Finally got my SuperGrafx working in RGB! check out pics

[Anthony1]

Man, this took a long freaking time. It's so funny, because all this time I was sitting on a cable that would work with the SuperGrafx in RGB and I didn't even know it. It's been a long time since I actually bought this SG from DP member FABombjoy, and the whole time I bought the thing knowing that I wanted to play it in RGB, and I wouldn't play it at all, until I got it working in RGB.


At first, I had FABombjoy keep the SuperGrafx and try to mod it himself, so that it would work in RGB via my Commodore 1084S-D1 monitor. FABombjoy unfortunately couldn't get ahold of a 1084 monitor to test it on. So after quite some time, I just had him ship my stuff directly to D-Lite. D-Lite was going to mod it, but I wanted him to do a cheapo mod, because I had my own aplification box, and to make a long story short, D-Lite thought that I might be able to use a cable that I already had. You see, I had never seen any SuperGrafx system, so I had no idea what kind of connector was on the back. I had no idea that the connector on the back is very similar to the one on a TG-16. So D-Lite thought I should try using my special TG-16 cable with it. I received the package from D-Lite, and I immediately open the thing up and try to use my specialized TG-16 cable with it. One problem. It didn't fit. Even worse, because I was a total dumbass and forced the thing in, I messed up some of the little pins on the back of the SuperGrafx connector. Luckily, I was able to carefully get the pins back in place.


So at this point, I'm not sure what the heck to do. I bought this thing a long, long time ago, and I finally have it at my house, but I don't want to play it till I get it working in RGB. I don't want to spoil my first experience with it. So I email the dude that made my specialized TG-16 cable, and told him that I couldn't fit it, and he said to get a large file from a hobby store, and to file down the sides of the TG-16 cable, so that it would fit in the SG. Well, today I took that cable to a hobby shop and was going to buy a file, and the dude at the hobby shop took it and filed it down with his electric filing thing. He did it absolutely perfect and didn't charge me a penny. So I took it home, and just a few hours ago actually got to try it out. IT WORKED!!! YES!!! So I finally get to fire up the SuperGrafx for the very first time. I only have two games, Daimakaimura (Ghouls n Ghosts) and Battle Ace.

Here are some samples of it running in RGB on my Commodore 1084S-D1. My digital camera is total crap and the pics are quite blurry, but trust me, it looks absolutely sweet!


http://i58.photobucket.com/albums/g257/Anthony1fromDP/Picture049.jpg


http://i58.photobucket.com/albums/g257/Anthony1fromDP/Picture057.jpg

http://i58.photobucket.com/albums/g257/Anthony1fromDP/Picture060.jpg

http://i58.photobucket.com/albums/g257/Anthony1fromDP/Picture068.jpg

http://i58.photobucket.com/albums/g257/Anthony1fromDP/Picture071.jpg

http://i58.photobucket.com/albums/g257/Anthony1fromDP/Picture073.jpg

[Tron 2.0]

Congrats looks sweet in RBG 8-)

[Ed Oscuro]

It's a marvel of irrelevance! The six* game console united with unnecessary clarity of vision! :D

*yes, I'm aware. Thank you, drive through

[rbudrick]

The pics, I'm sure, don't do it justice...note Arthur's gold armor and the slight blurring. Congrats, man! Wish I could see it for real.

-Rob

[mills]

Looks amazing! Fantastic job!

[Ed Oscuro]

The pics, I'm sure, don't do it justice...note Arthur's gold armor and the slight blurring.
In the last pic, anyway. The skulls seem to be washed-out there a bit as well. The closeup seems to be accurate. It does look pretty good, certainly.

Maybe Anthony1 can start selling video mods? I'm sure a number of people would be interested.

[c0ldb33r]

I'd love to see it in person! Good job :)

[Arasoi]

A most impressive looking mod.

Congrats!

[milhouseOFpain]

oooohhhhhh aaahhhhhh, congrats

[Anthony1]

The pics, I'm sure, don't do it justice...note Arthur's gold armor and the slight blurring. Congrats, man! Wish I could see it for real.

-Rob


Yeah the pics look like absolute ass compared to the real deal. Looking at these pics, the picture appears to be blooming with too much contrast and oversaturation, but the real picture quality has none of that. It looks absolutely flawless, although I must admit that I'm slightly underwhelmed by these two games for the SuperGrafx. I know it's just a 8 bit system on some super high grade horse steroids, but still. Certainly Ghouls N Ghosts is a fantastic arcade conversion, but it's not exactly the most impressive thing I've ever seen on a RGB monitor. I'm just excited that I actually got the damn thing working.

[rbudrick]

Yeah the pics look like absolute ass compared to the real deal. Looking at these pics, the picture appears to be blooming with too much contrast and oversaturation, but the real picture quality has none of that. It looks absolutely flawless, although I must admit that I'm slightly underwhelmed by these two games for the SuperGrafx. I know it's just a 8 bit system on some super high grade horse steroids, but still. Certainly Ghouls N Ghosts is a fantastic arcade conversion, but it's not exactly the most impressive thing I've ever seen on a RGB monitor. I'm just excited that I actually got the damn thing working.

Yeah, the SFG is really only good for 5 (or 7, depending on how you look at it) extra games. You need a SFG and a Duo + arcade card, to play the whole Grafx library. Some may say the SFG isn't worth buying for that small amount of extra games for their library, but the SFG looks so cool, heh heh.


Do yourself a nice favor. Play your old school games in RGB. The developers programmed them in RGB, you might as well see what they actually put on their canvas. Games are Art. View them as such. Good Day, Sir. I SAID GOOD DAY!

Many programmers actually programmed their games with the notion that they will be played on a regular TV, and took this into consideration when drawing the sprites, etc. out to take advantage as best they could of certain drawbacks of regular TVs. Some things they knew would look completely different on a regular TV, so they would often draw things to compensate for the signal loss, over saturation, etc. So, your quote isn't completely true, but does go for a lot of (probably most) games.

That reminds me of kind of a similar situation. I remember there were some games on the Gamer Gear (which was basically a SuperGrafx Master System, lol) that took advantage of the blurring nature of LCDs (pixels take longer to "turn off" than on CRTs)...you can't even see certain elements of a couple games when you rig a GG to a TV, though that's a little more of an extreme version of what I was talking about above.

-Rob

[rhiohki]

Anthony1,

Just wondering where you got your "specialized" TG16/Supergraphx cable. I know I Pmed out about this a long time back and I think you mentioned some guy who lived in Canada.

If you know of a place where to get a cable, I'm sure a lot of people would be interested.

[Anthony1]

Anthony1,

Just wondering where you got your "specialized" TG16/Supergraphx cable. I know I Pmed out about this a long time back and I think you mentioned some guy who lived in Canada.

If you know of a place where to get a cable, I'm sure a lot of people would be interested.


The guy that did the cable for me, I'm not sure he really wants to be making cables for anybody. I could contact him about it and find out. I'm afraid he would probably get pissed at me, because lots of people would be contacting him. He has a full time job, and making these kinds of cables and his little rgb box that he uses with it, takes time. But who knows? Maybe he will want to do it. What he did for me, was he built this special RGB box. Inside this RGB box are signal boosters and stuff like that, because the TG-16's rgb signal (as well as the SG) and the Nintendo 64's rgb signal, are very weak signals and they need to be amplified. So he put that stuff in this box, and then all the rgb cables run into this box and can use the amplification. It was mainly done for TG-16 and N64 though.


Here is a pic of the original cable he made for my TG-16. I had to alter it slightly, for it to fit inside the SuperGrafx's connector, but it should work with both the SG and TG-16 now. Although it might be a little loose on the back of the TG-16.

http://i58.photobucket.com/albums/g257/Anthony1fromDP/DCP_3005.jpg


The cool thing about his TG-16 rgb cable, is that you don't need to send your TG-16 away to get modded internally. He actually made a plug that fits that back connector just right. Man, if he could mass produce those, he could make some good coin on Ebay for them. I'm sure people in Japan would want them as well. To be honest though, if you ever plan on using a TG-16 CD attachment, you can't use that cable, because that is where the docking station goes. So if you are using a CD player, you have to do an internal mod on the side of the TG-16 unit, so that when connected to the docking station, you can still get the video from that plug.



Here are some pics of the RGB box that he made. This first pic shows that one side has a male (DB9) input which accepts a female DB9 connector from a custom rgb cable.


http://i58.photobucket.com/albums/g257/Anthony1fromDP/DCP_3006.jpg



This pic shows the specialized TG-16 rgb cable hooked into the input of the rgb box.



http://i58.photobucket.com/albums/g257/Anthony1fromDP/DCP_3007.jpg



This last pic shows the other side of the rgb box where the outputs include a red and white audio connector (although impossible to see which is red and which is white) , as well as a male DB9 output to connect to a Commodore 1084S monitor, and also a female 15 pin output for a NEC Multisync rgb monitor.




http://i58.photobucket.com/albums/g257/Anthony1fromDP/DCP_3008.jpg

[evil_genius]

anthony loves RGB

[Anthony1]

anthony loves RGB



true dat.

[Ed Oscuro]

Anthony, just ask the guy, it won't hurt :D

[MarioMania]

I have a Component TV..Can he mod a SNES RGB cable for Component

[Trebuken]

Is your Super Grafx region modded? Can you compare games through a Turbo Grafx or Duo via RGB to games played through a Super Grafx via RGB (not Super Grafx games)? Same differece? Does the Super Grafx superior hardware matter?

Do you have a Super CDROM2? Wonder if that does RGB?

Good stuff...

Later,
Trebuken

[Anthony1]

Is your Super Grafx region modded? Can you compare games through a Turbo Grafx or Duo via RGB to games played through a Super Grafx via RGB (not Super Grafx games)? Same differece? Does the Super Grafx superior hardware matter?

Do you have a Super CDROM2? Wonder if that does RGB?

Good stuff...

Later,
Trebuken


1. no my SG isn't region modded. I only play SG games on it, or PC Engine Hu cards

2. PC Engine Hu cards work in rgb on the SG just fine, appears to be identical to a PC Engine with rgb output

3. I don't have a Super CDROM2, but I'm sure it can do rgb.

4. The hardware of the SG shouldn't matter, it's fully backwards compatible with PC Engine Hu cards and CD software, at least I think it is.



I really think the best way to do it, is to get a regular USA TG-16, then get the TG-16 region modded with a little button on the front. Well worth it, considering the cost of those adapters. While you are getting the region mod, get a RGB mod done to the side of your TG-16 unit. The key factor is that you need the mod done on the side of the TG-16 unit, so that when you connect it to the docking station for the CD attatchment, you can still use the RGB output. Then, when you add the CD attatchment later on down the line, you can play all your CD games in RGB. I really think this is the least expensive way to go. Sure, you can get a TurboDuo and get it modded for rgb and a region mod, etc, etc, but that shit is damn expensive, plus alot of TurboDuo's have trouble with backups, so if you want to play some of the more expensive PC Engine CD based games, you are at the mercy of the Ebay profiteers.


Here is a step by step guide:


1. Buy a U.S. TG-16
2. Find somebody that can do a region mod and a "side" rgb mod for a decent price. (Decent price would be like $40 for region mod and $30 for rgb mod)
3. Ship it to that dude so he can do the region mod and rgb mod.
4. When you get it back, you can now play both U.S. and Japanese Hu cards, and more importantly, if you ever get a CD unit, you can also use an Arcade Card Pro, which can be found much cheaper, and play all your CD based games in RGB too!
5. When you end up getting a CD unit, don't bother getting a 3.0 card, get the Arcade Card Pro. They are usually quite a bit cheaper and allow you to play the Arcade CD games.
6. enjoy


This is the exact setup that I have, and I think it's the best way to go. It's definitely the least expensive route. And again, if you ever plan to play backups on it, the CD attatchment works better with backups than Duo's.


As for the SuperGrafx, I'm basically doing a "long term rental" with that. What I mean by a "long term rental" is that I bought a SG and some games, and I'll acquire some more games, but I'm not planning on keeping it long term. I basically just want to experience what the SG has to offer, check it out, play some of the games for awhile, and then later on, like 6 months from now, or a year from now, I'll sell it to somebody else. I try to buy all my items for the cheapest possible price, so that when it comes time to resell it, I don't end up losing alot of money on the deal. The small amount of money that I do lose, is my long term rental fee. One of the main reasons I wanted to try the SuperGrafx, was because of a very small article in an issue of Play Magazine where Dave Halverson was talking about Granzort, and how fond of Granzort he was. So I really wanted to get one, just to try that one game, if you can believe it. Of course, I'm going to try a few other games too.

[Trebuken]

Thanks for the info. My Duo has no problems playing most backups, the ones I do have trouble with I assume were created wrong by me, tough to tell...

I do not have any PC Engine games, and my TG is not region modded so I was just curious about Super Grafx abilities compared to the TG. I know it is backwards compatible but it also has a superior processor, some have said many games experience less slowdown, so I just thought that perhaps the graphics may be affected somewhat as well...no matter, probably not much if any difference.

Later,
Trebuken

[Anthony1]

some have said many games experience less slowdown, so I just thought that perhaps the graphics may be affected somewhat as well




Hmm, that's interesting. I've never heard this. If certain games do run with less slowdown, I would be interested in trying that, to check it out. But so far, I really haven't played too many PC Engine Hu cards on it, maybe I should try more. If any games are supposed to run much faster I would love to know which game, I would love to try that out and see if it's true.

[Trebuken]

Afetr trying to research my statements I cam up with next to nothing. I can say that it has the same processor, what makes it superior is a higher resolution (for all games or just SGX games?), and it has dual GPU's as opposed to the PC Engine. It's possible that the slowdown issue refers to only the Darius games which were playable on buthe systems but were superior on on the SGX...all I could learn but I am sure I have read about the slowdown.

I did read that some believe that the SGX plus Super CD-Rom2 with an Arcade Card and region mod (throw in your RGB mod) is the best possible PC Engine/TG-16 seup, but there is debate on it...

Later,
Trebuken

[CosmicMonkey]

I did read that some believe that the SGX plus Super CD-Rom2 with an Arcade Card and region mod (throw in your RGB mod) is the best possible PC Engine/TG-16 seup, but there is debate on it...

Well either that, or a LaserActive with the PC Engine unit, Arcade card & region mod/TG-16 unit. Not sure if it's possible to mod for RGB, but it does do S-Vid.

Either way no single PCE set-up can play all games. It's a choice between SuperGrafx games or Super LD-Roms.

Unless someone manages to interface a SGX with a Laseractive. Now that would be an impressive mod!

[DeputyMoniker]

Who would know how to do this kind of work? An electrical engineer?

[RARusk]

Not necessarily an engineer but somebody who shares the same RGB Analog vision and has enough technical knowledge to get what he wants.

Anthony's RGB box contains two chips:

The first one is a CXA1145 RGB encoder chip taken from a Sega Genesis. One nice thing about this chip is that it also amplifies the video signal, in addition to creating Composite Video, and it is the best amplifier I have ever found. The chip is specially wired to use as an amplifier and it works great. However, in hindsight, I have found, in the three years since I built that for him, is that only the TG-16, SuperGrafx, and N64 are the only consoles I have identified that require an amplifier (the PS2 counts too but only if you take the RGB signals off of the motherboard near the graphics chip - I have a wiki page at GamesX.com that explains things).

The second chip is a EL4583 sync separation chip which acquires the sync signals needed for RGB Analog video from Composite Video. This chip outputs all three sync channels (Composite Sync, Horizontal Sync, and Vertical Sync) and routes them to the appropriate plugs. The Composite Sync goes to the 9-pin plug and the other two go to the 15-pin plug. It gives the owner of the box the best of both worlds. The TG-16, SuperGrafx, and the PlayStation units require a sync chip but I made it for use with everything since it made for simpler design.

The TG-16/SuperGrafx plug uses a NuBus style plug (like the one the old Macs used on their motherboards). There was an electronics shop here in San Antonio (which, sadly, is no longer around) that sold overstock and they had some of these parts. When properly cut down they would fit the pin design in the back of the TG-16 unit. I added angled plastic pieces on the sides so it would fit one way. As it turns out, my choice of parts was rather fortunate. This plug would indeed fit the SuperGrafx in addition to the TG-16 but the angled plastic needed to be removed. And judging from this topic it looks like he managed to get the job done. No surprise that the SuperGrafx looks as good as the TG-16.

My own RGB box has just a EL1883 sync chip (a superior version of the 4583) and I use it exclusively with my NEC MultiSync 3D monitor (one of the few monitors that can do 480i and 480p RGB Analog).

When I am not working I either am playing new games or writing guides and FAQs for GameFAQs (my latest work is a guide for "Grand Theft Auto: Liberty City Stories (PS2)) and I haven't been much into the hacking mood lately. However, I did just complete one mod I was meaning to do after doing my LCS guide and it can be found here:

http://www.atariage.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=91059&st=0&gopid=1107466&#entry1107466

It is a modification to my newly acquired Atari Jaguar (which replaces a dead one) that replaces the RF modulator wit a PlayStation AV plug so I can use the more commonly found PS2 AV cables plus my own custom built PS2 RGB cable.

[Anthony1]

Robert, cool to see you posting on the DP boards!! There is lots of cool retro discussion on here, I'm sure you'll like it. Now I must say to all the DP members that are thinking about sending Robert a PM for him to make you a rgb cable or something like that, that Mr. Rusk isn't really in the business of making cables for sale to the general public. He has done me some very special favors, and I'm tremendously gratefull for all his help over the years. It's possible, that he might make somebody a cable or something, but you guys just need to understand that it's a side thing for him, and if he can make you a cable, it will have to be on his spare time when he can actually get around to it. So just understand that he isn't a RGB guy for hire, like Matthew was, before he retired. So please don't barrage the guy with rgb cable requests.

I have spoke of Mr. Rusk's handiwork many times on these boards without mentioning his name, the main reason, being that I was concerned that somebody would track him down at gamesx or something, and they would contact him about making a cable for them. I just didn't want to get the guy pissed off at me, if all of a sudden, tons of people are PM'ing him at various message boards asking for him to build them this "rgb box" thing that Anthony1 has talked about.


I can't speak for Robert, as to whether he could build anybody a cable or anything, who knows, maybe he will open up shop and start making cables full time, but I'm pretty sure dude has a career and doesn't really have the kind of time to do that. But who knows? maybe he does. I'm sure Robert will speak to that himself, but I'm just hoping that he doesn't have like 20 PM's waiting in his message box right now LOL


Robert, I just would like to thank you again for all your help on the stuff that you've done for me, and say that I really appreciate all your troubles. You truly are a wizard when it comes to rgb and mods, and one day I hope to thank you in person. Maybe at some kind of classic gaming expo or something!

[RARusk]

I would like to go to CGE or E3 once in my lifetime. Maybe if I win the lottery or something.....

As for the monitor picture request you mailed me about, all you need to do is look on the lower left corner of the screen where it should clearly say "NEC/MultiSync 3D". If the monitor at the thrift shop you mentioned has this name, GET IT! You won't be disappointed (although the monitor is a bit on the small side).

This monitor works great for 15Khz use and does an equally great job at 31Khz. A couple of issues though:

First off, it takes a few minutes to completely brighten up but once the brightness is properly adjusted it looks great.

Second, the unit uses digital controls for screen size adjustment. For the most part it is no problem. However, as far as horizontal width, you may run into a problem when using Progressive Scan consoles. On the DreamCast I would lose roughly a quarter of inch of screen space on each side because the monitor can't expand any further. On some PS2 games (by the way, the monitor is Sync-On-Green capable so this is perfect for PS2 Progressive Scan) I lose about half an inch to each side (although on Progressive Scan Component Video experimentation with DVDs I actually have to shrink the horizontal width. Odd). But on the PS2 version of "Hitman: Blood Money", because of how the programmers used the Progressive Scan feature, I lose an INCH AND A HALF per side. That's three inches of screen space! Either I have to find a way of stretching the horizontal scan or hack the damn monitor and install a analog contol of some kind. For 15Khz usage I haven't had any problems.

By the way Anthony, did you ever find the DB-15 to (5) BNC monitor cable I suggested for your new monitor?

[Anthony1]

By the way Anthony, did you ever find the DB-15 to (5) BNC monitor cable I suggested for your new monitor?



I actually have a cable like that already, that I'm using with this Princeton Graphics HDTV monitor. It's got a VGA style plug on one side, and 5 BNC on the other. That is essentially a DB-15 to (5) BNC right? I just need to disconnect it from this RCA DTC-100 HDTV box that is hooked up to that Princeton. I haven't had a chance to get back there and disconnect a bunch of stuff, but I will try that soon.

[RARusk]

Yep, that's the one.

[Ze_ro]

Anthony's RGB box contains two chips:

The first one is a CXA1145 RGB encoder...
The second chip is a EL4583 sync separation chip...
I'm a little confused about this RGB box... Since the amplification and sync seperation aren't necessary for most systems, do you just plug the rest of your systems straight into the monitor, is there some kind to turn the box off, or do you just use it anyways?

--Zero

[RARusk]

The box was designed to be "plug and play" where you plug in the RGB cable, monitor, and sound and just start using.

I felt it would overly complicate things if I put in switches and the like. As I mentioned earlier, these days I would put the amplifier in the console unit that needed it and leave the sync chip in the external box. But as it stands, having the amplifier in the box doesn't seem to bother Anthony (otherwise I would hear about it).

Although only a few consoles need the sync chip I found that it would be better to use the chip on all consoles. With the chip I have control of getting the sync plus the sync seems to more stable. My MultiSync monitor prefers separate sync and not all consoles provide it. My EL1883 chip gets the signals I need from Composite Video. Ditto for the EL4583 that is in Anthony's box.

[Anthony1]

Robert, you know one thing that I've wondered about, is if the amplification chip that is in there, is the best N64 amplification chip that one can use. Reason being, the Blurry 64 looks pretty crappy in RGB. I've always thought that this was a case of the N64 just having crappy RGB and there not being anything that one can really do about it, but awhile back I was bumping around the gamesx forums, and I thought I saw a thread where some guys where discussing better amplification chips for the N64's weak RGB signal.

The box that you made works absolutely great with the tg-16 and SuperGrafx in terms of amplification, so I'm thinking the chip that is in there is fine for the N64, but I was kinda curious as to whether or not there is a much improved amplification chip out there, that seems to really boost the contrast of the N64 considerably? Like maybe these guys have discovered a particular chip that works really good with the weak N64 signal. Maybe not. The N64 doesn't look horrible in rgb, but the contrast does seem to be pretty weak. The brightness isn't super high either, it's just kinda a dull rgb signal. Hard to describe. Of course the Blurry 64, being a Blurry 64 isn't going to provide any high contrast, crystal clear picture no matter what you do to it, but since this box was made several years back, I was just wondering if people have found a better solution for adding contrast to the N64 rgb signal.

[RARusk]

The graphics on many N64 games were not made well and you are not going to get a whole lot of improvement even in RGB. There are some games, such as "Turok 2: Seeds Of Evil" (in high-res mode) that look very good in RGB.