Did you now Commodore 64 has S-video?

[kevin_psx]

Wow. I never knew. Does explain why the C64 Monitor looked so much clearer than my old TV connection.

Before the mini-DIN plug became standard, S-Video signals were often carried through different types of plugs. For example, the Commodore 64 home computer of the 1980s, one of the first widely available devices to feature S-Video output, used an 8-pin standard size DIN plug on the computer end and a pair of RCA plugs on the monitor end.

[googlefest1]

too bad - the connection is made with rca plugs

[vulcanjedi]

Hey

The Atari 800XL is also the same. So grab yourself a Commodore 1702 monitor the next time you see one :)

VJ

[googlefest1]

does the atari 800 use the same cable?

[SNKFan75]

I have a Commodore 64 just sitting in the box that I will have to try this on. I have seen S-Video cables on Ebay for the C64 and now will have to buy one.

Is the picture that much better with S-Video as compared to the computer monitor?

SNKFan75

[Sweater Fish Deluxe]

Interestingly enough, the C64 actually didn't have separate Y (luminance) and C (color) outputs. It had the luma, but used the composite video signal for chroma. The C128 and also the C64c had a separate chroma for true s-video. I know I've tested before whether using composite video on a Y/C connection leads to a slightly worse picture than pure chroma, but saddly I can't remember what my test showed.

In addition to the 1702 monitors vulcanjedi mentioned, there's also the famous 1084s, which also have RGB inputs as well as composite and Y/C and stereo audio. I still have mine (actually a clone made by Magnavox) and I plan to keep it even though it's terribly small. I just love it. It's a very good monitor on top of the various inputs, great clear colorful picture.

You can get a cable at Radio Shack (or probably on eBay) that adapts an s-video plug to two RCA plugs for either using normal s-video inputs on a Commodore monitor or else using a C64/128 on a normal s-video screen. The one I have is intended for use with certain old camcorders that I guess had RCA plugs instead of an s-video plug.


...word is bondage...

[Mayhem]

Is the picture that much better with S-Video as compared to the computer monitor?

Same quality, but seeing as I only have a TV and no monitor, then outputing S-video to it does me fine :)

(after god knows how many years of RF hell, it was great to finally get a good picture on my C64!)

[Anthony1]

In your sig it says that component looks just as good as RGB. Not true. I can prove it for you if you like. Come over to my house and I will show you San Andreas on a TV in component, and I'll also show you it on a RGB monitor. The difference is striking!

[LucidDefender]

In your sig it says that component looks just as good as RGB. Not true. I can prove it for you if you like. Come over to my house and I will show you San Andreas on a TV in component, and I'll also show you it on a RGB monitor. The difference is striking!

Not a valid comparison as you'd be displaying on two different monitors. How about RGB vs progressive scan component video?

[Sweater Fish Deluxe]

Not a valid comparison as you'd be displaying on two different monitors. How about RGB vs progressive scan component video?
Definitely not a valid comparison. More like progressive scan component vs VGA.

Anyway, trying to figure out whether RGB or component is better is pretty pointless, in my opinion (should be obvious since as you said the comparison is bound to be invalid since what monitor you're displaying the image on makes more of a difference). Use whichever, they're both great, we should all just be glad we don't need to use RF anymore.


...word is bondage...

[Anthony1]

Not a valid comparison as you'd be displaying on two different monitors. How about RGB vs progressive scan component video?
Definitely not a valid comparison. More like progressive scan component vs VGA.

Anyway, trying to figure out whether RGB or component is better is pretty pointless, in my opinion (should be obvious since as you said the comparison is bound to be invalid since what monitor you're displaying the image on makes more of a difference). Use whichever, they're both great, we should all just be glad we don't need to use RF anymore.


...word is bondage...



Technically, RGB really shouldn't be better than component, should it? I mean, it's component just a newer version of RGB? Or does RGB contain additional information in picture or something? I'm not a technical guy, and I can't really explain why RGB is better than component, but I can tell you that it is. I've seen it with my own eyes. I've played Killzone and San Andreas extensively in both component and RGB, and RGB was significantly better.


Now, again, maybe this shouldn't be the case, and their shouldn't be any discernable difference between RGB and Component, but from all my observations there is definitely an improvement with RGB.

[Anthony1]

does the atari 800 use the same cable?



I have an Atari 800XL, and I actually got that special cable to use with my Commodore 1084S monitor. Unfortunately, I haven't been able to locate a 800XL power supply, so I still haven't seen it in action. But from what I understand, it is basically S-Video for the 800XL. I've gotta find one of those damn power bricks!!!

[kedawa]

I was wondering about this myself.
I have a C1802 monitor and I want to change the pins in my N64/GC AV cable so that instead of having Composite, left audio, and right audio, it would have left audio(mono), chroma, and luma.
I wasn't sure if it would work, but now I'd like to take a crack at it.
I'm just not too sure how easy it will be to move the pins in the connector around.

As far as RGB vs component goes, there are a few considerations that have to be made.
Firstly, you would have to compare them on the same display and at the same resolution.
It's also worth noting that there are different types of analog RGB connections, some have H/V sync, some have composite sync, and some have sync on green. There doesn't seem to be much difference in terms of performance between the different types at lower resolutions, but it's worth pointing out since it affects the number of wires needed.
Lastly, you have to consider how human vision works, and how component addresses this. Component doesn't break the signal up into red, green, and blue data, it breaks it up into one channel that determines luminance, and two the determine color. Now, you could argue that having three color channels is better than two, but the reality of human vision is that we are more sensitive to the brightness of something than we are to its color, at least as far as fine detail goes.(This is why color data on DVDs is encoded at a quarter the resolution of luminance data) Component has a channel devoted solely to brightness, while RGB achieves it through the interaction of the three color channels.
The thinking behind component is that it gives more accurate luminance than RGB and slightly less accurate color, but ends up looking better because we don't perceive colors accurately enough to notice.

[Sweater Fish Deluxe]

Technically, RGB really shouldn't be better than component, should it? I mean, it's component just a newer version of RGB? Or does RGB contain additional information in picture or something? I'm not a technical guy, and I can't really explain why RGB is better than component, but I can tell you that it is. I've seen it with my own eyes. I've played Killzone and San Andreas extensively in both component and RGB, and RGB was significantly better.

Now, again, maybe this shouldn't be the case, and their shouldn't be any discernable difference between RGB and Component, but from all my observations there is definitely an improvement with RGB.
The reason any one video format looks superior to any other is generally because it requires less encoding and subsequent decoding between its creation and eventual display. All video game systems that I know of produce their video in RGB and all monitors that I know of display their video in RGB (there may be video game system or display types that I don't know of, I'm no expert on this stuff). So simply carrying that RGB+sync signal from the video game system to the monitor is definitely the most "pure" assuming the signals are suffiently shielded against interference.

Now, component video is made up of three signals: a Y or luminance signal identical to the one used in s-video and two "color difference" signals that are really complicated amalgams of the RGB color signals designed in such a way that they require less bandwidth than simple RGB signals. As you can see, component video is actually more like an advanced version of s-video than it is like RGB (I think it's the fact that consumer component video cables have ends colored red, green and blue that make people think they're similar).

So, in fact, RGB should technically be superior to component, but do to the psycho-optical theory stuff involved in component video that kedawa mentioned and just the general quality of both component and RGB signals, I don't think the improvement is large enough to really be noticed. It would absolutely be less noticeable than the change in quality between any of the other commonly used formats like RF to composite or composite to s-video or s-video to either component or RGB.

This is for video game systems. DVDs actually store their video in component form, so things would be reversed on DVD players with RGB actually being the format that requires a bit of conversion and component being the most "pure," though actually, I guess the component needs to be converted to RGB in order to be displayed either way, so it's just a matter of which decoder is better, the one in your TV or the one in your RGB-enabled DVD player. Which is the real crux of this whole question. A superbly decoded s-video or possibly even composite signal could easily look better than even RGB on a shitty screen.


...word is bondage...

[Kid Ice]

This is news to me. I always thought the S-video standard was developed for use with Super VHS players (which came out in the 90s). I could be wrong on one or both of these points.

[kedawa]

S-VHS decks were the first devices to make use of s-video, so you may be right.
For years, the only other device that could make use of s-video was the SFC/SNES.

[SNKFan75]

So, with this newly aquired information, I can go on Ebay and buy one of those C64 S-Video cables and connect my C64 to my WEGA? Is there a special S-Video cable I will need in order to make this work? The back of my C64 has a mini DIN plug.

Any help would be awesome as I really want to see this is S-Video!

SNKFan75

[LocalH]

If your C64 has a 5-pin video port, then it will only generate composite. If your C64 has an 8-pin video port, then it will output Y/C. All C64C and C128(D) machines have the 8-pin port.

I myself have one of the S-Video cables and the image is absolutely awesome. There's only the slight amount of color bleeding that you get with any Y/C source, and it's definitely the closest to RGB that you'll ever get from a C64.

[mario2butts]

In your sig it says that component looks just as good as RGB. Not true. I can prove it for you if you like. Come over to my house and I will show you San Andreas on a TV in component, and I'll also show you it on a RGB monitor. The difference is striking!

Interesting. What are the brands/ models of the screens you're using? I'd like to see this; would you be able to post screenshots? It's not that I don't believe you, I'm just curious. :)

I've never seen any games played in RGB, but I have a small-ish SDTV with component and 480i-only (Non-HD) PS2 Xbox and GC games look fantastic, a noticable step up (to my eyes) from S-video on the same set. I'm hesitant to get a RGB monitor since (to my knowledge, please correct me on this if I'm wrong) it would be pretty hard to find one that a) is new and not on ebay with high shipping charges b) has 16:9 compression, which I think is important and c) has component inputs for Gamecube, since NTSC GCs lack RGB through the analog out. I was thinking about getting a RGB-SCART to Component converter to graduate my older consoles up from S-Video but if RGB really is as much of an improvement over 480i component as you say it is I just might have to reconsider... LOL

[Anthony1]

The thinking behind component is that it gives more accurate luminance than RGB and slightly less accurate color, but ends up looking better because we don't perceive colors accurately enough to notice.


Well, you might not perceive colors accurately enough, but I sure as hell do. And again, I could give you a 1 minute demonstration of San Andreas in component and San Andreas in RGB, and you would know immediately that your statement is incorrect. For old video game machines, and even modern ones like the PS2, true color seperation is better. You can't get a pure signal of red, green and blue with two cords. You get their best estimate. Not good enough. You can have all the luminance that you want, all I know is that my Commodore 1084 and Sony PVM's are bright as can be, and I see so many colors my eyes start to water. I played San Andreas and Killzone in RGB. I played them both in component, and RGB wins, no contest.




A superbly decoded s-video or possibly even composite signal could easily look better than even RGB on a shitty screen


Ummm, no.

[Anthony1]

In your sig it says that component looks just as good as RGB. Not true. I can prove it for you if you like. Come over to my house and I will show you San Andreas on a TV in component, and I'll also show you it on a RGB monitor. The difference is striking!

I've never seen any games played in RGB, but I have a small-ish SDTV with component and 480i-only (Non-HD) PS2 Xbox and GC games look fantastic, a noticable step up (to my eyes) from S-video on the same set. I'm hesitant to get a RGB monitor since (to my knowledge, please correct me on this if I'm wrong) it would be pretty hard to find one that a) is new and not on ebay with high shipping charges b) has 16:9 compression, which I think is important and c) has component inputs for Gamecube, since NTSC GCs lack RGB through the analog out. I was thinking about getting a RGB-SCART to Component converter to graduate my older consoles up from S-Video but if RGB really is as much of an improvement over 480i component as you say it is I just might have to reconsider... LOL


In your situation, I'm not sure it would be worth it just for one system (PS2). The PS2 does have a handfull of progressive scan games too, so that has to be taken into consideration. A montior that does both progressive scan and analog RGB at 15kHz is way too expensive to mainly use with just the PS2. Now, if you had a whole stable of consoles like SNES, Genesis, Jaguar, Sega CD, etc, etc, then I would say it's absolutely worth it. I don't think I would do it for just one system.

[john_soper]

You can get a cable at Radio Shack (or probably on eBay) that adapts an s-video plug to two RCA plugs for either using normal s-video inputs on a Commodore monitor or else using a C64/128 on a normal s-video screen.
I never knew that, just made my own but it was kinda ugly. One day I got mad and soldered a mini-din4 connector to the back of my 1702 so it now supports standard s-video cables.

[Sweater Fish Deluxe]

This is news to me. I always thought the S-video standard was developed for use with Super VHS players (which came out in the 90s). I could be wrong on one or both of these points.
What was introduced with SVHS decks was the specific plug type that we associate with s-video. The Y/C signals--carried usually through RCA cables, I think, or maybe BNC connectors for professional stuff--had been used for years before the introduction of SVHS.


If your C64 has a 5-pin video port, then it will only generate composite. If your C64 has an 8-pin video port, then it will output Y/C. All C64C and C128(D) machines have the 8-pin port.
Actually, I think the the 5-pin C64s could do something like s-video, but as I said they didn't put out a true chroma signal, so you'd have to use the composite signal. According to the Hardware Book pinout for the C64, though, there is a luma signal. I never had an original C64 to test this on, but like I said I have tried on my C128 using composite as the chroma signal along with a real luma and that works fine to make a Y/C image. I have a 5-pin DIN cable that has four RCA plugs on the other end which I assume must be a Y/C cable for 5-pin C64s (the fourth RCA plug would be for audio-in, then, and I have no idea what that was for or if it was ever used).


...word is bondage...

[mario2butts]

In your situation, I'm not sure it would be worth it just for one system (PS2). The PS2 does have a handfull of progressive scan games too, so that has to be taken into consideration. A montior that does both progressive scan and analog RGB at 15kHz is way too expensive to mainly use with just the PS2. Now, if you had a whole stable of consoles like SNES, Genesis, Jaguar, Sega CD, etc, etc, then I would say it's absolutely worth it. I don't think I would do it for just one system.

Anthony1,

I think you misunderstood me or only skimmed over my post (could you re-read it?) I was asking if the difference between RGB and component is great enough to warrant going with an RGB monitor rather than getting a SCART to component converter to use with ALL my rgb capable 480i consoles (Genesis, SMS, SNES, Saturn, PS1, TurboDuo if I ever get around to modding it, etc etc), taking into consideration the disadvantages of an RGB monitor (used/ebay, no 16:9 compression, no RGB from GC, etc). For games that are 480p and up I'm already using (and plan on getting a better) hdtv. I'm guessing your answer is yes, but I'd still like to know what model of TV/ monitor your using to make this comparison, and see screenshots if possible. I mean, I'd love to come over to your house but Northern CA is a little far away for me :)

Another quick Q: any good RGB monitors out there that you know of with a flat tube? I'm not a fan of curved screens. If there were a RGB monitor out there with a flat tube, 16:9 compression, and a component input for 480i GC games, and please tell me if there is one, I'd be all over it.

Thanks. I appreciate your insight! Sorry to everyone if I'm taking this thread off topic.

[Anthony1]

Another quick Q: any good RGB monitors out there that you know of with a flat tube? I'm not a fan of curved screens. If there were a RGB monitor out there with a flat tube, 16:9 compression, and a component input for 480i GC games, and please tell me if there is one, I'd be all over it.

Thanks. I appreciate your insight! Sorry to everyone if I'm taking this thread off topic.



The best way for me to break it down is this. Old school games are designed with 4:3 in mind, and will look superior on a 4:3 monitor. The best 4:3 monitors that you can get, when it comes to use with video game systems from 1988 till present day (PS2) are ones that can display analog 15kHz.


Now, what you are thinking about, is if you can find a display that will do every little thing that you want it to, and I'm going to tell you that most likely it ain't gonna happen. I know that there are Sony PVM's that do the 16:9 compression, but they are newer Sony PVM's, and I'm not sure if some of those models also do the 15kHz. It's possible that there are some that do that, but I would imagine they would be extremely expensive. Another monitor line to check out are the Mitsubishi Megaviews. I'm not sure if all of the various Megaviews do 15kHz but I know that some of them do.



Anyways, what I'm mainly trying to get at, is that if you are really going to get into RGB gaming, then you have to understand that you need to have a RGB monitor in "ADDITION" to whatever your other gaming setup is going to be. If you have a widesreen HDTV, and you hook your GameCube up to that, and you hook your PS2 up to that when playing a game like Jak and Daxter 3 in 480p widescreen, then I totally understand that. But if you want to play San Andreas or Killzone or any of the other non-progressive scan PS2 games, then move the PS2 to the other room that has the RGB monitor. That's why a small RGB monitor isn't so bad. You can usually find a nice spot in your room of doom somewhere for it. I have a Commodore 1084S in my little room of doom/computer room/home office, but in my master bedroom I have a Sony PVM. My wife just thinks it's a really good 27 inch TV in terms of color, she doesn't know too much about the fact that it's one of the best RGB monitors in the world. But when everybody is gone from the house, I can go into that room and hook my TurboDuo up to it, and enjoy some incredible RGB gaming. But when it's time to play Ratchet and Clank 3 (a 480p game), then I'm going to play that in my living room on the big HDTV.


It's very hard to find a monitor that will do absolutely everything you want it to. But, if you still are seeking the dream of all dreams, then check out the gamesx forums. For example, here is a thread were some dude has a really killer NEC Multisync (don't know exactly which model #), and he has a picture of it in the thread. That looks like a really good RGB monitor. Of course the Mitsubishi Megaviews and the Sony PVM's and more expensive Sony GVM's could be just as pimp.

http://nfggames.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=1283&st=0&

[mario2butts]

Now, what you are thinking about, is if you can find a display that will do every little thing that you want it to, and I'm going to tell you that most likely it ain't gonna happen. I know that there are Sony PVM's that do the 16:9 compression...

Thanks Anthony1. I wasn't expecting an RGB monitor to be optimal for HD capable games or anything like that, but I still think 16:9 compression is important. Sure most older games were made for 4:3, but many of the 480i 16:9 capable games out there are a blast to play in that mode... 32X Virtua Fighter, Saturn NiGHTS, pretty much any N64 Rare title, many, many AAA PS2 titles, etc etc... I wouldn't want to be missing out! And yeah, it looks like all the RGB monitors with 16:9 mode are waaay too expensive. So at this point I'm still on the fence between your suggestion and get a Sony PVM-2530 or just going for a nice new Trinitron w/ component and using a RGB-SCART to component converter.

Thanks again for your insights Anthony. I agree 100% with your sig, video games ARE art and should be viewed in the best way possible, so keep on preachin'!

[kedawa]

I've done direct comparisons of RGB to YPbPr on a monitor that supports both, and I honestly didn't notice a difference.

It's a shame that consoles don't have monitor calibration screens to do a more indepth comparison, because I also intuitively expect RGB to be superior, seeing as how the signal going to the actual electron gun is RGB anyway.

BTW, you don't really need a 16:9 mode with most monitors, since you can just adjust the vertical geometry to 16:9 manually.
Whenever I play widescreen games on my VGA monitor, that's all I do.
I'm not sure if a 1084s has that much range in its adjustments, though.

[SNKFan75]

One last question I have. I looked at the back of the Commodore this morning and it has 8-PIN DIN. It is however not the Commodore 64C (white model). Will it still take S-Video connection? Sorry if I have asked this already and it has been answered. I just want to make sure before I purchase the cable.

Thanks!

SNKFan75

[vintagegamecrazy]

now I'm curious, when was S Video first used, commercially or domestic?

[Sweater Fish Deluxe]

now I'm curious, when was S Video first used, commercially or domestic?
Well, the use of separate chroma/luma signals goes back at least to the 1970s for professional equipment. maybe even earlier, I don't know.

For the consumer-level, I've seen camcorders form the late-'70s or early-'80s that had chroma/luma outputs (probably for people who wanted to invest in professional editing equipment.

Then, as mentioned earlier, it was Sony S-VHS decks sold in the early '90s that introduced the 4-pin mini-DIN plug commonly used with s-video these days.


...word is bondage...

[idrougge]

does the atari 800 use the same cable?

I have an Atari 800XL, and I actually got that special cable to use with my Commodore 1084S monitor. Unfortunately, I haven't been able to locate a 800XL power supply, so I still haven't seen it in action. But from what I understand, it is basically S-Video for the 800XL. I've gotta find one of those damn power bricks!!!

Unless I'm mistaken, the 800XL only demands ground and 5V, so getting a fitting PSU should be a piece of cake. I was in the middle of making a small adaptor on a C64 PSU for my 130XE when I found a real Atari PSU.

http://www.faqs.org/faqs/atari-8-bit/faq/

[idrougge]

All video game systems that I know of produce their video in RGB

Atari's systems were notorious for not using RGB. Keep in mind that the chipsets of the 2600 and 5200 (goes for the 8-bit computers as well) were designed in the 70s, and had to be made using very crude technology, for display on old TVs. The way that the Ataris can produce so many colours is by directly manipulating the NTSC or PAL luma/chroma signals. It is easier to do in hardware, but the result is that there is no way in hell that you can get RGB out of those systems.
The C64 didn't have RGB either, nor did the NES (unless you transplant a Playchoice PPU into it).
The TMS9918 VDP used in Colecovision, MSX and many others had no way of producing RGB. In fact, I think it is much closer to component video.