PC gameing sections dwindeling?

[Soviet Conscript]

i'm a big gamer, mostly rpg's but a fan of all systems. in a way I consider the PC a major gameing machine but while talking to a friend at work today he brought up the fact that alot of places are majorly downsizeing there PC game sections. I first noticed this a few years back at walmart whom once had a glorious PC game section filling both sides of the isle. now at most walmarts the section has been reduced to a small section, half an isle sometimes. you could take into account that PC games are in smaller boxes now but this still doesn't seem to account for the massive reduction. I've also noticed more recently EB games has cut there PC section down even more dramaticly. I remember the days going into the EB games at the mall and half the store was dominated by PC games now it has been relegated to a small section 1/4 of its former size. is the gap between PC and current consoles causeing this? or some other reason? I still think the PC has a few advantages over consoles (as well as some disadvantages) and I also think the PC has come out with a unique and intresting variaty of games, I feel bad to see the selection shrinking so dramaticly. I would rather not have to drive all the way out to best buy or compusa every time i want a new PC game when i have an eb games right next to my work (i yet havn't figured out if the new store has been a bad or good thing since its so tempting every payday to blow my paycheck there, its so convienent).

[Bratwurst]

I think what occured is the usual demographic behind PC entertainment has migrated towards internet distribution, be it piracy, online ordering or direct from the source like in the form of Valve's Steam system. The internet is now an common extension of PC use, almost a requisite, and it seems natural that PC users would gravitate towards it instead of patronizing retail outlets that would limit their options in pricing, availability and selection per their area.

[Ed Oscuro]

I think what occured is the usual demographic behind PC entertainment has migrated towards internet distribution, be it piracy, online ordering or direct from the source like in the form of Valve's Steam system.
The people I know who've ordered games online tend to only buy a few. I don't know many people who use something like GameSpy's Direct2Drive (more folks simply pirate games). I guess a migration is beginning, but I don't see people flocking in droves to it. Hmm.

[Bratwurst]

The people I know who've ordered games online tend to only buy a few. I don't know many people who use something like GameSpy's Direct2Drive (more folks simply pirate games). I guess a migration is beginning, but I don't see people flocking in droves to it. Hmm.

Ed, Ed, Ed. When will you do the forums a favor and stop opening your mouth?

[Ed Oscuro]

Ed, Ed, Ed. When will you do the forums a favor and stop opening your mouth?
That's not a good defense of your argument (you could have been a reasonable person and found some article in defense of your argument, like this (http://goldsea.com/Asiagate/603/24games.html), but that's not your style). Obviously I'm not speaking for everybody at large, and I'm not denying that there's a change happening - but I haven't seen it take the market by storm.

And actually, now that I think about it, a major reason that the PC section has dwindled more at game specialty stores than at big box retailers (i.e. Best Buy) has absolutely nothing to do with consumer preference, and everything with the fact that game stores make their money off reselling console games (which they can do legally 'cuz they're very easy to completely transfer in a legal sense). It's where they make their money, and a store like GameStop will only feature the must-have PC games to avoid losing customers.

[googlefest1]

I don't see how paying full price for a download version of a game is a greater draw than buying a hard copy with box and manual for the same price(unless it’s the middle of the night and it’s a “must have now” scenario). From all the PC gamers I know, no one is willing to pay full price for a download. Personally I hope this "idea" fails miserably. Sure, id pay for a download version of a game ONLY if the price was SIGNIFICANTLY less.

Ed has the same idea i do as to why the stock is getting smaller at game stores. (I will forever remain to be amazed that people continue to trade in games at horrid trade in value.)

[c0ldb33r]

I don't see how paying full price for a download version of a game is a greater draw than buying a hard copy with box and manual for the same price

They're usually cheaper aren't they? This isn't a statement, it's a question (I never download games).

What gets me is that with some services, the DRM prevents you from ever installing the game on a different computer. I looked at buying a PC game awhile ago (can't remember which). I couldn't find it anywhere so I was willing to get it online. The fine print said that I could only ever install it on that one computer, and that if I re-install the OS, it won't be able to reinstall the game. I was like "wtf?" and, of course, didn't purchase it. X_x

[googlefest1]

when ever i looked they were the same price

i just checked out civ4 and it was the same price

[Ridley30]

I like having the physical boxes of whatever it may be. DVDs in particular. My friend keeps telling me "Dude, don't buy that movie! I can burn it for you right now!" Welp, I want the f'ing box. I can see downloading working great for cheaper, older games ala the Revolution.

[Ed Oscuro]

Well, I went ahead and asked a question of the hard-core PC gamers at GameSpy Forums (note that GameSpy has the Direct2Drive service, which is actually pretty popular) and asked how many of them mainly buy through digital. Some already are, and a number of others caught the second question and mentioned that they're starting to pay digitally.

There's no question that there are still tons of PC games coming out, the question is where they're going. I hate to think that I'd miss out on some games because the developer is betting on digital distribution, but clearly some are banking on that being the future (from the comments noted game developers made last year, it's pretty clear that they aren't happy with the regular distribution model).

It's pretty apparent that digital distribution is an inferior method from the standpoint of the consumer. Some of the reasons are obvious, but this a post (by CodE-E) from said thread gives another good argument why:


b) they make it impossible to patch the game. I know Direct2Drive games can't be patched with normal patches - they require special modified patches released by the D2D people, which can mean getting patches takes a lot longer, or one might not even get them at all if they're lazy.
At some point companies stop patching games, and it's left to third parties to create new content (for example, the original Unreal is set to recieve a new patch sometime in the near future - check oldunreal.com). An encrypted file from a digital download system will not be patchable, and it might not even support user mods.

Another thing to think about: With systems like Direct2Drive, you're only allowed a set number of licenses (which may appear to the user like a set number of activations), even beyond the eventual service shutdown. The setup is potentially confusing, and certainly inconvenient.

[Poofta!]

i stopped buying pc games at B&M stores years ago. i mostly order them online, usually from the same retail outlets, but often from ebay and straight-from-the-source solutions such as valve and the bethesda store.


pc gamers have always been a little ahead of the curve, its only natural we are the first to render B&M retail obsolete. just my opinion of course. but my friends and i buy pc games online almost exclusively (again, this doesnt mean we download instead of getting the box, we just order the games for shipping to our houses, often times its cheaper and less of a headache).

[Ed Oscuro]

i stopped buying pc games at B&M stores years ago. i mostly order them online, usually from the same retail outlets, but often from ebay and straight-from-the-source solutions such as valve and the bethesda store.
Good grief - at least when I asked the question later I made sure to note that internet distribution can be different from digital distribution. Right, I buy my games pretty much only online now.

[Soviet Conscript]

I agree about haveing to have the box and manual but maybe its just me to, i'm a "I want it now" guy i just like going to a store and looking around, seeing what I want and grabbing it. trips to the gameing store are still kinda fun for me browseing and all that.

I use ebay a good deal but never really ordered a PC game or preordered. does the game get there on the day of release usually? i don't think I could bear wanting to play a game and haveing its arrival at the mercy of the mail. easier for me to just go to the store and have it, box, manual and all.

[Jorpho]

I have always been of the opinion that digital distribution will not really take off until all the barriers between you and the game you want are really, really transparent (which probably means lightning-fast download speeds, too) and until pretty boxes lose their ability to suspend the human intellect for just long enough to separate it from its money.

But it suddenly occurs to me that, what with all the kibitzing about Starforce lately, online distribution might end up looking more desirable after all.

[calthaer]

Distribution is only one part of the problem, I believe. There's also the technology curve, and the fact that games are increasingly requiring super-fast / expensive hardware, while the rest of the computer's functions do not.

PCs are utility tools that accomplish web surfing, word processing, etc. You don't need a really high-end PC for that - and most people, therefore, don't get a high-end PC. There is not a dramatic and material difference to most people between a 1.5 GHz machine surfing the internet on a high-speed connection and a 3.0 GHz machine surfing the internet on high-speed. CD-ROMs / high-capacity storage, high-color and high-resolution imagery, and a quality aural experience are all as good as they need to be to allow the PC to perform its utilitarian functions and to play a decent number of quality games.

The problem is that just about all games today require a PC that is in the top 15-25%, and there is little or no reason to upgrade to the top 15-25% BESIDES games. When Myst came out and really pushed the CD-ROM format, there were lots of other reasons to go to CD-ROM - multimedia encyclopedias, easier software distribution, and so on and so forth. 3D cards caught on because they really dramatically improved games light-years beyond what could happen before. But the difference between the $75 and the $500 video cards today? Not that much.

They need to make games that a lot of PCs can run, and they need to make these games wow the general populace. They need to make games that will appeal to more people than just teenage / college / 20-something males. Simple games, even. They are succeeding quite well in doing this with online flash games - those dorky little puzzle games that most of us would disdain to even rank up there with PC greats like X-Com, Ultima VII, Wing Commander, etc. And, on the other hand, they need to make PC games more complex and less linear - give people a sandbox to play around in, with lots of options. This is why Space Rangers 2 is the greatest PC game of this past year (I believe this just got released in the US, by the way) - an entire world that you could play around in, with lots of options, that changes all the time...and it didn't require some super-duper graphics card / processor to run, either.

Distribution alone isn't the only thing plaguing PC game sales - they also need to recapture some of the depth and simplicity of gameplay and breadth of game experiences that PCs had in the early- to mid-1990s.

[chaoticjelly]

Wont ALL sections in videogame stores dwindle eventually? I mean, every year its taking larger and larger teams, with an ever increasing budget to create the latest releases..

What im saying is, eventually many smaller companies will have to drop out of making games for the PC and current gen consoles.... or am I wrong

[googlefest1]

I remember when the idea came to the public about downloading games and I remember reading that it was supposed to reduce the price tag because a box and manual would not have to be printed -- and what happened? the price remained the same

the only place where i have seen price reduction ideas come true is in the dvd arena -- dvds are way cheaper the VHS tapes used to be

the cd was supposed the lower the price of music and games - never happened

so this is my gripe with downloading in addition to the licensing bull. - charge 10$ for the downloadable game which can only be installed once and i wont complain. If you want to charge me 50$ then i better be able to make a hard copy image that i can install on a pc 5 years later to play the game again if i want to.

I haven’t kept up with the pc gaming scene for a while now – I’ve been buying old games and the few titles that I have been really really interested in. So I’m not sure about the frequency at which they get released. Has the number of games being released on pc gone down?

[cyberfluxor]

As personal opinion I find that my friends tend to just play on-line now if it's PC. Several of them only need 1 game, World of Warcraft, another just plays Everquest 2. There's millions of people out there playing older games from the mid 90's and up to the present that only want 1 game to play. I use to play thousands of hours of Starcraft back in highschool, didn't have a need for anything else (even consule-wise). I do buy PC games today but only titles I've been waiting for and know are good. Most things can just be played over flash sites and what have you free.

There's just a huge dynamic market for PC games now so I'm really not amazed to see limited options at the retail stores. Consules, as said before, are in deed easier to resell and distribute so they dominate the market in the stores.

To more closely answer you question though, yes everything is being downsized at the stores for computer sections, but there's lots of sites on-line that offer you to download a copy of the game and purchase a registration ID. So the way I see it, the market is somewhat smaller off-line but still growing on-line.

[mezrabad]

so this is my gripe with downloading in addition to the licensing bull. - charge 10$ for the downloadable game which can only be installed once and i wont complain. If you want to charge me 50$ then i better be able to make a hard copy image that i can install on a pc 5 years later to play the game again if i want to.

So say we all!

Yeah, that's my big gripe, too. If I'm paying $50 bucks, that sucker better be mine until I sell it to someone. Hey, there's my other problem. Pay $50 for something that not only can I not backup and play 5 years from now, I can't sell it used? No way.

Hmm, I was about to say something like "I buy all my PC games online via ebay or I order them new from gameslop" but then I realized, I haven't bought a PC game since the day after Christmas 2004! And that was a big pile of used stuff from a local EB. Anything since then has been console - modern and classic. Hmm, I used to be a big PC gamer. I guess I'm not anymore. :(

I'm still friggin' excited about Spore and Neverwinter Nights 2, though I don't know if I'll ever get a rig hot enough to play either of them. (my laptops are three years old and "good enough" for anything but playing new games.)

[Jorpho]

ConSOLE, not conSULE!

I think calthaer made an excellent point. Games have always pushed the limits of hardware, but the difference in terms of price between a typical PC and a PC capable of playing retail games really well is probably greater now than it ever has been.

[Iron Draggon]

PC game sections are definitely dwindling everywhere, and that includes the formerly major sources of PC games like Best Buy, Circuit City, Comp USA, and Fry's. But at least Fry's is still doing a much better job of keeping up with all the new releases than any of the other stores are, for the most part. Sometimes they are slower to get some of the new releases than any of the other stores are, but at least they are actually taking the bold step of making European imports for the PC available to the US market, as a very scant few online retailers like GoGamer.com are doing too.

As for online only downloads and digital distribution, they are great for those games that would never see the light of day in a brick and mortar store otherwise, but I hope that it doesn't become the norm for most PC releases either. It is a great option for those who just can't wait to play a game right away, but even most of those people would still prefer to have a hard copy delivered to their door as well. That should be the whole idea behind it, especially for full price. "Hey, you can play it right now, while you wait a few more weeks for your hard copy to arrive!" Then it would really take off. Or better yet, let people download the full version before the hard copy is even released in stores. That would do really well too. "Hey, you don't have to wait until official new release Tuesday a few weeks from now!"

If online only downloads and digital distribution are ever to really take off, then that is the way that it should be done. Release it for the entire world all at one time, in just one convenient location, instead of letting this region or that region have it months or years before it finally makes its way around the entire globe. People are really tired of that. And there is no legitimate excuse for it anymore. Especially if they are trying to shift the focus entirely to online only downloads and digital distribution. Why make people wait?

But what is the big complaint about Starforce? I keep on hearing alot about it, but nobody ever really says what the big gripe is. I have several games that use it, and the only thing that I find annoying about it is all the extra steps involved in completing the installation before you can play the game now. Install... enter activation code... restart... verify activation code... gets a bit annoying, but otherwise it doesn't seem to be causing any problems for me yet. But then I don't have a copy of Games X Copy installed on my PC anymore, so no virtual drives for Starforce to get upset about. That is taking it all a bit too far, especially when no game copy software that I know of will produce a usable hard copy of a game on a CD that has a copy protection scheme like Starforce in place on the original disc anyway.

The best that you can hope for is to burn an image that you can use in a virtual drive, which of course could be shared with others who use the same game copy software, but that is hardly enough people to justify going to such extreme measures to thwart them. And new OS's like Windows Vista are just going to make that sort of thing even worse, with the new idea of locking software and any copies that you make of that software specifcally to your own computer. Give it a rest, people. It never was and it never will be as much of a problem for the industry as the industry is making it out to be, and all the extremes that they are going to trying to prevent it are just pissing off legitimate customers and making them want to stick it back to the industry by joining those who aren't paying to play. They are just making the problem worse for themselves by calling as much attention to it as they are, and by going to such extreme measures trying to prevent the inevitable.

[YoshiM]

But what is the big complaint about Starforce? I keep on hearing alot about it, but nobody ever really says what the big gripe is. I have several games that use it, and the only thing that I find annoying about it is all the extra steps involved in completing the installation before you can play the game now. Install... enter activation code... restart... verify activation code... gets a bit annoying, but otherwise it doesn't seem to be causing any problems for me yet. But then I don't have a copy of Games X Copy installed on my PC anymore, so no virtual drives for Starforce to get upset about. That is taking it all a bit too far, especially when no game copy software that I know of will produce a usable hard copy of a game on a CD that has a copy protection scheme like Starforce in place on the original disc anyway.


From what I've seen, Starforce installs its own device drivers which is said to have caused instability and crashes. Check out this site (http://www.glop.org/starforce/) that explains it better. It's a Starforce boycott site but it has links to information (like the editor-in-chief of PC Gamer who tells his story about issues with Starforce).

[Flack]

I just watched a documentary not too long ago about how expensive Wal-Mart retail space is, and by that I mean the space inside the store. Every square inch of a store is carefully planned out, and items are carefully monitored so that if an item isn't selling enough to cover its "rent", it's removed from shelves very quickly. According to this article (http://www.dmni.com/The_Internet_is_transforming_the_rules_and_creatin g_a_new_boom.html), "Wal-Mart must sell at least 100,000 copies of a CD to cover its retail overhead and make a sufficient profit".

Selling electronic media through Wal-Mart is a double-edge sword, everybody knows that. On one side, Wal-Mart is very cutthroat when it comes to getting the best deal, giving them the highest profit margin available (that's not wrong, it's just business). On the other hand, most manufacturers will gladly give up a few bucks of profit since selling through Wal-Mart means instant customer base. By simply being on a Wal-Mart shelf, that's advertising. It is well-documented (1) that artists such as White Zombie, Poison, Ugly Kid Joe and Nirvana changed their album covers because Wal-Mart wouldn't sell the originals. And of course Wal-Mart is directly responsible for the two versions of many albums (clean version/dirty version). Wal-Mart is not forcing bands to do this; they do it because Wal-Mart is the world's largest CD retailer (http://www.pbs.org/itvs/storewars/stores3_2.html).

One can only assume that the same rules of business apply to entertainment software as well. Established software publishers would love for you to buy software from their website instead of a brick and morter store. They can charge essentially the same price and yet get rid of all their packaging and physical media. Look at iTunes. iTunes may have single-handedly saved the music industry by popularizing the pay-to-play music download phenom, and by selling over 1 billion songs to date. iTunes charges .99 cents per song. While some people think this is a good deal, the reality is there are lots of CDs with 12 songs that sell for $12, so if you download an entire album from iTunes you are essentially paying full-price for a CD without receiving a physical CD. You would think that for getting a virtual album you would save some money, but in reality last year the music industry pushed Apple to raise iTunes prices (http://www.technewsworld.com/story/49727.html). (According to that article, music labels make .70 cents of the .99 cents charged per download.) That will be a growing battle for some time; customers feel that without receiving anything "physical" with their purchase, they should pay less, while retailers feel customers should pay the same price.

(1) White Zombie airbrushed a bikini on their album cover, Poison blacked out most of their "Open Up and Say Ah!" cover, Ugly Kid Joe changed their mascot from flipping the bird to standing with tape over his mouth, and Nirvana (among other things) changed the name of "Rape Me" on In Utero to "Waif Me".

[Ed Oscuro]

Wal-Mart is not forcing bands to [censor; bands] do it because Wal-Mart is the world's largest CD retailer (http://www.pbs.org/itvs/storewars/stores3_2.html).
Hm? I've heard stories from people at other companies that tell me that Walmart puts pressure on them to lower the cost of their product and do other things. Walmart exerts tons of influence, and they throw it around whenever they think it'll help them make a buck. That's just the objective truth.

[Flack]

Wal-Mart is not forcing bands to [censor; bands] do it because Wal-Mart is the world's largest CD retailer (http://www.pbs.org/itvs/storewars/stores3_2.html).
Hm? I've heard stories from people at other companies that tell me that Walmart puts pressure on them to lower the cost of their product and do other things. Walmart exerts tons of influence, and they throw it around whenever they think it'll help them make a buck. That's just the objective truth.
I'm not sure what your question is; I agree with what you say. Maybe what I should have said is, Wal-Mart is not doing the censoring -- bands and record labels do it themselves so that their merchandise will be sold at Wal-Mart, who currently sells 20% of all music CDs sold.

[Yago]

I noticed this recently at a local Best Buy in Denver. The PC section is quarter of what it used to be. However, the PC games are plentiful at Micro Center. But still, not what it used to be. I have not purchased a PC game in a while. My take is this, I don't have a powerful enough computer to play any of the new games. I don't have the money now for a new computer either. I think the younger generation of gamers are geared toward consoles, and not PC's for game playing. Not many people have the money to buy a new computer every 3 years. In most part, I think the general public is falling behind, PC games are too demanding on hardware, which most of us can't afford the latest and greatest. If I had money, I would buy a new PC, and start buying PC games again. In the meantime, I'll keep buying console games. There are a lot of PC games I want too this year, but probably can't play on my 5 year old piece of PC shit.

[swlovinist]

I did game retail for over two years and noticed several things about PC gaming.

1. The PC market thrives on MMORPG's, Strategy, FPS, and sim related games.

2. Their is not alot of middle ground for PC games. Either you need a beast of a machine to run something, or the game will run in on a piece of crap. There is alot of value software, and then there are the $40 to $50 premium games. There is also the "Top five or so MMORPGs that in one version or another will always do well".

3. There are alot of fun and free games that do not require any CDs....just simply download and play.

The PC will always be around, and it definately has its strong following. The problem is that the current games just seem to require a tremendous amount of mula to run(Elder Scrolls IV), something that is currently becomming more of a problem. The PC version is usually better, but when it costs $1000 to $1500 to run it, is is worth it???

The bottom line is that cosole game systems are cheaper and easier to play and install. With that, they appeal to a more mainstream crowd of people. More people buying console games means less floor space for PC games in stores. Again I am not taking sides on which one I prefer...it is just what I have observed in game stores, what I have read from sales sheets, and what I have generally noticed on store floors.