Inmate sues prison for breaking his Dreamcast ...

[Vroomfunkel]

.. and loses.

Story here (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/scotland/tayside_and_central/4930544.stm)

I think they had a bit of trouble finding a suitable library picture for this one too, by the looks.

Not to mention £350 seems a bit steep for a Dreamcast and 15 games ... even in 2004

[Pantechnicon]

Maybe he needed the extra quid to upgrade to a PS2. I dunno.

Vroom, let me ask you something slightly off-topic about this:


Shannon is serving five years and three months after a jury found him guilty of attacking his friend Colin Grieve, 23. He left Mr Grieve scarred for life by stabbing him several times and hitting his head and body with a metal bar.

It just seems to me like ever since England banned private firearm ownership that while the murder rate may have gone down somewhat, the balance of violent crimes against others in the UK has been supplanted with these reports of victims being permanently maimed, disfigured, crippled etc. Does anybody in England ever look at this and say "We were better off with guns"?, or is this increase in permanent and traumatic injury considered an acceptable tradeoff for a lower homicide rate? I'm not trying to be facetious. I'd really just like to know the average English mindset about this. Please feel free to PM if you'd care to reply. Thanks.

[Vroomfunkel]

I don't mind the question at all. First, relying on media reports as an indicator of crime levels, or even the nature of crime, is a very hairy way to do things. I would say that the prevalance of these kind of reports perhaps reveals more about the changing nature of the media and public appetite than about actual trends of behaviour.

I don't really know how much I can speak for the 'average' British person, but I don't know a single person who wants handguns legalised again. Quite the opposite - there's pressure for tighter controls (e.g. on replica / deactivated handguns which are increasingly being adapted by criminal communities for practical use).

On the whole, the police do not want guns either - police unions have almost unanimously opposed calls to arm officers as a matter of course, because they feel that this would lead to unwanted escalation rather than be a deterrant.

Also, I think that you would probably find that a similar amount of violent attacks like the one in this story occur in the US, but since gun crime far more often results in fatalities then they make the news and you just don't hear about the rest.

And personally, whilst I am concerned about violent crime (I live in one of the worst areas in the country for it) - I would be absolutely opposed to handguns being legalised. There are many, many reasons for this - but three of the main ones are:

1) Lessens the opportunity for tragedies like Dumblane - which was what prompted the ban in the first place. Sure, if Thomas Hamilton had rampaged with knives it would have been horrific. But there's almost no doubt that he would never have managed to kill 16 children.

2) Not having handguns allowed in the household means that they are not there when domestic incidents blow up, or when depression hits. Statistics show that having a handgun in your house increases the chance that someone in your house will be shot - and that is largely due to domestic incidents getting out of hand. I find this immensely tragic - people are actually being killed simply because there is a gun to hand which gets used in the heat of the moment over trivialities.

3) Less deaths overall - no matter what way you look at it, it's a hell of a lot more difficult to actually kill someone if a gun is not involved. There was a pretty horrific attack in the news this morning, a guy had fingers cut off and an arm nearly severed. But he's alive - had his assailants had guns, he would almost certainly be dead. Less people dying is good in my book.


Finally, I think it is important to realise that even before handguns were banned, gun ownership in the UK was nothing like it was in the US. (N.B. private firearms are *not* banned .. just handguns and automatic weapons. Rifles and shotguns are allowed, with a permit and they must be kept in a locked cabinet)

So it's just not so much of an issue here. People don't tend to wander around saying "it was better when we had guns" ... because pretty much nobody did have them, even when they were allowed.

Vroomfunkel

[Pantechnicon]

You've obviously given the issue some thought. Thanks for taking the time to write back at length.

[MegaDrive20XX]

Wait wait, did they just say his wife is 39 and he's 24? Man what a pimp :D

[tssk]

Maybe he needed the extra quid to upgrade to a PS2. I dunno.

Vroom, let me ask you something slightly off-topic about this:


Shannon is serving five years and three months after a jury found him guilty of attacking his friend Colin Grieve, 23. He left Mr Grieve scarred for life by stabbing him several times and hitting his head and body with a metal bar.

It just seems to me like ever since England banned private firearm ownership that while the murder rate may have gone down somewhat, the balance of violent crimes against others in the UK has been supplanted with these reports of victims being permanently maimed, disfigured, crippled etc. Does anybody in England ever look at this and say "We were better off with guns"?, or is this increase in permanent and traumatic injury considered an acceptable tradeoff for a lower homicide rate? I'm not trying to be facetious. I'd really just like to know the average English mindset about this. Please feel free to PM if you'd care to reply. Thanks.

Sorry to jump in here but I wanted to add this.

There's an opinion amongst some that more liberal gun laws would have allowed the victim to defend himself.

In this case for instance this man could have defended himself against his violent friend.

On the other hand it could have easily gone the other way. The offender might have shot his friend rather than attack him with an iron bar.

Then again what would I know? I live in Australia, a country with some pretty strict gun laws. We also hold the world record for the largest mass killing by one gunman. (Port Arthur.)

Back on topic, why the hell is this guy allowed to play video games in jail?

Isn't jail suppossed to be an exile based punishment?

[FantasiaWHT]

Thank God I live in America. Too bad I'm living in one of now only 2 states that doesn't allow concealed carry... Governor's up for reelection tho, woohoo!

Although our jails are often nicer places to live than the streets the criminals came from too...

[evildead2099]

Since this issue has been politicized...

THIS NEVER WOULD HAVE HAPPENED IF ENGLAND HAD MADE PRAYER IN ALL SCHOOLS MANDITORY x_x @_@

[stressboy]

Since this issue has been politicized...

THIS NEVER WOULD HAVE HAPPENED IF ENGLAND HAD MADE PRAYER IN ALL SCHOOLS MANDITORY x_x @_@


Everyone needs a little Xenu in their lives.

[tylerwillis]

Intriguing reply, Vroomfunkel. Thanks for taking the time to type that. It's rather interesting to hear that perspective... I live in Texas, and it's rather the exception to the rule if you don't own some type of projectile weapon.

[Bronty-2]

I read somewhere that there are 12 guns in texas for every man, woman, and child.

No disrespect to you, but I find those kinds of numbers appalling.

My own point of view is that there are very few goods reasons for anyone to own a gun... so reading a statistic like that (assuming its true) just blows my mind.

I think automatic weapons are illegal here too (canada) although I could be wrong about that. Nontheless they should be... what the hell do you need an AK47 for besides slaughtering people?

[Moo Cow]

I read somewhere that there are 12 guns in texas for every man, woman, and child.

What are your thoughts on the rate of gun ownership in texas? No disrespect to you, but I find those kinds of numbers appalling.

My own point of view is that there are very few goods reasons for anyone to own a gun... so reading a statistic like that (assuming its true) just blows my mind.
I think that's a bit of an exaggeration. LOL

[anagrama]

Does anybody in England ever look at this and say "We were better off with guns"?

I can only echo Vroom's response here, and say that I have never heard a single statement, even from the most lunatic fringe groups, that makes that case.



or is this increase in permanent and traumatic injury considered an acceptable tradeoff for a lower homicide rate?

Before answering that, I'd want to see some kind of evidence for there having been an increase. Again, I've personally seen or heard no indication that that is the case.

[Moo Cow]

hmmm...just while on the subject of being killed or losing the arm, I'd probably go for being killed...I'd just feel too weird without an arm...

[Bronty-2]

I read somewhere that there are 12 guns in texas for every man, woman, and child.

What are your thoughts on the rate of gun ownership in texas? No disrespect to you, but I find those kinds of numbers appalling.

My own point of view is that there are very few goods reasons for anyone to own a gun... so reading a statistic like that (assuming its true) just blows my mind.
I think that's a bit of an exaggeration. LOL

I don't know about that - read the wording. It's not saying the average citizen owns 12 guns, it's saying there are 12 guns for each citizen - that's different. There are a lot of jails in texas, correct? A lot of those could be institutionally owned. And I'm sure in a state where the incidence of ownership is high that there are probably gun collectors with 2,000 guns that really skew the #s. But if true it's far too many by any measure.

I wish I could remember the source, but it wasn't a tabloid.

[Moo Cow]

I read somewhere that there are 12 guns in texas for every man, woman, and child.

What are your thoughts on the rate of gun ownership in texas? No disrespect to you, but I find those kinds of numbers appalling.

My own point of view is that there are very few goods reasons for anyone to own a gun... so reading a statistic like that (assuming its true) just blows my mind.
I think that's a bit of an exaggeration. LOL

I don't know about that - read the wording. It's not saying the average citizen owns 12 guns, it's saying there are 12 guns for each citizen - that's different. There are a lot of jails in texas, correct? A lot of those could be institutionally owned. And I'm sure in a state where the incidence of ownership is high that there are probably gun collectors with 2,000 guns that really skew the #s. But if true it's far too many by any measure.

I wish I could remember the source, but it wasn't a tabloid.

Well, that may be right, I have no clue, and can't really say either way.
But if a lot of them are in a private collector's house, I can't say I'm not too worried about it.
I'd start to get worried if everyone had 2 or 3 guns...
Unless they're registered, because the rate in Texas for violence for people with concealed carrying permits is 28 to 1. People with liscenses are quite a bit less violenct then people without.

[Push Upstairs]

Why does this guy have a video game system when he is in jail?

He's supposed to be punished for doing wrong deeds not loafing about playing video games.

[Melf]

what the hell do you need an AK47 for besides slaughtering people?


"Hunting," of course!

[Vroomfunkel]

hmmm...just while on the subject of being killed or losing the arm, I'd probably go for being killed...I'd just feel too weird without an arm...

Of course it would be weird. But you'd get used to it. Humans are remarkably adaptable creatures y'know. You can still listen to music, read books, play football, have sex etc.. etc. without an arm. Death is hardly preferable, methinks!!

Anyway, since it seems to be where his has gone, here's a brief history of gun control in the UK:

1987: The Hungerford massacre.

Maniac rampages with legally owned AK47, Beretta and assorted other arms. Kills 16, injures 15.

1988: Semi-automatic rifles are banned, guns that can fire more than two rounds without re-loading are heavily restricted.

1996: Dumblane massacre

Maniac armed with assorted legally owned handguns enters school and kills 16 children (all aged 5-6) and one teacher, injures 15 others.

1997: Handguns banned in UK.


In short, even though handgun ownership was not especially popular in the UK, Dumblane was so horrific that pretty much no-one even blinked when private handgun ownership was subsequently banned. It just seemd the completely obvious thing to do.

So .. there it is. Want to know why we don't have handguns in the UK? Well, you try standing in front of a line of parents who've had their 5 year olds shot in the head, and explaining to them why it's so damn important for you to have your own handgun ...



... yeah, no-one here could think of any good enough reason either.

Vroomfunkel

[ClubNinja]

I like this "no gun" thing. We should import that.

[Griking]

Why does this guy have a video game system when he is in jail?

He's supposed to be punished for doing wrong deeds not loafing about playing video games.

Because even though they're in jail, people still need to do something with thier time. Most jails have deciced that if it keeps the inmates quiet and less violent then its worthwile.

[Yago]

hmmm...just while on the subject of being killed or losing the arm, I'd probably go for being killed...I'd just feel too weird without an arm...

Of course it would be weird. But you'd get used to it. Humans are remarkably adaptable creatures y'know. You can still listen to music, read books, play football, have sex etc.. etc. without an arm. Death is hardly preferable, methinks!!

Anyway, since it seems to be where his has gone, here's a brief history of gun control in the UK:

1987: The Hungerford massacre.

Maniac rampages with legally owned AK47, Beretta and assorted other arms. Kills 16, injures 15.

1988: Semi-automatic rifles are banned, guns that can fire more than two rounds without re-loading are heavily restricted.

1996: Dumblane massacre

Maniac armed with assorted legally owned handguns enters school and kills 16 children (all aged 5-6) and one teacher, injures 15 others.

1997: Handguns banned in UK.

In short, even though handgun ownership was not especially popular in the UK, Dumblane was so horrific that pretty much no-one even blinked when private handgun ownership was subsequently banned. It just seemd the completely obvious thing to do.


... yeah, no-one here could think of any good enough reason either.

Vroomfunkel

Could go both ways. having armed citizens that qualify, of course, and are trained, could repell attacks like this. There are FAR more good people in the U.S who own guns than bad ones. But it is only the bad ones you hear about in the news.

How about...

Intruder enters Yago's house. Yago has NO idea who the hell this person is. Yago calls 911 but can't wait for the police so yago grabs a gun to defend himself if he has to. Yago comes face to face with the intruder holding a very big screw driver. Yago pulls gun and pins intruder to the wall with gun to the back of his head and patiently waits for the police to arrive. Bad guy goes to jail. Yago lives happily ever after.(Yes, true story) Now I love you Brits like our brothers. Truth is though, if it were not for Americans owning guns, this country would have been England 2 a long time ago. :D. Yes, that was a long time ago and times change, but I am not about to rely on the government OR local law enforcement to protect me.

[FantasiaWHT]

It would be one thing to ban private ownership of guns or handguns in a country that already didn't have a lot.

If we did "import" a gun ban like that, how on EARTH would you actually enforce it? I can tell you for certain the criminals that are already owning a gun illegally aren't going to give theirs up. Banning gun ownership here would make crime a LOT worse.

[Sothy]

ill take getting shot over being beaten to death with a pipe myself.

[Ed Oscuro]

ill take getting shot over being beaten to death with a pipe myself.
I'll block that damn metal bar, or at least absorb the blow with my arm, rather than absorb a slug to the eye socket.

Also bullshit on importing a universal gun law into the states. We need to be able to overthrow the government guyz

[Satac]

How about...

Intruder enters Yago's house. Yago has NO idea who the hell this person is. Yago calls 911 but can't wait for the police so yago grabs a gun to defend himself if he has to. Yago comes face to face with the intruder holding a very big screw driver. Yago pulls gun and pins intruder to the wall with gun to the back of his head and patiently waits for the police to arrive. Bad guy goes to jail. Yago lives happily ever after.(Yes, true story) Now I love you Brits like our brothers. Truth is though, if it were not for Americans owning guns, this country would have been England 2 a long time ago. :D. Yes, that was a long time ago and times change, but I am not about to rely on the government OR local law enforcement to protect me.

Well, I remember the time when I got back early from a holiday and my parents were not expecting me so early. I snuck in and didn't want to wake them, but they heared me and thought I was an burglar.
With a gun in the house things could have gone bad. There are countless other situations where having a loaded gun in your house is bad.
Gun laws here in germany are very strict - it's very hard to get a handgun and impossible to get an automatic gun. We don't have hordes of people invading houses and I never was in a situation where I had the need for a gun.