Politicians need to f*** off.

[diskoboy]

http://xbox360.ign.com/articles/709/709445p1.html

The jist of the article - Now they're going after the kids, themselves. If you live in Minnesota, don't buy an M rated game if you're under 18, unless you wanna pay a fine (I know it's a small one, but it's the principle..).

Too me, thats the equivalent of a 300lb. bodybuilder trying to pick a fight with a 10 year old. Of course, the 10 year old is powerless to do a thing....

I think we gamers need to finally stand up to these politician assholes who like to pick on little kids. The US government is abusing their powers, right and left. And I, for one, as a US citizen of legal voting age, am fed up of it.

There are more important issues out there than a kid buying an adult oriented video game.

[keiblerfan69]

Amen.

I am sick of this crap with games. How about finishing the war we are in? I know that the government has been pissing me off lately and I could easily move to Canada and be just as happy.

[badinsults]

Would you be getting up in arms if instead of "M rated video game" it was "R rated movie"? Really, if it is rated M, it is not appropriate for kids, and if they want it, it should be up to the parents to get it for them.

[s1lence]

This is really getting old and being that I live in Minnesota it pisses me off. So if there a fine if you are underage for games, what about books/porn/movies? Once again you know that the people that are making these bills have never played games, which is just plain stupid. The good news is that if its contested it will probably be another bill that violates 1st amendment rights.

[npward.]

Would you be getting up in arms if instead of "M rated video game" it was "R rated movie"? Really, if it is rated M, it is not appropriate for kids, and if they want it, it should be up to the parents to get it for them.

As sad as it is, he is right. An M rated game is not appropriate for children. If it was, it wouldn't be rated M.

To me though, there shouldn't be a fine. That is a little extreme. Taxing an 11 year old boy or girl sounds like the age old story of the bully stealing a kids lunch money. Why do they do it? Because they can.

Just let me know if we decide to riot. I'm always up for a riot. :roll:

[Push Upstairs]

It's lame really.

It's interesting that they are targeting minors but as much as soccer mom's complain i'm sure they would bitch more if suddenly thier child is fined $25.

Then again, maybe it'll make parents take a more active interest in the games thier kids play.

[Niku-Sama]

m rated game or not, the parenst should be watching out.

i wonder what happens if the kids in question that get the fine cant pay it?

do they go to juvi?

"hey what are you in for"
"oh, i sold drugs to my friends. you?"
"i couldnt pay a fine for a game i bought."
"oh man and i thought i was a bad person"

[Mangar]

Again - Ratings aren't gospel. What's appropriate for say my 8 year old, may or may not be appropriate for your 8 year old. In the end, that's my job and responsibility as a parent to determine this. Which is why nearly every parent i know allows there children to watch "Some" rated R movies, but not all of them.

It's also why every single ban, fine, or limit on speech has been overturned by the courts. Don't even sweat this law. The reason why we have a Constitution is to protect us from holier then thou types who wish to limit your personal freedoms and rights. Be they Right-Wing Religious types or Left-Wing Politically Correct ones. To further quote the article linked....


Nearly every other video game-related bill has been struck down on First Amendment grounds. Representative Johnson commented, "We were trying to pass the narrowest bill possible just to try something different from a constitutional challenge standpoint." He conceded, "There are two potential constitutional problems. One is that we are using the ESRB ratings. I can see a court saying you can't use private industry to create the law, but there's no way around that because everything else anyone has tried has been unsuccessful. The other piece is that so far no court has found a strong enough link (between game violence and youth violence)."


Fining a child 25$ for owning an M-Rated or even an AO Rated game is quite unconstitutional. Especially if the parents bought it for him. Good luck with this law :D

[Gamereviewgod]

Would you be getting up in arms if instead of "M rated video game" it was "R rated movie"? Really, if it is rated M, it is not appropriate for kids, and if they want it, it should be up to the parents to get it for them.


If they had laws preventing them from buying the movies already, possibly not. They don't, and let the MPAA handle it. The ESRB doesn't have that luxury though, and it's hypocritical on the politicians part.

[Trebuken]

It should be the same as cigarettes and alcohol. You need to fine the people who are selling -M- rated games to minors, not the minors themselves.

That's all there is to it.

Later,
Trebuken

[diskoboy]

It should be the same as cigarettes and alcohol. You need to fine the people who are selling -M- rated games to minors, not the minors themselves.

That's all there is to it.

Later,
Trebuken

See... I agree with this method. The people who sell the game to a minor without his parents present should be the ones getting fined. Not the kid. A kid could care less about ratings.

My real concern with this law is how they would enforce it. I'm sure the stores are gonna go around, handing out lists of how many underaged kids they sold M or AO rated games too, that month. And even if they did, thats an invasion of privacy. I'm sorry - I just don't see how enforcing this law is possible? Are they gonna start putting policemen in game stores?

And has anyone else noticed that the Motion Picture industry is starting to gear more violent movies towards teens? I mean, look at all these 'horror' movies that have come out lately... 95% of them are rated PG-13. Back in my day - they were all R. No getting around it. There were a select few that were PG-13 (except for Jaws which is PG)

How many congressmen do you hear bitching about that? They seemed intent on taking down the industry. There is really no other way of looking at it.

[Griking]

If you don't like the new laws then vote the politicians who backed it out of office. If you're too young to vote then you're also too young to play the games in question which is probably why you're so pissed about the law in the first place. Unfortunately kinds don't have the same rights as adults do. Perhaps if you have shitty parents you can convince them to buy all of your drugs, alcohol and "M" rated games for you.

[keiblerfan69]

Its the parents fault for not paying attention. My mom knew what I was playing because she read the box everytime. She still does it to this day.

[Mangar]

It should be the same as cigarettes and alcohol. You need to fine the people who are selling -M- rated games to minors, not the minors themselves.

That's all there is to it.

Later,
Trebuken

See... I agree with this method. The people who sell the game to a minor without his parents present should be the ones getting fined. Not the kid. A kid could care less about ratings.

Once again - It is Unconstitutional to use business/industry created ratings, and make laws based on or enforcing them.

[heybtbm]

It's nice to see the Minnesota legislature has solved every single problem with their state and now has the time to focus on these pressing issues.

Instead of fining kids $25, they should force them to do 100 sit-ups. That way they can battle evil video games and childhood obesity...two birds with one stone!

[Mr.FoodMonster]

Wow. I can understand their want to keep the games out of the hands of kids, even though their parents should be on top of that, but actually CHARGING the kids a fine?!? Thats even more ridiculous.

[s1lence]

It's nice to see the Minnesota legislature has solved every single problem with their state and now has the time to focus on these pressing issues.

Instead of fining kids $25, they should force them to do 100 sit-ups. That way they can battle evil video games and childhood obesity...two birds with one stone!


Yeah, like the other serious issues like new stadiums for the Vikings/Twins/Gophers. LOL

[Push Upstairs]

My real concern with this law is how they would enforce it. I'm sure the stores are gonna go around, handing out lists of how many underaged kids they sold M or AO rated games too, that month. And even if they did, thats an invasion of privacy. I'm sorry - I just don't see how enforcing this law is possible? Are they gonna start putting policemen in game stores?

I wondered that myself. Since most kids would pay for the games with cash as opposed to plastic or check how do you track him/her down?

And what happens if they can't pay the fine? Do you throw them in Juvi?

[Wavelflack]

"There are more important issues out there than a kid buying an adult oriented video game."

And yet here you are making a big deal out of such an issue of minor importance...

[vintagegamecrazy]

Walmart won't sell a R rated movie to a minor already, they should do the same with games. I don't have a problem with the government trying to crack down, they are doing it to protect the young kids. I don't think fining them will solve anything, I don't see how they can track that stuff. Retailers should ask for ID when they sell them. Simple enough!

[shoes23]

I'm all for it! Let them pass the laws and once again the ESA will contest the constitutionality of the law, it will get struck down in courts and raise people's ears even more. In a way I think that this cycle of states passing laws and the ESA challenging them is actually helping the ESA's cause of raising parental awareness.

I'm sorry for those that feel that the goverment shouldn't step into any of this mess, but some parents just aren't responsible or informed enough, and if it takes newspaper headlines and laws for parents to step up and take responsibility into their own hands for what video games their kids play, we are going to see more states trying to regulate it for them.

And for the record, I actively watch what games are being played around my household. Some games that simulate crime, depict graphic and violent scenes, or have strong sexual overtones to them will NOT be played by anyone that is not responible enough to understand that it is a game and the behavior being displayed isn't appropriate in the real world.

As far as the fine goes, consider it the same as paying a fine if you are a minor and get caught smoking or drinking. It isn't going to stop all the problems, but it just may deter a few.

[diskoboy]

"There are more important issues out there than a kid buying an adult oriented video game."

And yet here you are making a big deal out of such an issue of minor importance...

Actually, I'm sick of politicians trying to take down the video game industry, and make themselves out to be 'heroes', all the while.

And I think they need to devote their time to real problems. Iraq, illegal aliens, healthcare, gas supplies and prices, etc...

[cyberfluxor]

"hey what are you in for"
"oh, i sold drugs to my friends. you?"
"i couldnt pay a fine for a game i bought."
"oh man and i thought i was a bad person"

Haha, good one.

Lame, this whole crap is just plain lame. I'd love to see them press charges on me, although I'm over 18, it would be funny. Let me spend money in the way I want. It's on the shelves and if not I'll get it on-line. I'm not about to buy a gun or mix house chemicals and blow shit up, NO. It's a freaking game and I want to play it. I'm responsible when my friends little brothers want to borrow a game from me by not giving them things their parents disagree with. So kiss my ass politics and spit in these idiots faces that believe our society it being ripped apart from games, movies, and tv shows dealing with sex, violence, drugs, and other "negative" influences. This nation and all others must change and will continue to change in their own ways and to ban something because you don't like it, screw you. I don't complain about your ignorant practices and ban your form of entertainment because it doesn't blend with my taste.

[Gamereviewgod]

It should be the same as cigarettes and alcohol. You need to fine the people who are selling -M- rated games to minors, not the minors themselves.

Cigarettes and alcohol kill people. Kids need protected from them.

Video games don't kill people. It's up to the industry and parents to protect kids from them, not the government.

[pragmatic insanester]

i can't take anymore pg-13 horror movies, man. i miss the 80s when people had the balls to make hardcore r-rated films. i doubt we'll ever see anything like Robocop in mainstream theatres anytime soon.

[pragmatic insanester]

although, to be fair - they made the director tone down several death scenes and cut what was filmed so it wouldn't be nc-17.

[Push Upstairs]

And bless DVD for bringing the uncut version back to those of us who love the movie.

I'm sure some shrink would have a field day knowing i saw "Robocop" in its R-rated glory at the tender age of 8. :D

[Trebuken]

It should be the same as cigarettes and alcohol. You need to fine the people who are selling -M- rated games to minors, not the minors themselves.

That's all there is to it.

Later,
Trebuken

See... I agree with this method. The people who sell the game to a minor without his parents present should be the ones getting fined. Not the kid. A kid could care less about ratings.

Once again - It is Unconstitutional to use business/industry created ratings, and make laws based on or enforcing them.

I Suppose. Perhaps a better comparison would be with movies then. The ESRB was created in a similar fashion as the MPAA. Perhaps criminal consequences would be overkill, and maybe you should not fine the individual selling the games but it would not be unconstitutional to fine the company who employs the individual who sells the games.

Everyone is responsible for everyone's children. Anything less is irresponsible.

Later,
Trebuken

[Trebuken]

It should be the same as cigarettes and alcohol. You need to fine the people who are selling -M- rated games to minors, not the minors themselves.

That's all there is to it.

Later,
Trebuken

See... I agree with this method. The people who sell the game to a minor without his parents present should be the ones getting fined. Not the kid. A kid could care less about ratings.

Once again - It is Unconstitutional to use business/industry created ratings, and make laws based on or enforcing them.

I Suppose. Perhaps a better comparison would be with movies then. The ESRB was created in a similar fashion as the MPAA. Perhaps criminal consequences would be overkill, and maybe you should not fine the individual selling the games but it would not be unconstitutional to fine the company who employs the individual who sells the games.

Everyone is responsible for everyone's children. Anything less is irresponsible.

Later,
Trebuken

[Trebuken]

It should be the same as cigarettes and alcohol. You need to fine the people who are selling -M- rated games to minors, not the minors themselves.

That's all there is to it.

Later,
Trebuken

See... I agree with this method. The people who sell the game to a minor without his parents present should be the ones getting fined. Not the kid. A kid could care less about ratings.

Once again - It is Unconstitutional to use business/industry created ratings, and make laws based on or enforcing them.

I Suppose. Perhaps a better comparison would be with movies then. The ESRB was created in a similar fashion as the MPAA. Perhaps criminal consequences would be overkill, and maybe you should not fine the individual selling the games but it would not be unconstitutional to fine the company who employs the individual who sells the games.

Everyone is responsible for everyone's children. Anything less is irresponsible.

Later,
Trebuken

[Trebuken]

It should be the same as cigarettes and alcohol. You need to fine the people who are selling -M- rated games to minors, not the minors themselves.

That's all there is to it.

Later,
Trebuken

See... I agree with this method. The people who sell the game to a minor without his parents present should be the ones getting fined. Not the kid. A kid could care less about ratings.

Once again - It is Unconstitutional to use business/industry created ratings, and make laws based on or enforcing them.

I Suppose. Perhaps a better comparison would be with movies then. The ESRB was created in a similar fashion as the MPAA. Perhaps criminal consequences would be overkill, and maybe you should not fine the individual selling the games but it would not be unconstitutional to fine the company who employs the individual who sells the games.

Everyone is responsible for everyone's children. Anything less is irresponsible.

Later,
Trebuken

[Mangar]

The ESRB was created in a similar fashion as the MPAA. Perhaps criminal consequences would be overkill, and maybe you should not fine the individual selling the games but it would not be unconstitutional to fine the company who employs the individual who sells the games.

Actually - It still would still be unconstitutional, since you are using industry created "ratings" as the basis of the fines. Any way you slice it, there is nothing at all the Government can do. At least from a legal standpoint.



Everyone is responsible for everyone's children. Anything less is irresponsible.

This is a ridiculous statement. :)

[Trebuken]

The ESRB was created in a similar fashion as the MPAA. Perhaps criminal consequences would be overkill, and maybe you should not fine the individual selling the games but it would not be unconstitutional to fine the company who employs the individual who sells the games.

Actually - It still would still be unconstitutional, since you are using industry created "ratings" as the basis of the fines. Any way you slice it, there is nothing at all the Government can do. At least from a legal standpoint.



Everyone is responsible for everyone's children. Anything less is irresponsible.

This is a ridiculous statement. :)

The MPAA was created by the movie industry and actions can be taken against individuals allowing minors into a movie as well as against the theatre itself. The ESRB is a model of the MPAA.

I am not a constitutional scholar but you are clearly even more clueless. The constitution is about personal protections, not about prrotect business from taking advantage of children. There is nothing unconstitutional about it; besides local legislation would likely need to be put into place to back it, oh yeah that's about what the thread is about.

Your ignorance becomes more obvious by declaring my final statement ridiculous. It may have been over the top, but you are pathetic if you do not think you have any responsibility to the youth of this country.

Your obviously trying to be argumentative, so keep it up...you got nothing...

Later,
Trebuken

[Trebuken]

....

[Trebuken]

Double post...server lag.

[Trebuken]

Triple POst even.

[Frankie23]

Trebuken, I presume the quadruple replies are an accident of some sort?

For those who suggested that you like seeing these laws get presented, so the ESA may smash them down; wouldn't you rather your tax dollars were spent on something more useful? Like, say healthcare, or bolstering your educational system?

Yes, I know the question is pretty much rhetorical, but I felt it needed to be asked.

[Mangar]

The MPAA was created by the movie industry and actions can be taken against individuals allowing minors into a movie as well as against the theatre itself.

No they cannot. Directly from a link on the MPAA's own website....


Is the rating system a law?

No, the rating system is strictly voluntary and carries no force of law.

Do all movies have to be rated?

No. Submitting a film is purely a voluntary decision made by the filmmakers. However, the overwhelming majority of the producers creating entertaining, responsible films do in fact submit their films for ratings. All five Classification and Rating Administration rating symbols have been trademarked and may not be self-applied

Who enforces the ratings?

While the decision to enforce the rating system is purely voluntary, the National Association of Theatre Owners estimate that the majority of theaters observe the Classification and Rating Administration's guidelines. Greater Detail

Bottom Line: The MPAA ratings system carries no force of law whatsoever. It's a voluntary system, and always has been.


I am not a constitutional scholar

Obviously



The constitution is about personal protections, not about prrotect business from taking advantage of children.

It's about personal freedom actually. It's there to protect the people from the hand of Government. Somehow i don't think that Mortal Kombat is "taking advantage of children." but hey - Luckily i have the force of our Constitution to protect me from those who do.


There is nothing unconstitutional about it; besides local legislation would likely need to be put into place to back it, oh yeah that's about what the thread is about.

Once again, and please read this part very slowly. It is Unconstitutional to create or write laws enforcing industry or business created ratings. Don't take my word for it. Just do a search, and look at the dozens of laws which were already found unconstitutional based on this and 1st Amendment rights. Hell, even the guy who proposed the bill which this entire thread is based on concedes this point. He is quoted as saying that the entire bill is his way of "Trying to find a way around this."


but you are pathetic if you do not think you have any responsibility to the youth of this country.

No. I'm realistic. I don't, nor does anyone else. This don't mean that i act in an irresponsible manner, nor do i go out of my way to harm anyone. But just because someone decides to pop out kids, don't mean that the entire world, there next-door neighbor, mailman, and the guy changing urinal cakes at the public restroom in the local Wal-Mart is responsible for them.



Your obviously trying to be argumentative, so keep it up...you got nothing...

Actually - I'm just trying to stop the spread of misinformation regarding the subject. You see - Just because you personally think that that MPAA has the power to write law, don't mean that they do. Also you thinking that Government has the power to fine retailers, parents, children, or anyone else - Based on an arbitrary ratings system which was written by unelected Businessmen in some corporate boardroom, also don't mean that they do. There is a huge and vast difference between what you THINK is law, or what should be law - Then what actually is.

What i "Got" - Is roughly 15+ years of Videogame Censorship related bills being overturned by various courts for Constitutional reasons. What you got is a personal opinion on how things "Should be." Not how things are.

[Trebuken]

Well that was a good response. (Sorry for the quadruple post...lag of some sort).

I was no way suggesting that the MPAA pr ESRB should be making law. I am stating that media can be regulated constitutionally to protect minors from material that is generally thought to be inappropriate to them. Alcohol, tobacco, cannot be perchased by a minor legally, and criminal consequences can be taken against those proving it.

Of course alcohol and tobacco are regulated by the state, presumably more legitimate than the ESRB and MPAA. The deliemma is that video games are not regulated at the state level, nor so I believe we should waste tax dollars on such a thing. This is where the ESRB, a self-regulatory agency, comes into play. We can speculate as to their legitimacy, but I suggest that their rating system has become trusted as has the MPAA ratings (though the debate as to what PG-13 really means continues). All this tells us is that there is material not suitable for a minor, and that legislation could/should be in place to protect minors, since 'realistically' no one is responsible for others children.

The stock-exchange is self-regulatory and of course there are plenty of criminal consequences in that mess. It is within the governments and constittuions authority to legitmate the MPAA or ESRB if consumer demand demands it. Do a search...

The MPAA has not be legitimated and it seems unlikely the ESRB ever will be but that's why Lieberman and friends need to back off...

Later,
Trebuken

[Frankie23]

Of course alcohol and tobacco are regulated by the state, presumably more legitimate than the ESRB and MPAA.

Whenever people talk about this subject, I always here the "alcohol and cigarettes" thing brought up. The difference, of course, is that those things are obviously not forms of speech, and thus aren't protected under the First Amendment.

[Trebuken]

Of course alcohol and tobacco are regulated by the state, presumably more legitimate than the ESRB and MPAA.

Whenever people talk about this subject, I always here the "alcohol and cigarettes" thing brought up. The difference, of course, is that those things are obviously not forms of speech, and thus aren't protected under the First Amendment.

So your saying Video Games are a form of speech?

[googlefest1]

just picture a cops episode where they are chasing down a kid that purchased a M rated game

or one of those sting operation shows
"we know this kid here buys illegal games once a month {shows kid walking on side walk}. We are getting ready to take him down"

[rbudrick]

It should be the same as cigarettes and alcohol. You need to fine the people who are selling -M- rated games to minors, not the minors themselves.

That's all there is to it.

Later,
Trebuken

They don't fine minors for having cigarettes and alcohol? Man, I wish I grew up in your state.

When they start fining kids for going to R movies, then they can start on games.

I can't wait for the day that every possible anti-game bill is struck down. The politicains will then have to find a new scapegoat, since they will have run out of legal leverage with the games industry.

-Rob

[diskoboy]

I'm bumping this topic because NC and a few other states are now debating giving tax breaks for developers to move to their states.

http://xbox360.ign.com/articles/710/710542p1.html

The politicians hate video games, yet they sure do want that green ($$$$) pouring out of the entire industry..

Can we say "hypocrites"?