NES Way of the Exploding Fist

[flicky]

Hi everyone

I found this cartridge today:

http://www.geocities.com/j.legg/nescart.jpg

I can't find any reference to this game in the NES list in the Digital Press Guide. I think it might be a prototype cartridge of a previously unreleased game. I've never seen a NES proto before, could this be one?

I found the cartridge here in the UK, and when I tried it on my UK NES, the title screen flashes (which is what usually happens with NTSC carts). The title screen states "Published by.." but then there's just blank space. The bottom of the title screen mentions Nintendo of America. So I think it's likely that it's NTSC format.

I believe that Beam Software programmed the 8-bit computer versions of this game, so it's plausible that they would have worked on a NES version. But until I can get access to a NTSC NES machine, or a suitable adaptor for my machine, I can't say how far they got with this.

If anyone's got any thoughts on this, that would be great.

Thanks
Jon

[cyberfluxor]

As long as this is another Bio Force Ape situation it would be nice to hear what others come up with.

Here's a bit of info I guess:
http://homepages.tesco.net/~parsonsp/html/way_of_the_exploding_fist.html

[portnoyd]

Way of the Exploding Fist for the NES was programmed by Andrew Davies. He doesn't even have a copy, on cart or disk. He lost it many years ago.

I don't think it was ever put onto a cart though. I won't rule it out though, unless I can find his emails.

Your Geocities site has exceeded bandwidth, so the pic does not work.

[portnoyd]

From: Andrew Davie [mailto:]
Sent: Wednesday, December 04, 2002 2:24 AM
To: X.X
Subject: Re: Way of the Exploding... WHAT?!

Yes, I did in fact write and complete a version of Way of the Exploding Fist for NES It worked using character graphics, with bank switching on each line. There were, IIRC, 10 character sets, so the guys were 10 lines high. Each line, then, held the graphics for all of the frames of the fighters. Worked well. I didn't keep a copy of it after I left Beam Software, and there aren't, as far as I know, any backups. I did try to chase this up a while ago. I've half a mind to write it again sometime :)

Cheers
A

> On your site it mentions that you programmed "Way of
>the Exploding Fist" for the Nintendo Entertainment
>System. Now I'm very familiar with the Commodore 64
>version of this game, it's a favorite of mine. But it was
>never released for the NES. Was it a work in progress?
>And if so... you know my next question: is there a beta
>floating around somewhere?

Also, our own slapdash was curious 4 years earlier...

http://www.biglist.com/lists/stella/archives/199808/msg00006.html

Take that as you will. I'd start by opening up the cart, taking a pic, and getting that and the cart pic on better hosting. :)

So yes, it could be the real deal. Want to sell it? You got a buyer right here. ;)

[flicky]

Thanks for all the info, interesting stuff!

Sorry if you can't see the photo now, I only have one of the free Geocities websites. If anyone would like me to send them the photo by email so they can post it here again, do LMK.

Cheers
Jon

[Kitsune Sniper]

Way of the Exploding Fist for the NES was programmed by Andrew Davies. He doesn't even have a copy, on cart or disk. He lost it many years ago.

I don't think it was ever put onto a cart though. I won't rule it out though, unless I can find his emails.

Your Geocities site has exceeded bandwidth, so the pic does not work.

The pic won't work either way, Geocities disables image hosting, like he tried to do. I suggest he upload it to ImageShack or IMGBoot.

Anyway...

At first, judging from the title of this post, I thought the guy was going to write about "Fist of the North Star". You know, Hokuto No Ken? I had no idea about this game, let alone that it already existed on the C64.

[mojofltr]

Thought I'd mention that this is cross-posted at Atariage (http://www.atariage.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=87396&st=0&gopid=1061763&#entry1061763)

This way, anyone interested can get whatever information pops up.

Also, I nabbed the snapshot when Flicky first posted on Atariage. Here it is for as long as Sitesled can tolerate me for posting it:

http://mojofltr.sitesled.com/nescart2.jpg
(I cropped and resized it a bit)

[rcgamer]

anyone tried calling the number? who knows, it may still be valid.

NM, i see after looking up the name that this guy has been involved with several companies since then. was one of the heads of 3do and activision. im sure several of you knew that already.

[hezeuschrist]

I'm interested in where you found the cart. It always blows my mind that stuff like this surfaces at all.

[jajaja]

Bio Force Ape thread also comes to my mind hehe :P

Open it up and take pics.
Modify your NES so it could play NTSC games, then take pics.

[Ruudos]

You could also test it in a Famicom/NES clone if you have one.

[flicky]

Hezeuschrist, I found the cartridge at a flea market during my lunch break. I live in the North West of England.

I'll open the cartridge up later this evening and post a photo here later.

As for trying out the game, I'm asking a couple of friends if they can help out - I will post here and at AtariAge as soon as there's any news!

Cheers
Jon

[rbudrick]

If you cut pin four of your PAL NES lockout chip, this game will play just fine.

-Rob

[Mayhem]

That part I've already passed on :)

I'll be seeing Jon in two weeks time, so hopefully we'll have a result by then...

[jajaja]

Here is a guide on how to make your NES universal :)

Link (http://www.nesworld.com/unines2.htm)

[flicky]

Thanks to everyone for all the info on modifying my PAL NES. I will do this as soon as I get the chance, I promise :)

I opened up the cart this evening and have now uploaded some pictures of the circuit board here: http://jon-legg.magix.net/

Cheers
Jon

[Mayhem]

For those who can't find the pics, click "My Hobby" on the left hand side after going to the page :)

Interesting... a very small circuit board there in the case. I guess that makes sense as it says "256 x 256" on the label, so only two chips used.

[portnoyd]

Looks pretty legit. And 256 bytes x 256 bytes is 65k, which fits into the whole 'small file size' theory from the stuff I posted earlier.

Mayhem, let us know (let me know >.>)

[jajaja]

So.. any update or was it fake?

[Mayhem]

Jon is leaving the modding of the NES until I get there next weekend, so we'll hopefully have some pics then :)

[jajaja]

Ok, looking forward to it :)

[flicky]

Hi everyone

I'm posting this message to the forums at both Digital Press and Atari Age.

This weekend I had a gaming get together at my place, and we managed to get Way of the Exploding Fist up and running!

Mat (Mayhem) adapted my PAL machine to play NTSC titles, and we managed to get a stable picture when we plugged the cartridge in.

We've taken some photos (variable quality I'm afraid), and I've now posted 4 of them here: http://jon-legg.magix.net/ [click on My Hobby]

These show
1. the intro screen when you turn the macine on
2. the title screen where you can choose the number of players (1, 2 or 3)
3. an in-game screen
4. the high score table showing my user ID and the programmer's name!

Screens 1, 2 and 4 above are stable on my TV, but screen 3 suffers from a *lot* of graphical glitches. The basic game seems to play fine, you can move left and right, punch, kick and jump. When you hit an opponent, you can also see stars above their head on the screenshot I've posted.

I discussed the glitch problem with the others (Mayhem, Steve Rich - Jobf, and Keith Ainsworth). The consensus was that either the game has the glitches as it's not fully developed, or it would need an actual NTSC machine to run 100%, rather than a modded PAL unit.

So now, I am wanting to get the ROM dumped asap, and get hold of a US machine to test this further.

Does anyone know of any NES collectors living in the UK who would have the ability to dump the ROM for me? I would much prefer to do this than risk sending it overseas.

Cheers
Jon

[Niku-Sama]

hey flicky, where did you find this thing?

[flicky]

I found it at a flea market one day recently during my lunch break at work (I live in the North West of England).

It's a very odd place for a NTSC proto to show up, but hey, I'm not complaining :)

Jon

[jajaja]

Ah.. cool u got it to work :) Great find! I'd say the glitches is because of the PAL machine. Nevertheless, it works and its a unreleased NES game. Will bring in a small fortune if you sell it.

[Niku-Sama]

i think its interesting where these things wind up at.

i just would like to find something like that some day.

[retroplayer]

a real nice find especcialy if it,s found in north england you don,t aspect to find a proto there.

[rbudrick]

Or, the glitching could be from bitrot.

<dodges tomatoes>

-Rob

[Mayhem]

We considered that but it's completely random glitching; sometimes a graphic is okay, sometimes it isn't.

[rbudrick]

We considered that but it's completely random glitching; sometimes a graphic is okay, sometimes it isn't.

And you are positive that the contacts in the cart or the NES aren't dirty or loose?

So any plans on getting it dumped?

-Rob

[Mayhem]

I can attune for the cart, I cleaned it myself. Can't say for the NES, but the only graphics that glitch are ingame; the title screen and hiscore tables are fine. A certain graphics mode the game uses for the fighting bits...?

As for dumping, yes we'd like it done but preferably without having to send it if possible, and if so, no further than Europe (for security sake).

[NESaholic]

Wow Jon, great find man congrats! :)

[NESaholic]

Wow Jon, great find man congrats! :)

[sniperCCJVQ]

Awesome find !

Especially when it's found in the north of England and not in California or such place.

[sniperCCJVQ]

Awesome find !

Especially when it's found in the north of England and not in California or such place.

[Speedy_NES]

I'm surprised there haven't been that many reactions yet in this thread, this is seriously one of those finds that you don't come across often at all. Congrats Jon! Hopefully I'll be able to go to Eurocon this year, in which case I'm definitely looking forward to checking this game out ;)

[Speedy_NES]

I'm surprised there haven't been that many reactions yet in this thread, this is seriously one of those finds that you don't come across often at all. Congrats Jon! Hopefully I'll be able to go to Eurocon this year, in which case I'm definitely looking forward to checking this game out ;)

[Hounder]

That is so cool man! Congrats! Wish I could find an unreleased proto like that out in the wild. If you ever decide to sell, I can gaurantee you will get some big bucks out of it (that's if you don't dump it; otherwise you will still get some bucks out of it just not as much ;)).

[Hounder]

That is so cool man! Congrats! Wish I could find an unreleased proto like that out in the wild. If you ever decide to sell, I can gaurantee you will get some big bucks out of it (that's if you don't dump it; otherwise you will still get some bucks out of it just not as much ;)).

[rbudrick]

As for dumping, yes we'd like it done but preferably without having to send it if possible, and if so, no further than Europe (for security sake).

Well, Kevin Horton (maker of the CopyNES) usually does dumping of unreleased protos free of charge. He dumped a bunch of my protos and even said he'll pay for return shipping, though I sent him $10 anyway. He had them dumped and back to me in no time. Horton is the man.

-Rob

[rbudrick]

As for dumping, yes we'd like it done but preferably without having to send it if possible, and if so, no further than Europe (for security sake).

Well, Kevin Horton (maker of the CopyNES) usually does dumping of unreleased protos free of charge. He dumped a bunch of my protos and even said he'll pay for return shipping, though I sent him $10 anyway. He had them dumped and back to me in no time. Horton is the man.

-Rob

[TheRedEye]

I can dump it easily, but you'd have to send it to the 'states. Flicky, I'll ask around and see if anyone wants to ship a copynes to you. I'll PM you in a bit.

[TheRedEye]

I can dump it easily, but you'd have to send it to the 'states. Flicky, I'll ask around and see if anyone wants to ship a copynes to you. I'll PM you in a bit.

[Andrew Davie]

Ah.. cool u got it to work :) Great find! I'd say the glitches is because of the PAL machine. Nevertheless, it works and its a unreleased NES game. Will bring in a small fortune if you sell it.


Hi everone. I don't usually visit DP so it takes something special to lure me here. And this is it.

Just a couple of things to say...

Firstly, I'm happy to confirm that this is the genuine article. I'm delighted to see it again after all these years. It's always nice to have one's personal property found, after it has been lost/appropriated.

As to the 'small fortune', the point is moot, surely. I would expect he plans to return it to me, its rightful owner... after this was a cartridge out on loan, not a product to be bought/sold in the open market!

Cheers
A[/b]

[jajaja]

So the game was stolen from you ~20 years ago?

[Mayhem]

I'm assuming he's being sarcastic here :P

[jajaja]

Hm.. hard to say. I dont pick up the sarcasm (if any) at all.

[Hounder]

Lol....I find it quite funny. Because actually this is MY cart but Flicky you can go ahead and keep it. I don't mind :roll:

[geneshifter]

I say prove it.

Who cares if it was his property. He has no claim to it any longer.

[Hounder]

Exactly. Anyone can come on these boards and claim they own someone else's games. I can say that the gold NWC that buyatari and dreamTR have are actually mine and they stole them from me and I want them back. But 1. Not a soul is going to believe me. 2. Ain't no way they are going to just up and give them to me. Those carts are theirs. Same goes for this game. Flicky PAID for it so therefore he is the rightful owner of it. Andrew Davie, if your name appears in the credits as the creator and all that good stuff, then MAYBE we'll start to believe you ;)

[Mayhem]

He did write the game, that part is well known enough (and if you check the pictures we took, his name is also in the hiscore table).

Legally, Jon owns the cartridge, there can be no claim on that whatsoever. The contents... well that's another matter.

[Andrew Davie]

I say prove it.

Who cares if it was his property. He has no claim to it any longer.

Proof is in the pudding!

Just as a general observation, and in no way impugning the status of this prototype, I'm sure you will find that anyone buying stolen property does not own that property at all. The fact that it was paid for is neither here nor there, it is still stolen. In such cases, the law is that the property is returned to its original owner and the purchaser is generally lucky to escape being charged with 'handling or receiving stolen goods'.

It will be nice to see the right thing done here, and I'm sure Jon knows exactly my opinions and expectations on this issue. In fact, I've sent him a personal message with my 'demands'. Once again, I'm so excited about this find, and looking forward to seeing this lost game return after all these years!

Cheers
A

[Speedy_NES]

I say prove it.

Who cares if it was his property. He has no claim to it any longer.

Proof is in the pudding!

Just as a general observation, and in no way impugning the status of this prototype, I'm sure you will find that anyone buying stolen property does not own that property at all. The fact that it was paid for is neither here nor there, it is still stolen. In such cases, the law is that the property is returned to its original owner and the purchaser is generally lucky to escape being charged with 'handling or receiving stolen goods'.

It will be nice to see the right thing done here, and I'm sure Jon knows exactly my opinions and expectations on this issue. In fact, I've sent him a personal message with my 'demands'. Once again, I'm so excited about this find, and looking forward to seeing this lost game return after all these years!

Cheers
A

I think this is fairly funny. You have some serious demands and as far as I'm concerned, have not earned any respect to make such demands. Next thing you know, the game will be "stolen" from the person who found it and disappear for the rest of your life. You should be happy that it was found in the first place and not lost forever.

[Skrybe]

Wouldn't this cartridge be property of the company developing or distributing the game, i.e. Beam Software, and not the individual programmer? While you, Andrew, understandably have more claim to the game than Flicky here, I don't see how you can say it's your personal property.

[jcalder8]

Proof is in the pudding!

It will be nice to see the right thing done here, and I'm sure Jon knows exactly my opinions and expectations on this issue. In fact, I've sent him a personal message with my 'demands'. Once again, I'm so excited about this find, and looking forward to seeing this lost game return after all these years!

Cheers
A

Hmmm where to start how about with demands. Demands?? Wouldn't requests have been a better word to use? Moving on to the fact that he has to return it. At this point he doesn't have to do anything because you have yet to show owner ship of the item. We'll assume for a minute that you really are the creater of the game, dispite the leap that that is, that still doesn't give you ownership in and of itself. You would have created the game for a company and it is therefore the actual property of that company. Lets go one step further and say that when you created the game you kept the rights of it for yourself well that means that he can't distribute the game without paying you.

Now we get to the final step that assuming all of the above is true and that you own everything about this game it is still up to you to prove that it was stolen from you. Even if there is only one copy in the world and you can prove that you still have to prove that it was stolen from you. There is currently nothing to say that you didn't throw it out years ago or maybe gave it to a friend. You need a lot of proof in order for something like this to hold up through the courts.

[Griking]

So how many vultures have swooped in since your original post and attempted to buy this from you?

I also call bullshit as far as "Andrew Davie's" claim. I'm sure that he's aware that no intelligent person would simply hand over a one of a kind proto to him without some sort of proof to back his claims that's he's the rightful owner. It was stolen from you? I'm sure you have a police report then. Honestly, I don't even believe that the poster is who he says he is.

[Andrew Davie]

Wouldn't this cartridge be property of the company developing or distributing the game, i.e. Beam Software, and not the individual programmer? While you, Andrew, understandably have more claim to the game than Flicky here, I don't see how you can say it's your personal property.

Fair point. However, even If this were the case, then you're still arguing that it is not Flicky's property. You can't have it both ways.

The history of the devlopment of this game is not exactly straightforward. This game was not developed when I was working in Melbourne, but done after I left Beam and was working in Chicago. I sent the game to BEAM, and BEAM tried to sell this to potential buyers -- hence the demo/prototype cartridge sent to Beam's agent, Dick Lehrberg.

It's rather interesting to read everyone's attitudes and replies here. Dare I even mention that this game is copyright? Even copying this game is probably breaking the law, forget about ownership issues!

But nobody wants to know about copyright, do they. Especially when an unreleased prototype has been rediscovered. Let's just make sure it's 'backed up' so that everyone can have it, right?

Cheers
A

[TheRedEye]

You've got to be shitting me.

[Speedy_NES]

I agree with Griking that I doubt you are the actual Andrew Davie. I find it odd how you make demands that, regardless of whether or not you have substantial evidence to support your claim, are simply unrealistic, and unattainable, unless you are willing to go the extra mile and spend a lot of money, and even then there are so many loopholes and measures that can be taken by the other party to ensure that you will never get your hands on this prototype. Honestly, if you want it back so badly, you should have thought more in depth on how you are going to attain it rather than making a direct demand such as this. Good luck!

[TheRedEye]

No, that's the real Davie all right, though he seems to have lost all sense of mannerism and common courtesy.

This prototype cartridge was purchased and is owned by Flicky. Andrew, if you'd like, and with flicky's permission, I will gladly commission a reproduction be made and have it sent to you, out of my own pocket, as I've done several times over for creators who have lost their work. Most of them have been thrilled to have it. But that physical cartridge belongs to flicky, that's not your property. It voluntarily left your possession years and years ago.

If you'd like it back, the least you could do is offer a modest finder's fee.

[Andrew Davie]

No, that's the real Davie all right, though he seems to have lost all sense of mannerism and common courtesy.

This prototype cartridge was purchased and is owned by Flicky. Andrew, if you'd like, and with flicky's permission, I will gladly commission a reproduction be made and have it sent to you, out of my own pocket, as I've done several times over for creators who have lost their work. Most of them have been thrilled to have it. But that physical cartridge belongs to flicky, that's not your property.

That is incredibly kind of you, thank you for the offer. But I must decline. I will be happy one day to get my hands on this game, but not by that route :)

As to my courtesy and mannerisms, all is not as it seems.

Cheers
A

[TheRedEye]

As to my courtesy and mannerisms, all is not as it seems.

I sure hope not. From what I'm seeing on this board, it seems like you just stormed in demanding that this thing be sent back to you for free. I mean, this is ultimately between you and flicky, but flicky's a nice guy who isn't used to dealing with these sorts of things, and I would hope that you're at least talking things out with him rather than saying "GIMME! MINE!"

[Andrew Davie]

I'm enjoying very much reading the replies, but I think I'd better make my position on this prototype much clearer before any of you get a bit too worked up.

I am quite delighted that this prototype has been found. I'm sure we all are, and obviously it's incredibly rare and very possibly the only copy of the game left in existence.

I've been leading you all on, a bit. I don't really expect Jon to give me this prototype -- but I did want to point out the vagaries of how you are treating the legal and ownership issues. This is still a copyrighted game, and you're quite happily talking about making (and distributing) copies. A very grey area, but for the record I personally approve of the idea that such prototypes are at the very least preserved by archiving before they are lost for good.

What should Jon do with it? Whatever he wants. Good find, and great that he's taken the time to share the discovery with us. What do I expect? Nothing, other than good care is taken of it, and it is preserved for the community. Do I really expect him to give it to me? No.

Do I really think I have a legal claim over the contents and possibly the protype itself? Not really. Maybe. Possibly in the copyright area. But in any case, I hereby officially renounce any such copyright that might exist.

What was the point of all this? Just a bit of fun to show how people really aren't interested in respecting copright, and probably even legal ownership. Some of you were saying in as many words 'so what if its stolen, too bad'. Because this was a newly discovered prototype it was automatically assumed that there are no rights extant on the game. That is not necessarily the case -- and any attacks on myself just show how touchy people are.

For the record, I wrote to Jon expressing my views (and explaining my posts on the issue were tongue in cheek) at the outset, so there would be no anxiety or misunderstanding on his part. I'm very much looking forward, one day, to being able to see this game in action once again. Even the pictures on Jon's site brought back details that I had completely forgotten.

Cheers
A

[TheRedEye]

Well right on. I thought you were acting strange.

(do you remember me, by the way? I [tongue-in-cheek] made fun of you and your NES port of The Three Stooges years ago on my website, theredeye.net)

[Andrew Davie]

Well right on. I thought you were acting strange.

(do you remember me, by the way? I [tongue-in-cheek] made fun of you and your NES port of The Three Stooges years ago on my website, theredeye.net)

Yep. Never said I was a fabulous games programmer. Just an old one, now :)
Cheers
A

[TheRedEye]

Actually, now I remember! I said something like "but he programmed Bad Street Brawler, so what does he know?"

Anyway, offer still stands on the cart if you want it.

[Mayhem]

Which, if we go right back to the start of this, it is where my comments were going along...

Legally the cart is Jon's. The program on it, well Andrew wrote it, it depends who owns the rights to it now. Can open, worms everywhere.

Certainly we want it backed up firstly. What happens to the ROM afterwards, well Jon had a plan and I liked the sound of the plan, but if we do anything with the ROM itself, then it is ultimately up to Jon. Needless to say, if it were to be released, I'm sure we'd ask Andrew for permission. Of course posting here that he renounces the copyright helps :)

I've known Jon for a long time, and he doesn't go into these things without thinking it through, so what gets decided on, will be known to all in due course.

[NeoZeedeater]

I suspect Atari technically owns the game content since they bought Melbourne House.

As a big fan of the original(especially the C64 version) I would love to play this NES port/remake.

[Mayhem]

Beam Software weren't part of Melbourne House though, merely a contracter afaik. It's just (obviously) they released most of their games in Australia and abroad.

[GizmoGC]

Is this going to be dumped anytime soon? I'd love to try this!

[Mayhem]

We're sorting out getting it dumped. As Jon has a Mac though, it may well fall to me to do the technical bits. Regarding releasing it, well that's for the future... maybe heh.

[Kitsune Sniper]

Sorry for taking this slightly off-topic, but what the hell happened to Beam Software, anyway? I remember the company making a ton of games early on the SNES' lifespan, but after that, I never heard from them again.

(And about dumping it, I do agree that it should get dumped so the data is not lost due to bitrot, but in the end it's up to the person who owns the cart itself -and- the people who coded the game, if it comes to that, to decide if the binary code is released or not.)

[TheRedEye]

We're sorting out getting it dumped. As Jon has a Mac though, it may well fall to me to do the technical bits. Regarding releasing it, well that's for the future... maybe heh.

Yeah, I have equipment ready to go when you guys are. I've personally met you, so I'd rather you handle my unit than Jon.

[rbudrick]

I completely believe Andrew, but for all you folks who initially didn't believe, he could have easily proven he is the real deal by explaining parts of the game in detail that are not in the pics initially posted. Having intimate knowledge of the programming of the game, he could do that.

Anyway, Andrew, the glitches mentioned in the game....were those in the game when you owned it? Were those just bugs that weren't worked out yet?
I'm glad you're posting here, as you might be the only dude that could clear all that up.

-Rob

[Mayhem]

The glitches we're fairly sure are down to the old "playing an NTSC game on a PAL machine" jig. Needless to say we'll see for sure whenever we try it on an NTSC NES or dump it out (whichever is first).