesn't suffer from NTSC's 'never the same color' problem
- 25 frames a second = easy movie to TV conversion. No need for the cumbersome/distorting 3:2 pulldown that NTSC requires.

PAL looks superior. Why do you think it's retarded?

[Kitsune Sniper]

PAL/SECAM Retarded. Simply, utterly retarded. Don't know secam.


What's wrong with PAL? Based on specs I've read it looks superior to NTSC:
- around 100 more scanlines for higher resolution/detail
- color-correction is built-in so it doesn't suffer from NTSC's 'never the same color' problem
- 25 frames a second = easy movie to TV conversion. No need for the cumbersome/distorting 3:2 pulldown that NTSC requires.

PAL looks superior. Why do you think it's retarded?

Sorry, I've heard both formats be named interchangeably. Anyway, I hate it because you can't just use PAL games or videotapes / movies on NTSC hardware (DVD or game regions nonwithstanding); and there's also the infamous PAL speedup issue. Movies and games that are converted to PAL run somewhat faster because of the 25fps conversion - which actually messes up movies when converted to video.

[Sweater Fish Deluxe]

Well, the same arguments could be made against NTSC, too, I suppose.

Having seen NTSC and PAL images running side-by-side, I can say that PAL really does look a bit better as far as color separation and vividness go, but like I said, the 25fps (50 interlaced) refresh is harsh on my NTSC eyes. I suppose you'd get used to that after a while. Or you'd get one of those PAL-100 TVs, which should solve the flicker, too.

By the way, I always thought PAL and SECAM were the same thing, too, but I just looked it up on Wikipedia and they're actually different. And I thought I was so smart...


...word is bondage...

[njiska]

Movies and games that are converted to PAL run somewhat faster because of the 25fps conversion - which actually messes up movies when converted to video.

Yeah the pitchshift in PAL can be a bitch, but on the plus it is far less difficult then a 3:2 Pulldown. Here's a wiki on how it's done.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/3:2_pulldown

[LocalH]

COMPOSITE (luminance+chrominance) = Okay, but the color is blurred. Turn the Sharpness setting all the way up & it might help.
No, no, no, no, no, did I mention no? If you turn the sharpness all the way up, you're adding noise. You should always turn the sharpness all the way down, even with composite - this may cause the image to look "blurred" but it also hides noise and crosstalk between luma and chroma. At the very most, if the image is too soft at the lowest sharpness setting, then bring it up slightly.

[kedawa]

I hate all television video standards.
NTSC (aka Never The Same Color) is a lot less shitty than Pal50, Pal60, or SECAM, but it's still garbage compared to VGA, SVGA, XGA, etc.

EDIT: I did a little research, and PAL60 is actually much better than NTSC, although still doesn't come anywhere close to VGA.

As far as refresh rates go, I think 60 is sufficient for most things these days, although higher is always better, and the beauty of PC video formats is that they support multiple refresh rates at each resolution.

It would be nice if it actually matched that of films, since 24 doesn't go into 60 all that neatly, and a refresh rate of say 72Hz or 96Hz would work out well, but the real problem with watching films on a 60Hz tv is that NTSC DVDs are encoded at 60Hz using that retarded 3:2 pulldown interlaced nonsense, instead of just letting the player interpolate the frames in real time. It's just one example of how utterly stupid the DVD format is, and it only serves to waste space and complicate upscanning.


I thought HDMI was Component? Guess not. Why is it superior to component?

And please don't say "because it's digital". A high-quality analog signal can run circles around a digital signal. (Points to his 170meg Stargate SG1 download that is digital, but looks worse than a VHS analog tape.)

HDMI is just DVI plus audio in an overpriced connector.
It's better because the signal contains far more data, and because the signal is digital, that data is immune to signal degradation.

The fact that your SG1 movie looks like ass has nothing to do with the video signal, and everything to do with compression.

[kevin_psx]

SG1 was just an example of how digital can be inferior to an analog standard. Ultimately it's about the quality of the signal, not whether it's analog or digital.

>>>"Digital means that data is immune to signal degradation."<<< Really? I stretch out a DVI/HDMI cable across 1 mile & there will be NO signal degradation? (shakes head) The noise would be so great you'd just have garbage out.

Digital means 1s and 0s but it's still built upon an analog waveform that can degrade. I've heard many audio/videophiles say Analog Component Cable is superior to the DVI/HDMI standards because the digital format has serious flaws like numerous bit errors. (Don't know if that's true. Just what I heard.)

COMPOSITE (luminance+chrominance) = Okay, but the color is blurred. Turn the Sharpness setting all the way up [exageration] & it might help.No, no, no, no, no, did I mention no? If you turn the sharpness all the way up, you're adding noise. Disagree. Strongly.

The sharpness setting controls the COMB filter which separates the RF/Composite into the original luminance & chrominance signals.

The higher you set the sharpness, the more "aggressive" the COMB filter works to separate the RF/Composite into 2 separate signals. Yes there's some dot crawl but that's a side-effect of the filter-- not necessarily bad. One should adjust the COMB/Sharpness setting 'til it looks best to their eyes.



I agree sharpness should be turned off (0) when using S-video or Component since the signals are already separated & no Combing is necessary.

[kevin_psx]

the real problem with watching films on a 60Hz tv is that NTSC DVDs are encoded at 60Hz using that retarded 3:2 pulldown interlaced nonsense, instead of just letting the player interpolate the frames in real time. It's just one example of how utterly stupid the DVD format is, and it only serves to waste space and complicate upscanning.

HDTV has a 24 frame progressive standard for movies.

DVDs only store one field (half-frame). They don't store 2 or 3 identical fields--- no space wasted.

Advanced DVDs can digitally merge the half-frames into a single frame. Just as good as progressive storage. Like so:

http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volume_7_4/images/dvd-benchmark-part-5-main-2.jpg
http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volume_7_4/images/dvd-benchmark-part-5-tfe-progressive.gif

[Anthony1]

There is a really easy way to answer this question when it comes to video games.




All non progressive scan games will look best in analog RGB.


All progresive scan games will look best in wideband component or VGA or whatever.



PERIOD.





The first system to feature progressive scan games was the Dreamcast. I think about 90 percent of the library works in Progressive scan. Thus, if you have a Dreamcast, then the VGA adapter is a must.

The next system to feature progressive scan is the Playstation 2. Unfortunately, a very small number of PS2 games are actually progressive scan, so it's still recommended that you play PS2 games in analog RGB if possible.


The Xbox's library is about 98 percent progressive scan. Thus, use the High Def adapter thing.


The GameCube has a large number of games that aren't progressive scan. It also has some huge games that are progressive scan, so there is no easy solution for the Cube. Also, making a analog RGB cable for the Cube is extremely expensive, since you have to destroy the special Nintendo component cable in the process. Thus, if you have major $$$ and are a huge Cube fan, and like alot of the non-progressive scan games, then pay the piper and get the special RGB cable, but you also need to get Nintendo's component cable for all the progressive scan ones.




ALL SYSTEMS PRIOR TO THE DREAMCAST SHOULD BE PLAYED IN ANALOG RGB WHEN AND IF POSSIBLE. THIS INCLUDES THE 3DO and NES, ALTHOUGH THE RGB MODS FOR THOSE SYSTEMS ARE EXPENSIVE AS FUCK.

IF YOU ARE NEW TO ANALOG RGB, THEN DIP YOUR TOES IN THE WATER WITH A COMMODORE 1084 MONITOR. IF YOU WANT A BIGGER SCREEN, THEN GET A LARGER SONY PVM MONITOR THAT HAS THE SPECIAL 25 PIN PLUG ON THE BACK.





class dismissed.




-----------------

[googlefest1]

how do you connect the systems to the 1084 monitor - scart cable ?

[Anthony1]

how do you connect the systems to the 1084 monitor - scart cable ?


No, you get D-Lite or somebody at the link below to make you a custom cable for whichever monitor you are using.

http://nfggames.com/forum/index.php?s=100b885c51f6fc5e05f2688537531870&act=idx

[Sweater Fish Deluxe]

ALL SYSTEMS PRIOR TO THE DREAMCAST SHOULD BE PLAYED IN ANALOG RGB WHEN AND IF POSSIBLE. THIS INCLUDES THE 3DO and NES, ALTHOUGH THE RGB MODS FOR THOSE SYSTEMS ARE EXPENSIVE AS FUCK.
If you ask me, that would be a huge waste of money. Sure they'll look better, but come on, they're just games, no need to go overboard with the videophile stuff. Personally, I haven't even felt the need to mod my N64 and that's a much eaiser mod than the NES.


IF YOU ARE NEW TO ANALOG RGB, THEN DIP YOUR TOES IN THE WATER WITH A COMMODORE 1084 MONITOR. IF YOU WANT A BIGGER SCREEN, THEN GET A LARGER SONY PVM MONITOR THAT HAS THE SPECIAL 25 PIN PLUG ON THE BACK.
I'm sitting here using the wi-fi in my college library and looking at their stable of TVs on carts that they can take around to classes for showing videos or whatever and I noticed a couple weeks ago that two of the TVs are actually nice large (like 28") RGB monitors. One older one from Quazar that has RGB input via RCA cables and a really really nice looking one sold by PictureTel, but actually manufactured by Sony (model PGM-2950S), with BNC connectors and it can apparently even sync up to 31KHz (VGA). Man, would I like to have one of these. Both of them also have composite and s-video, of course, so they'd be ideal for everything short of HD. I bet the Sony/PictureTel one is really high quality, too. Not so sure about the Quazar one, but I'd take it if they were offering.


how do you connect the systems to the 1084 monitor - scart cable ?
The RGB connection on 1084 monitors varies depending on when it was made or who manufactured it for Commodore. Some have a DIN type connector and some have a DB9. I always made my own cables. I had to cannibalize the video passthrough cable from a 32X to make my first one since that was the only cable that I knew had all the right signals. And I connected my Jaguar in such a ghetto fashion that I won't even try to describe the method. Later the magic of the Internet made it possible for me to just order SCART cables from Europe and splice on a DB9 end. Easy as pie.


...word is bondage...

[smokehouse]

This is a hard question to answer as it really depends on the TV. My 32” Proscan does quite well with composite and bleeds a bit of red on S-video (go figure). My much newer Sony KV32FS320 looks amazing with a good S-Video connection and even better running 480i through the component inputs (PS2/Xbox/GC). It's obvious it had a better comb filter than the older Proscan (the Proscan was great for it's time).

My Hitachi 51SWX20B is my only HD display. It looks terrible with composite and simply ok with S-Video but bump to HD from the Xbox or 480p from the PS2 and you’re talking money.

I have never tried pure RGB although my consolized MVS has a RGB out. I really don’t know where to pick up a used monitor and don’t want to buy one off the internet.

[max 330 mega]

IF YOU ARE NEW TO ANALOG RGB, THEN DIP YOUR TOES IN THE WATER WITH A COMMODORE 1084 MONITOR. IF YOU WANT A BIGGER SCREEN, THEN GET A LARGER SONY PVM MONITOR THAT HAS THE SPECIAL 25 PIN PLUG ON THE BACK.

can you link to some good choices for sony monitors? ive been really considering getting a nice RGB monitor to play my neo geo on, but even with the research ive done i feel like a complete idiot because theres so much of it that confuses me. i dont have any clue what a DIN or a DB9 is, and i also cant quite figure out how newer systems would be connected to the monitor. i know that neo geos have the port right on the back of the console, but what do you do for something like a gamecube? is it just as simple?

also whats the deal with the Xrgb2??? are they as good as RGB? and how do you connect your systems to the Xrgb2??
thanks in advance to anyone who responds, i hope these questions are easy to answer.

[kedawa]

>>>"Digital means that data is immune to signal degradation."<<< Really? I stretch out a DVI/HDMI cable across 1 mile & there will be NO signal degradation? (shakes head) The noise would be so great you'd just have garbage out.
You're overlooking the distinction between signal degradation and signal loss.
The fact that digital is discreet, i.e. either a 1 or a 0 and nothing in between, means that the signal is identical at either end.
The data either gets there or it doesn't.
Of course the intermediate signal is an analog waveform, but slight changes don't have the same affect on digital signals as they do on analog ones, especially with differential signalling.
DVI has a certain amount of error correction as well, although I don't know the specifics.
As far as using a one mile cable, well, that's why the DVI standard, like all digital signal standards, defines a maximum cable length.
Where analog signals get progressively worse over distance, digital ones work perfectly up to a certain threshold, and after that they don't work at all.

A properly set up digital system will have absolutely no signal loss whatsoever, and the image displayed onscreen will be exactly as it is meant to be, whereas a properly set up analog system will always have some amount of interference or signal degradation. Add to that the need for geometry adjustment on analog displays, and it's clear that digital is the better option.

[kedawa]

HDTV has a 24 frame progressive standard for movies.

DVDs only store one field (half-frame). They don't store 2 or 3 identical fields--- no space wasted.

Advanced DVDs can digitally merge the half-frames into a single frame. Just as good as progressive storage. Like so:
You're right about that. I forgot thet they used flags to produce the redundant frames instead of actually storing them. My bad.

[smokehouse]

>>>"Digital means that data is immune to signal degradation."<<< Really? I stretch out a DVI/HDMI cable across 1 mile & there will be NO signal degradation? (shakes head) The noise would be so great you'd just have garbage out.
You're overlooking the distinction between signal degradation and signal loss.
The fact that digital is discreet, i.e. either a 1 or a 0 and nothing in between, means that the signal is identical at either end.
The data either gets there or it doesn't.
Of course the intermediate signal is an analog waveform, but slight changes don't have the same affect on digital signals as they do on analog ones, especially with differential signalling.
DVI has a certain amount of error correction as well, although I don't know the specifics.
As far as using a one mile cable, well, that's why the DVI standard, like all digital signal standards, defines a maximum cable length.
Where analog signals get progressively worse over distance, digital ones work perfectly up to a certain threshold, and after that they don't work at all.

A properly set up digital system will have absolutely no signal loss whatsoever, and the image displayed onscreen will be exactly as it is meant to be, whereas a properly set up analog system will always have some amount of interference or signal degradation. Add to that the need for geometry adjustment on analog displays, and it's clear that digital is the better option.

I can’t say I completely agree with you on this one. I do data and A/V cabling for a living (amongst other things) and can say that a digital data stream (especially higher MHz transmissions) can be altered by not only the quality of the transmission media, but also environmental problems as well. Running a HDMI cable over a fluorescent light ballast or too close to something drawing large amounts of power can effect the signal greatly. It’s not immune to things like distance and RFI, digital or no. Things like Return Loss, attenuation and crosstalk can become a problem.

[kedawa]

Well, I can't argue with you there.
My only exposure to digital video is on the PC side, and I've never had any sort of noise or interference.
It's entirely possible for some form of interference to cause intermittent signal loss, causing chunks of data to be corrupted and thus thrown out by the display.
Also, just to clarify, when I talk about signals, I'm talking about the actual bitstream, and not just the EM transmission, which is susceptible to all those things you mentioned.
If my terminology is wrong and is causing confusion, then I apologize.

[Anthony1]

can you link to some good choices for sony monitors? ive been really considering getting a nice RGB monitor to play my neo geo on, but even with the research ive done i feel like a complete idiot because theres so much of it that confuses me. i dont have any clue what a DIN or a DB9 is, and i also cant quite figure out how newer systems would be connected to the monitor. i know that neo geos have the port right on the back of the console, but what do you do for something like a gamecube? is it just as simple?

also whats the deal with the Xrgb2??? are they as good as RGB? and how do you connect your systems to the Xrgb2??
thanks in advance to anyone who responds, i hope these questions are easy to answer.


1. The Sony monitor that you want to get is a Sony PVM. You simply want to make absolutely sure that it has the 25 pin connector on the back of it. (some PVM's don't). The 25 pin connector is labeled "CMPTR sync on green". So when you head to Ebay, if you can't see a clear pic of the back of the monitor, and see if it has the 25 pin plug somehwere on it, then ask the seller and make sure it has that 25 pin plug. The most popular one for gamers is the Sony PVM-2530. It's 25 inches of pure beast. Incredible RGB picture, incredible S-Video picture and incredible composite picture. (needs a BNC adapter to use composite, but those are like 4 bucks at Radio Shack, no big deal)


Here is an example of a Sony PVM, go to ebay and enter 7606322879 . That is the number of an auction with a Sony PVM in it. It's going for $99, which is awesome, but the shipping is likely $100 because the damn things weigh like 150 pounds! But if you look close at the one picture where it shows the back of the monitor, then you will see a 25 pin plug on the lower left side of the back. That is the magic plug. Just make sure whatever Sony PVM you get has that plug.


2. As far as the connector is concerned, you basically have to find somebody to make you a few cables for the systems that you are most interested in. There are a number of people on these forums that could probably do it, or you could head over to http://nfggames.com/forum/ There is definitely somebody there that can hook you up. You could also just have somebody make you an adapter for a Japanese Scart cable to the 25 pin PVM plug, and then just buy Japanese RGB scart cables for various systems. It really depends on which systems you are most interested in.


3. XRGB2 - The XRGB2 isn't the same thing as true 100 percent RGB. I have one, so I can say with experience that it's just short of true RGB. What it does, is it takes the true RGB signal and line doubles it, and coverts it to 640 x 480 progressive. But in doing so, the original information is manipulated to get this new signal, and any time you mess with something, you alter it, and usually you end up degrading it slightly, and that's the case with the XRGB2. But, having said all of that, they are great to use with HDTV's that have VGA inputs or CRT VGA monitors, (For some reason doesn't look very good on LCD monitors). Still, it isn't as good as pure, unaltered, analog RGB. But people really like them cause it seems easier for them then getting a RGB monitor and getting a guy to make a cable. But trust me, true RGB is the way to go. XRGB2's are great for a way to have a second RGB type situation going on in your house, but you really need to have a true, real, RGB monitor.

[smokehouse]

Well, I can't argue with you there.
My only exposure to digital video is on the PC side, and I've never had any sort of noise or interference.
It's entirely possible for some form of interference to cause intermittent signal loss, causing chunks of data to be corrupted and thus thrown out by the display.
Also, just to clarify, when I talk about signals, I'm talking about the actual bitstream, and not just the EM transmission, which is susceptible to all those things you mentioned.
If my terminology is wrong and is causing confusion, then I apologize.


Hey, don’t mind me, I’m just babbling. VGA is a tried and true transmission media. With a separate, often shielded cable for R, G, B, V and H Sync as well as a ground and overall shielding it can be run for quite some distance with little to no trouble. Home technologies such as HDMI or DVI are a bit more sensitive. I’ve ran component longer over a good quad shield RG6 coax and had little problem but have found that with HDMI or DVI, an inline booster is sometimes required. Again, these are often “longer” runs in home theaters being taken to an overhead projector from a source many feet away.

[NinjaJoey23]

What is the difference between component and RGB? I thought they were the same...

I only have composite for my systems. I love it compared to the RF I had been using on my SNES and N64 (I even had the special RF adaptor). I use composite on all except the NES toploader, for obvious reasons.

My TV only has composite and RF. Any cheap monitors/TVs that have superior connections?

[smokehouse]

Unless I’m wrong, component separates the signal into 3 things, the luminance (Y) on one cable, and the “color difference” difference signals for blue (B-Y, Pb or Cb) and red (R-Y, Pr or Cr). After than, only the green is left over and ….it’s displayed as green. VGA is completely different, it as separate pins for R, G, B, ground for each and V and H sync. In short, VGA is better than component.

When it comes to how video signals work Imagine this.

Imagine you have 5 bins. filled with:
red marbles
blue marbles
Green marbles
White marbles (luminance)
Black marbles (V-sync)
Grey marbles (H-sync)

VGA would keep these marbles completely separate.

Component would mix the black, grey and white together while taking half the green and dumping them into the blue and red bins.

S-Video would take and mix the black, grey and white into one bin and the Red, green and blue into another.

Composite would take all and mix them into one big bin.

Now it’s up to your TV or monitor to sort these out into individual piles again. No TV is perfect and some of the signal will be slightly mixed. This is why composite looks like garbage most of the time. The more separate the signals are coming in, the better the picture will look.

[GarrettCRW]

PAL/SECAM
Retarded. Simply, utterly retarded.

If it wasn't a completely stalker-like thing to do, I'd ask you to marry me right now. ;)